cpsro said:It's common for the eyes to remain open at death. If they're closed, they can easily be re-opened and may stay that way on their own, at least if rigor mortis hasn't yet set in.
Well, if they need blood flow in the eye, open eyes won't be enough. Attention may be more than just eyes open.
If you got to worry about people shooting you to get your phone, instead of stealing it from you, then I'm guessing you have way more to worry about than me.
You neglected the scenario in which someone shoots you not just to possess your phone but to access it's full functionality. (Hey, another definition of body hacking!) Apple hasn't advertised retinal blood flow as being required. Our discussion here is all academic/entertainment, though, isn't it? Isn't it?
If they person is that desperate to unlock your phone then they will simply force you to unlock it first, then shoot you.
So whatever security you have set up is pretty much bypassed as soon as they pull a gun.
Don't be so sure they'll unlock it just because you point a gun. People aren't that predictable. And if you're too slow to shoot, you risk their clicking the sleep/wake button 5 times first, which inactivates Face ID. In fact, they might have already done that before you brandished the penis proxy, in which case you killed them for nothing.
What's to prevent say Chinese government from forcing you to face ID authenticate to look at your phone contents, for instance during a business or pleasure trip there?
You don't have to look as far as China. In America, border security staff already have the power to insist that foreign visitors must unlock their smartphones and hand them over in that unlocked mode for inspection. If you refuse, you may be barred from entry.
What's to prevent say Chinese government from forcing you to face ID authenticate to look at your phone contents, for instance during a business or pleasure trip there?
Where face ID fails is intent. Does the user have the intent to unlock by their desire to do so? i.e. free will
This irony of this is that it is far more likely the US government would be attempting to do this for visitors to the US
Can they unlock it? I think back 35 years ago to what a security expert told me: "If they want in badly enough they will get in. Security lies in making it hard enough that they go elsewhere"
All we need is a brave Security Expert to sacrifice for the greater good by giving up their life and seeing if their lifeless body can pass a Touch ID or Face ID test. Any takers?
All we need is a brave Security Expert to sacrifice for the greater good by giving up their life and seeing if their lifeless body can pass a Touch ID or Face ID test. Any takers?
You're going to feel bad when some teenaged YouTuber does exactly this--for the likes.
I can't believe all the experts here missed the obvious option: slice off the skin of the finger, put it on your finger, and it will probably/maybe pass TouchID. And--bonus!--you get multiple tries if the dead guy enrolled multiple fingers!
You can even test this without killing someone--if someone is willing to lose a fingertip (or you're a psycho).
The thing that bothers me is ive yet to see any indication of useful information coming from any phone. It is almost like the FBI is making a mountain out of a mole hill here. If they want to know whom you have been calling all they need to do is contact the phone company for your records.
They can miss a whole lot of info if the only data gleaned is who/numbers that you have been in contact with using your cell phone carrier. Apart from the potential mountain of data that can be on an iPhone (pictures, geodata, browser history, notes, general app data, contact list, emails, texts, videos, receipts of Catcher In The Rye purchases, etc.), there are a LOT of other ways to do communications similar to phone calls that your carrier would have no data on -- Facetime calls, Skype calls, VOIP calls, Facebook calls, the list goes on.
But yes, most instances where law enforcement tries or is even successful in obtaining data from phones gets them nothing useful. Once in a rare while they do get publicity about nabbing drug dealers or good evidence from info scoured from someone's phone. Here's one case where it worked: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38183819
All we need is a brave Security Expert to sacrifice for the greater good by giving up their life and seeing if their lifeless body can pass a Touch ID or Face ID test. Any takers?
Don’t need to do that.
Its a fake dispute, because the experts are talking about difference of nuanced technical details.
What Precise Biometrics said is true - THEIR fingerprint sensors do liveness detection (eg shining IR or green light through the finger to pick up the pulse at the point of reading, or using essentially an ECG like sensor to do the same thing). Just because their sensors do it, does not mean TouchID does.
