Some game developers hint at abandoning the Mac if Apple phases out OpenGL

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 80
    jeffharrisjeffharris Posts: 555member
    macxpress said:
    Cry me a river...

    Why is that some developers are fine with doing this and it comes out pretty damn well and others are just ugh now we have to actually make a Mac game instead of a shitty port that runs half-ass? And then wonder why the Mac isn't a large market for games. 
    Unfortunately, it's better to have a handful of shitty games, than NONE.

    I suppose lazy-ass developers can point to STEAM, but the performance kind of blows.
    And STEAM games STILL have to be optimized for Mac OS.
    Call of Duty WWII anyone?
    Alex1N
  • Reply 62 of 80
    geirnoklebyegeirnoklebye Posts: 37unconfirmed, member
    I have not found any WWDC sessions on moving to Metal for OpenCL developers. I wonder why that is?
    Because you did not look good enough, or maybe only wanted to make a doom-ish posting?

    https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2018/604/

    There has been multiple such sessions in earlier WWDC conferences too. 
    Alex1N
  • Reply 63 of 80
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 7,162member
    Apple probably doesn't care about gaming on Macs. It's just another win for Windows PCs, as usual.
    Then why are sales of Windows PCs falling while sales of Macs are growing?
    StrangeDaysanton zuykovAlex1N
  • Reply 64 of 80
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 8,261member
    claire1 said:
    This is why Apple needs to acquire super talented studios and create 1st party Metal games. Let these developers complain while Apple eats their lunch. Mac users have more money, the games are missing though.

    It's kinda fun to think these threats will have some kind of impact, but... great gaming has moved away from computers.  Go check out the metacritic.com scores for most PC titles and you'll find something quite disturbing - not very many titles score into the 90's.  The PC suffers from an abundance of "meh".  And PC games have lots of bugs - it's the nature of the platform .. to much disparate hardware and lots of sketchy drivers.  Game companies can't make good titles...  For some reason this has spilled over into the XBox One too..
     
    For gaming I strongly recommend two consoles ... the Nintendo Switch and the PlayStation 4.

    On the Switch, The Legend of Zelda - Breath of the Wild is probably the best game ever made.  It has many finely tuned game systems: Physics, Time, Weather, Floral & Fauna, Meticulous sound, and the most immersive open world gaming I have ever experienced.  I'll hop in to kill 10 minutes and spend two hours.  It's not perfect ... nothing is ... but it's the closest thing to a Masterpiece the gaming world has seen thus far.

    On the PlayStation 4 you have many great titles.. "Grand Theft Auto V", "The Last of Us Remastered", "Uncharted 4", and the new "GOD of War" title.  Plus all the best games ported from the PC.  It's probably the best console to get for PG-13 gaming on up..



    How about Apple TV? The best streaming box capable of 4k Dolby Vision graphics on par with Switch?....

    Seriously why is Apple dragging their feet in gaming? 
    1) Apple wouldn’t make much money from buying game developer studios and making games. It’s a niche market.

    2) Apple is not into doing everything. Being a console gaming platform likely just isn’t something they want to spend energy on. 
    Alex1N
  • Reply 65 of 80
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 8,261member

    claire1 said:
    JinTech said:
    CobraGuy said:
    auxio said:
    loopless said:
    I am not sure people realize that Microsoft does not support OpenGL either. Out of the box windows only supports only an ancient version of OpenGL -v1.2. Every graphics card manufacturer for windows has to ship their own up to date OpenGL drivers. The problem on macOS is that Apple controls the hardware and has to supply the drivers. 
    Nobody does OpenGL development for Windows.  Even with up-to-date video card drivers, it's buggy and slow compared to DirectX.  But yet game developers don't complain about having to write games for Microsoft's proprietary API.

    And oh look... a quick Google search shows that there's a technology called MoltenVK to allow developers to use Vulkan (the cross-platform Metal alternative) on top of Metal.  So the whining game developers who are happy to use proprietary APIs from Microsoft, but not Apple, are free to keep using cross-platform technologies.
    Well, DirectX has been out for years.

    i recall back in the day that ID Software (Doom and Quake) and Epic (Unreal) were once staunch supporters of OpenGL.

