For the money, it ain't bad, definitely a better value than the Dell, but it runs Windows, it's nowhere near as cool, its thicker, and its heavier than the PowerBook.
Let's just see what Apple whips out in retaliation before we go badmouthing them. We are comparing a 5 month old portable to a brand new system.
actually there's even more cool stuff on the Toshiba that you'll just have to check out their site to appreciate.
Anyways, the reason that I post this stuff isn't because I'm lusting after one of these laptops, it's just that I really hope that Apple can bring something to the table that is price/performance and in the case of this Toshiba, feature competitive.
I can understand that one has to pay the Apple premium, but it looks like this offering from Toshiba not only beats the TiBook from a $$$ perspective but is pretty damn nice from the features standpoint as well.
Of course, the canned response will be that it doesn't look as cool, weighs ~1.6 pounds heavier, and ~.8" thicker. Whatever... YMMV but I think Apple needs to make the TiBook a bit more compelling...
Tarbash, here's my arguement: You said a P4 notebook will cost over $3600 for a 1.7GHz P4, 30GB HD, Combo Drive, and GF4MX. I specced out a system that had all of those things for $~2900. Now you go to the Dell site and add all sorts of crap-the highest res screen, max warranty, some software, XP Pro, blah blah.
My point is that a 1.7GHz P4, GF4MX, 30GB HD, and combo is not gonna cost you $3600 unless you dress it up all the way like you have. It can be had for $2900.
<strong>Tarbash, here's my arguement: You said a P4 notebook will cost over $3600 for a 1.7GHz P4, 30GB HD, Combo Drive, and GF4MX. I specced out a system that had all of those things for $~2900. Now you go to the Dell site and add all sorts of crap-the highest res screen, max warranty, some software, XP Pro, blah blah.
My point is that a 1.7GHz P4, GF4MX, 30GB HD, and combo is not gonna cost you $3600 unless you dress it up all the way like you have. It can be had for $2900.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Radar, I'm making these systems as equal as I can. Sure, I can go lower the RAM to 2 256s, but there are some people who want 1 DIMM so they can upgrade to 1 GB, etc. easier in the future. This adds to the cost obviously.
Some people want a wireless card as well, which does not come standard on many PC laptops (the Dell didn't have this). I didn't max out any warranties on the Dell, I didn't even touch them. XP Pro was actually standard as well. What I mentioned in my post was exactly what the custom system specs were on Dell's site.
Software is a big issue. I mean, if all you care about is an overhyped P4-M at 1.7 GHz, GF4MX, 30 GB HD, and a Combo drive, then go buy that setup. My point is, that with the PowerBook (even though it IS a 5 month old config) the bundeled software makes it very attractive compared to most PC laptops. You may laugh, but iTunes, iMovie, and iPhoto do add considerable value in terms of what you can do with the systems and the ease of which it can be done. Compare iMovie with Windows Movie Maker or Dell Movie Studio and you'll see what I mean.
Spec for spec I've matched the Dell and PowerBook as equal as possible, and as I said the Dell has a better processor, graphics card, and memory subsystem, but this performance gain, which isn't huge, is definitely NOT worth almost $700 more, especially when you consider the bulk of the laptop and it's design.
(Design costs $ too, and some people DO care about it. Yet the PowerBook is still way cheaper in price. )
THE VAUNTED 43% performance boost that Pentium 4 mobile chips are supposed to give over Pentium III-Ms might only apply if you're Photoshopping or Dreamweaving away, a report from ZD Net UK has warned.
And despite Intel's grave warnings about using desktop Pentium 4 CPUs in notebook setups, these type of machines are hundreds of dollars cheaper and also have reasonable battery lives, the same report suggests.
Intel incensed quite a few manufacturers by introducing its Pentium 4 mobile platform early, we reported yesterday, but the report says that a Dell Inspiron it tested showed no appreciable gains over machines using the Pentium III-M mobile microprocessor.
This was particularly true of office applications, where the Pentium III-M continues to shine.
That may be because office applications, like Microsoft Word and its ilk, are not optimised for the Screaming Sindy II extensions built into the Pentium 4 core.
Nevertheless, if you're one of the mobile warriors that have to rapidly render videos of the AMD Hammer chip - like a German journalist we saw at the Intel Developer Forum last week - a fully fledged Pentium 4M mobile may be the chip for you.
According to the review, the 1.7GHz Inspiron 8200 which Dell released earlier this week may actually lag behind so called "desktop-notebook" configurations and ZD Net said that in some tests it ran, it fell below a 1.13GHz Pentium III-M on office suites.
This is far from good news for Intel, which has rushed to deliver the Pentium 4M ahead of time. Yesterday we reported that ECS (Elitegroup) was likely to ship 100,000 notebooks, "Desknotes", using an ordinary Pentium 4 in a notebook chassis.
