The warrant doesn't have to make sense. The point of this is that law enforcement want to harass Apple. They think that by wasting their time and bad mouthing them in the media that they can put pressure on Apple to put all of us at risk. So that they can find out what motivated a crazy person to shoot up a church. (Fun fact, he was motivated to murder a bunch of people in part because your country is the only major developed country in the world that hasn't properly roped in the gun lobby. Your politicians are hopelessly irresponsible unless the rest of the developed world.)
The warrant doesn't have to make sense. The point of this is that law enforcement want to harass Apple. They think that by wasting their time and bad mouthing them in the media that they can put pressure on Apple to put all of us at risk. So that they can find out what motivated a crazy person to shoot up a church. (Fun fact, he was motivated to murder a bunch of people in part because your country is the only major developed country in the world that hasn't properly roped in the gun lobby. Your politicians are hopelessly irresponsible unless the rest of the developed world.)
I suppose it's possible this is another attempt like San Bernardino, but I doubt it in this case. It isn't one of the big 3-letter agencies and the pressure isn't right. More likely just procedure.
And, how are you figuring that USA citizen's right to defend their rights - by having guns - motivated this guy? Have you seen some news I haven't? It seems a domestic dispute, mental illness, a history of violence were the motivation, possibly enabled by meds. If you want to put the blame somewhere (besides the guy), how about the health-care system (i.e.: Congress) and failed military policy.
The digital domain should be no different than the physical domain. The authorities should have access to any personal information for the purposes of a criminal investigation, when authorized by a judge for special circumstances, like this warrant. They should be able to go through your closets and crawl spaces. They should be able to go through any digital space for files and digital fingerprints and tracks and trails of digital conversations. Those who have nothing to be ashamed of have nothing to fear.
I really hope you are joking.
The fundamental problem we have in this country is the constant search to blame anybody or anything other than the mentally ill person that caused the crime in the first place. We need to break out of this constant search for excuses and revert to the way the mentally ill where handled in the past.
genovelle said: The warrant makes no sense. It has been well documented and I’m sure Apple told them they can’t access the phone, so why even make such a legal request when it is moot. The only possible reason is deflection.
My guess is that it's just a matter of procedure. What would people say if they didn't try? I don't think there is much of a mystery around this case, or much need to discover anything, aside from providing some answers to family of the victims.
The big failures in this case were the military in how they handled it (reporting him to civilian authorities), and the failure of our health-care system and VA treatment of mental health. Also, big pharma might be involved too, if the info I've heard is correct.
The guy had a violent history... even more violent than people knew because the military failed to pass the info along. Apparently he tried to get psych counseling, but couldn't afford it (that should be a shame on our veterans care system!). He also supposedly started on some meds... and having had some mild personal experience with this in the past... that can lead to some really bad stuff. Throw in family problems and such, and this isn't exactly rocket-science.
There is not effective treatment for the mentally ill!!! You only have two choices that are known to work effectively, one is to lock them up in very secure facilities and the other is simply to execute them. Execution of the mentally ill is one of the few places where I can see capital punishment being justified. The reason is simple you can't trust somebody that has demonstrated a mental defect.
""and having had some mild personal experience with this in the past... that can lead to some really bad stuff. Throw in family problems and such, and this isn't exactly rocket-science""
The whole mental health industry is a joke. The best thing we could do is to make the doctors legally responsible for every person they release drugged up back into society. That right there would cause a lasting end to burdening the public with the mentally ill.
Apple should legally hand over the unencrypted contents of the phone, but unfortunately, there is no way to do that without compromising the security of everyone.
A fact of life in the digital age, a key that opens one lock will open all locks.
And yet we have seen again and again that no useful information comes up in these searches. This is just liberal government trying to create a situation where they can drive lawmakers to make encryption illegal. Just watch the media if we start to see a concerted effort to smug Apple in the media you will know that the next move will be to get people to believe encryption should be illegal.
This isn't unlike the so called gun control initiatives of the liberal media. They try to bias the public with a bunch of lies and half truths in the hopes that they can get a block of voters that don't know any better. What is even worse here is that they wrap the debate around things like public safety to hide a deeper agenda to dominate the political arena.