    Apple was once too.
    Didn't John Carmack essentially develop OpenGL? Or was at least pivotal in porting it to the Mac OS?
    Pivotal in porting. John would make an amazing acquihire for Apple. He can develop games and is a visionary.
    So you’re suggesting Apple acquire Facebook to hire Carmack? Because he works for Facebook. 
    Alex1N
  • Reply 66 of 80
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 1,959member
    mattspace said:
    Look outside games for a moment, there are a lot of Pro media creation apps that rely on OpenGL. Usually they're made by small teams, for specific tasks, and the only reason we get Mac versions, is because they can develop the interface using Qt, and the engine with OpenGL, and amortise the high cost, relative to number of seats, of maintaining a Mac version, across Windows and Linux.

    The Mac is riding on Windows' coattails for a lot of these sorts of niche, heavy-lifting apps. We get a version, because we're low marginal cost. Once that changes these developers aren't going to re-tool for Metal, they're just going to dump macOS.

    Would these products be better with Metal? No doubt, but that assumes that a Metal version is an option on the table.
    If I remember correctly Tim Cook said there are currently 20 million iOS developers.  My hunch is, long-term, Apple is banking on these iOS developers to become Mac developers.  It isn't necessarily about the "small" development shops trying to maintain cross-platform of their software. So if you're an iOS (or iOS-only) developer, chances are  you're very familiar with Metal.
    Alex1N
  • Reply 67 of 80
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 1,959member
    claire1 said:
    This is why Apple needs to acquire super talented studios and create 1st party Metal games. Let these developers complain while Apple eats their lunch. Mac users have more money, the games are missing though.

    It's kinda fun to think these threats will have some kind of impact, but... great gaming has moved away from computers.  Go check out the metacritic.com scores for most PC titles and you'll find something quite disturbing - not very many titles score into the 90's.  The PC suffers from an abundance of "meh".  And PC games have lots of bugs - it's the nature of the platform .. to much disparate hardware and lots of sketchy drivers.  Game companies can't make good titles...  For some reason this has spilled over into the XBox One too..
     
    For gaming I strongly recommend two consoles ... the Nintendo Switch and the PlayStation 4.

    On the Switch, The Legend of Zelda - Breath of the Wild is probably the best game ever made.  It has many finely tuned game systems: Physics, Time, Weather, Floral & Fauna, Meticulous sound, and the most immersive open world gaming I have ever experienced.  I'll hop in to kill 10 minutes and spend two hours.  It's not perfect ... nothing is ... but it's the closest thing to a Masterpiece the gaming world has seen thus far.

    On the PlayStation 4 you have many great titles.. "Grand Theft Auto V", "The Last of Us Remastered", "Uncharted 4", and the new "GOD of War" title.  Plus all the best games ported from the PC.  It's probably the best console to get for PG-13 gaming on up..



    How about Apple TV? The best streaming box capable of 4k Dolby Vision graphics on par with Switch?....

    Seriously why is Apple dragging their feet in gaming? 
    1) Apple wouldn’t make much money from buying game developer studios and making games. It’s a niche market.

    2) Apple is not into doing everything. Being a console gaming platform likely just isn’t something they want to spend energy on. 
    Disagree.  Gaming is not a niche market.  It's a multi-billion dollar market and growing.  Obviously, with their TV efforts, Apple has shown they're not reluctant to create first-party exclusive content to differentiate their platform, there's no reason they can't do it for gaming.  Gaming is an obvious area where doing first-party content can help bolster their platform.  Just ask any of the console makers.
    Alex1Navon b7
  • Reply 68 of 80
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 4,934member
    macxpress said:
    Cry me a river...

    Why is that some developers are fine with doing this and it comes out pretty damn well and others are just ugh now we have to actually make a Mac game instead of a shitty port that runs half-ass? And then wonder why the Mac isn't a large market for games. 
    Unfortunately, it's better to have a handful of shitty games, than NONE.

