DuhSesame said: One thing I'm not sure is do they acknowledge the issue in the keyboard even back then, and this update will certainly address that. Other than that, I really think they should upgrade the spec of the screen somehow, like HDR and 120Hz ProMotion.
Sometimes they do mention when they feel they have revised something people have been complaining about. They might make a little joke of it and then introduce version 3 keyboard or something like that.
If this is true it shows Apple has the worst product update strategy in the whole business and are taking their customers for granted. The MacBook Pro's have processors that are 2 generations behind! Dell and others have introduced 8th gen intel processors months ago. Apple is a like a slow moving dinosaur. What is wrong with a MacBook Pro update every 8 to 12 months? We deserve better than this......
If there's nothing significant to update the MacBook Pro to then what should Apple do? Apple should just update the MacBook Pro for the sake of just saying we updated it?
But there is something to update MacBook Pro's with... the 8th gen of intel processors which are much faster than the 6th and 7th generations. The 8th gen devices were released in October of last year and updated in April of this year! IF it is true that MacBook Pro's won't be updated at WWDC then it would be a wasted opportunity to get these devices to be competitive. Apple used to move quickly when updating Mac devices. We can see with the Mac Mini and others that this desire has gone. They are no longer hungry.
A generation of Intel chips get released in stages over a year or longer. SOME 8th gen processors are already out. That doesn’t mean the chipsets that would be appropriate for a MBP are out. The hexacores that many think might be the next MBP chip are just now or about to ship.
Dell has six core processors out in their XPS 15 right now. As someone who is watching their 2011 MacBook Pro slowly die, it’s killing me that Apple is dragging their feet on releasing models with the new processors. If Apple is not ready to release an eighth generation Intel MacBook Pro, maybe they can at least lower the price on the current model so they are more in line with where they should be. The price was at a premium for the seventh generation, and look even worse now that they are outdated.
They’re still brand new chips, and you don’t know that they’re not waiting on the availability or completion of some other component, such as GPUs, a more reliable keyboard, higher res OLED displays, yields on Face ID, etc. Any combination of those things would be worth waiting for if it were a marked improvement in addition to the hexacores. I’m in the same boat with my 2011 and it’s fourth logic board, so I’m anxious to see what they come up with this year as well. Hopefully we won’t have to wait terribly long.
fastasleep said: They’re still brand new chips, and you don’t know that they’re not waiting on the availability or completion of some other component, such as GPUs, a more reliable keyboard, higher res OLED displays, yields on Face ID, etc. Any combination of those things would be worth waiting for if it were a marked improvement in addition to the hexacores. I’m in the same boat with my 2011 and it’s fourth logic board, so I’m anxious to see what they come up with this year as well. Hopefully we won’t have to wait terribly long.
And, yesterday's event would have been an ideal time to say something about it, even if they won't actually be released for a month or two. Given the popularity of MBPs with developers, how many in the audience at the event would have loved some news on that front?
fastasleep said: They’re still brand new chips, and you don’t know that they’re not waiting on the availability or completion of some other component, such as GPUs, a more reliable keyboard, higher res OLED displays, yields on Face ID, etc. Any combination of those things would be worth waiting for if it were a marked improvement in addition to the hexacores. I’m in the same boat with my 2011 and it’s fourth logic board, so I’m anxious to see what they come up with this year as well. Hopefully we won’t have to wait terribly long.
And, yesterday's event would have been an ideal time to say something about it, even if they won't actually be released for a month or two. Given the popularity of MBPs with developers, how many in the audience at the event would have loved some news on that front?
Are you new here? Apple does things at their own pace, because reasons. They’re not ready yet. Get over it.
fastasleep said: Are you new here? Apple does things at their own pace, because reasons. They’re not ready yet. Get over it.
Yes, but that doesn't mean they are good reasons. And, I've always complained when I felt Apple was doing something wrong. The difference is, those complaints used to be few enough that people thought me a fanboy. Now, they think I'm a troll, I suppose. I haven't changed my expectations or criteria much. Apple is the one that changed.
fastasleep said: Are you new here? Apple does things at their own pace, because reasons. They’re not ready yet. Get over it.
Yes, but that doesn't mean they are good reasons. And, I've always complained when I felt Apple was doing something wrong. The difference is, those complaints used to be few enough that people thought me a fanboy. Now, they think I'm a troll, I suppose. I haven't changed my expectations or criteria much. Apple is the one that changed.
So you'd be happy if Phil came stumbling out looking like he hadn't slept in days and spent a couple minutes telling everyone how they're working on new hardware but none of it's ready to show off yet?
fastasleep said: So you'd be happy if Phil came stumbling out looking like he hadn't slept in days and spent a couple minutes telling everyone how they're working on new hardware but none of it's ready to show off yet?
Well, not exactly like that, but somewhat, yes. Apple could have easily cut 30 minutes of cruft from that show to actually give people an update on the state of the Mac. If they really didn't have new hardware quite ready, maybe a brief why and rough timeframe. (But, there is no good excuse I can think of for not having it ready... can you?)
