Apple developing MicroLED tech at secret facility, likely to debut in Apple Watch

24

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 66
    Other recent tech news regarding Micro LED:

    https://www.displaydaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59578:a-new-technology-for-fabricating-micro-led-microdisplays&catid=152:display-daily

    Higher yield, higher resolution, higher brightness. 5,000 ppi was achieved, with 10,000 ppi and 100,000 cd/m2 brightness within reach.

    Opens up opportunities on all sorts of displays, including AR.
  • Reply 22 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,507member

    zimmie said:
    OLED displays are a class of micro LED display.

    Compared to reflective displays (think the old GameBoy, most calculators, e-Ink Kindles, &c.) and transmissive displays (most computer LCDs, including those used in phones), micro LED displays are emissive. They create their own light as a part of how they operate. This gives them extremely deep black levels, since when a pixel is supposed to be black, you just don't turn it on.

    Organic molecules have been easiest to arrange in patterns of different colors so far, but inorganic LED fabrication technology is rapidly reaching the point of feasibility. Moving to inorganic solves some of the issues with organic, but most issues with organic have been overblown, just like issues with flash storage.
    No,they really aren’t. There are big sifferences. The first one is that microLEDs aren’t organic.
  • Reply 23 of 66
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,755member
    I wonder what happened to all the hype surrounding quantum dot displays? Not practical?
    Still heavily investigated from many different avenues.  Display technology in general is one hot area in the world of optics.  There are all sorts of techniques and processes being investigated.  

    As for Apple watch it is very possible it will be targetted with MicroLED.   However i would be surprised if the real goal is a solution for new products.  

    The other "hope" here is that Apple wises up and does manufacturing in the USA.  R&D is nice but there is a broad spectrum of people that will never navigate the world of R&D.  
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 24 of 66
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,755member

    Soli said:
    Bring it on home! Design, component manufacuture, assembly - the whole works. The pleasant and secure shape of things to come!
    There are so many reasons why it's just not feasible for something whose minerals can't be completely mined in the states all the way to needing staff in the 6 digits with 10s of thousands of parallel assembly lines.

    For even just microLED to be final manufacturing in the US it would have to be completely automated, but even then you'd still need to send all the displays to China for assembly.

    The only reason the Mac Pro could do this was because it was low volume, and even then it was just final assembly and still delayed (the latter aspect may or may not have been because they assembled in the US).

    During the most recent Xmas quarter, Apple sold slightly fewer than 80 million iPhones, about 900,000 a day. Obligingly, a day has 86,400 seconds, so we round up to 90,000 to get a production yield of ten iPhones per second.

    But producing a phone isn’t instantaneous, it isn’t like the click of the shutter in a high-speed camera. Let’s assume that it takes about 15 minutes (rounded up to 1,000 seconds) to assemble a single iPhone. How many parallel production pipes need to accumulate ten phones a second? 1,000 divided by 1/10 equals…10,000! Ten thousand parallel pipes in order to output ten phones per second.

    We can juggle the numbers, but it’s still difficult to comprehend the scale and complexity of the iPhone production machine, to build a reliable mental representation.
    PS: As an American I hope I'm dead wrong and that Apple can bring "the whole works" to the US for all their products from where they source minerals, who designs and build their machines that make their devices, etc., but I really don't see that ever happening.
    The ignorance in this post is beyond belief.   Industries here regularly import raw materials and do so at a profit.  If Apples tech requires imported materials it really isnt a big deal.   Remember these are Micro LEDs a bucket full of raw materials goes a long way.   Beyond that where do you think the production line equipment is made for many of Apples operations in China?  

    Beyond that im not sure you understand how semiconductor process lines work.    Efficiency comes from wafer size, you can literally run hundreds of chips per wafer.  Further these lines are already heavily automated due to the nature of the processes.  Manufacturing in the USA has never been a.problem even Samsung does so.   Even the cost of labor isnt a huge factor in final device cost these days.   Plant locations are more about politics.    Even within the USA plant placement is often about the political deal, just look at what Amazon is doing and hundreds of other companies have done.  

