Apple's new macOS Mojave optimizes the Mac for iOS users, not PC switchers

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 50
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,757member
    I love this direction for the Mac. 

    And excellent article, DED!
    Dan_Dilgerkiltedgreenlamboaudi4watto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 50
    Dan_DilgerDan_Dilger Posts: 1,583member
    wozwoz said:
    I may not like PCs (well, Windows), but even I would have to admit that moving from a PC to an iPad is not an upgrade. They are totally different things. As Tim Cook appears to advocate, an iPad is not a 'computer' - I could not possibly imagine doing my research work on it, or running Mathematica on it, or writing a serious paper on it.

    I have noticed that iPads are very popular with 5 to 10 year olds:  the parents give it to them to shut the kids up, and they doodle away with it on the couch (instead of sitting in front of the idiot box).
    Disruptive technologies are not an "upgrade," but rather a better fit for a large group of over-served customers. 

    Apple sells tens of millions of iPads every year, as many or more than the Macs it sells to very different audiences. Most of those iPads are not babysitting, despite your anecdote. On the other hand, of the 1.3 billion Apple devices, how many have ever run Mathematica? Certainly less than 1%.




    StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 50
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 372member
    nht said:
    ElCapitan said:
    ElCapitan said:
    >However, Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at Windows users lately. Actually Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at a rather large group of existing Mac users either.
    Mini, Mac Pro and to some extent MacBook Pro users have been neglected, pushed out in the cold for years. Add to them macOS Server users, and with the deprecation of OpenGL, an entire class of high end graphics and scientific users from whom the ability of running iOS apps is virtually irrelevant.
    Yes.
    The installed base of Mac users is ~150M. 
    The installed base of iOS users is ~1,150M

    The media narrative that Apple isn't updating Macs 

    Media narrative? - What planet are you living on?

    Besides ALL the iOS users are 100% dependent on Macs.

    Not a single app is created without a Mac. 

    NOT catering to the developer community who creates and maintains those apps is over time cutting the branch you sit on. 

    NOT catering to the IT professionals running the backends and infrastructures for those devices in everything from small businesses to large enterprises  is over time cutting the branch you sit on.
    As a dev I can heartily say you’re full of it.

    Docker works fine on my 2016 MBP.  XCode works great. Swift is very nice.  

    If you don’t need mobility then the MBP isn’t designed for you.  Buy an iMac.  If you do need mobility (as in you actually travel) the current MBPs are better than the older ones.

    And with eGPUs you can have both power and mobility, although at slightly higher cost than just an iMac.

    Docker works depending on what you want to run on it. One example is UNMS - Ubiquiti Network Management System they cannot get to work reliably in Docker for macOS.  Besides if you really want to use Docker for anything but hobby and some testing there are virtually no hardware from Apple any more that makes sense to deploy it on. 

    No, the 2016 MBP is not designed for me. For lengthy Xcode builds that routinely takes 50 minutes with all cores active, due to the thermals of the 2016 MBP it starts throttling a few minutes into the build. - NOT GOOD!  

    Even for testing the application stability on that hardware that many users may end up with (for any reason), the GPU also starts throttling after a few minutes. So it is useless. 

    International pricing is also an issue when a moderately configured 
    2016 MBP 15" set you back over $3700, that is also not very good. 

    In addition there are 4 minis in a setup to properly test the software (backend for multiple clients), and they all are looking long in the tooth since new i7 minis cannot be had. The ability to run multiple processes at full load is much more important than absolute processor speed. 
    edited July 2018 williamlondon
  • Reply 24 of 50
    DED, If I understand you correctly (and I think I do) then Apple is moving towards building a single product with multiple variants that all sync/integrate with each other, enabling one to access the best of each variant for use by any of the other variants, doing so in a typically Apple easy to use manner.

    The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

    Brilliant.
    Dan_Dilgerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 50
    ElCapitan said:

    International pricing is also an issue when a moderately configured 2016 MBP 15" set you back over $3700, that is also not very good. 

