Federighi said: "We really feel that the ergonomics of using a Mac are that your hands are rested on a surface, and that lifting your arm up to poke a screen is a pretty fatiguing thing to do," he said.
Isn't the same ergonomics issues you have with an iPad Pro + Smart Keyboard? Why it's bad in the Mac and good in the iPad?
People I've talked to who regularly use Windows laptops with touch-screens seem to think it would be nice to have (and they use it). I still think it's a less efficient UI and agree with Apple's stance, but eventually if the market speaks loud enough, I'm sure Apple will go there. I guess my take on it, is that aside from a bit of cost, it doesn't really hurt if it's there and you don't use it (or would it degrade the screen quality or something?).
There are times now, that I've become so trained to use a touch screen, that I will instinctively reach out to my Mac screen, because it seems the most intuitive way to interact with the content on the display. So we may have reached the point where it's counterintuitive to withhold technology from the end-user, because it's not the most efficient method of input.
The bigger issue I see in allowing this port to happen, is that the mouse will be necessary to navigate around the app, where a touch interface was once previously the only way to access functions. Suddenly apple's entire argument about not allowing a mouse on iOS will be blown, as people will have practical application sitting in front of them, and will demand the ability to use a mouse on an iPad, or even an iPhone, where again, depending on the use, will be the most intuitive interface available.
Federighi said: "We really feel that the ergonomics of using a Mac are that your hands are rested on a surface, and that lifting your arm up to poke a screen is a pretty fatiguing thing to do"
Except, this isn't really much different than what I'm already doing with the iPad. I can see this argument with the iPhone, at least in one-handed operation where the thumb is doing a lot of selection. But on the iPad, I typically hold it with one hand and rest my other at my side. I have to lift my hand up to the screen to poke at something, and hover it around when making text edits, or scrolling through screens. The same when I'm typing, it's a completely different way of handling the iPad when I switch from typing to navigating and selecting.
The reality is, we're being conditioned to use touch screens, everywhere in society. The point should be that we should be allowed to use the most intuitive interface possible to accomplish the task at hand. If touching the display creates a more direct and intuitive interaction than a remote touchpad, mouse, or keyboard, then that's what should be enabled -- let the customer decide whether they want to deal with the fatigue. Heck Apple can wall that garden too, and only allow certain parts of any screen to be touch enabled, focusing on those strengths.
Of course the biggest drawback is that the touch screen will add significantly to the cost and size of the Mac, so why do it unless absolutely necessary? Of course, porting iOS apps to the Mac is going to drop all pretense about the best way to deal with touch screens on a Mac. If I instinctively reach for the Mac display sometimes already, imagine what I will do when I see an app I'm used to manipulating on my iPhone and iPad appearing on the screen in front of me at my desk?
Dude. Just use the damn trackpad. Go buy a cheap Windows Touch screen , and see how annoying it is to use.
You don't have to buy a Windows touch screen device. You will have the same annoying experience with an iPad Pro and Smart Keyboard...
Federighi said: "We really feel that the ergonomics of using a Mac are that your hands are rested on a surface, and that lifting your arm up to poke a screen is a pretty fatiguing thing to do," he said.
Isn't the same ergonomics issues you have with an iPad Pro + Smart Keyboard? Why it's bad in the Mac and good in the iPad?
Isn't the Smart Keyboard just an accessory? If so, it seems like you already answered your own question.
Just based on numbers of iOS devices vs. Mac computers, wouldn't a lot of developers just develop an app that runs on iOS and not put too much emphasis on the Mac version?
To me it sounds like the same thing we had when apps were ported from PC to Mac and there wasn't anything done to improve the interface. It was just a straight port.
Is is this the start of the phasing out of the mouse and a covert way to end up making a touch based Mac. A gradual way where you don't really notice until it makes sense because nobody writes code for mice anymore.
I hope not.
Depends if they are a general purpose or niche app?
General purpose yes go for the biggest market. Niche market where people will gear hardware choices around running your app (or direct competitors) then Mac will still be targeted if it is now.
mac_128 said: There are times now, that I've become so trained to use a touch screen, that I will instinctively reach out to my Mac screen, because it seems the most intuitive way to interact with the content on the display. So we may have reached the point where it's counterintuitive to withhold technology from the end-user, because it's not the most efficient method of input.