    As for Apple bringing everything here i dont see the point of doing so.   International trade is still important and frankly it is generally a good thing.  What bothers me is that Apple has the option with these new technologies of bringing employment to the USA.  Employment in fact to a class ofvworjers that have gotten royally screwed over by the policies and and practices of corporations and the federal government over the last couple of decades.    It was an act of government policy that sent millions of jobs to China, this is what so many in this forum dont understand.  
  • Reply 25 of 66
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 4,299member
    melgross said:
    Soli said:
    Bring it on home! Design, component manufacuture, assembly - the whole works. The pleasant and secure shape of things to come!
    There are so many reasons why it's just not feasible for something whose minerals can't be completely mined in the states all the way to needing staff in the 6 digits with 10s of thousands of parallel assembly lines.

    For even just microLED to be final manufacturing in the US it would have to be completely automated, but even then you'd still need to send all the displays to China for assembly.

    The only reason the Mac Pro could do this was because it was low volume, and even then it was just final assembly and still delayed (the latter aspect may or may not have been because they assembled in the US).

    During the most recent Xmas quarter, Apple sold slightly fewer than 80 million iPhones, about 900,000 a day. Obligingly, a day has 86,400 seconds, so we round up to 90,000 to get a production yield of ten iPhones per second.

    But producing a phone isn’t instantaneous, it isn’t like the click of the shutter in a high-speed camera. Let’s assume that it takes about 15 minutes (rounded up to 1,000 seconds) to assemble a single iPhone. How many parallel production pipes need to accumulate ten phones a second? 1,000 divided by 1/10 equals…10,000! Ten thousand parallel pipes in order to output ten phones per second.

    We can juggle the numbers, but it’s still difficult to comprehend the scale and complexity of the iPhone production machine, to build a reliable mental representation.
    PS: As an American I hope I'm dead wrong and that Apple can bring "the whole works" to the US for all their products from where they source minerals, who designs and build their machines that make their devices, etc., but I really don't see that ever happening.
    I see no reason why a display can’t be made here. Something like a MicroLED is similar to a chip in enough ways so that it could be done here. Only when massive numbers of people are needed is it impractical.

    and we’re manufacturing more that we ever did. This is also something people don’t understand. We took a big hit in the Bush recession, but manufacturing has made a massive comeback, but it’s not politically correct to admit it, even though the manufacturing index shows it to be true. What we don’t make that much of is small consumer facing products that do need that large number of people, such as clothing. Cheap toys as well.
    Huh?
    We haven't recovered from the 1980's when manufacturing left the country.   The Bush recession had nothing to do with manufacturing -- which had already left the country.   The Great Recession was a collapse of the financial system.  Out financial system HAS recovered.   Our industrial empire is long gone.
    StrangeDays
  • Reply 26 of 66
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 4,299member
    wizard69 said:
    I wonder what happened to all the hype surrounding quantum dot displays? Not practical?
    Still heavily investigated from many different avenues.  Display technology in general is one hot area in the world of optics.  There are all sorts of techniques and processes being investigated.  

    As for Apple watch it is very possible it will be targetted with MicroLED.   However i would be surprised if the real goal is a solution for new products.  

    The other "hope" here is that Apple wises up and does manufacturing in the USA.  R&D is nice but there is a broad spectrum of people that will never navigate the world of R&D.  
    If anybody can do it, it's Apple -- if nothing else, because their ultra high margins over straight manufacturing costs give them more leeway to absorb the high American salaries and (especially) benefits.
  • Reply 27 of 66
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,748member
    wizard69 said:

    Soli said:
    Bring it on home! Design, component manufacuture, assembly - the whole works. The pleasant and secure shape of things to come!
    There are so many reasons why it's just not feasible for something whose minerals can't be completely mined in the states all the way to needing staff in the 6 digits with 10s of thousands of parallel assembly lines.

    For even just microLED to be final manufacturing in the US it would have to be completely automated, but even then you'd still need to send all the displays to China for assembly.

    The only reason the Mac Pro could do this was because it was low volume, and even then it was just final assembly and still delayed (the latter aspect may or may not have been because they assembled in the US).

