Apple's iMac Pro model number pegged as 'A1862' ahead of expected Dec. launch

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 53
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    danvm said:

    I don't think that many pro's will build their own PC's, but they'll look closely at workstation from vendors like HP.  They have done an excellent in keep their systems up to date.  And many of their modelos are far more capable than Mac Pros and the iMac Pro.  Apple could learn a lot from HP, specially in the workstation market. 
    TCO matters and the way your work environment feels matters too...whether it's a $1000 standing desk or a $700 chair or a sleek and quiet $5000 iMac vs a utilitarian $4000 tower and black slab monitor on drab cubicle desk and crappy office.chair.

    Even the leanest startup seeks to have a certain geek aesthetic to attract talent because at the end of the day scoring a couple extra hours of work from an employee every day who's happy at his bamboo standing desk with iMac Pro is a positive ROI.  There's just something nice about working with well designed gear.  $2000 doesn't buy a lot of labor hours...

    xzu
  • Reply 42 of 53
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,250member
    nht said:
    danvm said:

    I don't think that many pro's will build their own PC's, but they'll look closely at workstation from vendors like HP.  They have done an excellent in keep their systems up to date.  And many of their modelos are far more capable than Mac Pros and the iMac Pro.  Apple could learn a lot from HP, specially in the workstation market. 
    TCO matters and the way your work environment feels matters too...whether it's a $1000 standing desk or a $700 chair or a sleek and quiet $5000 iMac vs a utilitarian $4000 tower and black slab monitor on drab cubicle desk and crappy office.chair.



    I suppose you have no idea of what a HP workstation is.  I have seen them in my customers, an while they aren't too nice externally, their components are top notch, plus they are very silent since they have more airflow than an iMac.  Since neither of use have seen personally an iMac Pro, you can't be sure if it's going to be a quiet device.  But there are many people in the web posting about fan noise with the iMac 5k.  Can you imagine how it's going to be when you add to it a Xeon processor?

    Even the leanest startup seeks to have a certain geek aesthetic to attract talent because at the end of the day scoring a couple extra hours of work from an employee every day who's happy at his bamboo standing desk with iMac Pro is a positive ROI.  There's just something nice about working with well designed gear.  $2000 doesn't buy a lot of labor hours...

    The "geek aesthetic" goes down in importance when you start working.  The internals of the device defines what really is a workstation, and HP is miles ahead of Apple.  You'll notice that the iMac is very similar to the HP Z4, and entry model.  Apple has nothing close to the Z6 or Z8.  I'll suggest you to do some research, and you'll see why I posted  that Apple has much to learn from HP in the workstation market. 


    xzu
  • Reply 43 of 53
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    danvm said:
    nht said:
    danvm said:

    I don't think that many pro's will build their own PC's, but they'll look closely at workstation from vendors like HP.  They have done an excellent in keep their systems up to date.  And many of their modelos are far more capable than Mac Pros and the iMac Pro.  Apple could learn a lot from HP, specially in the workstation market. 
    TCO matters and the way your work environment feels matters too...whether it's a $1000 standing desk or a $700 chair or a sleek and quiet $5000 iMac vs a utilitarian $4000 tower and black slab monitor on drab cubicle desk and crappy office.chair.



    I suppose you have no idea of what a HP workstation is.  I have seen them in my customers, an while they aren't too nice externally, their components are top notch, plus they are very silent since they have more airflow than an iMac.  Since neither of use have seen personally an iMac Pro, you can't be sure if it's going to be a quiet device.  But there are many people in the web posting about fan noise with the iMac 5k.  Can you imagine how it's going to be when you add to it a Xeon processor?

    Even the leanest startup seeks to have a certain geek aesthetic to attract talent because at the end of the day scoring a couple extra hours of work from an employee every day who's happy at his bamboo standing desk with iMac Pro is a positive ROI.  There's just something nice about working with well designed gear.  $2000 doesn't buy a lot of labor hours...

    The "geek aesthetic" goes down in importance when you start working.  The internals of the device defines what really is a workstation, and HP is miles ahead of Apple.  You'll notice that the iMac is very similar to the HP Z4, and entry model.  Apple has nothing close to the Z6 or Z8.  I'll suggest you to do some research, and you'll see why I posted  that Apple has much to learn from HP in the workstation market. 