The review did not test the enhanced Speedstep configuration provided by the Pentium 4M, but we know of old that Dell and other manufacturers had difficulties delivering Speedstep machines for the Pentium III notebook chip.<hr></blockquote>
[quote]Radar, I'm making these systems as equal as I can. Sure, I can go lower the RAM to 2 256s, but there are some people who want 1 DIMM so they can upgrade to 1 GB, etc. easier in the future. This adds to the cost obviously. <hr></blockquote>
Okay, I didn't mean to start a Apple vs. Dell comparison. I was just pointing out that a 1.7/GF4MX/30GB/Combo could be specced out for quite a bit less than you mentioned.
a pentium 4 at 1.8 ghz beat a g4 at 933mhz 3 out of 4 times. also, the pentium 4Ms should be faster than the willamette p4s at the same mhz(the pentium4ms have 512k of cache, while the willamette only has 256k)
a g4 at 667 can only be worst than the g4 933 not only because of the 266mhz speed difference, but the laptop version doesn't have the lvl3 cache.
second, the dell could have been cheaper than the g4 if i didn't include the geforcego4. But how can i resist. the geforce4 has 128 bit ddr. what i mean by this is that up to now, mobile chips, even if they were ddr, were limited to a 64 bit bus. so that is no good, as anyone will tell you, most of the 3d games out there are bandwidth limited.
also on the dell is the very nice 1600x1200 15 inch screen, compared to the 1152x768 screen on the apple.
oh, also, there are two drives in the dell, one burner and one dvd drive. this is cheaper, but i think it's better because having two drives would allow one to burn a cd without needing to swap it, effectively cutting burn time.
I picked home edition of xp because there is no reason to pick the pro version really (i can't see any real reason for dynamic disks or remote desktop, but whatever)
overall, the dell's much more machine. i know that apple machines come with osx and iapps, but the dell has microsoft word and microsoft works and other stuff like that.
Comments
...integrated TV-out and 5.1 Dolby Digital output for connection to home theater sound systems
....plus three USB ports, a SmartMedia™ and SecureDigital (SD) slot...
Let's just see what Apple whips out in retaliation before we go badmouthing them. We are comparing a 5 month old portable to a brand new system.
Anyways, the reason that I post this stuff isn't because I'm lusting after one of these laptops, it's just that I really hope that Apple can bring something to the table that is price/performance and in the case of this Toshiba, feature competitive.
I can understand that one has to pay the Apple premium, but it looks like this offering from Toshiba not only beats the TiBook from a $$$ perspective but is pretty damn nice from the features standpoint as well.
Of course, the canned response will be that it doesn't look as cool, weighs ~1.6 pounds heavier, and ~.8" thicker. Whatever... YMMV but I think Apple needs to make the TiBook a bit more compelling...
Tarbash,
I agree with your last post. I really do hope Apple does something that will amaze me.
And this is coming from a Thinkpad user. :eek:
My point is that a 1.7GHz P4, GF4MX, 30GB HD, and combo is not gonna cost you $3600 unless you dress it up all the way like you have. It can be had for $2900.
<strong>Tarbash, here's my arguement: You said a P4 notebook will cost over $3600 for a 1.7GHz P4, 30GB HD, Combo Drive, and GF4MX. I specced out a system that had all of those things for $~2900. Now you go to the Dell site and add all sorts of crap-the highest res screen, max warranty, some software, XP Pro, blah blah.
My point is that a 1.7GHz P4, GF4MX, 30GB HD, and combo is not gonna cost you $3600 unless you dress it up all the way like you have. It can be had for $2900.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not only that, it also runs windows XP!
Oh, boy!
Some people want a wireless card as well, which does not come standard on many PC laptops (the Dell didn't have this). I didn't max out any warranties on the Dell, I didn't even touch them. XP Pro was actually standard as well. What I mentioned in my post was exactly what the custom system specs were on Dell's site.
Software is a big issue. I mean, if all you care about is an overhyped P4-M at 1.7 GHz, GF4MX, 30 GB HD, and a Combo drive, then go buy that setup. My point is, that with the PowerBook (even though it IS a 5 month old config) the bundeled software makes it very attractive compared to most PC laptops. You may laugh, but iTunes, iMovie, and iPhoto do add considerable value in terms of what you can do with the systems and the ease of which it can be done. Compare iMovie with Windows Movie Maker or Dell Movie Studio and you'll see what I mean.
Spec for spec I've matched the Dell and PowerBook as equal as possible, and as I said the Dell has a better processor, graphics card, and memory subsystem, but this performance gain, which isn't huge, is definitely NOT worth almost $700 more, especially when you consider the bulk of the laptop and it's design.
(Design costs $ too, and some people DO care about it. Yet the PowerBook is still way cheaper in price.
[ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: Tarbash ]</p>
<a href="http://www.theinquirer.net/07030205.htm"; target="_blank">Pentium 4M shows poor performance</a>
[quote]Pentium 4M shows poor performance
"Desknotes", Pentium III-Ms do well
By Mike Magee, 07/03/2002 09:23:26 BST
THE VAUNTED 43% performance boost that Pentium 4 mobile chips are supposed to give over Pentium III-Ms might only apply if you're Photoshopping or Dreamweaving away, a report from ZD Net UK has warned.