The problem is, I think, that Apple doesn't actually see the situation as that important. In the mind of upper-management, the Mac is that little pie-slice, and they haven't quite made the connection that that whole room of people sitting in front of the stage cares deeply about that little pie-slice.
(Note: I don't agree with some of the points made in these articles, but provide them to show I wasn't the only one completely underwhelmed with the keynote.)
fastasleep said: So you'd be happy if Phil came stumbling out looking like he hadn't slept in days and spent a couple minutes telling everyone how they're working on new hardware but none of it's ready to show off yet?
Also, thought maybe I should tell the kind of thing I would have been happy with...
Tim comes out on stage and says... "This year, as many of you know, we are going to be working hard on all of our OSs, improving speed, stability, and QC. We'll also be refining our UIs to be in compliance with our reputation and history of UI excellence. To that end, we have no new features to show you, so I'm going to talk some about what our vision for the future of our product lines is..." (30 minute talk)
Phil comes on stage... "We know that you as developers, have special interest in the Mac even though it is no longer the biggest part of our revenue. We want to reassure you that we still deeply care about the Mac, so I'm going to talk about ...." (new hardware, or what's coming and roughly when - 30 minutes talk)
Tim returns... I hope what we've told you this morning has been helpful and encouraging about Apple's bright future. Now, enjoy the this free Taylor Swift concert before you head to your breakout sessions.
Then, I'd be saying... best WWDC ever (well, I'd prefer another band at the end, but you get the point.)
The problem for me was what they didn't show, and the baloney they decided was important enough to fill time with.
(Note: I don't agree with some of the points made in these articles, but provide them to show I wasn't the only one completely underwhelmed with the keynote.)
fastasleep said: So you'd be happy if Phil came stumbling out looking like he hadn't slept in days and spent a couple minutes telling everyone how they're working on new hardware but none of it's ready to show off yet?
Also, thought maybe I should tell the kind of thing I would have been happy with...
Tim comes out on stage and says... "This year, as many of you know, we are going to be working hard on all of our OSs, improving speed, stability, and QC. We'll also be refining our UIs to be in compliance with our reputation and history of UI excellence. To that end, we have no new features to show you, so I'm going to talk some about what our vision for the future of our product lines is..." (30 minute talk)
Phil comes on stage... "We know that you as developers, have special interest in the Mac even though it is no longer the biggest part of our revenue. We want to reassure you that we still deeply care about the Mac, so I'm going to talk about ...." (new hardware, or what's coming and roughly when - 30 minutes talk)
Tim returns... I hope what we've told you this morning has been helpful and encouraging about Apple's bright future. Now, enjoy the this free Taylor Swift concert before you head to your breakout sessions.
Then, I'd be saying... best WWDC ever (well, I'd prefer another band at the end, but you get the point.)
The problem for me was what they didn't show, and the baloney they decided was important enough to fill time with.
You and they are wrong and you should move on to some other platform. Quickly. Before the benefits of the new Mac Pro comes.
MacOS isn't dead or in its twilight years. Mac hardware isn't dead or in its twilight years. Apple has access to Intel's roadmap and my prediction is that Macs and MacOS are going to see significant architectual advances in 2019-2024 timeframe.
Apple is well positioned in terms of controlling the entire stack of application, OS and hardware for the Mac Pro to adopt a new computing paradigm. If the Mac Pro, MacOS and FCPX are designed for NVDIMMs out the gate then editors will flock to the 2019 MP and iMac Pro.
nht said: You and they are wrong and you should move on to some other platform. Quickly. Before the benefits of the new Mac Pro comes.
MacOS isn't dead or in its twilight years. Mac hardware isn't dead or in its twilight years. Apple has access to Intel's roadmap and my prediction is that Macs and MacOS are going to see significant architectual advances in 2019-2024 timeframe.
Apple is well positioned in terms of controlling the entire stack of application, OS and hardware for the Mac Pro to adopt a new computing paradigm. If the Mac Pro, MacOS and FCPX are designed for NVDIMMs out the gate then editors will flock to the 2019 MP and iMac Pro.
I appreciate the optimism, but it will take more than a new kind of storage. The question, IMO, is Apple's commitment to the Mac, not whether the Mac could be a very successful platform. If they have such future plans, their behavior and what they say aren't matching it.
As for moving quickly... to where? I'm hoping you are correct, because if not, the future doesn't look to bright for anyone but consumers happy with emojis. Windows is improving, but it's no picnic over there either. And, I have a huge time/software cost to making the jump, but I need some solution/direction... which is contributing to my personal displeasure (aside from my professional opinion of the state of things).
I hope the new Mac Pro is great. It will likely be out of my price range initially. But, my concerns are much bigger than the Mac Pro.
(But, there is no good excuse I can think of for not having it ready... can you?)
The problem is, I think, that Apple doesn't actually see the situation as that important. In the mind of upper-management, the Mac is that little pie-slice, and they haven't quite made the connection that that whole room of people sitting in front of the stage cares deeply about that little pie-slice.