    International pricing is not just a currency exchange rate thing.  Most countries (if not all) outside the US employ a national sales tax (in varying degrees) known as VAT (Value Added Tax).  It is the lack of a national sales tax in the US that makes buying a Toyota/Mercedes in the US cheaper than it does in Japan/Germany.

    Unlike the US where the price of an item is advertised WITHOUT sales tax, outside of the US the advertised price INCLUDES the national sales tax.  If you were to deduct the national sales tax and convert local currency to US$, you will find pricing to be quite close to each other.
    StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 50
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 372member
    ElCapitan said:

    International pricing is also an issue when a moderately configured 2016 MBP 15" set you back over $3700, that is also not very good. 

    International pricing is not just a currency exchange rate thing.  Most countries (if not all) outside the US employ a national sales tax (in varying degrees) known as VAT (Value Added Tax).  It is the lack of a national sales tax in the US that makes buying a Toyota/Mercedes in the US cheaper than it does in Japan/Germany.

    Unlike the US where the price of an item is advertised WITHOUT sales tax, outside of the US the advertised price INCLUDES the national sales tax.  If you were to deduct the national sales tax and convert local currency to US$, you will find pricing to be quite close to each other.
    True to a certain extent, but there is also the general prizing of comparable hardware in the market that comes into play when people chose systems. For groups such as students it can be sensitive, meaning they often end up with a non Apple product. For long term Mac users it gets less sensitive as the second hand price of used machines are pretty good, so the next investment is cheaper. The problem arise when new models are not introduced for years. It basically ruins the secondhand market. 
    williamlondon
  • Reply 27 of 50
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,400member
    rob53 said:
    "Incredibly, across the next 18 years Microsoft has done nothing but dumb down Windows into its current form as the artless, budget-written Windows 10, which is as fun to use as a suppository." Best line in the article that states my feeling about Windows to the tee!

    I use both, macOS and Windows 10, and both have their good and bad things.  Even Apple had to copy some elements from Windows 10, and the same can be said about Windows 10 copying from Apple. 

    As for Apple not coming out with a new looking model car computer every year, so what. People complain about everything but when you look at what options Apple has with hardware, why grab at minute changes by Intel that don't really change much. I'm tired of people who think they absolutely require every single hardware upgrade. Yes, it's been awhile since the mini and Mac Pro have been updated or upgraded but is it really hurting you?

    The current 8th gen Intel processors start with 4-core up to 6-cores, and are more energy efficient.  Don't you think that customers investing in current iMac's and MacBook and MacBook Pro should have the latest in the market, specially considering the cost of Apple devices?   BTW, do you consider "minute changes" what the Mac Mini and MacPro have compared to what Intel offers today?


    edited July 2018 williamlondon
  • Reply 28 of 50
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,400member
    ElCapitan said:
    >However, Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at Windows users lately. Actually Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at a rather large group of existing Mac users either.
    Mini, Mac Pro and to some extent MacBook Pro users have been neglected, pushed out in the cold for years. Add to them macOS Server users, and with the deprecation of OpenGL, an entire class of high end graphics and scientific users from whom the ability of running iOS apps is virtually irrelevant.
    Yes.
    The installed base of Mac users is ~150M. 
    The installed base of iOS users is ~1,150M

    The media narrative that Apple isn't updating Macs reflects the fact that both Mac Pro and Mac mini were shelved for rethinking. The systems that actually sell in quantity are updated as regularly as new Intel chips basically allow. Thing is, Intel chips aren't getting faster very fast. Apple introduced an entirely new iMac Pro, and MBPs are getting annual updates in tandem with new Intel microarchitectures.

    The Mac Pro and the Mini haven't been shelved.  They still being sold, and I think that's the issue.  Intel have been offering processors that have been working in small PC's (even smaller than the Mac Mini) and workstations from HP, Dell and Lenovo for years.  Apple is the only one who haven't update their devices. 