    I buy more workstations than anything else.  Granted mostly Dells and Concurrent boxes but I had one of the "quiet" Z800s with the liquid cooler.  No, they aren't more silent.  The damn case fans get noisy after a little bit.
  • Reply 44 of 53
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,250member
    nht said:
    danvm said:
    nht said:
    danvm said:

    I don't think that many pro's will build their own PC's, but they'll look closely at workstation from vendors like HP.  They have done an excellent in keep their systems up to date.  And many of their modelos are far more capable than Mac Pros and the iMac Pro.  Apple could learn a lot from HP, specially in the workstation market. 
    TCO matters and the way your work environment feels matters too...whether it's a $1000 standing desk or a $700 chair or a sleek and quiet $5000 iMac vs a utilitarian $4000 tower and black slab monitor on drab cubicle desk and crappy office.chair.



    I suppose you have no idea of what a HP workstation is.  I have seen them in my customers, an while they aren't too nice externally, their components are top notch, plus they are very silent since they have more airflow than an iMac.  Since neither of use have seen personally an iMac Pro, you can't be sure if it's going to be a quiet device.  But there are many people in the web posting about fan noise with the iMac 5k.  Can you imagine how it's going to be when you add to it a Xeon processor?

    Even the leanest startup seeks to have a certain geek aesthetic to attract talent because at the end of the day scoring a couple extra hours of work from an employee every day who's happy at his bamboo standing desk with iMac Pro is a positive ROI.  There's just something nice about working with well designed gear.  $2000 doesn't buy a lot of labor hours...

    The "geek aesthetic" goes down in importance when you start working.  The internals of the device defines what really is a workstation, and HP is miles ahead of Apple.  You'll notice that the iMac is very similar to the HP Z4, and entry model.  Apple has nothing close to the Z6 or Z8.  I'll suggest you to do some research, and you'll see why I posted  that Apple has much to learn from HP in the workstation market. 


    I buy more workstations than anything else.  Granted mostly Dells and Concurrent boxes but I had one of the "quiet" Z800s with the liquid cooler.  No, they aren't more silent.  The damn case fans get noisy after a little bit.
    The liquid cool is for old Z workstations, while recent models use a different technology. I found some links so we can compare the iMac and the old Z workstation.   Apple says the iMac 5k runs idle at 15db, while in a review I found, had the HP Z800 with dual CPU and liquid cool at 22db idle.  So the Z800 from 8 years and two Xeon CPUs is just 5db louder than the 2017 iMac 2017. For me, 7db is not too much noise, but maybe it's for you. 

     https://support.apple.com/kb/SP760?locale=en_US

    https://www.computerworld.com/article/2527060/computer-hardware/hp-hoses-workstation-fan-noise-with-liquid-cooling.html

    The most recent Z840 with the Z Cooler runs between 10db (that's less than the iMac 5k) and 35db, which I think is amazing considering that it can hold two 22-core Xeon CPUS, two video cards and 256GB of RAM. 

    http://m.hp.com/h20195/v2/getpdf.aspx/4AA6-2599ENW.pdf?ver=2.0

    Do some research on the web, and you'll see the long list of people with issues of fan noise on the iMac 5K.  It looks like it's not as quiet as you say.  And it could get worst in the iMac Pro with a Xeon CPU and AMD Vega card.  

    edited December 2017 xzu
  • Reply 45 of 53
    ksecksec Posts: 1,568member
    You know, when you buy a Car, you can just take out all the leather seats because they are not important.
    And the Sat Nav, everything else, but this car from X has a faster engine and so much cheaper, you could use those money for many things else.

    Just what kind of logic is that?

    If you dont like the Mac, that is actually perfectly fine. No one force you to buy one.

    But when you do comparison, actual, comparison, that includes everything of quality and value. You need to list them out, and note what's missing.

    Do you go and buy the cheapest health care coverage, good luck, because the cheaper it gets there are many things that is missing and by your logic no one wants it and it is not important.



  • Reply 46 of 53
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    ksec said:
    You know, when you buy a Car, you can just take out all the leather seats because they are not important.
    And the Sat Nav, everything else, but this car from X has a faster engine and so much cheaper, you could use those money for many things else.

    Just what kind of logic is that?

    If you dont like the Mac, that is actually perfectly fine. No one force you to buy one.

    But when you do comparison, actual, comparison, that includes everything of quality and value. You need to list them out, and note what's missing.

    Do you go and buy the cheapest health care coverage, good luck, because the cheaper it gets there are many things that is missing and by your logic no one wants it and it is not important.



    He’s also comparing large dump trucks (workstation) to large pickups (AIO).  Both are used by pros but at different levels.
    edited December 2017 xzu
  • Reply 47 of 53
    xzuxzu Posts: 139member
    nht said:
    ksec said:
    You know, when you buy a Car, you can just take out all the leather seats because they are not important.
    And the Sat Nav, everything else, but this car from X has a faster engine and so much cheaper, you could use those money for many things else.