And despite Intel's grave warnings about using desktop Pentium 4 CPUs in notebook setups, these type of machines are hundreds of dollars cheaper and also have reasonable battery lives, the same report suggests.
Intel incensed quite a few manufacturers by introducing its Pentium 4 mobile platform early, we reported yesterday, but the report says that a Dell Inspiron it tested showed no appreciable gains over machines using the Pentium III-M mobile microprocessor.
This was particularly true of office applications, where the Pentium III-M continues to shine.
That may be because office applications, like Microsoft Word and its ilk, are not optimised for the Screaming Sindy II extensions built into the Pentium 4 core.
Nevertheless, if you're one of the mobile warriors that have to rapidly render videos of the AMD Hammer chip - like a German journalist we saw at the Intel Developer Forum last week - a fully fledged Pentium 4M mobile may be the chip for you.
According to the review, the 1.7GHz Inspiron 8200 which Dell released earlier this week may actually lag behind so called "desktop-notebook" configurations and ZD Net said that in some tests it ran, it fell below a 1.13GHz Pentium III-M on office suites.
This is far from good news for Intel, which has rushed to deliver the Pentium 4M ahead of time. Yesterday we reported that ECS (Elitegroup) was likely to ship 100,000 notebooks, "Desknotes", using an ordinary Pentium 4 in a notebook chassis.
The review did not test the enhanced Speedstep configuration provided by the Pentium 4M, but we know of old that Dell and other manufacturers had difficulties delivering Speedstep machines for the Pentium III notebook chip.<hr></blockquote>
[ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: janitor ]</p>
Okay, I didn't mean to start a Apple vs. Dell comparison. I was just pointing out that a 1.7/GF4MX/30GB/Combo could be specced out for quite a bit less than you mentioned.
We're done now, right?
Base: Mobile Pentium® 4 Processor, 1.7GHz-M, 15.0 Enhanced UXGA CM17BHN [220-5331]
Memory: 512MB,DDR,266M,1DIMM 512M1D [311-1356]
Video Card: 64MB DDR 4XAGP NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go? 3D Video [add $179] 17NVD64 [320-0195]
Hard Drives: 30GB Ultra ATA Hard Drive 30GB [340-3447]
Floppy Drive: Floppy Drive FD [340-6353]
Operating System: Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition WHXP [313-1041] [420-0744]
Network Adapters: Integrated Network Card INTNIC [430-0334]
Modem: Internal 56K Modem 56MDC [313-0832]
Fixed CD/DVD Drives: FREE! 16X CDRW Drive with Roxio?s Easy CD Creator® 16CDRWP [461-4753]
Wireless Networking Cards: Internal Wireless Networking Card, miniPCI (Wi-Fi Certififed) TM1150I [430-0323]
Bundle: Microsoft®Works Suite 2002 with Money 2002 Standard IWORKS [412-0134]
Modular CD/DVD Drives: 8X Max Variable DVD-ROM 8XDVD [313-0833] [313-8104]
Limited Warranty, Services and Support Options: 1Yr Ltd. Warranty- 1Yr Mail-In Service + 1Yr Phone Support ST111RR [950-3337] [950-8830] [950-9057]
Internet Access Options: 6 Months of America Online Membership Included AOLDHS [412-0183]
Digital Photography: Dell Picture Studio Image Expert® 2000 DPSXP [412-3807]
Power Protection: Notebook Surge Protector NBSURGE [114242]
and the total price is... $3,171.00
now, please note the following:
for the extra 72 dollars than the apple, it's just faster
(here are some benchmarks. of course, as with all benchmarks, don't take them as a last word, but a point of reference)
<a href="http://www.barefeats.com/pentium4.html"; target="_blank">http://www.barefeats.com/pentium4.html</a>;
a pentium 4 at 1.8 ghz beat a g4 at 933mhz 3 out of 4 times. also, the pentium 4Ms should be faster than the willamette p4s at the same mhz(the pentium4ms have 512k of cache, while the willamette only has 256k)
a g4 at 667 can only be worst than the g4 933 not only because of the 266mhz speed difference, but the laptop version doesn't have the lvl3 cache.
second, the dell could have been cheaper than the g4 if i didn't include the geforcego4. But how can i resist. the geforce4 has 128 bit ddr. what i mean by this is that up to now, mobile chips, even if they were ddr, were limited to a 64 bit bus. so that is no good, as anyone will tell you, most of the 3d games out there are bandwidth limited.
also on the dell is the very nice 1600x1200 15 inch screen, compared to the 1152x768 screen on the apple.
oh, also, there are two drives in the dell, one burner and one dvd drive. this is cheaper, but i think it's better because having two drives would allow one to burn a cd without needing to swap it, effectively cutting burn time.
I picked home edition of xp because there is no reason to pick the pro version really (i can't see any real reason for dynamic disks or remote desktop, but whatever)
overall, the dell's much more machine. i know that apple machines come with osx and iapps, but the dell has microsoft word and microsoft works and other stuff like that.
Ted