    During the most recent Xmas quarter, Apple sold slightly fewer than 80 million iPhones, about 900,000 a day. Obligingly, a day has 86,400 seconds, so we round up to 90,000 to get a production yield of ten iPhones per second.

    But producing a phone isn’t instantaneous, it isn’t like the click of the shutter in a high-speed camera. Let’s assume that it takes about 15 minutes (rounded up to 1,000 seconds) to assemble a single iPhone. How many parallel production pipes need to accumulate ten phones a second? 1,000 divided by 1/10 equals…10,000! Ten thousand parallel pipes in order to output ten phones per second.

    We can juggle the numbers, but it’s still difficult to comprehend the scale and complexity of the iPhone production machine, to build a reliable mental representation.
    PS: As an American I hope I'm dead wrong and that Apple can bring "the whole works" to the US for all their products from where they source minerals, who designs and build their machines that make their devices, etc., but I really don't see that ever happening.
    The ignorance in this post is beyond belief.   Industries here regularly import raw materials and do so at a profit.  If Apples tech requires imported materials it really isnt a big deal.   Remember these are Micro LEDs a bucket full of raw materials goes a long way.   Beyond that where do you think the production line equipment is made for many of Apples operations in China?  

    Beyond that im not sure you understand how semiconductor process lines work.    Efficiency comes from wafer size, you can literally run hundreds of chips per wafer.  Further these lines are already heavily automated due to the nature of the processes.  Manufacturing in the USA has never been a.problem even Samsung does so.   Even the cost of labor isnt a huge factor in final device cost these days.   Plant locations are more about politics.    Even within the USA plant placement is often about the political deal, just look at what Amazon is doing and hundreds of other companies have done.  

    As for Apple bringing everything here i dont see the point of doing so.   International trade is still important and frankly it is generally a good thing.  What bothers me is that Apple has the option with these new technologies of bringing employment to the USA.  Employment in fact to a class ofvworjers that have gotten royally screwed over by the policies and and practices of corporations and the federal government over the last couple of decades.    It was an act of government policy that sent millions of jobs to China, this is what so many in this forum dont understand.  
    I think it’s ignorant for you to assert that Apple can have “the whole works” in the US and then immediately jump into a statement about importing materials. Not to mention the export of a highly automated component for assembly to another country where labor is plentiful and inexpensive.
    edited March 2018
  • Reply 28 of 66
    There is one overarching reason for Apple to bring home, to the Continent, whatever in it operations are feasible.
    That reason/concern for sometime has been in the need for an environment of political, economic and technological security. Few choose to take into account the great fluidity, in the East Asian world, these days as a serious consideration for China reliant corporations, especially Apple. As an Apple fan and investor it is really too much to want to imagine or factor in. Yet, China, with its unreasonable anti democratic ways, is no longer a safe bet for Apple as a manufacturing hub, and could be whipped into further minimalization as an,accepted Chinese commodity by the many winds ablowin’.

    My belief for some time has been that Apple is in a headlong race to distribute their operations away from non native, non Central East Asian manufacturing and assembly. In my estimation, their major subcontractors in the region have had the same sense. Of course, now Taiwan is in Chinas crosshairs even more so since the President has signed just signed into law, legislation encoding significant new relationships with Taiwan, crossing a serious redline for mainland China. 

    Not to mention...the very significant implications tariff problems could/will potentially have on Apple. Those of us that consider Apple ‘to big to fail’ China or rely on the significant export advantages for China that Apple provides are not being realist in a now nativist world on both sides of the Pacific. They are, both sides, itching for a fight.

    Now, with egos on the line, Apple wants out of the way!

    Regarding the manufacture and assembly of Apple Watch.
    Robots and retrained individuals in North America are what I had in mind. And I was specifically addressing Apple Watch, a very doable segment of the overall Apple Commonwealth.

    And I see no reason beyond rare earth considerations, that Apple can not ‘move’ on to safer grounds with other major segments, if and when they choose in an organized fashion, with technology such as it is. 