If you can't think of a *reason* (not "excuse"), you completely lack any imagination at all and have no idea how these products are developed. I already gave a list of reasons why things might not be ready. Components, technology, testing, so forth. Just examples. We know with near certainty that we can expect updates the MacBook, MacBook Pro, and iMac lines this year, at some point when they're ready. We know already the Mac Pro is 2019 material. New displays we can rightly assume are potentially this year alongside a MacBook Pro refresh, or next year with the Mac Pro, or somewhere in between. I mean they've been on the record already this year on the Mac Pro to explain what they're doping and regulate expectations. There's not much to pre-announce on the others that make a difference in advance of them being ready. So: The only real valid question mark in the Mac lineup is the mini, which is anyone's guess. That's the only thing they could really come out and talk about that they haven't already. And it's not a big mover, so who cares? We'll find out soon enough if there's a future for that thing.
The room full of people you're talking about probably nearly all own newish Macs and use them every day to make a living and pay for their ticket to WWDC, where they expect to learn primarily about Mac software, which they are covering by and large throughout the week. Your perception is myopic and not representative.
Tim comes out on stage and says... "[...] we have no new features to show you, so I'm going to talk some about what our vision for the future of our product lines is..."
Phil comes on stage... "We know that you as developers, have special interest in the Mac even though it is no longer the biggest part of our revenue. We want to reassure you that we still deeply care about the Mac, so I'm going to talk about ...." (new hardware, or what's coming and roughly when - 30 minutes talk)
Your Tim thing about "no new features" is false on its face, they covered new features for OVER TWO HOURS. Phil coming out and telling you oh hey, we're updating the MacBooks and iMacs in October would be something that Apple would never ever do unless there's a compelling reason, and I don't even know what to tell you if you think they'd ever even think this was necessary.
The question, IMO, is Apple's commitment to the Mac, not whether the Mac could be a very successful platform. If they have such future plans, their behavior and what they say aren't matching it.
As for moving quickly... to where? I'm hoping you are correct, because if not, the future doesn't look to bright for anyone but consumers happy with emojis.
JFC. What more commitment could you possibly want than the iMac Pro and a complete dedication to re-thinking the Mac Pro from the ground up along with new displays. If there was anything that should've killed the "Mac is becoming a toy" mentality it should've been both of those things. They are talking the talk and walking the walk.
As far as your emojis comment... I'm not convinced you even use your Mac for real work anymore. Nobody else seems to be having as much trouble as you are getting over little features like that which you don't even need to use, but a billion other people do.
fastasleep said: If you can't think of a *reason* (not "excuse"), you completely lack any imagination at all and have no idea how these products are developed. I already gave a list of reasons why things might not be ready. Components, technology, testing, so forth.
Then, how are so many other manufacturers able to get the equipment out? How long would it take Apple to put the new Intel CPU into their existing laptops? It can't be all that hard to update the Mini. Do you have any compelling specific excuse? How about using your imagination to come up with one?
fastasleep said: The only real valid question mark in the Mac lineup is the mini, which is anyone's guess. That's the only thing they could really come out and talk about that they haven't already. And it's not a big mover, so who cares? We'll find out soon enough if there's a future for that thing.
What about the laptops? iMac? But, yes the Mini is of specific concern seeing as it is the most out of date, as well as huge hole in the lineup. Maybe times have changed, but the Mini was (until Apple nerf'd it and failed to update it, yet retain a high cost) pretty popular with developers. As far as 'moving' if you fail to update it and keep the price high, that's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy there.
I'm doubting a good percentage of developers can afford an iMac Pro, let alone have a few extras sitting around as test machines. The Mini was perfect for that kind of thing.
Heh, it isn't quite that easy. The point was to show you a spectrum of people who share my opinion, some of them pretty prominent Apple figures. It's not just some crazy opinion of a forum troll (as I've apparently been branded).
fastasleep said: Your Tim thing about "no new features" is false on its face, they covered new features for OVER TWO HOURS. Phil coming out and telling you oh hey, we're updating the MacBooks and iMacs in October would be something that Apple would never ever do unless there's a compelling reason, and I don't even know what to tell you if you think they'd ever even think this was necessary.
I was saying what I'd have liked to hear, given your context of saying they had no time because it was a filled 2.5 hour show already. I didn't need new features or expect them, as they are supposed to be focusing on speed, stability, QC, etc. Any new feature is a distraction from that. And, a majority of these new features they showed weren't worth the time spent showing them, IMO.
re: Phil - if they weren't so darn far behind, then no one would want that from them. I never expected that from the old-Apple, because I had the latest and greatest and didn't mind being surprised at the next keynote. Now, I'm trying to figure out what to do, so any news they could give me would help me make decisions. I'm not the only one in this position, either.... including many of those developers you're so keen on.
fastasleep said: What more commitment could you possibly want than the iMac Pro and a complete dedication to re-thinking the Mac Pro from the ground up along with new displays. If there was anything that should've killed the "Mac is becoming a toy" mentality it should've been both of those things. They are talking the talk and walking the walk.
As far as your emojis comment... I'm not convinced you even use your Mac for real work anymore. Nobody else seems to be having as much trouble as you are getting over little features like that which you don't even need to use, but a billion other people do.
