AT&T workforce stricken with over 2000 layoffs U.S-wide days after $1000 tax reform bonus ...

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  • Reply 21 of 82
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 9,277member
    What’s so tough to understand here? The traditional landline business has been declining for the last ten years. Fewer people with traditional wireline service means fewer workers needed to maintain the traditional copper wire based network. I retired from AT&T five years ago. The wireline switch I maintained in the Central Office had 25,000 subscribers at its peak. . Today it has less than 5,000 subscribers left. AT&T has told its unions it plans to decommission its landline switches by 2020. The office I worked in had ten technicians in it in 1985. Today it has one left to take care of things. I have three adult children and NONE of them have a landline in their homes. AT&T has thousands of employees it doesn’t need anymore. Wireless cellphone service and satellite tv don’t need many people to maintain it. Technology has left traditional telecommunications workers without jobs. What’s AT&T supposed to do? Keep all those people on their payroll while they sit in the garages playing cards because there’s nothing to do outside?

    In the socialist dreamworld people keep their jobs forever while their pay keeps going up. In the real world technology wipes out jobs on a regular basis. All those McDonald’s workers striking to get $15/hr? They will be replaced by AI in the restaurants. An AI terminal can learn to ask if you want cheese with your burger better than a human worker ever could. Alexa or Siri could probably do it right now.
    edited December 2017 dewmeJasonx911radarthekatwilliamhtzm41GG1pscooter63tallest skilh2p
  • Reply 22 of 82
    dewmedewme Posts: 3,684member
    lkrupp said:
    What’s so tough to understand here? The traditional landline business has been declining for the last ten years. Fewer people with traditional wireline service means fewer workers needed to maintain the traditional copper wire based network. I retired from AT&T five years ago. The wireline switch I maintained in the Central Office had 25,000 subscribers at its peak. . Today it has less than 5,000 subscribers left. AT&T has told its unions it plans to decommission its landline switches by 2020. The office I worked in had ten technicians in it in 1985. Today it has one left to take care of things. I have three adult children and NONE of them have a landline in their homes. AT&T has thousands of employees it doesn’t need anymore. Wireless cellphone service and satellite tv don’t need many people to maintain it. Technology has left traditional telecommunications workers without jobs. What’s AT&T supposed to do? Keep all those people on their payroll while they sit in the garages playing cards because there’s nothing to do outside?

    In the socialist dreamworld people keep their jobs forever while their pay keeps going up. In the real world technology wipes out jobs on a regular basis. All those McDonald’s workers striking to get $15/hr? They will be replaced by AI in the restaurants. An AI terminal can learn to ask if you want cheese with your burger better than a human worker ever could. Alexa or Siri could probably do it right now.
    Well said. Technology based disruption has been a constant societal issue since the Roman Empire and will continue to be so. It's still a gut punch for the affected workers and piling on the tax bill tie-in doesn't change their reality, so I'm not sure why these events are even being linked in an Apple forum. I actually thought AT&T's announcement of bonuses in conjunction with the tax bill passage was more related to AT&T trying to curry favor with the whitehouse around the AT&T/TWC merger blockage.

    In any case, I hope the affected workers will land on their feet. It may be worth refocusing on work inside existing and emerging automation industries, which have been doing quite well for the past 25+ years with a lot more upside potential. With industrial IoT (aka Industry 4.0 outside of North America) you're really looking at massive increases in the subscriber bases for telecom & connectivity services - but for machine subscribers rather than people. Seems like telecommunication workers have a leg up within the industries that are investing in IoT and especially around data acquisition and analytics. I fully expect that we'll be seeing a lot more partnering along the lines of the Apple-GE Predix mash-up over the next couple of years and they'll all need connectivity partners , especially ones that know what it means to deliver connectivity under stringent SLAs and QoS contracts. 
    h2p
  • Reply 23 of 82
    As others have surely (and *hopefully*) pointed out, the tax scam had ZERO to do with these bonuses, principally as none of this has taken effect yet. It is throughly illegitimate to claim that any company promising a bonus (or upping their minimum wage) is a result of this bill. But good to see that techie boyz and their blogs will cheerfully misrepresent something they should have more knowledge of, since mommy and daddy might have to cut down your allowances.