In fact, TouchID does not. Apple has avoided documenting the nuance, but every single demonstrated copied finger spoof of TouchID hack has had no element to it that does any kind of faking out for liveness detection. They all just:
- are a 3D model built from an actual print - have conductivity & capacitance similar to skin
Conductivity and capacitance will change after death as a body decomposes , but for the kinds of timeframes in this discussion - the finger does not need to have a pulse or be warm, or attached. It just triggers the read process , and the image that is analyzed is not the surface fingerprint, it’s reading a sub-dermal image into the structure pressed up against it. That does not require life as well.
You can train TouchID to trigger off one of those nubby styluses made for capacitive touchscreens as a “fingerprint” just fine, and it’s certainly not alive. I had gloves with the TouchTec treatment I used in Canada in the winter, and a finger on those gloves would unlock my device. The glove was not alive either.
cpsro said:It's common for the eyes to remain open at death. If they're closed, they can easily be re-opened and may stay that way on their own, at least if rigor mortis hasn't yet set in.
Well, if they need blood flow in the eye, open eyes won't be enough. Attention may be more than just eyes open.
If you got to worry about people shooting you to get your phone, instead of stealing it from you, then I'm guessing you have way more to worry about than me.
You neglected the scenario in which someone shoots you not just to possess your phone but to access it's full functionality. (Hey, another definition of body hacking!) Apple hasn't advertised retinal blood flow as being required. Our discussion here is all academic/entertainment, though, isn't it? Isn't it?
If they person is that desperate to unlock your phone then they will simply force you to unlock it first, then shoot you.
So whatever security you have set up is pretty much bypassed as soon as they pull a gun.
Don't be so sure they'll unlock it just because you point a gun. People aren't that predictable. And if you're too slow to shoot, you risk their clicking the sleep/wake button 5 times first, which inactivates Face ID. In fact, they might have already done that before you brandished the penis proxy, in which case you killed them for nothing.
Gun shots aren't always immediately fatal. And guns are tools like any other tool with positive and negative uses.
Plus, you don't shoot them in this scenario until you confirm the phone is unlocked.
Is this just all academic? I dunno, but I'd much rather be in the hands of US border patrol than the Chinese government. Anyone pitching those as equivalent are idiots.
Well, I know for sure you can’t enter my passcode if I’m dead. If I’m a homocidal, suicidal maniac, about to kill myself after going on a shooting spree, I would hope the last though that goes through my mind isn’t, “Did I remember to turn off Touch ID?”
These articles always present biometric security as the one and only way to get into a phone once it is set.
Well, if the dude decided to use little fingers with Touch ID like some people I know, FBI may run out of lucks. By the fault, they will try Thumbs and Indexes first, that counts 4x there. I would bet that little fingers are the last everyone would use.
cpsro said:It's common for the eyes to remain open at death. If they're closed, they can easily be re-opened and may stay that way on their own, at least if rigor mortis hasn't yet set in.
Well, if they need blood flow in the eye, open eyes won't be enough. Attention may be more than just eyes open.
If you got to worry about people shooting you to get your phone, instead of stealing it from you, then I'm guessing you have way more to worry about than me.
You neglected the scenario in which someone shoots you not just to possess your phone but to access it's full functionality. (Hey, another definition of body hacking!) Apple hasn't advertised retinal blood flow as being required. Our discussion here is all academic/entertainment, though, isn't it? Isn't it?
If they person is that desperate to unlock your phone then they will simply force you to unlock it first, then shoot you.
So whatever security you have set up is pretty much bypassed as soon as they pull a gun.
Don't be so sure they'll unlock it just because you point a gun. People aren't that predictable. And if you're too slow to shoot, you risk their clicking the sleep/wake button 5 times first, which inactivates Face ID. In fact, they might have already done that before you brandished the penis proxy, in which case you killed them for nothing.
Gun shots aren't always immediately fatal. And guns are tools like any other tool with positive and negative uses.
Plus, you don't shoot them in this scenario until you confirm the phone is unlocked.
Is this just all academic? I dunno, but I'd much rather be in the hands of US border patrol than the Chinese government. Anyone pitching those as equivalent are idiots.
