Soooo glad to hear this. The hardware designs have taken s step back in some ways.
And Ive Revolutionized iOS with a perfect minimalist UI THAT WAS THOROUGH.
THE current iteration can use a thorough going over. Keep it minimal and consistent.
I was thinking when Ive got involved was when it went downhill.
Yeah everyone loved that felt and fake wood interface...
Why does every god damn article turn into this constant negativity and results into this I know how to run Apple better than Apple?
because it is a discussion forum? By not having debates, by arguing that we cant criticise Apple because we couldnt run it, all debate is curtailed. Tim Cook could get out of the hardware and software game and turn Apple into a fast food competitor to MacDonalds and we couldnt say anything because we dont run Apple.
This argument, however, only applies to Apple. We can criticise other CEOs
A valid “debate” involves both sides “debating” in good faith and not making random shit up and presenting them as “truth” as the basis of their “criticism”.
The sort of “debate” we’re having on Apple’s UX Design isn’t worth having but yes, this is an internet discussion forum so given that all the “debaters” can fog a mirror the minimum criteria is met.
I’ll point out that my opinion must be entirely correct as I have 50+ years of experience in fogging a mirror...
Why do you assume that people who disagree with you are not debating in good faith? Why isn't the debate worth having? Theres a strange defensiveness here.
And clearly Apple dont make perfect design decisions all the time. In fact iOS 7 changed fairly significantly over the course of the beta. Ive didnt get what he wanted in full.
What do you guys think of the design of the newest Macbook Pro?
The storage is usually not sufficient, and an external drive is a given, therefore there should be an extra port just for that, at least 3 for the 13". I also think they should have made the 15" available without a touch bar. This way the 15" would have been more accessible to more people who do not care for Touch Bar at the price it comes at. Other thoughts: typing is louder, I can see it being a problem in a quiet place. Speakers are louder also, with more bass, they are unexpectedly good for how thin the laptop is. Other than that, works well.
He left day-to-day activities but whoever took over probably did not get free hand either, so it's like iPhone design lost 2 years. Maybe that's why they reused the iPhone 6 design language so much in these last few years, some of it even for iPhone X.
Soooo glad to hear this. The hardware designs have taken s step back in some ways.
And Ive Revolutionized iOS with a perfect minimalist UI THAT WAS THOROUGH.
THE current iteration can use a thorough going over. Keep it minimal and consistent.
I was thinking when Ive got involved was when it went downhill.
Yeah everyone loved that felt and fake wood interface...
Why does every god damn article turn into this constant negativity and results into this I know how to run Apple better than Apple?
because it is a discussion forum? By not having debates, by arguing that we cant criticise Apple because we couldnt run it, all debate is curtailed. Tim Cook could get out of the hardware and software game and turn Apple into a fast food competitor to MacDonalds and we couldnt say anything because we dont run Apple.
This argument, however, only applies to Apple. We can criticise other CEOs
A valid “debate” involves both sides “debating” in good faith and not making random shit up and presenting them as “truth” as the basis of their “criticism”.
The sort of “debate” we’re having on Apple’s UX Design isn’t worth having but yes, this is an internet discussion forum so given that all the “debaters” can fog a mirror the minimum criteria is met.
I’ll point out that my opinion must be entirely correct as I have 50+ years of experience in fogging a mirror...
Why do you assume that people who disagree with you are not debating in good faith? Why isn't the debate worth having? Theres a strange defensiveness here.
And clearly Apple dont make perfect design decisions all the time. In fact iOS 7 changed fairly significantly over the course of the beta. Ive didnt get what he wanted in full.
Because when it takes 5 seconds to check to see if what you are asserting is true and you don't bother you simply don't care what the truth is.
When shown you are wrong because someone else took the 5 seconds to check and you double down and claim it changed...without taking 5 seconds to google iOS 7 UI changes to see if the apps DID in fact look the way you remembered then you simply aren't debating in good faith and wasting everyone's time by asserting things that simply aren't true.
There's no defensiveness but fatigue in dealing with negativity based on laughably provable falsehoods. iOS 7 never shipped with gray text as touch targets. No app developers ever "followed Apple lead" in using gray text fields as touch targets because on day 1 the HIG indicated that color be used to indicate interactive elements which is how it is done in the "modern" web paradigm that users are used to since the 1990s when hyperlinks were indicated via color.