    BTW, the tax cut you got under Obama in 2009 as part of the the stimulus package was far larger than this...thing that has been cobbled together. It also affected a wider number of people in the middle class. It will be a distinct pleasure to see people rushing to scrutinize their pay stubs so they can swear that this is all “working.” Just like all testimonials in all financial scams.
    GeorgeBMactzm41tallest skil
  • Reply 24 of 82

    Australia’s employment laws are similar to the US and they haven’t had a recession there for 25 years so what’s your point?
     Here’s the point, hunny: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-30/as-australia-eyes-victory-on-growth-its-spoils-look-bittersweet
  • Reply 25 of 82
    Rather than try to politicize this, we should look at this soberly. Companies don't make snap decisions to lay off a bunch of people since that tends to look bad in the press and most of them are not heartless, evil capitalists. AT&T just announced a $1 billion expansion investment. This layoff is most likely due to changing business conditions as people are cutting the cord but depending on Internet services more. 

    I went through something similar when a company I worked for shifted from a hardware based to a software and services based company. A lot of long term employees were let go because of it. 

    As for the person who mentioned BMW, you cannot compare that as they have a union contract in place. Strict labor laws across Europe may temporarily favor employees but it has also led to workforce stagnation.
    racerhomie3radarthekatwilliamhtzm41h2p
  • Reply 26 of 82
    Believing this is  all being done to get time warner deal done to get att stock numbers to where they need to be. But the way att is going about this is totally wrong they are letting random people go and are not going by seniority and once’s u are laid off from att it basically means u are fired because there are no recall rights back to there job. So this tells u also how great the unions are.
  • Reply 27 of 82
    The Middle Class and these AT&T Employees can thank the Republicans and Trump for their loss of jobs while the rich get richer.
    Dude ,you don’t know how the economy works.Just like most democrats.
    Please stop trying to be over smart.
    radarthekattallest skilh2p
  • Reply 28 of 82
    stacheowiczstacheowicz Posts: 2unconfirmed, member
    If those republicans and trump weren't in power, then surely people would be getting landlines in droves and these people would still have jobs! If Net Neutrality was in force, then people would be clamoring for traditional land lines and ATT wouldn't be pushing everyone to VOIP. And case you couldn't tell,this was sarcasm. Not everything Is political. When talking about a company size of AT&T, this is minuscule.
    radarthekatwilliamhtallest skilh2p
  • Reply 29 of 82
    ciacia Posts: 137member
    rcpone said:
    The Middle Class and these AT&T Employees can thank the Republicans and Trump for their loss of jobs while the rich get richer.
    Spoken like a true liberal. Always someone else to blame. 

    " layoff notices to a large number of landline, legacy service, and home installers spanning the country "
    Anybody in these kinds of positions has had a very long time to prepare and should have seen the writing on the wall. No one to blame but themselves if they're not prepared to step into another role by now.
    Kind of like the coal miners..... Oh wait.
    Solitzm41waverboy
  • Reply 30 of 82
    roake said:

    3. I am apparently a “tax avoider” as I only pay what I owe.  I use an reputable accountant to be certain.
    Is your income comming in somewhere else than where you live (Eg, Jersey, Cayman islands...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_haven? Cherry picking is what he was talking about. If your not I don´t think you qualify :D

  • Reply 31 of 82
    mwhitemwhite Posts: 263member
    Layoff is not "firing."

    Layoff   = "not for cause"  i.e., the company eliminated the POSITION
    Firing   = "for cause"         i.e., the company terminated the INDIVIDUAL due to behavior or performance in the role

    Yeah I realize that either stinks, especially right before Christmas.

    I just ask that journalists not use "fired" as a shorthand for "laid off".  They are not the same.