    I suppose lazy-ass developers can point to STEAM, but the performance kind of blows.
    And STEAM games STILL have to be optimized for Mac OS.
    Call of Duty WWII anyone?
    Whoever said there would be NONE? Of course there will be games for macOS. In the end, I bet there will be better games than in the past. Just a couple of whinyass developers who don't want to make an actual Mac app want to complain because their shitty workarounds aren't going to work anymore. 
    Alex1N
  • Reply 69 of 80
    crowleycrowley Posts: 5,987member

    claire1 said:
    JinTech said:
    CobraGuy said:
    auxio said:
    loopless said:
    I am not sure people realize that Microsoft does not support OpenGL either. Out of the box windows only supports only an ancient version of OpenGL -v1.2. Every graphics card manufacturer for windows has to ship their own up to date OpenGL drivers. The problem on macOS is that Apple controls the hardware and has to supply the drivers. 
    Nobody does OpenGL development for Windows.  Even with up-to-date video card drivers, it's buggy and slow compared to DirectX.  But yet game developers don't complain about having to write games for Microsoft's proprietary API.

    And oh look... a quick Google search shows that there's a technology called MoltenVK to allow developers to use Vulkan (the cross-platform Metal alternative) on top of Metal.  So the whining game developers who are happy to use proprietary APIs from Microsoft, but not Apple, are free to keep using cross-platform technologies.
    Well, DirectX has been out for years.

    i recall back in the day that ID Software (Doom and Quake) and Epic (Unreal) were once staunch supporters of OpenGL.

    Apple was once too.
    Didn't John Carmack essentially develop OpenGL? Or was at least pivotal in porting it to the Mac OS?
    Pivotal in porting. John would make an amazing acquihire for Apple. He can develop games and is a visionary.
    So you’re suggesting Apple acquire Facebook to hire Carmack? Because he works for Facebook. 
    You don't have to buy a company to hire its workers.  I'm sure Carmack could be tempted away; Apple just needs to start a new rocket division.
    Alex1N
  • Reply 70 of 80
    anton zuykovanton zuykov Posts: 1,039member
    lkrupp said:
    Apple probably doesn't care about gaming on Macs. It's just another win for Windows PCs, as usual.
    Then why are sales of Windows PCs falling while sales of Macs are growing?
    Because when reality and fantasy collide, the former wins =)
    jeffharrisAlex1N
  • Reply 71 of 80
    mattspacemattspace Posts: 17member
    lkrupp said:
    Apple probably doesn't care about gaming on Macs. It's just another win for Windows PCs, as usual.
    Then why are sales of Windows PCs falling while sales of Macs are growing?
    That doesn't tell the full story.

    Low end PCs have tanked as tablets and phones eat a lot of tasks you used to need a pc to do, however the Mac has not been immune to this, look at year over year, the Mac is fairly static, if anything, it's going very slowly backwards, which isn't helped by Apple trying to take the Mac in the same thin, lightweight direction as the iPad, so it's competitive with, not complimentary to.

    Now, look at gaming PCs specifically - so high performance machines, with high end GPUs (what Apple would sell as a "Pro VR Workstation" if they could bring themselves to offer an upgradable slotbox again - shoutout to the old Powermac 6500, compact dual-pci slot machine), that market has been growing at around 24% year over year for a number of years.

    Contrary to some opinions, the average "serious" or hardcore gamer is actually closer to 35 years old, than 14.
    singularity
  • Reply 72 of 80
    mattspacemattspace Posts: 17member
    mattspace said:
    Look outside games for a moment, there are a lot of Pro media creation apps that rely on OpenGL. Usually they're made by small teams, for specific tasks, and the only reason we get Mac versions, is because they can develop the interface using Qt, and the engine with OpenGL, and amortise the high cost, relative to number of seats, of maintaining a Mac version, across Windows and Linux.