    Just what kind of logic is that?

    If you dont like the Mac, that is actually perfectly fine. No one force you to buy one.

    But when you do comparison, actual, comparison, that includes everything of quality and value. You need to list them out, and note what's missing.

    Do you go and buy the cheapest health care coverage, good luck, because the cheaper it gets there are many things that is missing and by your logic no one wants it and it is not important.



    He’s also comparing large dump trucks (workstation) to large pickups (AIO).  Both are used by pros but at different levels.
    Maybe this will help.... My Apple Business rep definitely says Apple is positioning the iMac as a Prosumer device and knows it doesn't address the workstation market for a lot of people. Apple believes the iMac Pro will address the one person and small business that needs something faster and thinks there is a big market for that. He actually used the term "stop-gap". 

    It is highly unusual for Apple to pre-annouce a product like the "FUTURE-expandle-'we hear you' Mac Pro", but they know there is another market of people that use Macs that are not addressed by the iMac Pro. They realize the last MacPro was less than successful, and they made the wrong bet on the direction of computing at the time. (his words, paraphrased not mine).  

    So your are exactly right, difference between workstation and AIO. Its not that the iMac is BAD like the touch bar (hahahaha jk) its that its a very defined Pro machine, that many pros won't find value in because their needs are different. Even Tesla makes a Semi now......

    edit: for clarity I edited next year to future. 
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 48 of 53
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,463administrator
    xzu said:
    nht said:
    ksec said:
    You know, when you buy a Car, you can just take out all the leather seats because they are not important.
    And the Sat Nav, everything else, but this car from X has a faster engine and so much cheaper, you could use those money for many things else.

    Just what kind of logic is that?

    If you dont like the Mac, that is actually perfectly fine. No one force you to buy one.

    But when you do comparison, actual, comparison, that includes everything of quality and value. You need to list them out, and note what's missing.

    Do you go and buy the cheapest health care coverage, good luck, because the cheaper it gets there are many things that is missing and by your logic no one wants it and it is not important.



    He’s also comparing large dump trucks (workstation) to large pickups (AIO).  Both are used by pros but at different levels.
    Maybe this will help.... My Apple Business rep definitely says Apple is positioning the iMac as a Prosumer device and knows it doesn't address the workstation market for a lot of people. Apple believes the iMac Pro will address the one person and small business that needs something faster and thinks there is a big market for that. He actually used the term "stop-gap". 

    It is highly unusual for Apple to pre-annouce a product like the "next-year-expandle-'we hear you' Mac Pro", but they know there is another market of people that use Macs that are not addressed by the iMac Pro. They realize the last MacPro was less than successful, and they made the wrong bet on the direction of computing at the time. (his words, paraphrased not mine).  

    So your are exactly right, difference between workstation and AIO. Its not that the iMac is BAD like the touch bar (hahahaha jk) its that its a very defined Pro machine, that many pros won't find value in because their needs are different. Even Tesla makes a Semi now......
    Again, one more time on the Mac Pro.

    It wasn't "next year." It was "not this year." Could this mean 2018? Sure. But, it could also mean 2019.
    chiaxzu
  • Reply 49 of 53
    welshdogwelshdog Posts: 1,826member
    wizard69 said:
    Anyone know the price breakdown for the major components of this?  $5K is huge money, and critics will be all about the "Apple tax."  It would help to know that the processor costs $x, the video card costs $x, the 1TB SSD costs $x, etc.  Presumably Apple is earning a margin of near 30%, so I expect these components are surprisingly expensive (adding up to well over $3000).
    The cost of the components isnt as big a deal as one unanswered question - will it trottle?    Seriously if this machine suffers  from overheating it will end up being damned industry wide.  

    I know Intel has a process rev giving even better thermals but that is a lot of compute to pack in a thin enclosure.  If it overheats doing pro work people will be pissed.  
    I agree. There's already people pissed about Mac Pros overheating and burning up graphics cards when running DaVinci Resolve.  iMac Pro sounds great, but I have reservations about the potential heat that will be difficult to dissipate quietly.  You also have to worry about potential heat related failures in an AIO jam packed like this one will be.  Who knows, maybe Apple has gotten really creative with the thermal design here and there won't be issues.  We'll see.
    xzu
  • Reply 50 of 53
    welshdogwelshdog Posts: 1,826member
    Mike Wuerthele said:Again, one more time on the Mac Pro.

