What ambient temperature were these tests done at? It's about 90F in my office for 3 months over summer. What would 80% humidity and 90F do to these test results? I reckon you'd get much shorter times at max performance and a significantly reduced real-world speed.
Back in the PowerPC processor days Apple were diligently focussed on real world performance. Not so much now, at least for desktops. Thankfully on the iPad they still are focussed on real world performance - yet another reason why I'm moving as much of my work away from the desktop as I can.
I'll wait for the new Mac Pro for a real power desktop (if I still need such a thing by then)
Video guys report 70F on the dot with low humidity.
I think your interpretation on "real-world performance" isn't complete enough in the forum for me to properly assess the situation. What are you talking about, specifically?
I was conflating a few different issues in a single post - but in my scatterbrained state made sense. YMMV.
I was was trying to point out that back in PowerPC days the Apple CPU's were clocked much slower than what Intel were claiming but Apple put effort into explaining that GHz alone wasn't a good indicator of performance. Well now we have the opposite (sort of). Apple and HP (and Dell and Acer) all use the same processors- so you can compare one against the other (sort of) and if Apple are throttling and HP are not then Apple's real world performance is shot.
Yes I know motherboard design and Ssd selection all make a difference too. But HP pro workstation are well engineered too.
arthurba said: if Apple are throttling and HP are not then Apple's real world performance is shot.
It's pretty rare that any task that's being run on a highly muti-core machine will use exactly 100% of the cores at all times, dropping potentially 10% is meaningless. For a half hour processing task, that's a 3 minute difference. 10% drop was also while running both CPU and GPU at max, which nothing practical ever does. Workstations aren't meant to run benchmarks 24/7, that's just helpful to get an understanding of their performance class relative to other machines. Workstations are used in workflow tasks. Someone is using one here in an 8K RED workflow for Da Vinci Resolve:
"As a RED user I can say it's been really great so far. I have 10 core/64GB RAM/Vega 64 GPU/4 TB SSD. I also have a Red Rocket-X connected via TB3 in a Sonnet box. It cuts through 8K files like a knife through hot butter. Today is literally the first time in years that I felt like my computer was helping me work faster rather than holding be back.
There are a few times I can remember such a large step-up in performance. Moving from floppy disks to a 10MB hard drive in 1976 (Cromemco Z2-D); moving from Sun 2 to Sun 3 workstation (1986); moving from SPARC to MIPS R10000 (1996); moving from Pentium to dual-Xeon (Mac Pro 2008); and now. It's a big deal--and not a moment too soon. I've been using a 2012 Mac Pro and a 2013 new Mac Pro, and both have long fallen behind what my cameras have been demanding. Now I feel like I'm back to being able to do creative things without constantly bumping into performance limitations of one sort or another. Which feels great!"
The performance and price of future models will just get better from this point on too. CPUs/GPUs can still improve another 2-4x. GPU performance is at a point now where the traditional workstation form factor is no longer essential. Fitting 11TFLOPs of compute power into an iMac and sustaining around 70 degrees at full load is a good achievement.
Fitting 11TFLOPs of compute power into an iMac and sustaining around 70 degrees at full load is a good achievement.
Only the iMac Pro with Vega 64 outputs 11 TFLOPS (this is due to it running downclocked). The model tested was with the Vega 56. While it did maintain 70 degrees, it also dropped 10 percent of its performance in 15 minutes at load.
To ensure that this performance loss wasn't due to limited CPU power going to the graphics benchmark, we monitored the percentage of CPU performance Unigine Heaven was receiving. In both the isolated graphics test and simultaneous CPU and GPU benchmarks Unigine was receiving the same 5 percent to 7 percent of processing power, meaning that a 10 percent lower score is likely from the graphics chip throttling itself in order to keep the system from getting too hot.
Speaking of thermals, the new Chicago Apple Store was designed with delusion in mind. It’s not able to withstand US Midwestern cold, and the glass is cracking. Never mind that they apparently didn’t think about icicles falling on people going down the stairs.
Speaking of thermals, the new Chicago Apple Store was designed with delusion in mind. It’s not able to withstand US Midwestern cold, and the glass is cracking. Never mind that they apparently didn’t think about icicles falling on people going down the stairs.
And as noted by others who live in the area...a lot of buildings around there have the same issues and have signs around the building warning them about the possibility for falling icicles. This doesn't appear to be anything new for that area, but because Apple has these signs outside their store all of a sudden its a major issue and Apple has yet again failed.
Marvin said: It's pretty rare that any task that's being run on a highly muti-core machine will use exactly 100% of the cores at all times, dropping potentially 10% is meaningless.