  • Reply 29 of 66
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 7,314member
    wizard69 said:

    Soli said:
    Bring it on home! Design, component manufacuture, assembly - the whole works. The pleasant and secure shape of things to come!
    There are so many reasons why it's just not feasible for something whose minerals can't be completely mined in the states all the way to needing staff in the 6 digits with 10s of thousands of parallel assembly lines.

    For even just microLED to be final manufacturing in the US it would have to be completely automated, but even then you'd still need to send all the displays to China for assembly.

    The only reason the Mac Pro could do this was because it was low volume, and even then it was just final assembly and still delayed (the latter aspect may or may not have been because they assembled in the US).

    During the most recent Xmas quarter, Apple sold slightly fewer than 80 million iPhones, about 900,000 a day. Obligingly, a day has 86,400 seconds, so we round up to 90,000 to get a production yield of ten iPhones per second.

    But producing a phone isn’t instantaneous, it isn’t like the click of the shutter in a high-speed camera. Let’s assume that it takes about 15 minutes (rounded up to 1,000 seconds) to assemble a single iPhone. How many parallel production pipes need to accumulate ten phones a second? 1,000 divided by 1/10 equals…10,000! Ten thousand parallel pipes in order to output ten phones per second.

    We can juggle the numbers, but it’s still difficult to comprehend the scale and complexity of the iPhone production machine, to build a reliable mental representation.
    PS: As an American I hope I'm dead wrong and that Apple can bring "the whole works" to the US for all their products from where they source minerals, who designs and build their machines that make their devices, etc., but I really don't see that ever happening.
    As for Apple bringing everything here i dont see the point of doing so.   International trade is still important and frankly it is generally a good thing.  What bothers me is that Apple has the option with these new technologies of bringing employment to the USA.  Employment in fact to a class ofvworjers that have gotten royally screwed over by the policies and and practices of corporations and the federal government over the last couple of decades.    It was an act of government policy that sent millions of jobs to China, this is what so many in this forum dont understand.  
    Don’t leave us hanging, bro! What act prompted the executive class to save bucks by exporting US manufacturing jobs first to mexico and then to china? 
  • Reply 30 of 66
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    adm1 said:
    it's the natural progression of things…
    My Samsung senses are tingling.
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 31 of 66
    netroxnetrox Posts: 719member
    It would be more beneficial if it can be used as a laptop screen and iPad than a watch display because OLED is pretty efficient even for a watch. The majority of power consumption on watch is due to processing power, not the display. 

    Retina laptops sorely needs something like OLED or microLED in order to increase the battery lifespan. The LCD is simply not up to what I would expect from a laptop. It is not capable of being more bright without draining the battery so fast. 


  • Reply 32 of 66
    designrdesignr Posts: 500member
    I wonder what happened to all the hype surrounding quantum dot displays? Not practical?
    I think this is what Samsung QLED displays are doing.

    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 33 of 66
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    melgross said:
    Soli said:
    Bring it on home! Design, component manufacuture, assembly - the whole works. The pleasant and secure shape of things to come!
    There are so many reasons why it's just not feasible for something whose minerals can't be completely mined in the states all the way to needing staff in the 6 digits with 10s of thousands of parallel assembly lines.

    For even just microLED to be final manufacturing in the US it would have to be completely automated, but even then you'd still need to send all the displays to China for assembly.

    The only reason the Mac Pro could do this was because it was low volume, and even then it was just final assembly and still delayed (the latter aspect may or may not have been because they assembled in the US).

    During the most recent Xmas quarter, Apple sold slightly fewer than 80 million iPhones, about 900,000 a day. Obligingly, a day has 86,400 seconds, so we round up to 90,000 to get a production yield of ten iPhones per second.

    But producing a phone isn’t instantaneous, it isn’t like the click of the shutter in a high-speed camera. Let’s assume that it takes about 15 minutes (rounded up to 1,000 seconds) to assemble a single iPhone. How many parallel production pipes need to accumulate ten phones a second? 1,000 divided by 1/10 equals…10,000! Ten thousand parallel pipes in order to output ten phones per second.