Oh, and nobody said that Apple makes perfect design decisions all the time. That's called a straw man. Another indication that the debate isn't being done in "good faith".
Soooo glad to hear this. The hardware designs have taken s step back in some ways.
And Ive Revolutionized iOS with a perfect minimalist UI THAT WAS THOROUGH.
THE current iteration can use a thorough going over. Keep it minimal and consistent.
I was thinking when Ive got involved was when it went downhill.
Yeah everyone loved that felt and fake wood interface...
Why does every god damn article turn into this constant negativity and results into this I know how to run Apple better than Apple?
because it is a discussion forum? By not having debates, by arguing that we cant criticise Apple because we couldnt run it, all debate is curtailed. Tim Cook could get out of the hardware and software game and turn Apple into a fast food competitor to MacDonalds and we couldnt say anything because we dont run Apple.
This argument, however, only applies to Apple. We can criticise other CEOs
A valid “debate” involves both sides “debating” in good faith and not making random shit up and presenting them as “truth” as the basis of their “criticism”.
The sort of “debate” we’re having on Apple’s UX Design isn’t worth having but yes, this is an internet discussion forum so given that all the “debaters” can fog a mirror the minimum criteria is met.
I’ll point out that my opinion must be entirely correct as I have 50+ years of experience in fogging a mirror...
Why do you assume that people who disagree with you are not debating in good faith? Why isn't the debate worth having? Theres a strange defensiveness here.
And clearly Apple dont make perfect design decisions all the time. In fact iOS 7 changed fairly significantly over the course of the beta. Ive didnt get what he wanted in full.
Because when it takes 5 seconds to check to see if what you are asserting is true and you don't bother you simply don't care what the truth is.
When shown you are wrong because someone else took the 5 seconds to check and you double down and claim it changed...without taking 5 seconds to google iOS 7 UI changes to see if the apps DID in fact look the way you remembered then you simply aren't debating in good faith and wasting everyone's time by asserting things that simply aren't true.
There's no defensiveness but fatigue in dealing with negativity based on laughably provable falsehoods. iOS 7 never shipped with gray text as touch targets. No app developers ever "followed Apple lead" in using gray text fields as touch targets because on day 1 the HIG indicated that color be used to indicate interactive elements which is how it is done in the "modern" web paradigm that users are used to since the 1990s when hyperlinks were indicated via color.
Oh, and nobody said that Apple makes perfect design decisions all the time. That's called a straw man. Another indication that the debate isn't being done in "good faith".
So piss off.
Er. I didn’t make any claims at all about anything you are talking about. I merely responded to you saying this is a discussion forum, when you complained about negativity.
If you can’t handle debate on the internet and can’t differentiate posters maybe this isn’t the place for you?
Ahhh... that explains poor styling of iPhone X comparing to Galaxy Note 8. I thought that Ive had bad days or was drunk, but it looks like it was not his job. Sorry for mistake. I hope Apple will be back on track with designs with Ive soon.
iOS has improved leaps and bounds since iOS 6. Jony started with iOS 7 - which totally redesigned the UI and UX - for the better. ...
You can read my previous posts if you want to see the details, but essentially, I disagree that iOS (on the whole) has improved since iOS 6 and that the redesign of iOS 7 was for the better.
Yes, they have added features that are now seen as 'must haves' so I don't think any of us are saying it is as simple as going back there. But, we're saying that in terms of UI/UX *some* of the moves Apple has made have been downhill and that when coupled with the increase in problems, and beta being lengthened into the first several public releases (post-public beta!), the overall experience seems downhill.
They have certainly made improvements and corrections since iOS 7, but the reason we reference that point, is that is where Ive made a huge UI departure which created a lot of problems and was so inconsistent with Apple's Human Interface Guidelines of the past. One can certainly criticize the skeuomorphic implementation that was a bit over the top in some ways, but it's just as easy to point out the UI issues Ive introduced that weren't just a matter of look or taste.
asdasd said: Probably Steve Jobs liked it. As Scott Forstall said he never heard the word Skeumorphic until he left Apple.