    The doting on MB keyboards is statistically inaccurate. Anyone who has managed fleets of PCs knows that even premium priced laptops fall apart under use and have parts failures. MBPs are pretty solid in comparison. Nobody cares enough about Lenovo or HP etc to turn minor part failures (or class actions of small groups of litigants) into a news story.

    Lenovo and HP sell 2x - 3x more PCs/notebooks per quarter than Apple.  That's a lot of individuals and enterprises that care.  And while you said it's true about failures, what happen with Apple keyboards is different.  If something as simple as dust can make the keyboard to stop working, that's bad design from Apple. 

    Compare that to Lenovo and Dell.  As part of their MIL-SPEC standards, they test their notebooks under different environments, including dust for 6-hours cycles, among other tests.

    https://cloud.kapostcontent.net/pub/73652f37-9833-481d-a8f6-ff87f2c8ecdc/asset-thinkpad-mil-spec-flyer.pdf?kui=u-JVy1apR1lr6KEYmNyVHw

    https://www3.lenovo.com/hk/en/thisisthinkpad/innovation/thinkpad-mil-spec-tested-to-the-extreme/

    http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/products/latit/en/Dell_Notebook_Durability_Test.pdf

    Don't you think Apple could do better?







    edited July 2018 williamlondonavon b7
  • Reply 29 of 50
    Dan_DilgerDan_Dilger Posts: 1,583member
    danvm said:
    ElCapitan said:
    >However, Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at Windows users lately. Actually Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at a rather large group of existing Mac users either.
    Mini, Mac Pro and to some extent MacBook Pro users have been neglected, pushed out in the cold for years. Add to them macOS Server users, and with the deprecation of OpenGL, an entire class of high end graphics and scientific users from whom the ability of running iOS apps is virtually irrelevant.
    Yes.
    The installed base of Mac users is ~150M. 
    The installed base of iOS users is ~1,150M

    The media narrative that Apple isn't updating Macs reflects the fact that both Mac Pro and Mac mini were shelved for rethinking. The systems that actually sell in quantity are updated as regularly as new Intel chips basically allow. Thing is, Intel chips aren't getting faster very fast. Apple introduced an entirely new iMac Pro, and MBPs are getting annual updates in tandem with new Intel microarchitectures.

    The Mac Pro and the Mini haven't been shelved.  They still being sold, and I think that's the issue.  Intel have been offering processors that have been working in small PC's (even smaller than the Mac Mini) and workstations from HP, Dell and Lenovo for years.  Apple is the only one who haven't update their devices. 

    The doting on MB keyboards is statistically inaccurate. Anyone who has managed fleets of PCs knows that even premium priced laptops fall apart under use and have parts failures. MBPs are pretty solid in comparison. Nobody cares enough about Lenovo or HP etc to turn minor part failures (or class actions of small groups of litigants) into a news story.

    Lenovo and HP sell 2x - 3x more PCs/notebooks per quarter than Apple.  That's a lot of individuals and enterprises that care.  And while you said it's true about failures, what happen with Apple keyboards is different.  If something as simple as dust can make the keyboard to stop working, that's bad design from Apple. 

    Compare that to Lenovo and Dell.  As part of their MIL-SPEC standards, they test their notebooks under different environments, including dust for 6-hours cycles, among other tests.

    https://cloud.kapostcontent.net/pub/73652f37-9833-481d-a8f6-ff87f2c8ecdc/asset-thinkpad-mil-spec-flyer.pdf?kui=u-JVy1apR1lr6KEYmNyVHw

    https://www3.lenovo.com/hk/en/thisisthinkpad/innovation/thinkpad-mil-spec-tested-to-the-extreme/

    http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/products/latit/en/Dell_Notebook_Durability_Test.pdf

    Don't you think Apple could do better?

    Development of the mini and Pro has clearly been "shelved for rethinking." But both of those models, in particular the mini, are not hot sellers at all. most Macs Apple sells are MB/MBP and iMac. Everything else is just holding out.