I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. I could run Folding@home and use them all up 24x7, or fire up some 3D rendering engines and easily put them all at 100% for days too. I suppose it could be argued that this isn't what this machine is for. But, being a 'pro' machine, it should be able to handle it.... which it seems it can, just at some performance degradation. (If it doesn't hurt surrounding components.)
That's fine, so long as it is understood. But, if you are a pro comparing two machines and one gives 100% and the other 90%, that's over 1 month of a year in potential difference. Most people just aren't going to actually experience it because their work won't push it there enough.
macxpress said: And as noted by others who live in the area...a lot of buildings around there have the same issues and have signs around the building warning them about the possibility for falling icicles. This doesn't appear to be anything new for that area, but because Apple has these signs outside their store all of a sudden its a major issue and Apple has yet again failed.
A new bridge where I used to live going from Surrey BC in towards Vancouver would drop 'ice bombs' onto the roadway too. I just have to wonder if this is simply unavoidable, or if it's more a matter of the engineers not taking it into account. For example, the Nest thermostat designers clearly didn't understand a home being outside of Silicon Valley. It's probably some mixture of the two.
Throttling or not, it‘s pretty obvious without having looked at the numbers even that the iMac Pro is another design compromise in a thin enclosure. Running the chip at 90-94°C over extended periods of time is going to cause problems, I can guarantee you that. In a few months to a year, the first heavy users will be sending their units in for repair on either shot cpus or gpus.
Thermals have been an Apple pitfall for years, they just don‘t want to get it. Meanwhile my cheap-ass HP Omen maxes out around 60°C and still is quiet enough to not be annoying. Of course it looks like a black shoebox, but hey, physics are physics.
My client issued laptop is a Dell POS and its noisy fans are constantly turning on and off, even while idle. No, I think Apple gets thermals very well.
Speaking of thermals, the new Chicago Apple Store was designed with delusion in mind. It’s not able to withstand US Midwestern cold, and the glass is cracking. Never mind that they apparently didn’t think about icicles falling on people going down the stairs.
As you must have seen on the AI story on this, these signs are common along Michigan Avenue ever since somebody got hit by ice. Snow melting and refreezing and remelting is not unique to Apple.
For example, the Nest thermostat designers clearly didn't understand a home being outside of Silicon Valley. It's probably some mixture of the two.
How do you figure? The Nest is fully programmable to whatever routine and preferences you prefer, both in full-program mode and in top/bottom thresholds during mixed weather.
For example, the Nest thermostat designers clearly didn't understand a home being outside of Silicon Valley. It's probably some mixture of the two.
How do you figure? The Nest is fully programmable to whatever routine and preferences you prefer, both in full-program mode and in top/bottom thresholds during mixed weather.
Between @cgWerks comment and others on thread about the Chicago Apple Store thread talking about Silicon Valley you get the impression they believe Silicon Valley is made up of kidnapped children kept underground working in mines, like in The Temple of Doom.
Do they really not understand that Silicon Valley is not only made up of brilliant minds from all over the US, but also from all over the world? Tim Cook is from Alabama and has been very vocal about the importance of immigration and DACA to the American tech industry.
StrangeDays said: My client issued laptop is a Dell POS and its noisy fans are constantly turning on and off, even while idle. No, I think Apple gets thermals very well.
No doubt. Most PC laptops are pretty awful. But, this is a high-end pro desktop, so that should probably be the benchmark. I'm not sure how they would compare on that, though. I don't think most manufacturers pay too much attention to fan noise. (One can often dramatically improve a device with a fan by replacing it with a better one.)
StrangeDays said: As you must have seen on the AI story on this, these signs are common along Michigan Avenue ever since somebody got hit by ice. Snow melting and refreezing and remelting is not unique to Apple.
Yes, but up here (northern BC, Canada) we know not to design a building with a metal roof, for example (while that might be ideal in other climates).
StrangeDays said: How do you figure? The Nest is fully programmable to whatever routine and preferences you prefer, both in full-program mode and in top/bottom thresholds during mixed weather.
It uses a transistor instead of a relay, which is relatively prone to failure. You DO NOT want failure when it's -30C!!! Also, they've pushed firmware updates mid-winter in the past, which no one thinking outside Silicon Valley would have done.
Soli said: Between @cgWerks comment and others on thread about the Chicago Apple Store thread talking about Silicon Valley you get the impression they believe Silicon Valley is made up of kidnapped children kept underground working in mines, like in The Temple of Doom.
Do they really not understand that Silicon Valley is not only made up of brilliant minds from all over the US, but also from all over the world? Tim Cook is from Alabama and has been very vocal about the importance of immigration and DACA to the American tech industry.