The bigger issue I see in allowing this port to happen, is that the mouse will be necessary to navigate around the app, where a touch interface was once previously the only way to access functions. Suddenly apple's entire argument about not allowing a mouse on iOS will be blown, as people will have practical application sitting in front of them, and will demand the ability to use a mouse on an iPad, or even an iPhone, where again, depending on the use, will be the most intuitive interface available.
Yes, I hear what you are saying, though I'd maybe word it a bit differently. We've trained ourselves to become less efficient by confusing contexts. It might feel more natural to reach up for the screen due to our mobile use, but it isn't more efficient (yes, more efficient for that particular person in that situation because they don't know better).
I think Apple will have to give on mouse/trackpad input for iOS if they are serious about stuff like the iPad with attached keyboard (i.e.: replacing laptops). I suppose one could argue keystrokes vs touching an on-screen button, but text selection and stuff like that are pretty poor on iOS compared to a Mac.
mac_128 said: The reality is, we're being conditioned to use touch screens, everywhere in society. The point should be that we should be allowed to use the most intuitive interface possible to accomplish the task at hand. If touching the display creates a more direct and intuitive interaction than a remote touchpad, mouse, or keyboard, then that's what should be enabled -- let the customer decide whether they want to deal with the fatigue. Heck Apple can wall that garden too, and only allow certain parts of any screen to be touch enabled, focusing on those strengths.
Of course the biggest drawback is that the touch screen will add significantly to the cost and size of the Mac, so why do it unless absolutely necessary? Of course, porting iOS apps to the Mac is going to drop all pretense about the best way to deal with touch screens on a Mac. If I instinctively reach for the Mac display sometimes already, imagine what I will do when I see an app I'm used to manipulating on my iPhone and iPad appearing on the screen in front of me at my desk?
Yeah, that section of the keynote felt a bit odd, as if he didn't quite believe what he was saying. Or, maybe I'm just reading that onto it.
I think the idea is that when that iOS app gets ported, it should become more Mac-like, so you wouldn't see it as the same thing. On the other hand, having apps with UIs that work differently between platforms, hurts the workflow efficiency of switching between platforms.
That's actually one of my problems with the iPad as laptop idea, in that if you also use a Mac, now you have to keep two ways of doing things in mind. I suppose at least having the same app on both makes a bit of a compromise (vs. using two completely different apps to accomplish the same task).
tallest skil said: My hope (“You actually have hope left?” No, not really.) is that porting iOS apps to OS X applications causes iOS devs to become Mac devs. I know Apple doesn’t care about the Mac; I know they’re not profiting from it. But without computers, what is Apple?
Yeah, I think that's Apple's hope too... more software development for both, which means more for the Mac. But, this is kind of like the old Windows debate... I'd rather have 1 or 2 good apps, than 1000 crumby apps. A lot of iOS apps aren't even worth being in the App Store. And, a lot of the best iOS apps aren't as good for doing a particular task as a good Mac app for the same thing.
tallest skil said: I know Apple doesn’t care about the Mac; I know they’re not profiting from it.
Obviously the do and obviously they are.
I think they are profiting from it accidentally at this point. Developers still need Macs and the rest of us are still clinging to some kind of abusive-relationship hope that things will be like they once were.
StrangeDays said: These posts come up every single year... Answer is still the same: “It’s a software conference.”
That's where you are wrong. It's a developers conference.
StrangeDays said: What an absurd thing to say, and completely disconnected from reality and the exact words of Apple execs time and time again.
I think you meant to say, reality is disconnected from what Apple execs say???
danvm said: Isn't the same ergonomics issues you have with an iPad Pro + Smart Keyboard? Why it's bad in the Mac and good in the iPad?
Isn't the Smart Keyboard just an accessory? If so, it seems like you already answered your own question.
Yes, it is a compromise situation. You use your iPad as a tablet, but then get more efficient text input via the physical keyboard. But, overall, it's far less efficient as using a laptop. But... Apple has been trying to advertise this setup as a 'computer' replacement, hence the discrepancy.
Federighi said: "We really feel that the ergonomics of using a Mac are that your hands are rested on a surface, and that lifting your arm up to poke a screen is a pretty fatiguing thing to do," he said.