Apple should legally hand over the unencrypted contents of the phone, but unfortunately, there is no way to do that without compromising the security of everyone.
A fact of life in the digital age, a key that opens one lock will open all locks.
And yet we have seen again and again that no useful information comes up in these searches. This is just liberal government trying to create a situation where they can drive lawmakers to make encryption illegal. Just watch the media if we start to see a concerted effort to smug Apple in the media you will know that the next move will be to get people to believe encryption should be illegal.
This isn't unlike the so called gun control initiatives of the liberal media. They try to bias the public with a bunch of lies and half truths in the hopes that they can get a block of voters that don't know any better. What is even worse here is that they wrap the debate around things like public safety to hide a deeper agenda to dominate the political arena.
“liberal government”? lol it’s the Republicans who would make encryption illegal, and I don’t think they’d appreciate being called liberal.
The conservative media and politicians have mostly succeeded in demonizing that word, liberal. And you’ve fallen for it—you use it as a derogatory word, full of hate.
The digital domain should be no different than the physical domain. The authorities should have access to any personal information for the purposes of a criminal investigation, when authorized by a judge for special circumstances, like this warrant. They should be able to go through your closets and crawl spaces. They should be able to go through any digital space for files and digital fingerprints and tracks and trails of digital conversations. Those who have nothing to be ashamed of have nothing to fear.
Well, that’s fair enough as long as your happy with criminals having access to your data too. As soon as the FBI gets a backdoor key they will lose it. It will appear in the public domain and anyone will have access to your data.
So so how do you feel about lawbreakers having free access to your house because the FBI lost the skeleton key?
Has Apple done anything wrong in a legal sense or are they just trying to make Apple out as the uncaring bad guy? What's the point of encryption if it's easily cracked? Why don't these people just go after the gun manufacturers? They're the ones that keep putting weapons in the hands of these nut jobs.
There is not effective treatment for the mentally ill!!! You only have two choices that are known to work effectively, one is to lock them up in very secure facilities and the other is simply to execute them. Execution of the mentally ill is one of the few places where I can see capital punishment being justified. The reason is simple you can't trust somebody that has demonstrated a mental defect.
""and having had some mild personal experience with this in the past... that can lead to some really bad stuff. Throw in family problems and such, and this isn't exactly rocket-science""
The whole mental health industry is a joke. The best thing we could do is to make the doctors legally responsible for every person they release drugged up back into society. That right there would cause a lasting end to burdening the public with the mentally ill.
Wow, execute people with mental defect?! I'm not even sure how to respond... but, I think we could come up with something better than that. Sheesh.
My point, though, was that some of these drugs are extremely dangerous, and it seems we maybe agree on that. (And, it's amazing the number of these and other violent incidents have some kind of pharma introduction or change in their history.... we'll just not hear that emphasized because big-pharma pays far to much to the media outlets.)
In my own experience, a doc talked me into trying a SSRI several years back, and I literally felt an almost out of body experience of observing myself becoming irritated and angry way out of proportion... like the onset of being out of control. It scared the heck out of me and I stopped cold-turkey... which led to a week or so of nasty side-effects.
I'm a pretty level-headed mellow dude, but imagine if you give something like that to a hot-head with a violent history who might have some other issues, both mentally and a messed up life, etc. While that doesn't excuse what happened... it does scare me to think that under the right conditions, I might have been capable of hurting someone or such due to some pills.
But, IMO, this could have possibly been prevented if the policy wasn't to cut off health-care to veterans who've been discharged. That's just nuts! Train up 'killing machines' and then don't give them proper care, especially the ones who have mental issues? Talk about a recipe for disaster.
The problem isn’t that crazy people have access to encrypted iPhones... The problem is that crazy people have access to guns.
A couple things... first, in several of the recent incidents, the laws were in place to stop people from getting the weapons already. They just weren't followed, or in this case, the proper info didn't get from military to civilian records. But, second, crazy people have had access to guns for a long, long time now. That isn't what has changed to so drastically increase this kind of incident. (In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but general gun violence/deaths if you exclude suicide and these kind of shooters, is actually down.)