I lived for nearly a decade in San Francisco. It's amazing how quickly the bubble sucks people in (especially worldview and politically!).
As I said above, Nest pushed firmware updates mid-winter that caused some of their devices to fail. 'Nuff said.
As I said above, Nest pushed firmware updates mid-winter that caused some of their devices to fail. 'Nuff said.
That's a software bug, not apathy or ignorance toward differing weather conditions. It would be like saying Apple doesn't think time exists because they've had various date and time bugs in iOS over the years.
Unigine benchmarks are a waste of time seeing as Apple hasn't touched OpenGL in 5 years and most of the exposure to maximizing Unigine Heaven or all their benchmarks are with OpenGL 4.4+.
As you must have seen on the AI story on this, these signs are common along Michigan Avenue ever since somebody got hit by ice. Snow melting and refreezing and remelting is not unique to Apple.
Oh, was there? I’m sorry; I missed that. My purpose was not so much to highlight the formation of icicles itself, just to express confusion at why Apple didn’t think of mitigating it, particularly since there’s an overhang on that staircase. I do hold Apple to a higher standard than most on these things, because they’ve proven to HAVE a higher standard for themselves. It was strange that they didn’t think to use glass rated to the temperatures of the region.
Soli said: That's a software bug, not apathy or ignorance toward differing weather conditions. It would be like saying Apple doesn't think time exists because they've had various date and time bugs in iOS over the years.
But, it was a preventable situation that *should* have been taken into consideration... for the PRIMARY purpose of the product. My gosh, I sure hope you don't work at Tesla! "Oh, all the brakes failing because we pushed a firmware update while the car was in motion, was just a software bug... it's not like we don't realize physics exists."
I like the parallel though in a way. Yes, Apple should realize that some of their core apps might actually be important, and therefore give them proper attention and troubleshooting. Many use their phones as alarm clocks, so that's an app that should get considerable time, QC, testing, etc.
Given what the product is and does *should* reflect some core QC, design, and testing. For example, with a phone, you'd want stuff like making phone calls, calling 911, alarm clock, texting, etc. to be tested really, really well as those are critical functions. Then, you worry about emojis *after* you've covered the basics.
tallest skil said: ... just to express confusion at why Apple didn’t think of mitigating it, particularly since there’s an overhang on that staircase. I do hold Apple to a higher standard than most on these things, because they’ve proven to HAVE a higher standard for themselves. It was strange that they didn’t think to use glass rated to the temperatures of the region.
Is Apple actually designing this stuff? Or, are they passing along ideas to a real architectural firm who should know better? Or, do they have a mini architectural firm within Apple? I think the point is that these things don't seem all that unforeseeable.
Soli said: That's a software bug, not apathy or ignorance toward differing weather conditions. It would be like saying Apple doesn't think time exists because they've had various date and time bugs in iOS over the years.
But, it was a preventable situation that *should* have been taken into consideration…
Lots of things are preventable and yet we all stupid mistakes all the time, both individually and collectively. Saying "it was a preventable situation" is not the same as claiming that it happened because "thermostat designers clearly didn't understand a home being outside of Silicon Valley." You made a post hoc fallacy. One could even say that your unsubstaniated comment was a preventable situation.
StrangeDays said: As you must have seen on the AI story on this, these signs are common along Michigan Avenue ever since somebody got hit by ice. Snow melting and refreezing and remelting is not unique to Apple.
Yes, but up here (northern BC, Canada) we know not to design a building with a metal roof, for example (while that might be ideal in other climates).
And yet in cold & snowy New England it is common practice to use metal for the bottom two feet of roofs specifically to manage snow and ice (it’s harder for it to accumulate on the smooth metal than the textured shingles). So I’m fairly certainly you’re just over simplyfying things in your mind where it’s easy to criticize anything not native to it.
Soli said: Lots of things are preventable and yet we all stupid mistakes all the time, both individually and collectively. Saying "it was a preventable situation" is not the same as claiming that it happened because "thermostat designers clearly didn't understand a home being outside of Silicon Valley." You made a post hoc fallacy. One could even say that your unsubstaniated comment was a preventable situation.
If they realized how crucial home heating is mid-winter in much of the rest of the world, they'd have *never* pushed a firmware update. Yes, mistakes happen, and then there is gross negligence. The transistor (instead of relay) was also an obvious design flaw that most other thermostat makers who know their industry avoid.
This reminds me of my shellfish allergy and restaurants where they offer to pick the shrimp out of the soup. I suppose you could classify that as a mistake, but there comes a point where if you don't know what you're doing, you shouldn't be doing it.