Some prosumer Macs? Is macOS getting the same speed and QC treatment as iOS? Are they just holding Mac users over until they can move them to iOS, or does the Mac have a long-term future? Is the Mini really important to Apple, or is that just talk? Are they planning on keeping the Mac or just not merging it with iOS? Are the creatives and the Mac more important to Apple than a 12% pie-slice?
re: emojis - I have no issue with emojis. I use them from time to time and my wife and son seem to enjoy them. But they aren't serious features for propping up a show, nor is stuff like AR sling-shots or Lego games or device/app/time-usage info or tongue detection or mimojis (how long did they spend on that?) or photos search suggestions or Facebook-like photo reminders or quick-look markup or Finder gallery views or Stacks or Dolby Atmos, etc. etc. All that stuff belongs buried in a feature update list somewhere, not taking valuable keynote time. It's frivolous stuff. (Again, this is in context of the keynote being too full of important stuff to address the Mac appropriately. I guess if this is all they had, then that's all they can show. They should have had more such that this stuff wouldn't have made the priority list.)
What billion other people? I thought you said it was a developers conference. Are you now saying this was really a show for the iPhone using masses? If so, then I agree... but it should be for the developers, hence be more focused on the Mac and significant iOS/macOS, etc features.
fastasleep said: If you can't think of a *reason* (not "excuse"), you completely lack any imagination at all and have no idea how these products are developed. I already gave a list of reasons why things might not be ready. Components, technology, testing, so forth.
Then, how are so many other manufacturers able to get the equipment out? How long would it take Apple to put the new Intel CPU into their existing laptops? It can't be all that hard to update the Mini. Do you have any compelling specific excuse? How about using your imagination to come up with one?
How do you know the particular Intel chipsets that Apple wants to use in (x) are shipping yet in yields for a release? How do you know they're not waiting on AMD to produce a particular variant of the Vega GPU that's not out yet? How do you know they're not finished developing and testing a new display tech like OLED displays for the MacBook Pro or a larger iMac? How do you know they're not done or satisfied with reliability testing for a revised MacBook Pro keyboard? How do you know they're not working on getting True Depth cameras to yields big enough for the new iPhones, iPads, and Macs all this year? How do you know it's not something we haven't even thought of because it's brand new technology? How do you know it's not any combination of these things or any other things?
The Whataboutism™ with regard to PC manufacturers and the fact you think they're literally unable to update their hardware because a chipset is out in some Windows box shows that you really have no clue how Apple operates internally. Which, of course, is weird given your "30+ years of Mac evangelism".
fastasleep said: If you can't think of a *reason* (not "excuse"), you completely lack any imagination at all and have no idea how these products are developed. I already gave a list of reasons why things might not be ready. Components, technology, testing, so forth.
Then, how are so many other manufacturers able to get the equipment out? How long would it take Apple to put the new Intel CPU into their existing laptops? It can't be all that hard to update the Mini. Do you have any compelling specific excuse? How about using your imagination to come up with one?
fastasleep said: The only real valid question mark in the Mac lineup is the mini, which is anyone's guess. That's the only thing they could really come out and talk about that they haven't already. And it's not a big mover, so who cares? We'll find out soon enough if there's a future for that thing.
What about the laptops? iMac? But, yes the Mini is of specific concern seeing as it is the most out of date, as well as huge hole in the lineup. Maybe times have changed, but the Mini was (until Apple nerf'd it and failed to update it, yet retain a high cost) pretty popular with developers. As far as 'moving' if you fail to update it and keep the price high, that's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy there.
MacBook Days since last release: 366 Average: 394
MacBook Pro Days since last release: 366 Average: 303
iMac Days since last release: 366 Average: 371
Look at those numbers and tell me your anxiety is warranted. They are COMING, probably sooner than later. You really need to find something else to obsess over, it's unhealthy.
I honestly don't know what's up with the mini, but that certainly doesn't constitute an emergency for me. Either they've got a massive redesign/rethinking coming, or maybe nothing at all. *shrug* I also think that they're not going to release one until there are new displays ready, which could also get released alongside new MacBooks this summer or fall.
fastasleep said: How do you know the particular Intel chipsets that Apple wants to use in (x) are shipping yet in yields for a release? How do you know they're not waiting on AMD to produce a particular variant of the Vega GPU that's not out yet? How do you know they're not finished developing and testing a new display tech like OLED displays for the MacBook Pro or a larger iMac? How do you know they're not done or satisfied with reliability testing for a revised MacBook Pro keyboard? How do you know they're not working on getting True Depth cameras to yields big enough for the new iPhones, iPads, and Macs all this year? How do you know it's not something we haven't even thought of because it's brand new technology? How do you know it's not any combination of these things or any other things?
The Whataboutism™ with regard to PC manufacturers and the fact you think they're literally unable to update their hardware because a chipset is out in some Windows box shows that you really have no clue how Apple operates internally. Which, of course, is weird given your "30+ years of Mac evangelism".