I don't think I heard it too much until around then either. It was a counter to defend the new 'flat' design trend, arguing essentially, that people are now familiar enough with digital interfaces that we don't need to give people real-world based hints in the design anymore. (ie: they'll just know to click on the word 'Done' so we don't need a button labeled 'Done'.) The whole wood and felt stuff is a strawman, as that has little to do with the fundamental argument between skeuomorphic and flat design.
For example, we still use a good bit of skeuomorphic design in the 'flat' world. Just take a look at your music or podcast player. We're still using play, stop, fast-forward, rewind, etc. symbols you'd see on tape decks. Or, when you bookmark in a book reading app, the page-corner turns over, etc. Adding a little graphic of a reel-to-reel animation is more a skeuomorphic decoration.
I'm no purist of either camp. As a web designer, I love the fact that we've gone 'lighter' in terms of not having to make everything into graphics. Most good 'flat' designs still use buttons, maybe just not one that look like 3D rendered physical buttons. UI design is largely about giving the user as much in terms of 'hints' as possible about what interface elements are and do without having to actually click them to find out. Skeuomorphism helps out a bunch.
iOS 7, and especially some of the app-redos it soon spawned, were pretty terrible in this regard. This is because it was BOTH such an abrupt change, but also they stripped out too much of this kind of intuitive info. As mentioned by another poster above, Apple has since added back in color and worked to clarify things. iOS 7 certainly had a cool new look, but as someone who is suppose to be a famous industrial designer, Ive should have gotten pretty bad marks on that one. It wasn't well thought through.
nht said: No, they didn’t “colored them all”. The only words that are red are the clickable ones.
The iOS HIG has stated that color should be used to identify touchable elements. ... It has been this way since ios7 so it has NEVER been the way you describe. It’s absolute total bullshit. The screen shots of the calendar app have red text for touchable elements JUST LIKE TODAY. ... So find one fucking app designed as you state that you are “still” fighting with and post a fucking screen shot. Should be easy for someone who has claims to have “paid attention for 30+ years”.
All the words are red. I could be wrong, but I don't remember that at the launch of it. I don't have screenshots, as I don't have iOS 7 anywhere anymore. I know there was red, but I don't remember everything being red. (As an aside, you *still* can't duplicate a calendar entry - like you can do on macOS - how many releases later?)
I can start looking if you like, but for a quick example, launch your App store and when you search an app, notice that you can click on the grey/black name of the developer/company and it takes you to a list of other apps by them. There's zero indication this is possible, you'd just have to try it, or know about it.
Or, for a non-descript UI example, launch your Notes and notice in the lower left corner, there is an icon made up of 4 boxes. What does this do? I had to click it to find out it had to do with attachments. At least on a desktop OS, you'd likely get a 'tooltip'. iOS is packed full of this kind of stuff... icons that you just have to click to figure out (and hope they don't do something unwanted, or at least pop an 'are you sure' dialog).
I'll admit that many apps have at least somewhat fixed their UIs, due to a lot of user feedback. But, it was this whole jump to 'flat' design that introduced a bunch of poor UI example that needed fixing in the first place. The first round of interface update, even from some of the most popular companies, were pretty bad. And, I absolutely remember the same from several of Apple's apps as well. (In fact, I think the new App Store on iOS is horrible on iOS 11... but I suppose that's somewhat subjective.)
Soooo glad to hear this. The hardware designs have taken s step back in some ways.
And Ive Revolutionized iOS with a perfect minimalist UI THAT WAS THOROUGH.
THE current iteration can use a thorough going over. Keep it minimal and consistent.
I was thinking when Ive got involved was when it went downhill.
Yeah everyone loved that felt and fake wood interface...
Why does every god damn article turn into this constant negativity and results into this I know how to run Apple better than Apple?
because it is a discussion forum? By not having debates, by arguing that we cant criticise Apple because we couldnt run it, all debate is curtailed. Tim Cook could get out of the hardware and software game and turn Apple into a fast food competitor to MacDonalds and we couldnt say anything because we dont run Apple.