Isn't the same ergonomics issues you have with an iPad Pro + Smart Keyboard? Why it's bad in the Mac and good in the iPad?
Isn't the Smart Keyboard just an accessory? If so, it seems like you already answered your own question.
Does it makes a difference it makes if it's an accessory?
danvm said: Isn't the same ergonomics issues you have with an iPad Pro + Smart Keyboard? Why it's bad in the Mac and good in the iPad?
Isn't the Smart Keyboard just an accessory? If so, it seems like you already answered your own question.
Yes, it is a compromise situation. You use your iPad as a tablet, but then get more efficient text input via the physical keyboard. But, overall, it's far less efficient as using a laptop. But... Apple has been trying to advertise this setup as a 'computer' replacement, hence the discrepancy.
Obviously the setup serves as an adequate computer replacement for some. But getting back to the question of "why it's bad in the Mac and good in the iPad..." In my opinion, all Apple is saying is that it's "good" for people to have the option of a physical keyboard. That's a far cry from saying it's a good idea to produce an iPad with a physical keyboard that sits on a different plane than the screen.
I guess I kinda agree, but I can’t see how anyone considered macOS a dead platform and I think macOS is even more consumer-focused with all the new changes because they mirror more of the apps and features found in iOS (note: I'm not saying they're iOS apps on macOS).
I also wouldn’t say it’s pro-focused, but I would say it’s more developer-focused with all the changes that will make it easier for iOS developers to port their apps to macOS.
cgWerks said:
Yes, I hear what you are saying, though I'd maybe word it a bit differently. We've trained ourselves to become less efficient by confusing contexts. It might feel more natural to reach up for the screen due to our mobile use, but it isn't more efficient (yes, more efficient for that particular person in that situation because they don't know better).
I really can’t agree that a person touching a display screen to manipulate the content seems easier because they don’t know any better, in all cases. I’ve been that person and there are situations where it actually is easier. When a dialogue box pops up on the screen and my hands are mid type, lifting my hand up and pressing the big button in the dialogue box on the screen to dismiss it is far easier than finding my mouse, finding the cursor, navigating to the button, clicking on it, then moving the cursor back to document location where I was typing, inserting it, and moving my hands back to the keyboard to resume typing. It’s even worse if I need to move the dialogue box out of the way to continue doing what I was doing until I could acknowledge it. And that’s just one simple example. I’ve wanted to touch the screen for things like that since 1994 when I got my first MacBook.
I agree that there are many cases where it’s easier to just grab the mouse, and yet more where it’s 50/50 depending on the person. But the point remains that depending on the software, the UI, the dexterity of the user, and the task at hand, what’s easier is relative.
What will happen if we ever get to the MINORITY REPORT level technology where were manipulating the UI by waving our hands in thin air? The idea of restricting the technology a user can employ just doesn’t make sense to me, if any one technology makes any part of the process easier when used together..
I guess what I don't get, is what gave that impression aside from what they said (they say a lot of things)? Just the model for iOS/macOS working together? That macOS is getting an update? Until I see them regularly churning out cutting edge hardware again, and experience some improvement (rather than degradation) of the OS, I'm not going to be convinced of it.
mac_128 said: I really can’t agree that a person touching a display screen to manipulate the content seems easier because they don’t know any better, in all cases. I’ve been that person and there are situations where it actually is easier. When a dialogue box pops up on the screen and my hands are mid type, lifting my hand up and pressing the big button in the dialogue box on the screen to dismiss it is far easier than finding my mouse, finding the cursor, navigating to the button, clicking on it, then moving the cursor back to document location where I was typing, inserting it, and moving my hands back to the keyboard to resume typing. It’s even worse if I need to move the dialogue box out of the way to continue doing what I was doing until I could acknowledge it. And that’s just one simple example. I’ve wanted to touch the screen for things like that since 1994 when I got my first MacBook.
I agree that there are many cases where it’s easier to just grab the mouse, and yet more where it’s 50/50 depending on the person. But the point remains that depending on the software, the UI, the dexterity of the user, and the task at hand, what’s easier is relative.
I suppose I agree, though an argument could be made that that dialog popping up mid-type might not be good UI in the first place. But, even so, that kind of dialog can be dismissed with keystrokes. If it is some kind of tool/settings pallet, then I suppose it is debatable again about efficiency, or maybe then, accuracy (or at least finger-print cleaning!).