    We can juggle the numbers, but it’s still difficult to comprehend the scale and complexity of the iPhone production machine, to build a reliable mental representation.
    PS: As an American I hope I'm dead wrong and that Apple can bring "the whole works" to the US for all their products from where they source minerals, who designs and build their machines that make their devices, etc., but I really don't see that ever happening.
    I see no reason why a display can’t be made here. Something like a MicroLED is similar to a chip in enough ways so that it could be done here. Only when massive numbers of people are needed is it impractical.

    and we’re manufacturing more that we ever did. This is also something people don’t understand. We took a big hit in the Bush recession, but manufacturing has made a massive comeback, but it’s not politically correct to admit it, even though the manufacturing index shows it to be true. What we don’t make that much of is small consumer facing products that do need that large number of people, such as clothing. Cheap toys as well.
    How is it not politically correct? Ho, you mean mister turd in chief has promised those jobs would come back when in fact, they're gone because of automation, not "big bad" foreigners (sic)... Well, hey/.   Yeah, the US is a manufacturing powerhouse despite what orange julep guy, aka I don't know anything guy, at the top says.

    Yeah, US companies have kept high value added productions in the US and shipped out those that's would not make it worthwhile to invest in expensive manufacturing.
    Keeping those things here would be counter productive.
    Soli
  • Reply 34 of 66
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    wizard69 said:
    I wonder what happened to all the hype surrounding quantum dot displays? Not practical?
    Still heavily investigated from many different avenues.  Display technology in general is one hot area in the world of optics.  There are all sorts of techniques and processes being investigated.  

    As for Apple watch it is very possible it will be targetted with MicroLED.   However i would be surprised if the real goal is a solution for new products.  

    The other "hope" here is that Apple wises up and does manufacturing in the USA.  R&D is nice but there is a broad spectrum of people that will never navigate the world of R&D.  
    If anybody can do it, it's Apple -- if nothing else, because their ultra high margins over straight manufacturing costs give them more leeway to absorb the high American salaries and (especially) benefits.
    The US is a manufacturing powerhouse it's just not needing as many people to produce those things.
    Most of the money from the sale of its products goes to Apple and will eventually be spent in the US, not the supply chain.

    Many of the things in the supply chain that are done abroad are done there because companies like Samsung and TSMC have devellopped the manufacturing capacity to serve not just the US, but the entire world (and they got plants doing chips in the US too of course).

    A multinational company, and a country needs to devolve part of its production to maximized efficiency and concentrate on what you do best.
    That's why tariffs are so bad, they just sustain inefficiencies and make you noncompetitive globally.
    Not only that, by having people having to pay money for this inefficiency, they're starving some more worthwhile and more forward looking area of money.
    (often used to milk money from low R&D mature industries, they're low R&D BECAUSE everyone knows there is no point to putting money there locally )

    Trying to compete on everything and reinvent the wheel locally just so you can have your own crappy special version is what we had in the 1960s and product where both much more expensive on average and thus people had a lot less stuff.

    My mother's only had 2 dresses, which cost 10 times the cost in 2018 money, her washer and dryer cost proportionally 5 times more (it was upper average, but not top end) than the a similar model in 2018 money would have.  We had one stereo, 2 speakers, 1 phonograph, a boombox, a 20 inch black & White TV, washer dryer, oven and range, 2 corded phones and that's it. No other electronics or electrical goods of any kind (that was 1970).

    My parents were working class to middle class (just in between). Nowadays, even a lower working class family has their house filled to the brink with consumer goods.

    Housing and food has followed or exceeded inflation (because they mostly CAN'T BE OUTSOURCED), but everything else has gone way way done in price.
    You can buy a damn dress for $40 that would have cost the equivalent of $250 in 2018 money in 1967; there is a reason why people fixed clothes back then.

    edited March 2018 Soli
  • Reply 35 of 66
    Am I correct in thinking that Quantum Dots could be used on top of the MicroLED display for greater color gamut ?
  • Reply 36 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,507member
    wizard69 said:

    Soli said:
    Bring it on home! Design, component manufacuture, assembly - the whole works. The pleasant and secure shape of things to come!
    There are so many reasons why it's just not feasible for something whose minerals can't be completely mined in the states all the way to needing staff in the 6 digits with 10s of thousands of parallel assembly lines.