    If I remember correctly Tim Cook said there are currently 20 million iOS developers.  My hunch is, long-term, Apple is banking on these iOS developers to become Mac developers.  It isn't necessarily about the "small" development shops trying to maintain cross-platform of their software. So if you're an iOS (or iOS-only) developer, chances are  you're very familiar with Metal.
    Unfortunately, iOS developers, by virtue of iOS hardware being low-power compared to a content creator's workstation, aren't likely to be making the sort of apps that cross-platform OpenGL developers make - the one I use maxes dual 12-(physical)core Xeons and eats about 25-30GB of ram while working. Noone in iOS-land is going to make that app for me.
  • Reply 73 of 80
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 1,959member
    mattspace said:
    mattspace said:
    Look outside games for a moment, there are a lot of Pro media creation apps that rely on OpenGL. Usually they're made by small teams, for specific tasks, and the only reason we get Mac versions, is because they can develop the interface using Qt, and the engine with OpenGL, and amortise the high cost, relative to number of seats, of maintaining a Mac version, across Windows and Linux.

    If I remember correctly Tim Cook said there are currently 20 million iOS developers.  My hunch is, long-term, Apple is banking on these iOS developers to become Mac developers.  It isn't necessarily about the "small" development shops trying to maintain cross-platform of their software. So if you're an iOS (or iOS-only) developer, chances are  you're very familiar with Metal.
    Unfortunately, iOS developers, by virtue of iOS hardware being low-power compared to a content creator's workstation, aren't likely to be making the sort of apps that cross-platform OpenGL developers make - the one I use maxes dual 12-(physical)core Xeons and eats about 25-30GB of ram while working. Noone in iOS-land is going to make that app for me.
    "Noone in iOS-land is going to make that app for me."

    You're right with respect them not making cross-platform OpenGL apps but you're assuming an iOS developer can't or won't make an app that takes advantage of all the power  current iMac Pro or future Mac Pro provides (this is all assuming UIKit for Mac gets more capable over time)
    edited June 2018
  • Reply 74 of 80
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,717member
    macxpress said:
    Cry me a river...

    Why is that some developers are fine with doing this and it comes out pretty damn well and others are just ugh now we have to actually make a Mac game instead of a shitty port that runs half-ass? And then wonder why the Mac isn't a large market for games. 
    Unfortunately, it's better to have a handful of shitty games, than NONE.

    No, it’s not. No one will play shitty games, so all they do is make your platform look bad. 

    A lesson from “The successful developer’s guide to OS/2”
  • Reply 75 of 80
    mattspacemattspace Posts: 17member
    mattspace said:
    mattspace said:
    Look outside games for a moment, there are a lot of Pro media creation apps that rely on OpenGL. Usually they're made by small teams, for specific tasks, and the only reason we get Mac versions, is because they can develop the interface using Qt, and the engine with OpenGL, and amortise the high cost, relative to number of seats, of maintaining a Mac version, across Windows and Linux.

    If I remember correctly Tim Cook said there are currently 20 million iOS developers.  My hunch is, long-term, Apple is banking on these iOS developers to become Mac developers.  It isn't necessarily about the "small" development shops trying to maintain cross-platform of their software. So if you're an iOS (or iOS-only) developer, chances are  you're very familiar with Metal.
    Unfortunately, iOS developers, by virtue of iOS hardware being low-power compared to a content creator's workstation, aren't likely to be making the sort of apps that cross-platform OpenGL developers make - the one I use maxes dual 12-(physical)core Xeons and eats about 25-30GB of ram while working. Noone in iOS-land is going to make that app for me.
    "Noone in iOS-land is going to make that app for me."

    You're right with respect them not making cross-platform OpenGL apps but you're assuming an iOS developer can't or won't make an app that takes advantage of all the power  current iMac Pro or future Mac Pro provides (this is all assuming UIKit for Mac gets more capable over time)
    I suspect for the class of (non-game) apps that OpenGL enables on the Mac, the number of potential customers isn't large enough, in absolute terms, to justify a single-platform investment, especially in macOS. Windows, Mac and Linux combined, you may have enough of an addressable market to build market and maintain an app, but given the way content creation and content heavy lifting is abandoning the Mac / hedging their bets and going cross-platform, I certainly wouldn't bet my financial future on Apple-only technologies for content creation.
  • Reply 76 of 80
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 2,261member
    So long as the most used third-party game engines support Metal, there's still a path for game developers who don't build their own engines. Otherwise, not much had changed here. Apple abandoned OpenGL ages ago. It's only now making that position official, declaring that they're never going to fix their inferior OpenGL support, and warning developers that OpenGL is going away completely at some point.