I'm not necessarily opposed to having both, though. And, you're correct that for some people, it could make the machine more accessible.
Federighi said: "We really feel that the ergonomics of using a Mac are that your hands are rested on a surface, and that lifting your arm up to poke a screen is a pretty fatiguing thing to do," he said.
Isn't the same ergonomics issues you have with an iPad Pro + Smart Keyboard? Why it's bad in the Mac and good in the iPad?
No, because I don’t have a Smart Keyboard.
If they create a bastardised hybrid FrankenPad then developers will create apps that are essentially Mac apps, and the ergonomics well go out the window.
Comments
I think Apple will have to give on mouse/trackpad input for iOS if they are serious about stuff like the iPad with attached keyboard (i.e.: replacing laptops). I suppose one could argue keystrokes vs touching an on-screen button, but text selection and stuff like that are pretty poor on iOS compared to a Mac.
Yeah, that section of the keynote felt a bit odd, as if he didn't quite believe what he was saying. Or, maybe I'm just reading that onto it.
I think the idea is that when that iOS app gets ported, it should become more Mac-like, so you wouldn't see it as the same thing. On the other hand, having apps with UIs that work differently between platforms, hurts the workflow efficiency of switching between platforms.
That's actually one of my problems with the iPad as laptop idea, in that if you also use a Mac, now you have to keep two ways of doing things in mind. I suppose at least having the same app on both makes a bit of a compromise (vs. using two completely different apps to accomplish the same task).
Yeah, I think that's Apple's hope too... more software development for both, which means more for the Mac. But, this is kind of like the old Windows debate... I'd rather have 1 or 2 good apps, than 1000 crumby apps. A lot of iOS apps aren't even worth being in the App Store. And, a lot of the best iOS apps aren't as good for doing a particular task as a good Mac app for the same thing.
I think they are profiting from it accidentally at this point. Developers still need Macs and the rest of us are still clinging to some kind of abusive-relationship hope that things will be like they once were.
That's where you are wrong. It's a developers conference.
I think you meant to say, reality is disconnected from what Apple execs say???
It isn't good on the iPad, just don't tell Apple that.
Yes, it is a compromise situation. You use your iPad as a tablet, but then get more efficient text input via the physical keyboard. But, overall, it's far less efficient as using a laptop.
But... Apple has been trying to advertise this setup as a 'computer' replacement, hence the discrepancy.
I wonder if the iOS Apps ported to the macOS utilize the TouchBar for any of their interaction?
I also wouldn’t say it’s pro-focused, but I would say it’s more developer-focused with all the changes that will make it easier for iOS developers to port their apps to macOS.
I really can’t agree that a person touching a display screen to manipulate the content seems easier because they don’t know any better, in all cases. I’ve been that person and there are situations where it actually is easier. When a dialogue box pops up on the screen and my hands are mid type, lifting my hand up and pressing the big button in the dialogue box on the screen to dismiss it is far easier than finding my mouse, finding the cursor, navigating to the button, clicking on it, then moving the cursor back to document location where I was typing, inserting it, and moving my hands back to the keyboard to resume typing. It’s even worse if I need to move the dialogue box out of the way to continue doing what I was doing until I could acknowledge it. And that’s just one simple example. I’ve wanted to touch the screen for things like that since 1994 when I got my first MacBook.
I agree that there are many cases where it’s easier to just grab the mouse, and yet more where it’s 50/50 depending on the person. But the point remains that depending on the software, the UI, the dexterity of the user, and the task at hand, what’s easier is relative.
What will happen if we ever get to the MINORITY REPORT level technology where were manipulating the UI by waving our hands in thin air? The idea of restricting the technology a user can employ just doesn’t make sense to me, if any one technology makes any part of the process easier when used together..
I'm not necessarily opposed to having both, though. And, you're correct that for some people, it could make the machine more accessible.
If they create a bastardised hybrid FrankenPad then developers will create apps that are essentially Mac apps, and the ergonomics well go out the window.
As far as I remember, Apple has churned out a fairly sizeable MacOs update almost every year since Jobs returned.
So i have no idea where this “dead platform” crap is coming from.