Most of those things (other than chip yields), aren't things needed to keep a lineup up-to-date. If they are waiting for something for the 'next big thing' in terms of a new design, then I'm happy to wait until it's all ready. But, don't leave years old tech in a product line just because maybe someday you'll eventually get around fully re-designing it. And, yields shouldn't be a problem for anything aside from their biggest sellers... certainly that isn't the holdup for the Mini. (And, it wouldn't be the hold-up for the Mac Pro if they hadn't decided it would take 6 years to plan some new master re-design.)
And, given my 30+ years of Apple evangelism... it's only the last few years that I've had to worry about stuff like this. Hence, my complaining! Even in Apple's 'dark years' I always felt cutting edge and enough more productive to justify the higher prices paid. I wasn't constantly hit with a degrading UI experience, or really poor software/hardware design choices. I wasn't constantly trying to find work-around or fixes to stuff that previously worked, or should obviously work better.
fastasleep said: Look at those numbers and tell me your anxiety is warranted. They are COMING, probably sooner than later. You really need to find something else to obsess over, it's unhealthy.
I honestly don't know what's up with the mini, but that certainly doesn't constitute an emergency for me. Either they've got a massive redesign/rethinking coming, or maybe nothing at all. *shrug* I also think that they're not going to release one until there are new displays ready, which could also get released alongside new MacBooks this summer or fall.
The reason I think my anxiety is warranted (besides having to make decisions, personally, right now or soon... I just ordered my son '17 MBP tonight, for example), is because there are some obvious advances they could make by updating (fixing things that used to now be an issue). For example, you used to be able to get many more Mac models in quad-core that now only come dual-core. Intel has new CPUs that fix this. Or, some models need updated ports so that they can be used with eGPUs (because Apple decided to limit eGPU use to only TB3). Stuff like that which is easy to solve with simple updates.
re: Mini - Thanks for the insights. I'm not sure I can wait that long (fall), but we'll see. The display thing makes some sense, but IMO, there is no good excuse for not keeping it at least on a 2-year update cycle and THEN do a major update to go along with that display, for example. It becomes more personal for me and others who have no good non-Pro desktop solution from Apple. As previously mentioned, I'm going to have to over-spend on an out-of-date Mac Pro because it's the only option. I shouldn't have to do that. (And, I think there are more people than you give credit for in that same situation. Joke about the xMac all you like, but regardless of what such a system should look like, it fils a huge hole in Apple's lineup.)
And, given my 30+ years of Apple evangelism... it's only the last few years that I've had to worry about stuff like this. Hence, my complaining! Even in Apple's 'dark years' I always felt cutting edge and enough more productive to justify the higher prices paid. I wasn't constantly hit with a degrading UI experience, or really poor software/hardware design choices. I wasn't constantly trying to find work-around or fixes to stuff that previously worked, or should obviously work better.
Please. I've been using Macs since the SE/30. If you honestly think we have a "degraded UI experience" you're crazy. What parallel universe do you live in where Classic Mac OS was better in any way? Or that earlier versions of OS X were markedly more functional than what we have today? Ridiculous. I literally have not once ever wanted to go backwards, and I've worked in the OS nearly every day for the last 30+ years myself. The past SUCKED in comparison. There were no rose-tinted glory years, you just don't like change.
Joke about the xMac all you like, but regardless of what such a system should look like, it fils a huge hole in Apple's lineup.)
OHHHHH, you're one of those xMac, the invisible never gonna happen more-than-a-mini and not-quite-a-pro but not-an-iMac-because-I-want-a-separate-monitor project people. Got it. I'm done here.
fastasleep said: Please. I've been using Macs since the SE/30. If you honestly think we have a "degraded UI experience" you're crazy. What parallel universe do you live in where Classic Mac OS was better in any way? Or that earlier versions of OS X were markedly more functional than what we have today? Ridiculous. I literally have not once ever wanted to go backwards, and I've worked in the OS nearly every day for the last 30+ years myself. The past SUCKED in comparison. There were no rose-tinted glory years, you just don't like change.
Of course we can't just go back to the 'good ol days' because technology keeps moving on. That doesn't mean all the changes are positive, though. So yea, I'd absolutely trade some aspects of of UI from the past for 'improvements' Apple made more recently if they could be set in the current context.
fastasleep said: OHHHHH, you're one of those xMac, the invisible never gonna happen more-than-a-mini and not-quite-a-pro but not-an-iMac-because-I-want-a-separate-monitor project people. Got it. I'm done here.
No, I'm just one of those... Apple should have a non-Pro desktop at a semi-reasonable price kind of people.
fastasleep said: If you can't think of a *reason* (not "excuse"), you completely lack any imagination at all and have no idea how these products are developed. I already gave a list of reasons why things might not be ready. Components, technology, testing, so forth.
Then, how are so many other manufacturers able to get the equipment out? How long would it take Apple to put the new Intel CPU into their existing laptops? It can't be all that hard to update the Mini. Do you have any compelling specific excuse? How about using your imagination to come up with one?