Damn! I guess that makes me an idiot. Hate it when that happens!
cpsro said:It's common for the eyes to remain open at death. If they're closed, they can easily be re-opened and may stay that way on their own, at least if rigor mortis hasn't yet set in.
Well, if they need blood flow in the eye, open eyes won't be enough. Attention may be more than just eyes open.
If you got to worry about people shooting you to get your phone, instead of stealing it from you, then I'm guessing you have way more to worry about than me.
You neglected the scenario in which someone shoots you not just to possess your phone but to access it's full functionality. (Hey, another definition of body hacking!) Apple hasn't advertised retinal blood flow as being required. Our discussion here is all academic/entertainment, though, isn't it? Isn't it?
If they person is that desperate to unlock your phone then they will simply force you to unlock it first, then shoot you.
So whatever security you have set up is pretty much bypassed as soon as they pull a gun.
Don't be so sure they'll unlock it just because you point a gun. People aren't that predictable. And if you're too slow to shoot, you risk their clicking the sleep/wake button 5 times first, which inactivates Face ID. In fact, they might have already done that before you brandished the penis proxy, in which case you killed them for nothing.
Gun shots aren't always immediately fatal. And guns are tools like any other tool with positive and negative uses.
Plus, you don't shoot them in this scenario until you confirm the phone is unlocked.
Is this just all academic? I dunno, but I'd much rather be in the hands of US border patrol than the Chinese government. Anyone pitching those as equivalent are idiots.
Damn! I guess that makes me an idiot. Hate it when that happens!
Stupid FaceID has cause so many problems since release. /s
the first two are BS because Apple addressed those issues in the keynote. but yeah
personally I feel like if this is a criminal case and you are presented with a body and a phone then its no issue to try to use the fingers to unlock the phone if its fresh enough it might work. (I put it up there with the notion that if you hear a gun shot inside a house you don't need a warrant or to wait for someone to let you in to be considered a legal entry). trouble is that you probably only have about 10 minutes from death before the temp etc is gone. after that point you are chasing the clock to get a clean print etc to open it. especially since you don't know if its been an hour or 47 hours since the last time the owner entered the passcode. you also don't know which finger is the correct one. the most common are the thumbs and forefingers but not everyone prints all 4. and just cause someone fired a gun with the left hand doesn't mean he/she printed that hand to open the phone. or any of those digits. if someone printed his pinky you might not think of that until you have blown all your chances. and if said party wasn't signed into iCloud or didn't have backups on you might not get much out of that warrant to make Apple locate the appropriate iCloud account.
and that is why I don't support this notion of LEOs looking at phones as the end all and be all of evidence. they should be the last on the list because there's so little guarantee of getting anything useful. Especially if its a smart criminal who is up on tech and would wipe the phone before committing the crime
A senior staff attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation's digital civil liberties group, Nate Cardozo, said that he understood Touch ID will work with dead body, but that Face ID on the iPhone X won't because of attention detection.
"Touch ID, definitely," added Phobos Group researcher Dan Tentler. "Face ID? Hard to say, you could probably get it done if you had the body, and were able to open the person's eyes..."
It's common for the eyes to remain open at death. If they're closed, they can easily be re-opened and may stay that way on their own, at least if rigor mortis hasn't yet set in.
Well, if they need blood flow in the eye, open eyes won't be enough. Attention may be more than just eyes open.
If you got to worry about people shooting you to get your phone, instead of stealing it from you, then I'm guessing you have way more to worry about than me.
i suspect there will be an update that requires movement in the face like eyes blinking to qualify as 'attention'
The thing that bothers me is ive yet to see any indication of useful information coming from any phone. It is almost like the FBI is making a mountain out of a mole hill here. If they want to know whom you have been calling all they need to do is contact the phone company for your records.
The terrorist phone doesn’t matter. If I plan to murder a dozen of people and got myself kill, I probably will be plan to destroy my phone before the attack. What the government want is the back door to everyone’s phone. And US is not alone on this, China, Russia, Britain, France are all on the same boat.