    For even just microLED to be final manufacturing in the US it would have to be completely automated, but even then you'd still need to send all the displays to China for assembly.

    The only reason the Mac Pro could do this was because it was low volume, and even then it was just final assembly and still delayed (the latter aspect may or may not have been because they assembled in the US).

    During the most recent Xmas quarter, Apple sold slightly fewer than 80 million iPhones, about 900,000 a day. Obligingly, a day has 86,400 seconds, so we round up to 90,000 to get a production yield of ten iPhones per second.

    But producing a phone isn’t instantaneous, it isn’t like the click of the shutter in a high-speed camera. Let’s assume that it takes about 15 minutes (rounded up to 1,000 seconds) to assemble a single iPhone. How many parallel production pipes need to accumulate ten phones a second? 1,000 divided by 1/10 equals…10,000! Ten thousand parallel pipes in order to output ten phones per second.

    We can juggle the numbers, but it’s still difficult to comprehend the scale and complexity of the iPhone production machine, to build a reliable mental representation.
    PS: As an American I hope I'm dead wrong and that Apple can bring "the whole works" to the US for all their products from where they source minerals, who designs and build their machines that make their devices, etc., but I really don't see that ever happening.
    The ignorance in this post is beyond belief.   Industries here regularly import raw materials and do so at a profit.  If Apples tech requires imported materials it really isnt a big deal.   Remember these are Micro LEDs a bucket full of raw materials goes a long way.   Beyond that where do you think the production line equipment is made for many of Apples operations in China?  

    Beyond that im not sure you understand how semiconductor process lines work.    Efficiency comes from wafer size, you can literally run hundreds of chips per wafer.  Further these lines are already heavily automated due to the nature of the processes.  Manufacturing in the USA has never been a.problem even Samsung does so.   Even the cost of labor isnt a huge factor in final device cost these days.   Plant locations are more about politics.    Even within the USA plant placement is often about the political deal, just look at what Amazon is doing and hundreds of other companies have done.  

    As for Apple bringing everything here i dont see the point of doing so.   International trade is still important and frankly it is generally a good thing.  What bothers me is that Apple has the option with these new technologies of bringing employment to the USA.  Employment in fact to a class ofvworjers that have gotten royally screwed over by the policies and and practices of corporations and the federal government over the last couple of decades.    It was an act of government policy that sent millions of jobs to China, this is what so many in this forum dont understand.  
    It’s the well known cheapness of American consumers that send Jobs to China, and elsewhere, not government policy. But the USA is the second largest manufacturing country, and last year, we manufactured more things, by dollar value, than ever before. Manufacturing is far from being dead, even though it’s politically correct to say so from both the left and the right.

    most manufacturing job losses are from automation. That will just get worse. If Apple ever did bring more manufacturing back to the States, it would be because they figured out how to eliminate most of the hundreds of thousands of workers now required.

    of course, with these stupid, and dangerous new tariffs, the risk of a trade war looms. And no one wins a trade war. One of the main reasons the Great Depression was as deep and as long as it was, was because the USA began to raise tariffs, and everyone else followed, effectively halting all world trade. I just hope cooler heads prevail here, but with all of the economic advisors this president has in the White House being nationalistic trade barrier/protectionists, I’m not confident.
    apple jockeySpamSandwichsingularity
  • Reply 37 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,507member

    melgross said:
    Soli said:
    Bring it on home! Design, component manufacuture, assembly - the whole works. The pleasant and secure shape of things to come!
    There are so many reasons why it's just not feasible for something whose minerals can't be completely mined in the states all the way to needing staff in the 6 digits with 10s of thousands of parallel assembly lines.

    For even just microLED to be final manufacturing in the US it would have to be completely automated, but even then you'd still need to send all the displays to China for assembly.

    The only reason the Mac Pro could do this was because it was low volume, and even then it was just final assembly and still delayed (the latter aspect may or may not have been because they assembled in the US).