This argument, however, only applies to Apple. We can criticise other CEOs
A valid “debate” involves both sides “debating” in good faith and not making random shit up and presenting them as “truth” as the basis of their “criticism”.
The sort of “debate” we’re having on Apple’s UX Design isn’t worth having but yes, this is an internet discussion forum so given that all the “debaters” can fog a mirror the minimum criteria is met.
I’ll point out that my opinion must be entirely correct as I have 50+ years of experience in fogging a mirror...
Why do you assume that people who disagree with you are not debating in good faith? Why isn't the debate worth having? Theres a strange defensiveness here.
And clearly Apple dont make perfect design decisions all the time. In fact iOS 7 changed fairly significantly over the course of the beta. Ive didnt get what he wanted in full.
Because when it takes 5 seconds to check to see if what you are asserting is true and you don't bother you simply don't care what the truth is.
When shown you are wrong because someone else took the 5 seconds to check and you double down and claim it changed...without taking 5 seconds to google iOS 7 UI changes to see if the apps DID in fact look the way you remembered then you simply aren't debating in good faith and wasting everyone's time by asserting things that simply aren't true.
There's no defensiveness but fatigue in dealing with negativity based on laughably provable falsehoods. iOS 7 never shipped with gray text as touch targets. No app developers ever "followed Apple lead" in using gray text fields as touch targets because on day 1 the HIG indicated that color be used to indicate interactive elements which is how it is done in the "modern" web paradigm that users are used to since the 1990s when hyperlinks were indicated via color.
Oh, and nobody said that Apple makes perfect design decisions all the time. That's called a straw man. Another indication that the debate isn't being done in "good faith".
So piss off.
Er. I didn’t make any claims at all about anything you are talking about. I merely responded to you saying this is a discussion forum, when you complained about negativity.
If you can’t handle debate on the internet and can’t differentiate posters maybe this isn’t the place for you?
That was macexpress (not me) responding to cgwerks who did make those claims. Maybe it is you who can't differentiate.
iOS has improved leaps and bounds since iOS 6. Jony started with iOS 7 - which totally redesigned the UI and UX - for the better. ...
You can read my previous posts if you want to see the details, but essentially, I disagree that iOS (on the whole) has improved since iOS 6 and that the redesign of iOS 7 was for the better.
Yes, they have added features that are now seen as 'must haves' so I don't think any of us are saying it is as simple as going back there. But, we're saying that in terms of UI/UX *some* of the moves Apple has made have been downhill and that when coupled with the increase in problems, and beta being lengthened into the first several public releases (post-public beta!), the overall experience seems downhill.
They have certainly made improvements and corrections since iOS 7, but the reason we reference that point, is that is where Ive made a huge UI departure which created a lot of problems and was so inconsistent with Apple's Human Interface Guidelines of the past. One can certainly criticize the skeuomorphic implementation that was a bit over the top in some ways, but it's just as easy to point out the UI issues Ive introduced that weren't just a matter of look or taste.
asdasd said: Probably Steve Jobs liked it. As Scott Forstall said he never heard the word Skeumorphic until he left Apple.
I don't think I heard it too much until around then either. It was a counter to defend the new 'flat' design trend, arguing essentially, that people are now familiar enough with digital interfaces that we don't need to give people real-world based hints in the design anymore. (ie: they'll just know to click on the word 'Done' so we don't need a button labeled 'Done'.) The whole wood and felt stuff is a strawman, as that has little to do with the fundamental argument between skeuomorphic and flat design.
For example, we still use a good bit of skeuomorphic design in the 'flat' world. Just take a look at your music or podcast player. We're still using play, stop, fast-forward, rewind, etc. symbols you'd see on tape decks. Or, when you bookmark in a book reading app, the page-corner turns over, etc. Adding a little graphic of a reel-to-reel animation is more a skeuomorphic decoration.