How do you know the particular Intel chipsets that Apple wants to use in (x) are shipping yet in yields for a release? How do you know they're not waiting on AMD to produce a particular variant of the Vega GPU that's not out yet? How do you know they're not finished developing and testing a new display tech like OLED displays for the MacBook Pro or a larger iMac? How do you know they're not done or satisfied with reliability testing for a revised MacBook Pro keyboard? How do you know they're not working on getting True Depth cameras to yields big enough for the new iPhones, iPads, and Macs all this year? How do you know it's not something we haven't even thought of because it's brand new technology? How do you know it's not any combination of these things or any other things?
The Whataboutism™ with regard to PC manufacturers and the fact you think they're literally unable to update their hardware because a chipset is out in some Windows box shows that you really have no clue how Apple operates internally. Which, of course, is weird given your "30+ years of Mac evangelism".
fastasleep said: If you can't think of a *reason* (not "excuse"), you completely lack any imagination at all and have no idea how these products are developed. I already gave a list of reasons why things might not be ready. Components, technology, testing, so forth.
Then, how are so many other manufacturers able to get the equipment out? How long would it take Apple to put the new Intel CPU into their existing laptops? It can't be all that hard to update the Mini. Do you have any compelling specific excuse? How about using your imagination to come up with one?
fastasleep said: The only real valid question mark in the Mac lineup is the mini, which is anyone's guess. That's the only thing they could really come out and talk about that they haven't already. And it's not a big mover, so who cares? We'll find out soon enough if there's a future for that thing.
What about the laptops? iMac? But, yes the Mini is of specific concern seeing as it is the most out of date, as well as huge hole in the lineup. Maybe times have changed, but the Mini was (until Apple nerf'd it and failed to update it, yet retain a high cost) pretty popular with developers. As far as 'moving' if you fail to update it and keep the price high, that's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy there.
MacBook Days since last release: 366 Average: 394
MacBook Pro Days since last release: 366 Average: 303
iMac Days since last release: 366 Average: 371
Look at those numbers and tell me your anxiety is warranted. They are COMING, probably sooner than later. You really need to find something else to obsess over, it's unhealthy.
I honestly don't know what's up with the mini, but that certainly doesn't constitute an emergency for me. Either they've got a massive redesign/rethinking coming, or maybe nothing at all. *shrug* I also think that they're not going to release one until there are new displays ready, which could also get released alongside new MacBooks this summer or fall.
MacBook Pros used to be around 200-250 days average, and since this WWDC haven’t mentioned anything hardware related, it will be another 500 days at least. That’s pretty slow compared to the past.
Not to mention, Macs today are getting more unreliable, lacking serious updates for major variants, and most importantly Apple just being completely slient about it like there’s nothing wrong with their hardware. It’s not about the new design that people didn’t like — I think most changes are positive, but then nobody wants to have a nicely-designed defective keyboard, or a brand new specs that’s almost obsolete.
fastasleep said: Please. I've been using Macs since the SE/30. If you honestly think we have a "degraded UI experience" you're crazy. What parallel universe do you live in where Classic Mac OS was better in any way? Or that earlier versions of OS X were markedly more functional than what we have today? Ridiculous. I literally have not once ever wanted to go backwards, and I've worked in the OS nearly every day for the last 30+ years myself. The past SUCKED in comparison. There were no rose-tinted glory years, you just don't like change.
Of course we can't just go back to the 'good ol days' because technology keeps moving on. That doesn't mean all the changes are positive, though. So yea, I'd absolutely trade some aspects of of UI from the past for 'improvements' Apple made more recently if they could be set in the current context.
fastasleep said: OHHHHH, you're one of those xMac, the invisible never gonna happen more-than-a-mini and not-quite-a-pro but not-an-iMac-because-I-want-a-separate-monitor project people. Got it. I'm done here.
No, I'm just one of those... Apple should have a non-Pro desktop at a semi-reasonable price kind of people.
I don’t think the UI have degraded, why did you think of that?
(Note: I don't agree with some of the points made in these articles, but provide them to show I wasn't the only one completely underwhelmed with the keynote.)
fastasleep said: So you'd be happy if Phil came stumbling out looking like he hadn't slept in days and spent a couple minutes telling everyone how they're working on new hardware but none of it's ready to show off yet?
Also, thought maybe I should tell the kind of thing I would have been happy with...
Tim comes out on stage and says... "This year, as many of you know, we are going to be working hard on all of our OSs, improving speed, stability, and QC. We'll also be refining our UIs to be in compliance with our reputation and history of UI excellence. To that end, we have no new features to show you, so I'm going to talk some about what our vision for the future of our product lines is..." (30 minute talk)
Phil comes on stage... "We know that you as developers, have special interest in the Mac even though it is no longer the biggest part of our revenue. We want to reassure you that we still deeply care about the Mac, so I'm going to talk about ...." (new hardware, or what's coming and roughly when - 30 minutes talk)
Tim returns... I hope what we've told you this morning has been helpful and encouraging about Apple's bright future. Now, enjoy the this free Taylor Swift concert before you head to your breakout sessions.
Then, I'd be saying... best WWDC ever (well, I'd prefer another band at the end, but you get the point.)