    Lenovo and HP don't make any money, but they also have customers Apple can't just "win over" with cheaper or refreshed Mac hardware. Xserve is a clear and obvious example of that. Most Windows PC users are either looking for cheap hardware, support contracts, or rolling cheap hardware where every model has a different set of components every month and you have to have an IT department to keep them supported. Apple is not going to rush into a dying market to try to sell Macs to Windows users, which is the obvious truth in the article, not matter how much you want to imagine that Xserve/Mac mini is the way for Apple to expand. That's thinking 10 years behind.

    As for dust, keyboard 
    etc, there's a strong element of bullshit, an overblown notion of what the scope of the issue is, and a total disregard for the fact that Apple can and does ship dust and liquid intrusion resistant hardware: Apple Watch and iPhone 7 onward. If there were a market willing to pay for the engineering of sealed Macs, Apple would be working on that. 

    As it is, the Mac bloggaratti are bitchign about USB-C and "why don't we have SD Cards and USB-A holes" so trying to dignify your dust storm about a nonexistent keyboard crisis is really just excruciating.
    williamlondonRayz2016watto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 50
    netroxnetrox Posts: 1,415member
    I am testing Mojave and I find it nice but at first appearance with klight theme that nothing has changed. But I really love the "iOS style" apps like News and Stock. They are EXACTLY what we need on desktop computers. They're cleaner. More organized. More intuitive. I look forward to more of iOS style apps for Macs.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 50
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    ElCapitan said:
    nht said:
    ElCapitan said:
    ElCapitan said:
    >However, Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at Windows users lately. Actually Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at a rather large group of existing Mac users either.
    Mini, Mac Pro and to some extent MacBook Pro users have been neglected, pushed out in the cold for years. Add to them macOS Server users, and with the deprecation of OpenGL, an entire class of high end graphics and scientific users from whom the ability of running iOS apps is virtually irrelevant.
    Yes.
    The installed base of Mac users is ~150M. 
    The installed base of iOS users is ~1,150M

    The media narrative that Apple isn't updating Macs 

    Media narrative? - What planet are you living on?

    Besides ALL the iOS users are 100% dependent on Macs.

    Not a single app is created without a Mac. 

    NOT catering to the developer community who creates and maintains those apps is over time cutting the branch you sit on. 

    NOT catering to the IT professionals running the backends and infrastructures for those devices in everything from small businesses to large enterprises  is over time cutting the branch you sit on.
    As a dev I can heartily say you’re full of it.

    Docker works fine on my 2016 MBP.  XCode works great. Swift is very nice.  

    If you don’t need mobility then the MBP isn’t designed for you.  Buy an iMac.  If you do need mobility (as in you actually travel) the current MBPs are better than the older ones.

    And with eGPUs you can have both power and mobility, although at slightly higher cost than just an iMac.

    Docker works depending on what you want to run on it. One example is UNMS - Ubiquiti Network Management System they cannot get to work reliably in Docker for macOS.  Besides if you really want to use Docker for anything but hobby and some testing there are virtually no hardware from Apple any more that makes sense to deploy it on. 

    No, the 2016 MBP is not designed for me. For lengthy Xcode builds that routinely takes 50 minutes with all cores active, due to the thermals of the 2016 MBP it starts throttling a few minutes into the build. - NOT GOOD!  

    Even for testing the application stability on that hardware that many users may end up with (for any reason), the GPU also starts throttling after a few minutes. So it is useless. 

    International pricing is also an issue when a moderately configured 2016 MBP 15" set you back over $3700, that is also not very good. 

    In addition there are 4 minis in a setup to properly test the software (backend for multiple clients), and they all are looking long in the tooth since new i7 minis cannot be had. The ability to run multiple processes at full load is much more important than absolute processor speed. 
    1) You don’t deploy production docker instances on Macs.  You develop on Macs and deploy on production servers.  That’s one major reason to use Docker in the first place...so the transition from dev to ops environment is lower.