    Back in the 70's I was a roofer and was laid off for lack of work 1 week before Christmas but it was the best thing 1 year later I started to work for a school district and after 23 years am enjoying retirement with a good check each month which I wouldn't of received being a roofer.
    h2p
  • Reply 32 of 82
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,354moderator
    clemynx said:
    Are there no morals anymore? I know it wouldn’t have changed much had they been notified in January but still, you don’t fire people right before Christmas, especially if it’s only to increase your margins. 
    Better to have chosen late November, so those laid off could ratchet down their holiday spending.  Except, wait, that’s not what most Americans would have done; they’d spend anyway to give their families a good Christmas, maybe even hide the fact they were laid off until after Christmas.  So maybe just prior to Christmas, when most will take time off anyway to be with family, is a better time, since the employees would at least get another paycheck or two versus late November.  And the New Year is a time for making new plans, so do it before the new year so the laid off employees can incorporate the new reality into their planning.  Yeah, there’s no good time, but just before Christmas, at the end of the year, is not the worst time.  
    edited December 2017 h2p
  • Reply 33 of 82
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,354moderator

    metrix said:
    karmadave said:
    Corporations are not benevolent organizations dedicated to the welfare of their employees. They are profit-seeking enterprises that will take whatever steps necessary (usually within the law) to maximize revenues, profits, and shareholder value. Yeah. The timing of this sucks, especially for those affected, but the reality is that AT&T is managing in it's own self-interest. Tax cuts have very little influence since most large corporations already employ various techniques to minimize taxes. Apple being one of the most creative tax avoiders...
    I think this is exactly why pharmaceutical companies have very little motivation to provide cures and are quite content to provide lifelong prescriptions that can run as much as $5000 per dose. 
    Um, Gilead?  Try again.
  • Reply 34 of 82

    metrix said:
    karmadave said:
    Corporations are not benevolent organizations dedicated to the welfare of their employees. They are profit-seeking enterprises that will take whatever steps necessary (usually within the law) to maximize revenues, profits, and shareholder value. Yeah. The timing of this sucks, especially for those affected, but the reality is that AT&T is managing in it's own self-interest. Tax cuts have very little influence since most large corporations already employ various techniques to minimize taxes. Apple being one of the most creative tax avoiders...
    I think this is exactly why pharmaceutical companies have very little motivation to provide cures and are quite content to provide lifelong prescriptions that can run as much as $5000 per dose. 
    Um, Gilead?  Try again.
    To your point, the medical world complained the cure cost too much even though the alternative was much more costly and required you to be on meds the rest of your life and when your liver failed get an expensive transplant which were in short supply.
    h2p
  • Reply 35 of 82
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,652member
    eightzero said:
    karmadave said:
    Corporations are not benevolent organizations dedicated to the welfare of their employees. They are profit-seeking enterprises that will take whatever steps necessary (usually within the law) to maximize revenues, profits, and shareholder value. Yeah. The timing of this sucks, especially for those affected, but the reality is that AT&T is managing in it's own self-interest. Tax cuts have very little influence since most large corporations already employ various techniques to minimize taxes. Apple being one of the most creative tax avoiders...

    What evidence do you have that Apple does not pay all the tax it owes? I agree there are pending legal disputes, but do you expect Apple to refuse to pay once a legal determination is made? And I'm curious: are you a "tax avoider" by paying only what you legally owe? Or do you put a few extra dollars in to try to help out?


    Avoidance is legal. Evasion is not. Therefore Apple can avoid taxes and still pay all the taxes it owes. It could also not avoid taxes and pay more, and also pay all the taxes it owes. 

    Avoidance isn’t claiming expenses etc. It’s generally using a loophole in the law to not pay taxes that the taxation authorities have imposed using schemes they didn’t anticipate. Or using offshore tax havens to avoid tax.  
  • Reply 36 of 82
    karmadave said:
    Corporations are not benevolent organizations dedicated to the welfare of their employees. They are profit-seeking enterprises that will take whatever steps necessary (usually within the law) to maximize revenues, profits, and shareholder value. Yeah. The timing of this sucks, especially for those affected, but the reality is that AT&T is managing in it's own self-interest. Tax cuts have very little influence since most large corporations already employ various techniques to minimize taxes. Apple being one of the most creative tax avoiders...
    Yes, some employers consider employees to be just expendable, revenue generating machines.
    Others realize that they are the life blood of the organization and value, support and nurture those employees.

    You really can't generalize about it.
  • Reply 37 of 82
    Whoever taught the new tax law will be a boon to the middle-class and bring back jobs are delusional. Let’s leave it to the big corporations to do the right thing and take all those savings from the new tax law and invest it back by bringing in more jobs and not give it back to their shareholders and bottom line. And the extra puny money the new tax law gives me, I need to make sure I don’t blow it all in one place.
    You'll probably need to avoid Starbuck's...
  • Reply 38 of 82
    Why Americans allow CEO's to fire workers willy-nilly to make their short-term bottom line look better is beyond me.