I'm no purist of either camp. As a web designer, I love the fact that we've gone 'lighter' in terms of not having to make everything into graphics. Most good 'flat' designs still use buttons, maybe just not one that look like 3D rendered physical buttons. UI design is largely about giving the user as much in terms of 'hints' as possible about what interface elements are and do without having to actually click them to find out. Skeuomorphism helps out a bunch.
iOS 7, and especially some of the app-redos it soon spawned, were pretty terrible in this regard. This is because it was BOTH such an abrupt change, but also they stripped out too much of this kind of intuitive info. As mentioned by another poster above, Apple has since added back in color and worked to clarify things. iOS 7 certainly had a cool new look, but as someone who is suppose to be a famous industrial designer, Ive should have gotten pretty bad marks on that one. It wasn't well thought through.
nht said: No, they didn’t “colored them all”. The only words that are red are the clickable ones.
The iOS HIG has stated that color should be used to identify touchable elements. ... It has been this way since ios7 so it has NEVER been the way you describe. It’s absolute total bullshit. The screen shots of the calendar app have red text for touchable elements JUST LIKE TODAY. ... So find one fucking app designed as you state that you are “still” fighting with and post a fucking screen shot. Should be easy for someone who has claims to have “paid attention for 30+ years”.
All the words are red. I could be wrong, but I don't remember that at the launch of it. I don't have screenshots, as I don't have iOS 7 anywhere anymore. I know there was red, but I don't remember everything being red. (As an aside, you *still* can't duplicate a calendar entry - like you can do on macOS - how many releases later?)
I can start looking if you like, but for a quick example, launch your App store and when you search an app, notice that you can click on the grey/black name of the developer/company and it takes you to a list of other apps by them. There's zero indication this is possible, you'd just have to try it, or know about it.
Or, for a non-descript UI example, launch your Notes and notice in the lower left corner, there is an icon made up of 4 boxes. What does this do? I had to click it to find out it had to do with attachments. At least on a desktop OS, you'd likely get a 'tooltip'. iOS is packed full of this kind of stuff... icons that you just have to click to figure out (and hope they don't do something unwanted, or at least pop an 'are you sure' dialog).
I'll admit that many apps have at least somewhat fixed their UIs, due to a lot of user feedback. But, it was this whole jump to 'flat' design that introduced a bunch of poor UI example that needed fixing in the first place. The first round of interface update, even from some of the most popular companies, were pretty bad. And, I absolutely remember the same from several of Apple's apps as well. (In fact, I think the new App Store on iOS is horrible on iOS 11... but I suppose that's somewhat subjective.)
All the words are that are red are touchable. They are not ALL red.
In the App store the primary access to other developer apps is the blue link that is the name of the developer under the developer heading. You can access the other apps by touching the name in the title but access isn't hidden because there is an obvious link to developer info on the same page. That the developer name is gray in the title is probably to provide less distraction to the app name. If the developer name was blue it would jump out more.
The 4 box icon is nondescript but doesn't lead to anything dangerous. You have no examples of where touching something like this leads to actual destructive behavior and many icons are nondescript until you learn what they are. There are no tooltips because you can't hover.
There was no "fixing" of the issues you claimed because they were all already covered under the original iOS 7 HIG that I provided a link to.
Comments
Why do you assume that people who disagree with you are not debating in good faith? Why isn't the debate worth having? Theres a strange defensiveness here.
And clearly Apple dont make perfect design decisions all the time. In fact iOS 7 changed fairly significantly over the course of the beta. Ive didnt get what he wanted in full.
In software he's a disaster.
When shown you are wrong because someone else took the 5 seconds to check and you double down and claim it changed...without taking 5 seconds to google iOS 7 UI changes to see if the apps DID in fact look the way you remembered then you simply aren't debating in good faith and wasting everyone's time by asserting things that simply aren't true.
There's no defensiveness but fatigue in dealing with negativity based on laughably provable falsehoods. iOS 7 never shipped with gray text as touch targets. No app developers ever "followed Apple lead" in using gray text fields as touch targets because on day 1 the HIG indicated that color be used to indicate interactive elements which is how it is done in the "modern" web paradigm that users are used to since the 1990s when hyperlinks were indicated via color.
Oh, and nobody said that Apple makes perfect design decisions all the time. That's called a straw man. Another indication that the debate isn't being done in "good faith".
So piss off.
If you can’t handle debate on the internet and can’t differentiate posters maybe this isn’t the place for you?