    Apple has never cared about much backwards compatibility. It's just a thing we Mac users have to live with (or not; I'm not going back to Windows for anything but games, and I'm not that much of a gamer, mostly because of the lack of money to put into entertainment by keeping a gaming rig).

    Third parties can always offer a middleware product to put in an OpenGL to Metal translation layer, so that's still another possibility. I don't know if that would help existing software, once Apple removes the included OpenGL, since display drivers seem to be an Apple-only thing right now. But again, it doesn't take long for Mac software to require rewrites for OS compatibility anyway. Ultimately this will be a thing to be solved by the content owners. If they don't see a profit to be made on the Mac platform, they won't rewrite or port software. Same as it's always been.
  • Reply 77 of 80
    borpsborps Posts: 19member
    Here’s a really good article about why deprecating OpenGL isn’t the end of Mac gaming.
    https://www.macgamerhq.com/opinion/the-end-of-mac-gaming/
  • Reply 78 of 80
    borpsborps Posts: 19member
    The typical Mac buyer is someone who doesn't care about building a computer at all.  Someone who wants a computer which is as easy to use as possible, which then frees up their time to do the things they really want/need to do with a computer.  Typically older professionals who simply don't have the copious amounts of free time that the hardcore gamers do and/or people who have a life outside of computers. :D  They may have more money, but they're not interested in spending it on games which they'd never have time to play.
    And I like to challenge this. Are you aware that the largest demographic of PC (Mac) gamers are people in their mid 30s to mid 40s? Exactly the people you mentioned as typical Mac buyer... The hardcore gamers might put more time into each game, but we’re the ones who buy a lot of games, even if we might not be glued to the screen until 2:00. Game studios want to sell games, they don’t care how many hours we put into playing them as long as we keep buying their stuff.
  • Reply 79 of 80
    asciiascii Posts: 5,941member
    borps said:
    And I like to challenge this. Are you aware that the largest demographic of PC (Mac) gamers are people in their mid 30s to mid 40s? 
    Yep anyone under 50 either had their own computer when they were a little kid or has access to one. It would have been slower than today's models but the same in principle. 

    There is always a generational divide between kids and their parents, but in today's society there is an even bigger divide between the information-era generations (anyone under 50) and the industrial-era generations (anyone over 50).

    That said, with the recent renewed interest in manufacturing thanks to people like Elon Musk and the President (and to newer technologies like 3D printing), we under 50s perhaps have some lost knowledge to regain.
  • Reply 80 of 80
    nhtnht Posts: 4,494member
    ascii said:
    borps said:
    And I like to challenge this. Are you aware that the largest demographic of PC (Mac) gamers are people in their mid 30s to mid 40s? 
    Yep anyone under 50 either had their own computer when they were a little kid or has access to one. It would have been slower than today's models but the same in principle. 

    There is always a generational divide between kids and their parents, but in today's society there is an even bigger divide between the information-era generations (anyone under 50) and the industrial-era generations (anyone over 50).

    That said, with the recent renewed interest in manufacturing thanks to people like Elon Musk and the President (and to newer technologies like 3D printing), we under 50s perhaps have some lost knowledge to regain.
    Many folks in their 50s had access to a PC when growing up in the 1980s.  

    Never heard of the Apple ][? 1977.

    A self declared member of the technorati generations who can’t fucking google basic Apple history and declares folks over 50 (like Steve fucking Jobs) hail from the industrial era.

    hint: the Industrial Age(s) started with the industrial revolution(s). The Information Age starts with the digital revolution which is marked as beginning in 1969 with microprocessors (1971) and the internet (1969).
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