The problem for me was what they didn't show, and the baloney they decided was important enough to fill time with.
So far as I know, comments were pretty positive about Mojave beta. It don’t have to be tons of new features, fixing some of the most basic things to me is still a solid upgrade.
Comments
They’re still brand new chips, and you don’t know that they’re not waiting on the availability or completion of some other component, such as GPUs, a more reliable keyboard, higher res OLED displays, yields on Face ID, etc. Any combination of those things would be worth waiting for if it were a marked improvement in addition to the hexacores. I’m in the same boat with my 2011 and it’s fourth logic board, so I’m anxious to see what they come up with this year as well. Hopefully we won’t have to wait terribly long.
Given the popularity of MBPs with developers, how many in the audience at the event would have loved some news on that front?
The problem is, I think, that Apple doesn't actually see the situation as that important. In the mind of upper-management, the Mac is that little pie-slice, and they haven't quite made the connection that that whole room of people sitting in front of the stage cares deeply about that little pie-slice.
(Note: I don't agree with some of the points made in these articles, but provide them to show I wasn't the only one completely underwhelmed with the keynote.)
Also, thought maybe I should tell the kind of thing I would have been happy with...
Tim comes out on stage and says... "This year, as many of you know, we are going to be working hard on all of our OSs, improving speed, stability, and QC. We'll also be refining our UIs to be in compliance with our reputation and history of UI excellence. To that end, we have no new features to show you, so I'm going to talk some about what our vision for the future of our product lines is..." (30 minute talk)
Phil comes on stage... "We know that you as developers, have special interest in the Mac even though it is no longer the biggest part of our revenue. We want to reassure you that we still deeply care about the Mac, so I'm going to talk about ...." (new hardware, or what's coming and roughly when - 30 minutes talk)
Tim returns... I hope what we've told you this morning has been helpful and encouraging about Apple's bright future. Now, enjoy the this free Taylor Swift concert before you head to your breakout sessions.
Then, I'd be saying... best WWDC ever (well, I'd prefer another band at the end, but you get the point.)
The problem for me was what they didn't show, and the baloney they decided was important enough to fill time with.
MacOS isn't dead or in its twilight years. Mac hardware isn't dead or in its twilight years. Apple has access to Intel's roadmap and my prediction is that Macs and MacOS are going to see significant architectual advances in 2019-2024 timeframe.
Apple is well positioned in terms of controlling the entire stack of application, OS and hardware for the Mac Pro to adopt a new computing paradigm. If the Mac Pro, MacOS and FCPX are designed for NVDIMMs out the gate then editors will flock to the 2019 MP and iMac Pro.
As for moving quickly... to where? I'm hoping you are correct, because if not, the future doesn't look to bright for anyone but consumers happy with emojis. Windows is improving, but it's no picnic over there either. And, I have a huge time/software cost to making the jump, but I need some solution/direction... which is contributing to my personal displeasure (aside from my professional opinion of the state of things).
I hope the new Mac Pro is great. It will likely be out of my price range initially. But, my concerns are much bigger than the Mac Pro.
The room full of people you're talking about probably nearly all own newish Macs and use them every day to make a living and pay for their ticket to WWDC, where they expect to learn primarily about Mac software, which they are covering by and large throughout the week. Your perception is myopic and not representative.
Good, you found your people. Go to them!
Your Tim thing about "no new features" is false on its face, they covered new features for OVER TWO HOURS. Phil coming out and telling you oh hey, we're updating the MacBooks and iMacs in October would be something that Apple would never ever do unless there's a compelling reason, and I don't even know what to tell you if you think they'd ever even think this was necessary.
JFC. What more commitment could you possibly want than the iMac Pro and a complete dedication to re-thinking the Mac Pro from the ground up along with new displays. If there was anything that should've killed the "Mac is becoming a toy" mentality it should've been both of those things. They are talking the talk and walking the walk.
As far as your emojis comment... I'm not convinced you even use your Mac for real work anymore. Nobody else seems to be having as much trouble as you are getting over little features like that which you don't even need to use, but a billion other people do.
What about the laptops? iMac? But, yes the Mini is of specific concern seeing as it is the most out of date, as well as huge hole in the lineup. Maybe times have changed, but the Mini was (until Apple nerf'd it and failed to update it, yet retain a high cost) pretty popular with developers. As far as 'moving' if you fail to update it and keep the price high, that's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy there.
I'm doubting a good percentage of developers can afford an iMac Pro, let alone have a few extras sitting around as test machines. The Mini was perfect for that kind of thing.
Heh, it isn't quite that easy.
The point was to show you a spectrum of people who share my opinion, some of them pretty prominent Apple figures. It's not just some crazy opinion of a forum troll (as I've apparently been branded).
I was saying what I'd have liked to hear, given your context of saying they had no time because it was a filled 2.5 hour show already. I didn't need new features or expect them, as they are supposed to be focusing on speed, stability, QC, etc. Any new feature is a distraction from that. And, a majority of these new features they showed weren't worth the time spent showing them, IMO.
re: Phil - if they weren't so darn far behind, then no one would want that from them. I never expected that from the old-Apple, because I had the latest and greatest and didn't mind being surprised at the next keynote. Now, I'm trying to figure out what to do, so any news they could give me would help me make decisions. I'm not the only one in this position, either.... including many of those developers you're so keen on.