... Those who have nothing to be ashamed of have nothing to fear.
Well, that’s fair enough as long as your happy with criminals having access to your data too. As soon as the FBI gets a backdoor key they will lose it. It will appear in the public domain and anyone will have access to your data.
So so how do you feel about lawbreakers having free access to your house because the FBI lost the skeleton key?
Besides that, I totally disagree with the premise. It seems increasingly to be the case that people with nothing to be ashamed of, do have something to fear. The thought-police have leapt into action, and you can be in pretty big trouble for not holding the right views. And, the more out of control the government gets, the bigger that problem is going to be.
Why don't these people just go after the gun manufacturers? They're the ones that keep putting weapons in the hands of these nut jobs.
Why not go after the systems that created the nut jobs? If you did somehow succeed in eliminating all the guns, they'd probably rent U-hauls or buy pressure cookers, etc. That's a band-aid solution (with other huge implications) to a problem with other causes.
I wonder to what extent, if any, that Apple retains or can un-trash previous iCloud backups. Say someone knows they have incriminating evidence in an iCloud backup, would doing a forced backup with clean information make the old information be gone beyond any ability to retrieve.
The digital domain should be no different than the physical domain. The authorities should have access to any personal information for the purposes of a criminal investigation, when authorized by a judge for special circumstances, like this warrant. They should be able to go through your closets and crawl spaces. They should be able to go through any digital space for files and digital fingerprints and tracks and trails of digital conversations. Those who have nothing to be ashamed of have nothing to fear.
Right... And how will those incompetent fuckers keep those keys private huh so only the "good guys" (sic) get that info, The NSA and most private companies are leaking like a sieve and you'll trust not just your privacy, the security of every single transaction on this planet to those grade A morons. You do also know that if the US has access to that, that everyone, everywhere (including dictatorships or semi dictatorships) will want (and get) this info on a whim.
And what then, the terrorist or crooks knows they're phone is no good for encryption and stop using it and go back to installing or buying their own on the black market, or simply use good ol' methods that leave no trace. While this happens, everyone gets hacked to death and only terrorists and criminals get the good encryption because they'll pay or it.
The digital domain should be no different than the physical domain. The authorities should have access to any personal information for the purposes of a criminal investigation, when authorized by a judge for special circumstances, like this warrant. They should be able to go through your closets and crawl spaces. They should be able to go through any digital space for files and digital fingerprints and tracks and trails of digital conversations. Those who have nothing to be ashamed of have nothing to fear.
Correct. If the authorities find a paper in the closet of the shooter that’s written in some indecipherable code, but has a plain English written note at the bottom that says the encryption method used to write the note is RSA’s, does that mean the authorities have the right to expect RSA to unencrypt the note? They won’t have the encryption key any more than Apple has the encryption key for the data on that iPhone.
But yeah, they should have access to it all. But some of it just happens to be encrypted and therefore useless. Have at it.
Q: Is encryption legal? A: Yes. End of discussion.
True, but this isn't that discussion. Apple has been served a warrant so they'll hand over all data they can access, in accordance with the warrant.
if it's encrypted, Apple can't provide without the keys, which they can't access by design. Making the keys accessible defeats the purpose of encrypting the files in the first place.
That's the device encryption. If they can't can't access it then they just have to make that an official statement to them, but this is also about his iCloud account, which may not have unbreakable account encryption on their servers as this is inherently different from iDevice HW encryption. Even if it is unbreakable, they just need to state that and explain why. It's a warrant, so I'm not sure why you're focused on the legality of encryption but ignoring the legally of warrants.
Also note that Apple tried to assist them right away, so there's no reason to suspect that Apple will not try to assist them now. If his iCloud account was accessible I'm sure they already have the data waiting for them.