    During the most recent Xmas quarter, Apple sold slightly fewer than 80 million iPhones, about 900,000 a day. Obligingly, a day has 86,400 seconds, so we round up to 90,000 to get a production yield of ten iPhones per second.

    But producing a phone isn’t instantaneous, it isn’t like the click of the shutter in a high-speed camera. Let’s assume that it takes about 15 minutes (rounded up to 1,000 seconds) to assemble a single iPhone. How many parallel production pipes need to accumulate ten phones a second? 1,000 divided by 1/10 equals…10,000! Ten thousand parallel pipes in order to output ten phones per second.

    We can juggle the numbers, but it’s still difficult to comprehend the scale and complexity of the iPhone production machine, to build a reliable mental representation.
    PS: As an American I hope I'm dead wrong and that Apple can bring "the whole works" to the US for all their products from where they source minerals, who designs and build their machines that make their devices, etc., but I really don't see that ever happening.
    I see no reason why a display can’t be made here. Something like a MicroLED is similar to a chip in enough ways so that it could be done here. Only when massive numbers of people are needed is it impractical.

    and we’re manufacturing more that we ever did. This is also something people don’t understand. We took a big hit in the Bush recession, but manufacturing has made a massive comeback, but it’s not politically correct to admit it, even though the manufacturing index shows it to be true. What we don’t make that much of is small consumer facing products that do need that large number of people, such as clothing. Cheap toys as well.
    Huh?
    We haven't recovered from the 1980's when manufacturing left the country.   The Bush recession had nothing to do with manufacturing -- which had already left the country.   The Great Recession was a collapse of the financial system.  Out financial system HAS recovered.   Our industrial empire is long gone.
    Sorry George, but you’re wrong. While many consumer facing manufacturing left the country because of consumer cheapness and indifference, when you look at the manufacturing indexes, you’ll see that last year, we manufactured more goods than ever before. That’s just fact, and I’m not going to argue with you about it.
  • Reply 38 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,507member
    foggyhill said:
    melgross said:
    Soli said:
    Bring it on home! Design, component manufacuture, assembly - the whole works. The pleasant and secure shape of things to come!
    There are so many reasons why it's just not feasible for something whose minerals can't be completely mined in the states all the way to needing staff in the 6 digits with 10s of thousands of parallel assembly lines.

    For even just microLED to be final manufacturing in the US it would have to be completely automated, but even then you'd still need to send all the displays to China for assembly.

    The only reason the Mac Pro could do this was because it was low volume, and even then it was just final assembly and still delayed (the latter aspect may or may not have been because they assembled in the US).

    During the most recent Xmas quarter, Apple sold slightly fewer than 80 million iPhones, about 900,000 a day. Obligingly, a day has 86,400 seconds, so we round up to 90,000 to get a production yield of ten iPhones per second.

    But producing a phone isn’t instantaneous, it isn’t like the click of the shutter in a high-speed camera. Let’s assume that it takes about 15 minutes (rounded up to 1,000 seconds) to assemble a single iPhone. How many parallel production pipes need to accumulate ten phones a second? 1,000 divided by 1/10 equals…10,000! Ten thousand parallel pipes in order to output ten phones per second.

    We can juggle the numbers, but it’s still difficult to comprehend the scale and complexity of the iPhone production machine, to build a reliable mental representation.
    PS: As an American I hope I'm dead wrong and that Apple can bring "the whole works" to the US for all their products from where they source minerals, who designs and build their machines that make their devices, etc., but I really don't see that ever happening.
    I see no reason why a display can’t be made here. Something like a MicroLED is similar to a chip in enough ways so that it could be done here. Only when massive numbers of people are needed is it impractical.

    and we’re manufacturing more that we ever did. This is also something people don’t understand. We took a big hit in the Bush recession, but manufacturing has made a massive comeback, but it’s not politically correct to admit it, even though the manufacturing index shows it to be true. What we don’t make that much of is small consumer facing products that do need that large number of people, such as clothing. Cheap toys as well.
    How is it not politically correct? Ho, you mean mister turd in chief has promised those jobs would come back when in fact, they're gone because of automation, not "big bad" foreigners (sic)... Well, hey/.   Yeah, the US is a manufacturing powerhouse despite what orange julep guy, aka I don't know anything guy, at the top says.