    2) While Docker For Mac runs on hyperkit, Docker toolbox uses virtual box and UNMS should have no issues.

    3) Unless you are consistently doing 50 min builds on an airplane or hotel room you should have bought an iMac.  What are you building that takes 50 mins anyway?  Why isn’t this being done on your CI server?  XCode 9 now has XCode server built in.  

    4) If your backend is dockerized then you can test on AWS. WTF would you use Docker and then lock yourself to testing on Mac mini’s?

    5) https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Apple/GA4GS3HXXX0XI/

    $1750 4 core Mac Pro.  International Shipping to Europe and maybe some other countries (dunno where you are).  Apple refurbished with 1 year Apple Warranty...maybe.
    williamlondonRayz2016watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 50
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,400member
    danvm said:
    ElCapitan said:
    >However, Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at Windows users lately. Actually Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at a rather large group of existing Mac users either.
    Mini, Mac Pro and to some extent MacBook Pro users have been neglected, pushed out in the cold for years. Add to them macOS Server users, and with the deprecation of OpenGL, an entire class of high end graphics and scientific users from whom the ability of running iOS apps is virtually irrelevant.
    Yes.
    The installed base of Mac users is ~150M. 
    The installed base of iOS users is ~1,150M

    The media narrative that Apple isn't updating Macs reflects the fact that both Mac Pro and Mac mini were shelved for rethinking. The systems that actually sell in quantity are updated as regularly as new Intel chips basically allow. Thing is, Intel chips aren't getting faster very fast. Apple introduced an entirely new iMac Pro, and MBPs are getting annual updates in tandem with new Intel microarchitectures.

    The Mac Pro and the Mini haven't been shelved.  They still being sold, and I think that's the issue.  Intel have been offering processors that have been working in small PC's (even smaller than the Mac Mini) and workstations from HP, Dell and Lenovo for years.  Apple is the only one who haven't update their devices. 

    The doting on MB keyboards is statistically inaccurate. Anyone who has managed fleets of PCs knows that even premium priced laptops fall apart under use and have parts failures. MBPs are pretty solid in comparison. Nobody cares enough about Lenovo or HP etc to turn minor part failures (or class actions of small groups of litigants) into a news story.

    Lenovo and HP sell 2x - 3x more PCs/notebooks per quarter than Apple.  That's a lot of individuals and enterprises that care.  And while you said it's true about failures, what happen with Apple keyboards is different.  If something as simple as dust can make the keyboard to stop working, that's bad design from Apple. 

    Compare that to Lenovo and Dell.  As part of their MIL-SPEC standards, they test their notebooks under different environments, including dust for 6-hours cycles, among other tests.

    https://cloud.kapostcontent.net/pub/73652f37-9833-481d-a8f6-ff87f2c8ecdc/asset-thinkpad-mil-spec-flyer.pdf?kui=u-JVy1apR1lr6KEYmNyVHw

    https://www3.lenovo.com/hk/en/thisisthinkpad/innovation/thinkpad-mil-spec-tested-to-the-extreme/

    http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/products/latit/en/Dell_Notebook_Durability_Test.pdf

    Don't you think Apple could do better?

    Development of the mini and Pro has clearly been "shelved for rethinking." But both of those models, in particular the mini, are not hot sellers at all. most Macs Apple sells are MB/MBP and iMac. Everything else is just holding out.

    If Mac Mini were shelved, you won't see them on shelf's.  Apple still sell them, same as Mac Pro.  If they are going to be "shelved for rethinking", the first thing you have to do is take them out of the shelf's. 

    Lenovo and HP don't make any money, but they also have customers Apple can't just "win over" with cheaper or refreshed Mac hardware. Xserve is a clear and obvious example of that. Most Windows PC users are either looking for cheap hardware, support contracts, or rolling cheap hardware where every model has a different set of components every month and you have to have an IT department to keep them supported. Apple is not going to rush into a dying market to try to sell Macs to Windows users, which is the obvious truth in the article, not matter how much you want to imagine that Xserve/Mac mini is the way for Apple to expand. That's thinking 10 years behind.