Apple publically documents on their Privacy site, what they can and can’t provide to law enforcement under warrant from data and metadata , from what sits on Apple’s servers.
genovelle said: The warrant makes no sense. It has been well documented and I’m sure Apple told them they can’t access the phone, so why even make such a legal request when it is moot. The only possible reason is deflection.
My guess is that it's just a matter of procedure. What would people say if they didn't try? I don't think there is much of a mystery around this case, or much need to discover anything, aside from providing some answers to family of the victims.
The big failures in this case were the military in how they handled it (reporting him to civilian authorities), and the failure of our health-care system and VA treatment of mental health. Also, big pharma might be involved too, if the info I've heard is correct.
The guy had a violent history... even more violent than people knew because the military failed to pass the info along. Apparently he tried to get psych counseling, but couldn't afford it (that should be a shame on our veterans care system!). He also supposedly started on some meds... and having had some mild personal experience with this in the past... that can lead to some really bad stuff. Throw in family problems and such, and this isn't exactly rocket-science.
There is not effective treatment for the mentally ill!!! You only have two choices that are known to work effectively, one is to lock them up in very secure facilities and the other is simply to execute them. Execution of the mentally ill is one of the few places where I can see capital punishment being justified. The reason is simple you can't trust somebody that has demonstrated a mental defect.
""and having had some mild personal experience with this in the past... that can lead to some really bad stuff. Throw in family problems and such, and this isn't exactly rocket-science""
The whole mental health industry is a joke. The best thing we could do is to make the doctors legally responsible for every person they release drugged up back into society. That right there would cause a lasting end to burdening the public with the mentally ill.
Anyone know what they could possibly be looking for on the phone? Or is this just some paranoid fantasy? Or just continued ignorance and stupidity from the same geniuses who screwed up and failed to get the info when they could?
genovelle said: The warrant makes no sense. It has been well documented and I’m sure Apple told them they can’t access the phone, so why even make such a legal request when it is moot. The only possible reason is deflection.
My guess is that it's just a matter of procedure. What would people say if they didn't try? I don't think there is much of a mystery around this case, or much need to discover anything, aside from providing some answers to family of the victims.
The big failures in this case were the military in how they handled it (reporting him to civilian authorities), and the failure of our health-care system and VA treatment of mental health. Also, big pharma might be involved too, if the info I've heard is correct.
The guy had a violent history... even more violent than people knew because the military failed to pass the info along. Apparently he tried to get psych counseling, but couldn't afford it (that should be a shame on our veterans care system!). He also supposedly started on some meds... and having had some mild personal experience with this in the past... that can lead to some really bad stuff. Throw in family problems and such, and this isn't exactly rocket-science.
There is not effective treatment for the mentally ill!!! You only have two choices that are known to work effectively, one is to lock them up in very secure facilities and the other is simply to execute them. Execution of the mentally ill is one of the few places where I can see capital punishment being justified. The reason is simple you can't trust somebody that has demonstrated a mental defect.
Do you know how fucked up it is to say that people who have (postpartum) depression, PTSD, OCD, ADHD, addiction, bipolar disorders, eating disorders, phobias, Asperger syndrome, or a million other diagnosable mental health issues need to either be locked or executed? I don't think I've ever read anything as fucked up as that on this forum—which screams sociopathy… another mental illness.
Apple should legally hand over the unencrypted contents of the phone, but unfortunately, there is no way to do that without compromising the security of everyone.
A fact of life in the digital age, a key that opens one lock will open all locks.
And yet we have seen again and again that no useful information comes up in these searches. This is just liberal government trying to create a situation where they can drive lawmakers to make encryption illegal. Just watch the media if we start to see a concerted effort to smug Apple in the media you will know that the next move will be to get people to believe encryption should be illegal.
This isn't unlike the so called gun control initiatives of the liberal media. They try to bias the public with a bunch of lies and half truths in the hopes that they can get a block of voters that don't know any better. What is even worse here is that they wrap the debate around things like public safety to hide a deeper agenda to dominate the political arena.
“liberal government”? lol it’s the Republicans who would make encryption illegal, and I don’t think they’d appreciate being called liberal.