StrangeDays said: And yet in cold & snowy New England it is common practice to use metal for the bottom two feet of roofs specifically to manage snow and ice (it’s harder for it to accumulate on the smooth metal than the textured shingles). So I’m fairly certainly you’re just over simplyfying things in your mind where it’s easy to criticize anything not native to it.
Seems like they are giving in to a tradeoff there (building maintenance vs safety), though I don't know. But, I'm also not an architect/engineer in that discipline. There are a very few buildings and homes here with metal roofs (it isn't illegal or against building codes, apparently)... but if you ask people working in the trades or contractors, etc. they will say to avoid them, and why.
These test were done in ambient room temp of 70F (21C) . That's quite cool. The performance is going to drop off and the fans are going to be definitely more than audible when its >90F (32C). I think the iMac Pro is designed to be used in a well air-conditioned room.
Comments
I was was trying to point out that back in PowerPC days the Apple CPU's were clocked much slower than what Intel were claiming but Apple put effort into explaining that GHz alone wasn't a good indicator of performance. Well now we have the opposite (sort of). Apple and HP (and Dell and Acer) all use the same processors- so you can compare one against the other (sort of) and if Apple are throttling and HP are not then Apple's real world performance is shot.
Yes I know motherboard design and Ssd selection all make a difference too. But HP pro workstation are well engineered too.
https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=68351
"As a RED user I can say it's been really great so far. I have 10 core/64GB RAM/Vega 64 GPU/4 TB SSD. I also have a Red Rocket-X connected via TB3 in a Sonnet box. It cuts through 8K files like a knife through hot butter. Today is literally the first time in years that I felt like my computer was helping me work faster rather than holding be back.
The performance and price of future models will just get better from this point on too. CPUs/GPUs can still improve another 2-4x. GPU performance is at a point now where the traditional workstation form factor is no longer essential. Fitting 11TFLOPs of compute power into an iMac and sustaining around 70 degrees at full load is a good achievement.
https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/comment/3020249/#Comment_3020249
Folks in Canada are also having the same issues with glass cracking because of the extreme cold temperatures and wind.
http://mashable.com/2017/12/28/arctic-blast-record-cold-us-canada-frigid-new-year/#iinuM..lDPqb
That's fine, so long as it is understood. But, if you are a pro comparing two machines and one gives 100% and the other 90%, that's over 1 month of a year in potential difference. Most people just aren't going to actually experience it because their work won't push it there enough.
A new bridge where I used to live going from Surrey BC in towards Vancouver would drop 'ice bombs' onto the roadway too. I just have to wonder if this is simply unavoidable, or if it's more a matter of the engineers not taking it into account. For example, the Nest thermostat designers clearly didn't understand a home being outside of Silicon Valley. It's probably some mixture of the two.
Do they really not understand that Silicon Valley is not only made up of brilliant minds from all over the US, but also from all over the world? Tim Cook is from Alabama and has been very vocal about the importance of immigration and DACA to the American tech industry.
Yes, but up here (northern BC, Canada) we know not to design a building with a metal roof, for example (while that might be ideal in other climates).
It uses a transistor instead of a relay, which is relatively prone to failure. You DO NOT want failure when it's -30C!!!
Also, they've pushed firmware updates mid-winter in the past, which no one thinking outside Silicon Valley would have done.
I lived for nearly a decade in San Francisco. It's amazing how quickly the bubble sucks people in (especially worldview and politically!).
As I said above, Nest pushed firmware updates mid-winter that caused some of their devices to fail. 'Nuff said.
I like the parallel though in a way. Yes, Apple should realize that some of their core apps might actually be important, and therefore give them proper attention and troubleshooting. Many use their phones as alarm clocks, so that's an app that should get considerable time, QC, testing, etc.
Given what the product is and does *should* reflect some core QC, design, and testing. For example, with a phone, you'd want stuff like making phone calls, calling 911, alarm clock, texting, etc. to be tested really, really well as those are critical functions. Then, you worry about emojis *after* you've covered the basics.
Is Apple actually designing this stuff? Or, are they passing along ideas to a real architectural firm who should know better? Or, do they have a mini architectural firm within Apple? I think the point is that these things don't seem all that unforeseeable.
This reminds me of my shellfish allergy and restaurants where they offer to pick the shrimp out of the soup. I suppose you could classify that as a mistake, but there comes a point where if you don't know what you're doing, you shouldn't be doing it.
Seems like they are giving in to a tradeoff there (building maintenance vs safety), though I don't know. But, I'm also not an architect/engineer in that discipline. There are a very few buildings and homes here with metal roofs (it isn't illegal or against building codes, apparently)... but if you ask people working in the trades or contractors, etc. they will say to avoid them, and why.