Some prosumer Macs? Is macOS getting the same speed and QC treatment as iOS? Are they just holding Mac users over until they can move them to iOS, or does the Mac have a long-term future? Is the Mini really important to Apple, or is that just talk? Are they planning on keeping the Mac or just not merging it with iOS? Are the creatives and the Mac more important to Apple than a 12% pie-slice?
re: emojis - I have no issue with emojis. I use them from time to time and my wife and son seem to enjoy them. But they aren't serious features for propping up a show, nor is stuff like AR sling-shots or Lego games or device/app/time-usage info or tongue detection or mimojis (how long did they spend on that?) or photos search suggestions or Facebook-like photo reminders or quick-look markup or Finder gallery views or Stacks or Dolby Atmos, etc. etc. All that stuff belongs buried in a feature update list somewhere, not taking valuable keynote time. It's frivolous stuff. (Again, this is in context of the keynote being too full of important stuff to address the Mac appropriately. I guess if this is all they had, then that's all they can show. They should have had more such that this stuff wouldn't have made the priority list.)
What billion other people? I thought you said it was a developers conference. Are you now saying this was really a show for the iPhone using masses?
If so, then I agree... but it should be for the developers, hence be more focused on the Mac and significant iOS/macOS, etc features.
The Whataboutism™ with regard to PC manufacturers and the fact you think they're literally unable to update their hardware because a chipset is out in some Windows box shows that you really have no clue how Apple operates internally. Which, of course, is weird given your "30+ years of Mac evangelism".
MacBook
Days since last release: 366
Average: 394
MacBook Pro
Days since last release: 366
Average: 303
iMac
Days since last release: 366
Average: 371
Look at those numbers and tell me your anxiety is warranted. They are COMING, probably sooner than later. You really need to find something else to obsess over, it's unhealthy.
I honestly don't know what's up with the mini, but that certainly doesn't constitute an emergency for me. Either they've got a massive redesign/rethinking coming, or maybe nothing at all. *shrug* I also think that they're not going to release one until there are new displays ready, which could also get released alongside new MacBooks this summer or fall.
Most of those things (other than chip yields), aren't things needed to keep a lineup up-to-date. If they are waiting for something for the 'next big thing' in terms of a new design, then I'm happy to wait until it's all ready. But, don't leave years old tech in a product line just because maybe someday you'll eventually get around fully re-designing it. And, yields shouldn't be a problem for anything aside from their biggest sellers... certainly that isn't the holdup for the Mini. (And, it wouldn't be the hold-up for the Mac Pro if they hadn't decided it would take 6 years to plan some new master re-design.)
And, given my 30+ years of Apple evangelism... it's only the last few years that I've had to worry about stuff like this. Hence, my complaining! Even in Apple's 'dark years' I always felt cutting edge and enough more productive to justify the higher prices paid. I wasn't constantly hit with a degrading UI experience, or really poor software/hardware design choices. I wasn't constantly trying to find work-around or fixes to stuff that previously worked, or should obviously work better.
The reason I think my anxiety is warranted (besides having to make decisions, personally, right now or soon... I just ordered my son '17 MBP tonight, for example), is because there are some obvious advances they could make by updating (fixing things that used to now be an issue). For example, you used to be able to get many more Mac models in quad-core that now only come dual-core. Intel has new CPUs that fix this. Or, some models need updated ports so that they can be used with eGPUs (because Apple decided to limit eGPU use to only TB3). Stuff like that which is easy to solve with simple updates.
re: Mini - Thanks for the insights. I'm not sure I can wait that long (fall), but we'll see. The display thing makes some sense, but IMO, there is no good excuse for not keeping it at least on a 2-year update cycle and THEN do a major update to go along with that display, for example. It becomes more personal for me and others who have no good non-Pro desktop solution from Apple. As previously mentioned, I'm going to have to over-spend on an out-of-date Mac Pro because it's the only option. I shouldn't have to do that. (And, I think there are more people than you give credit for in that same situation. Joke about the xMac all you like, but regardless of what such a system should look like, it fils a huge hole in Apple's lineup.)
OHHHHH, you're one of those xMac, the invisible never gonna happen more-than-a-mini and not-quite-a-pro but not-an-iMac-because-I-want-a-separate-monitor project people. Got it. I'm done here.
So yea, I'd absolutely trade some aspects of of UI from the past for 'improvements' Apple made more recently if they could be set in the current context.
No, I'm just one of those... Apple should have a non-Pro desktop at a semi-reasonable price kind of people.
Not to mention, Macs today are getting more unreliable, lacking serious updates for major variants, and most importantly Apple just being completely slient about it like there’s nothing wrong with their hardware. It’s not about the new design that people didn’t like — I think most changes are positive, but then nobody wants to have a nicely-designed defective keyboard, or a brand new specs that’s almost obsolete.