The conservative media and politicians have mostly succeeded in demonizing that word, liberal. And you’ve fallen for it—you use it as a derogatory word, full of hate.
It's an odd world we live in when people come to a tech forum where change is constant and then rally against anyone that is "open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values."
"The warrant makes no sense. It has been well documented and I’m sure Apple told them they can’t access the phone, so why even make such a legal request when it is moot. The only possible reason is deflection."
Comments
And, how are you figuring that USA citizen's right to defend their rights - by having guns - motivated this guy? Have you seen some news I haven't? It seems a domestic dispute, mental illness, a history of violence were the motivation, possibly enabled by meds. If you want to put the blame somewhere (besides the guy), how about the health-care system (i.e.: Congress) and failed military policy.
The fundamental problem we have in this country is the constant search to blame anybody or anything other than the mentally ill person that caused the crime in the first place. We need to break out of this constant search for excuses and revert to the way the mentally ill where handled in the past.
There is not effective treatment for the mentally ill!!! You only have two choices that are known to work effectively, one is to lock them up in very secure facilities and the other is simply to execute them. Execution of the mentally ill is one of the few places where I can see capital punishment being justified. The reason is simple you can't trust somebody that has demonstrated a mental defect.
""and having had some mild personal experience with this in the past... that can lead to some really bad stuff. Throw in family problems and such, and this isn't exactly rocket-science""
The whole mental health industry is a joke. The best thing we could do is to make the doctors legally responsible for every person they release drugged up back into society. That right there would cause a lasting end to burdening the public with the mentally ill.
And yet we have seen again and again that no useful information comes up in these searches. This is just liberal government trying to create a situation where they can drive lawmakers to make encryption illegal. Just watch the media if we start to see a concerted effort to smug Apple in the media you will know that the next move will be to get people to believe encryption should be illegal.
This isn't unlike the so called gun control initiatives of the liberal media. They try to bias the public with a bunch of lies and half truths in the hopes that they can get a block of voters that don't know any better. What is even worse here is that they wrap the debate around things like public safety to hide a deeper agenda to dominate the political arena.
The conservative media and politicians have mostly succeeded in demonizing that word, liberal. And you’ve fallen for it—you use it as a derogatory word, full of hate.
The problem is that crazy people have access to guns.
So so how do you feel about lawbreakers having free access to your house because the FBI lost the skeleton key?
My point, though, was that some of these drugs are extremely dangerous, and it seems we maybe agree on that. (And, it's amazing the number of these and other violent incidents have some kind of pharma introduction or change in their history.... we'll just not hear that emphasized because big-pharma pays far to much to the media outlets.)
In my own experience, a doc talked me into trying a SSRI several years back, and I literally felt an almost out of body experience of observing myself becoming irritated and angry way out of proportion... like the onset of being out of control. It scared the heck out of me and I stopped cold-turkey... which led to a week or so of nasty side-effects.
But, IMO, this could have possibly been prevented if the policy wasn't to cut off health-care to veterans who've been discharged. That's just nuts! Train up 'killing machines' and then don't give them proper care, especially the ones who have mental issues? Talk about a recipe for disaster.
A couple things... first, in several of the recent incidents, the laws were in place to stop people from getting the weapons already. They just weren't followed, or in this case, the proper info didn't get from military to civilian records. But, second, crazy people have had access to guns for a long, long time now. That isn't what has changed to so drastically increase this kind of incident. (In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but general gun violence/deaths if you exclude suicide and these kind of shooters, is actually down.)
Besides that, I totally disagree with the premise. It seems increasingly to be the case that people with nothing to be ashamed of, do have something to fear. The thought-police have leapt into action, and you can be in pretty big trouble for not holding the right views. And, the more out of control the government gets, the bigger that problem is going to be.
Why not go after the systems that created the nut jobs? If you did somehow succeed in eliminating all the guns, they'd probably rent U-hauls or buy pressure cookers, etc. That's a band-aid solution (with other huge implications) to a problem with other causes.
But yeah, they should have access to it all. But some of it just happens to be encrypted and therefore useless. Have at it.
....And the iCloud Data