    They make money, and while it's not as much as a Apple, it's enough to make their notebooks good enough to pass Mil-SPEC 810G certification.  Maybe Apple should do better than what they are doing today, and I'm not talking about money/revenue. 

    Second, I'm not talking about cheap hardware.  As an example, the NVidia GP100 GPU for the Z8 workstation cost is $7500 (That's more expensive than an iMac Pro), while a top spec Z8 can go up to $100K. Same as Thinkpads and Elitebooks, than can go as expensive or higher than MBP's. 

    As for dust, keyboard etc, there's a strong element of bullshit, an overblown notion of what the scope of the issue is, and a total disregard for the fact that Apple can and does ship dust and liquid intrusion resistant hardware: Apple Watch and iPhone 7 onward. If there were a market willing to pay for the engineering of sealed Macs, Apple would be working on that. 

    As it is, the Mac bloggaratti are bitchign about USB-C and "why don't we have SD Cards and USB-A holes" so trying to dignify your dust storm about a nonexistent keyboard crisis is really just excruciating.
    If it was overblown, why Apple launch a repair program for Macbook and Macbook Pro's?  In addition, you don't have to seal a notebook to make it water resistant,

    Some Thinkpads, as well Elitebooks from HP, are spill resistant while keeping the benefit of upgrading RAM and HDD/PCIe SSD.  No need to seal them. 

    As it is, the Mac bloggaratti are bitchign about USB-C and "why don't we have SD Cards and USB-A holes" so trying to dignify your dust storm about a nonexistent keyboard crisis is really just excruciating.
    Again, if there is no issues with Macbook / Macbook Pro keyboards, why the repair program?

    edited July 2018 williamlondonmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 33 of 50
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 372member
    nht said:
    ElCapitan said:
    nht said:
    ElCapitan said:
    ElCapitan said:
    >However, Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at Windows users lately. Actually Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at a rather large group of existing Mac users either.
    Mini, Mac Pro and to some extent MacBook Pro users have been neglected, pushed out in the cold for years. Add to them macOS Server users, and with the deprecation of OpenGL, an entire class of high end graphics and scientific users from whom the ability of running iOS apps is virtually irrelevant.
    Yes.
    The installed base of Mac users is ~150M. 
    The installed base of iOS users is ~1,150M

    The media narrative that Apple isn't updating Macs 

    Media narrative? - What planet are you living on?

    Besides ALL the iOS users are 100% dependent on Macs.

    Not a single app is created without a Mac. 

    NOT catering to the developer community who creates and maintains those apps is over time cutting the branch you sit on. 

    NOT catering to the IT professionals running the backends and infrastructures for those devices in everything from small businesses to large enterprises  is over time cutting the branch you sit on.
    As a dev I can heartily say you’re full of it.

    Docker works fine on my 2016 MBP.  XCode works great. Swift is very nice.  

    If you don’t need mobility then the MBP isn’t designed for you.  Buy an iMac.  If you do need mobility (as in you actually travel) the current MBPs are better than the older ones.

    And with eGPUs you can have both power and mobility, although at slightly higher cost than just an iMac.

    Docker works depending on what you want to run on it. One example is UNMS - Ubiquiti Network Management System they cannot get to work reliably in Docker for macOS.  Besides if you really want to use Docker for anything but hobby and some testing there are virtually no hardware from Apple any more that makes sense to deploy it on. 

    No, the 2016 MBP is not designed for me. For lengthy Xcode builds that routinely takes 50 minutes with all cores active, due to the thermals of the 2016 MBP it starts throttling a few minutes into the build. - NOT GOOD!  

    Even for testing the application stability on that hardware that many users may end up with (for any reason), the GPU also starts throttling after a few minutes. So it is useless. 

    International pricing is also an issue when a moderately configured 2016 MBP 15" set you back over $3700, that is also not very good. 