    Yep, lay them off and put them on the dole. Great.

    In Germany, for example, BMW is not allowed to layoff and send them to the unemployment line for the government to pay. First, they have to go on 3/4 time, then half time, then 1/4 time and into a retraining program. Now that's how a responsible company should operate. 

    Case in point, Germany was the last country to go into the Great Recession of 2008 and the first to come out! 

    Oh well. 



    LOL...  Here half the full time employees at places like Walmart are already receiving government assistance because of the sub-poverty wages they pay.
  • Reply 39 of 82
    rcpone said:
    The Middle Class and these AT&T Employees can thank the Republicans and Trump for their loss of jobs while the rich get richer.
    Spoken like a true liberal. Always someone else to blame. 

    " layoff notices to a large number of landline, legacy service, and home installers spanning the country "
    Anybody in these kinds of positions has had a very long time to prepare and should have seen the writing on the wall. No one to blame but themselves if they're not prepared to step into another role by now.
    Spoken like a typical member of the right-wing cult.
  • Reply 40 of 82
    I see a lot of political angles to this when in fact there are none. Here's the thing: remember when Finland blamed Apple's inventing the iPhone for hammering their Nokia-based economy? Well, the same is happening here. AT&T had a ton invested into legacy technology like landlines (been around for like 100 years), cable TV (been around since the 60s) and satellite TV (been around since the 80s) and each of those technologies requires an infrastructure to deploy and maintain. But now you can get all those things on your iPhone or iPad - or its Android equivalent - via an app. And that is today. Tomorrow, when 5G comes out, it is going to replace broadband too. AT&T, Comcast and the rest do not want this to happen ... that is why Comcast scurried to add wireless so they can continue to sell you 2 or 3 services that are essentially redundant, just as AT&T has been doing. But T-Mobile is going to roll out their own internet-based TV service starting next year (you can already get the app and watch certain content so I guess it is in alpha or beta test mode) and then there are live TV/streaming TV bundles from the likes of YouTube and Hulu. Think about it: the mobile industry is already moving away from SIM cards. Soon, your PCs, tablets, smart TV (or TV box) etc. will be able to connect directly to your 5G mobile signal with your username and password. How do they prevent you from giving that username/password to your family and friends? They don't. As you will be paying them for the data, it is in their interests for you to do so! (Yes, this is why unlimited data plans went from being the hot new premium mobile feature to being completely nonexistent ... not even Google Fi offers unlimited data now.) So instead of blaming Democrats and Republicans for these layoffs, blame Apple. And it is only going to continue. We only apply the term "cord cutting" to cable, but far more of it is getting rid of landlines, and yes this includes fake landlines where your legacy phone plugs into your cable router which converts the VoIP into an analog signal ... you honestly might as well be using Google Voice. But the next wave of cord cutting is going to be moving from various forms of Internet to mobile. That is when the real layoffs are going to start. The phone companies have already spent decades junking the legacy phone systems, including shifting a lot of that to the Internet. But nearly all of the current Internet infrastructure is built - engineered really - around and presumes wired connections. In 5 years all of that is going to be obsolete. When that happens a ton of smart, hardworking, highly skilled/trained tech workers are going to be out on the street. And not just people who lay wires or install end user equipment either. We are talking about network designers, data center personnel ... think about companies like Cisco and Juniper who make routing and switching equipment for example ... much of that is going to be gone, and IPv6 and routerless networks is going to make getting rid of that stuff possible. The iPhone and its apps are going to turn out to be the greatest destroyer of tech jobs in history. All of those desktop application programming jobs that went away in favor of mobile was just the beginning, and even there it wasn't that huge a deal as it was relatively easy to switch from developing for Windows to developing for iOS (and Android), plus obviously tons of PC programming still exists as despite the mobile hype PC computing hasn't gone anywhere for the most part. But the cable and Internet jobs that are going to be lost to mobile are going to be simply gone and not coming back because beyond cell towers there is no hardware or infrastructure to speak of, especially if this forces a switch from routed IPv4 to routerless IPv6.
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