    Yeah, US companies have kept high value added productions in the US and shipped out those that's would not make it worthwhile to invest in expensive manufacturing.
    Keeping those things here would be counter productive.
    Yes! It’s not politically correct, because no one on the left or the right wants to admit that the biggest cause of job losses are due to home grown automation, not the export of jobs elsewhere. It’s easy to blame China, India, and other places than blame the increasing, and unstoppable automation that’s cutting jobs from every area of the economy.

    look at these robot answering services companies use. Do you know that those have cut almost 200 thousand Jobs alone? Did they go to China? No, they disappeared forever. It used to take hundreds of people to weld car chassis, now robots do it (better), and about 50 people maintain the robots. Same thing with painting these cars. Same thing almost everywhere.

    We read about productivity. That used to mean that efficiencies had each worker produce more goods during a shift. Now it means that these workers are let go, and robots produce more per shift, which is a term that’s beginning to lose meaning, as robots can work almost 24/7.

    what are they going to say in 2040, when it’s expected that 70% of all jobs will be gone?
  • Reply 39 of 66
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 4,299member
    wizard69 said:

    Soli said:
    Bring it on home! Design, component manufacuture, assembly - the whole works. The pleasant and secure shape of things to come!
    There are so many reasons why it's just not feasible for something whose minerals can't be completely mined in the states all the way to needing staff in the 6 digits with 10s of thousands of parallel assembly lines.

    For even just microLED to be final manufacturing in the US it would have to be completely automated, but even then you'd still need to send all the displays to China for assembly.

    The only reason the Mac Pro could do this was because it was low volume, and even then it was just final assembly and still delayed (the latter aspect may or may not have been because they assembled in the US).

    During the most recent Xmas quarter, Apple sold slightly fewer than 80 million iPhones, about 900,000 a day. Obligingly, a day has 86,400 seconds, so we round up to 90,000 to get a production yield of ten iPhones per second.

    But producing a phone isn’t instantaneous, it isn’t like the click of the shutter in a high-speed camera. Let’s assume that it takes about 15 minutes (rounded up to 1,000 seconds) to assemble a single iPhone. How many parallel production pipes need to accumulate ten phones a second? 1,000 divided by 1/10 equals…10,000! Ten thousand parallel pipes in order to output ten phones per second.

    We can juggle the numbers, but it’s still difficult to comprehend the scale and complexity of the iPhone production machine, to build a reliable mental representation.
    PS: As an American I hope I'm dead wrong and that Apple can bring "the whole works" to the US for all their products from where they source minerals, who designs and build their machines that make their devices, etc., but I really don't see that ever happening.
    As for Apple bringing everything here i dont see the point of doing so.   International trade is still important and frankly it is generally a good thing.  What bothers me is that Apple has the option with these new technologies of bringing employment to the USA.  Employment in fact to a class ofvworjers that have gotten royally screwed over by the policies and and practices of corporations and the federal government over the last couple of decades.    It was an act of government policy that sent millions of jobs to China, this is what so many in this forum dont understand.  
    Don’t leave us hanging, bro! What act prompted the executive class to save bucks by exporting US manufacturing jobs first to mexico and then to china? 
    It was triggered when the American Steel and (to lesser extent) auto industries were decapitated by Japan in the 80's.

    We tried protectionism all through the 70's and 80's.   But it failed.
    At that point, the "executive class" realized that they had two choices:
    1)  Move manufacturing out of the country
    2)  Bankruptcy
  • Reply 40 of 66
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,748member
    melgross said:
    Yes! It’s not politically correct, because no one on the left or the right wants to admit that the biggest cause of job losses are due to home grown automation, not the export of jobs elsewhere. It’s easy to blame China, India, and other places than blame the increasing, and unstoppable automation that’s cutting jobs from every area of the economy.
    What?! I thought everyone was saying that. It only seems like the fringe nut jobs that want to say…




    edit: If you google automation in us you can find articles from any left or right publication.
    edited March 2018
Sign In or Register to comment.