    It wasn't "next year." It was "not this year." Could this mean 2018? Sure. But, it could also mean 2019.
    And you would have to wonder why is it taking them so long?  I would wager that one factor is the non-AIO Mac development team is pretty small and it surely takes them longer to come up with a completely new design.  HP and other workstation companies have successful workstation product lines that sell well and new designs are released continually.  And I bet their design groups are much larger than the Apple teams. They generally don't go back to square one like Apple seems to be doing.
    xzu
  • Reply 51 of 53
    VRing said:
    macxpress said:
    Anyone know the price breakdown for the major components of this?  $5K is huge money, and critics will be all about the "Apple tax."  It would help to know that the processor costs $x, the video card costs $x, the 1TB SSD costs $x, etc.  Presumably Apple is earning a margin of near 30%, so I expect these components are surprisingly expensive (adding up to well over $3000).
    Many have tried to build a similar PC and have failed to do a fair comparison. The graphics cards in them are brand new (I think the reason for the Dec availability) as well as the Xeon processors are also new. Those alone are quite expensive. Since people cannot get their hands on these new AMD Vega/Vega Pro graphics they're trying to compare a PC with dual 1080TI graphics cards and thats not really a fair comparison in the end. Same goes for the CPU...many are just comparing the highest end current Core i7 which again, isn't a fair comparison. Even then, they come to about $4500 if I remember correctly. Again, that doesn't count in the design costs, assembly, shipping, sales costs, support costs, etc.

    Apple did one during the keynote with an HP Workstation and it was over $7,000. I think we'll have to wait a little bit when the parts become fully available for the public.

    What many fail to factor in when calculating a cost is the R&D, engineering, making the software all work efficiently, the OS, and any apps included, assembly, shipping, retail, support costs, etc. These are all factored into the cost of any product, yet people just go on PC Part Picker and price out the parts and think thats a fair comparison when its not.
    Apple iMac Pro ($5000)

    Intel Xeon (8 core / 16 thread)
    32 GB DDR4-2666 ECC
    1TB SSD
    Radeon Pro Vega 56 - 8 GB HBM2

    DIY PC ($3090 - everything except for a monitor, keyboard, mouse and OS)

    AMD Threadripper 1950X (16 core / 32 thread)
    32 GB DDR4-2133 ECC 
    1TB Samsung 960 EVO
    Radeon Vega Frontier Edition (Vega 64) - 16 GB HBM2

    pcpartpicker: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/NGV9sJ

    The DIY build has a better CPU and GPU than the iMac Pro.

    By the time the iMac Pro launches, there will be even more price drops and other new products only a month or so away (look to CES).
    Actually the DIY does not necessarily have better CPU and GPU, since Xeon and Vega both are still unavailable commercially. They might be closer in terms of performance, but I bet the new ones have higher efficiency.
    xzu
  • Reply 52 of 53
    VRingVRing Posts: 108member
    chia said:
    VRing said:

    Thunderbolt 3 isn't nearly that important when you have a motherboard with that much expansion and 64 PCIe lanes.

    2x 10 Gb/s Ethernet can be added for $175 extra in the PCIe x1 slot, which might not be needed.

    The display is left out because it gives the option to choose a display or multiple displays that best suite your needs.

    You seem to be shirking out of the responsibility of choosing a suitable display to make your system equivalent in the comparison with the iMac Pro.

    If there was an iMac Pro in the workplace that needed to be replaced and you told the boss “I can get the equivalent for cheaper”, you’d be expected to get everything so that the equivalent system is immediately usable, not plonk a box on the desk and tell the boss “go choose a monitor you like”. Also as you are comparing, the monitor should be at least as good as the display on the iMac Pro, otherwise you’re not comparing like with like.

    Another thing with the workplace scenario is that Thunderbolt 3 will be very useful for quickly detaching and attaching external drive arrays from an old faulty machine and to the new replacement. With PCI storage you’re limited to how many slots and the physical size within the computer’s case. There’s also the harassment of opening and unplugging the cards should anything go wrong with that computer.
    Thunderbolt 3 removes those limitations.
    No, I don't think you understand. If you need a random single display as filler for a comparison purpose, then just list the Dell UP2718Q. Lower resolution, but faster response, excellent colors and local dimming (384 zones). However, if this is being used for CAD or coding, then you might not want that monitor anyways. You might want multiple monitors.

    You have USB 3.1 gen 2, which is 10 Gbps, which is faster than SATA3 (6 Gbps) for connecting to external drives. Otherwise, you would just be better off having a $100 drive cage on the front of your case (much cleaner than having another external cage) allowing you to hot swap multiple drives and configure raid. Thunderbolt 3 is not needed.

     
    macxpress said:
    chia said:
    VRing said:

    Thunderbolt 3 isn't nearly that important when you have a motherboard with that much expansion and 64 PCIe lanes.