Yes, they have added features that are now seen as 'must haves' so I don't think any of us are saying it is as simple as going back there. But, we're saying that in terms of UI/UX *some* of the moves Apple has made have been downhill and that when coupled with the increase in problems, and beta being lengthened into the first several public releases (post-public beta!), the overall experience seems downhill.
They have certainly made improvements and corrections since iOS 7, but the reason we reference that point, is that is where Ive made a huge UI departure which created a lot of problems and was so inconsistent with Apple's Human Interface Guidelines of the past. One can certainly criticize the skeuomorphic implementation that was a bit over the top in some ways, but it's just as easy to point out the UI issues Ive introduced that weren't just a matter of look or taste.
I don't think I heard it too much until around then either. It was a counter to defend the new 'flat' design trend, arguing essentially, that people are now familiar enough with digital interfaces that we don't need to give people real-world based hints in the design anymore. (ie: they'll just know to click on the word 'Done' so we don't need a button labeled 'Done'.) The whole wood and felt stuff is a strawman, as that has little to do with the fundamental argument between skeuomorphic and flat design.
For example, we still use a good bit of skeuomorphic design in the 'flat' world. Just take a look at your music or podcast player. We're still using play, stop, fast-forward, rewind, etc. symbols you'd see on tape decks. Or, when you bookmark in a book reading app, the page-corner turns over, etc. Adding a little graphic of a reel-to-reel animation is more a skeuomorphic decoration.
I'm no purist of either camp. As a web designer, I love the fact that we've gone 'lighter' in terms of not having to make everything into graphics. Most good 'flat' designs still use buttons, maybe just not one that look like 3D rendered physical buttons. UI design is largely about giving the user as much in terms of 'hints' as possible about what interface elements are and do without having to actually click them to find out. Skeuomorphism helps out a bunch.
iOS 7, and especially some of the app-redos it soon spawned, were pretty terrible in this regard. This is because it was BOTH such an abrupt change, but also they stripped out too much of this kind of intuitive info. As mentioned by another poster above, Apple has since added back in color and worked to clarify things. iOS 7 certainly had a cool new look, but as someone who is suppose to be a famous industrial designer, Ive should have gotten pretty bad marks on that one. It wasn't well thought through.
All the words are red.
I could be wrong, but I don't remember that at the launch of it. I don't have screenshots, as I don't have iOS 7 anywhere anymore. I know there was red, but I don't remember everything being red.
(As an aside, you *still* can't duplicate a calendar entry - like you can do on macOS - how many releases later?)
I can start looking if you like, but for a quick example, launch your App store and when you search an app, notice that you can click on the grey/black name of the developer/company and it takes you to a list of other apps by them. There's zero indication this is possible, you'd just have to try it, or know about it.
Or, for a non-descript UI example, launch your Notes and notice in the lower left corner, there is an icon made up of 4 boxes. What does this do? I had to click it to find out it had to do with attachments. At least on a desktop OS, you'd likely get a 'tooltip'. iOS is packed full of this kind of stuff... icons that you just have to click to figure out (and hope they don't do something unwanted, or at least pop an 'are you sure' dialog).
I'll admit that many apps have at least somewhat fixed their UIs, due to a lot of user feedback. But, it was this whole jump to 'flat' design that introduced a bunch of poor UI example that needed fixing in the first place. The first round of interface update, even from some of the most popular companies, were pretty bad. And, I absolutely remember the same from several of Apple's apps as well. (In fact, I think the new App Store on iOS is horrible on iOS 11... but I suppose that's somewhat subjective.)
All the words are that are red are touchable. They are not ALL red.
In the App store the primary access to other developer apps is the blue link that is the name of the developer under the developer heading. You can access the other apps by touching the name in the title but access isn't hidden because there is an obvious link to developer info on the same page. That the developer name is gray in the title is probably to provide less distraction to the app name. If the developer name was blue it would jump out more.
The 4 box icon is nondescript but doesn't lead to anything dangerous. You have no examples of where touching something like this leads to actual destructive behavior and many icons are nondescript until you learn what they are. There are no tooltips because you can't hover.
There was no "fixing" of the issues you claimed because they were all already covered under the original iOS 7 HIG that I provided a link to.