FBI must love the good old days when bed people just forget to burn the notes.
Comments
I think back 35 years ago to what a security expert told me:
"If they want in badly enough they will get in. Security lies in making it hard enough that they go elsewhere"
You can even test this without killing someone--if someone is willing to lose a fingertip (or you're a psycho).
But yes, most instances where law enforcement tries or is even successful in obtaining data from phones gets them nothing useful. Once in a rare while they do get publicity about nabbing drug dealers or good evidence from info scoured from someone's phone. Here's one case where it worked: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38183819
Its a fake dispute, because the experts are talking about difference of nuanced technical details.
What Precise Biometrics said is true - THEIR fingerprint sensors do liveness detection (eg shining IR or green light through the finger to pick up the pulse at the point of reading, or using essentially an ECG like sensor to do the same thing). Just because their sensors do it, does not mean TouchID does.
In fact, TouchID does not. Apple has avoided documenting the nuance, but every single demonstrated copied finger spoof of TouchID hack has had no element to it that does any kind of faking out for liveness detection. They all just:
- are a 3D model built from an actual print
- have conductivity & capacitance similar to skin
Conductivity and capacitance will change after death as a body decomposes , but for the kinds of timeframes in this discussion - the finger does not need to have a pulse or be warm, or attached. It just triggers the read process , and the image that is analyzed is not the surface fingerprint, it’s reading a sub-dermal image into the structure pressed up against it. That does not require life as well.
You can train TouchID to trigger off one of those nubby styluses made for capacitive touchscreens as a “fingerprint” just fine, and it’s certainly not alive. I had gloves with the TouchTec treatment I used in Canada in the winter, and a finger on those gloves would unlock my device. The glove was not alive either.
Gun shots aren't always immediately fatal. And guns are tools like any other tool with positive and negative uses.
Plus, you don't shoot them in this scenario until you confirm the phone is unlocked.
Is this just all academic? I dunno, but I'd much rather be in the hands of US border patrol than the Chinese government. Anyone pitching those as equivalent are idiots.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/23/lawyer-torture-china-secret-jails-xie-yang
https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2017/01/20/document-of-torture-one-chinese-lawyers-story-from-jail/
http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/extreme-torture-inside-chinas-correctional-facilities/news-story/7e4a796bc1401d593f5cc58d7fd32ecb
http://www.ishr.org/countries/peoples-republic-of-china/methods-of-torture-in-the-peoples-republic-of-china/
https://www.economist.com/news/china/21723460-so-much-strengthening-rule-law-china-torturing-civil-rights-lawyers
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/11/china-torture-forced-confession/
If the shoe fits.
personally I feel like if this is a criminal case and you are presented with a body and a phone then its no issue to try to use the fingers to unlock the phone if its fresh enough it might work. (I put it up there with the notion that if you hear a gun shot inside a house you don't need a warrant or to wait for someone to let you in to be considered a legal entry). trouble is that you probably only have about 10 minutes from death before the temp etc is gone. after that point you are chasing the clock to get a clean print etc to open it. especially since you don't know if its been an hour or 47 hours since the last time the owner entered the passcode. you also don't know which finger is the correct one. the most common are the thumbs and forefingers but not everyone prints all 4. and just cause someone fired a gun with the left hand doesn't mean he/she printed that hand to open the phone. or any of those digits. if someone printed his pinky you might not think of that until you have blown all your chances. and if said party wasn't signed into iCloud or didn't have backups on you might not get much out of that warrant to make Apple locate the appropriate iCloud account.
and that is why I don't support this notion of LEOs looking at phones as the end all and be all of evidence. they should be the last on the list because there's so little guarantee of getting anything useful. Especially if its a smart criminal who is up on tech and would wipe the phone before committing the crime
i suspect there will be an update that requires movement in the face like eyes blinking to qualify as 'attention'
What the government want is the back door to everyone’s phone. And US is not alone on this, China, Russia, Britain, France are all on the same boat.
FBI must love the good old days when bed people just forget to burn the notes.