    2x 10 Gb/s Ethernet can be added for $175 extra in the PCIe x1 slot, which might not be needed.

    The display is left out because it gives the option to choose a display or multiple displays that best suite your needs.

    You seem to be shirking out of the responsibility of choosing a suitable display to make your system equivalent in the comparison with the iMac Pro.

    If there was an iMac Pro in the workplace that needed to be replaced and you told the boss “I can get the equivalent for cheaper”, you’d be expected to get everything so that the equivalent system is immediately usable, not plonk a box on the desk and tell the boss “go choose a monitor you like”. Also as you are comparing, the monitor should be at least as good as the display on the iMac Pro, otherwise you’re not comparing like with like.

    Another thing with the workplace scenario is that Thunderbolt 3 will be very useful for quickly detaching and attaching external drive arrays from an old faulty machine and to the new replacement. With PCI storage you’re limited to how many slots and the physical size within the computer’s case. There’s also the harassment of opening and unplugging the cards should anything go wrong with that computer.
    Thunderbolt 3 removes those limitations.
    Exactly my point with Thunderbolt 3...its also extremely versatile where as PCIe isn't always. 

    When you add in a display with the same quality as the iMac/iMac Pro, you're back up to the price of the iMac Pro so did you really gain much in the end, other than possibly a faster processor? Sure, maybe you can upgrade it later on, but eventually its not going to make a difference. I'd like to know know many Professional actually get into their Mac now and upgrade it assuming they have one that makes this possible? I'm not talking about the Photographer who does this on the side...I'm talking about the person who is extremely serious and this is the day job, maybe even has their own company. Do you just buy what you need and need for the future and then when it doesn't suit your needs you just a new Mac, or do you upgrade it?
    Read above^
    xzu
  • Reply 53 of 53
    VRingVRing Posts: 108member
    kevin kee said:
    VRing said:
    macxpress said:
    Anyone know the price breakdown for the major components of this?  $5K is huge money, and critics will be all about the "Apple tax."  It would help to know that the processor costs $x, the video card costs $x, the 1TB SSD costs $x, etc.  Presumably Apple is earning a margin of near 30%, so I expect these components are surprisingly expensive (adding up to well over $3000).
    Many have tried to build a similar PC and have failed to do a fair comparison. The graphics cards in them are brand new (I think the reason for the Dec availability) as well as the Xeon processors are also new. Those alone are quite expensive. Since people cannot get their hands on these new AMD Vega/Vega Pro graphics they're trying to compare a PC with dual 1080TI graphics cards and thats not really a fair comparison in the end. Same goes for the CPU...many are just comparing the highest end current Core i7 which again, isn't a fair comparison. Even then, they come to about $4500 if I remember correctly. Again, that doesn't count in the design costs, assembly, shipping, sales costs, support costs, etc.

    Apple did one during the keynote with an HP Workstation and it was over $7,000. I think we'll have to wait a little bit when the parts become fully available for the public.

    What many fail to factor in when calculating a cost is the R&D, engineering, making the software all work efficiently, the OS, and any apps included, assembly, shipping, retail, support costs, etc. These are all factored into the cost of any product, yet people just go on PC Part Picker and price out the parts and think thats a fair comparison when its not.
    Apple iMac Pro ($5000)

    Intel Xeon (8 core / 16 thread)
    32 GB DDR4-2666 ECC
    1TB SSD
    Radeon Pro Vega 56 - 8 GB HBM2

    DIY PC ($3090 - everything except for a monitor, keyboard, mouse and OS)

    AMD Threadripper 1950X (16 core / 32 thread)
    32 GB DDR4-2133 ECC 
    1TB Samsung 960 EVO
    Radeon Vega Frontier Edition (Vega 64) - 16 GB HBM2

    pcpartpicker: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/NGV9sJ

    The DIY build has a better CPU and GPU than the iMac Pro.

    By the time the iMac Pro launches, there will be even more price drops and other new products only a month or so away (look to CES).
    Actually the DIY does not necessarily have better CPU and GPU, since Xeon and Vega both are still unavailable commercially. They might be closer in terms of performance, but I bet the new ones have higher efficiency.
    The Xeon in the entry iMac Pro is the W-2145, possibly down clocked or limited for thermals constraints. Threadripper 1950X is better.

    The GPU in the entry iMac Pro is the pro version of the RX Vega 56 8 GB. The top tier GPU for the iMac Pro is the same as the Vega Frontier Edition. Again, the iMac Pro likely has thermal constraints, so the performance won't be as good as the desktop counterpart. 

    The CPU and GPU are definitely better in the DIY build. 
    edited December 2017 xzu
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