    In addition there are 4 minis in a setup to properly test the software (backend for multiple clients), and they all are looking long in the tooth since new i7 minis cannot be had. The ability to run multiple processes at full load is much more important than absolute processor speed. 
    1) You don’t deploy production docker instances on Macs.  You develop on Macs and deploy on production servers.  That’s one major reason to use Docker in the first place...so the transition from dev to ops environment is lower.

    2) While Docker For Mac runs on hyperkit, Docker toolbox uses virtual box and UNMS should have no issues.

    3) Unless you are consistently doing 50 min builds on an airplane or hotel room you should have bought an iMac.  What are you building that takes 50 mins anyway?  Why isn’t this being done on your CI server?  XCode 9 now has XCode server built in.  

    4) If your backend is dockerized then you can test on AWS. WTF would you use Docker and then lock yourself to testing on Mac mini’s?

    5) https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Apple/GA4GS3HXXX0XI/

    $1750 4 core Mac Pro.  International Shipping to Europe and maybe some other countries (dunno where you are).  Apple refurbished with 1 year Apple Warranty...maybe.

    1. No I don't.

    If you happened to pay attention I said i7 minis in the test environment. – You know the species that went extinct around 2012 only to be spotted on eBay since. A species that existed even before Docker for macOS even was a remote possibility. So neither test nor production is dockerized (and even if it can be, it will just need more memory and resources overall.)

    Also it used to be that businesses could deploy their production to Apple hardware. It could even be racked alongside the other production servers. 

    With the removal of anything server from Apple's portfolio, I suppose you could always put a bunch of iPad Pro's in a nice rack enclose and use them as "blade servers". </sarc>

    2-5. You just confirmed what I said, Apple's most Pro portable cannot be used as a developer machine if you throw at it lengthy builds. – You have to have an iMac, and a CI server with Xcode 9. God forbid being a developer who move between offices, meeting rooms and clients all day, who work in an environment where you don't have a fixed desk, who demo solutions or discuss ideas at client locations. - NO, you have to have an iMac!

    The 4 core Mac Pro - seriously?? 2013 tech?  This config? has 75% of the memory I have in my MBP, 1/4 of the SSD storage. Not a single user of the app will have this machine, so it isn't even a valid test config. 

    And what's with the building that takes 50 minutes anyway.  - You're winning there too because this baby will soon go away like every other solution using OpenGL. Problem solved! Another of those pesky Mac users gone...

    I guess I am holding my iPhone wrong too.
    edited July 2018 avon b7williamlondonmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 34 of 50
    lwiolwio Posts: 110member
    Great article as usual Daniel there is one thing I would slightly disagree on. 
    Macs are not easy for all young people to get into they are expensive compared to their cheaply made rivals. 
    I think it would be great to see Apple coming in with a MacBook Air at just above cost price. Yes I know they need to make money but I’m also a great believer in that saying “Once you go Mac you’ll not go back”.
    Once into the Apple ecosystem with macOS and iOS they will most likely stay for life. 


  • Reply 35 of 50
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    ElCapitan said:
    nht said:
    ElCapitan said:
    nht said:
    ElCapitan said:
    ElCapitan said:
    >However, Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at Windows users lately. Actually Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at a rather large group of existing Mac users either.
    Mini, Mac Pro and to some extent MacBook Pro users have been neglected, pushed out in the cold for years. Add to them macOS Server users, and with the deprecation of OpenGL, an entire class of high end graphics and scientific users from whom the ability of running iOS apps is virtually irrelevant.
    Yes.
    The installed base of Mac users is ~150M. 
    The installed base of iOS users is ~1,150M

    The media narrative that Apple isn't updating Macs 

    Media narrative? - What planet are you living on?

    Besides ALL the iOS users are 100% dependent on Macs.

    Not a single app is created without a Mac. 

    NOT catering to the developer community who creates and maintains those apps is over time cutting the branch you sit on. 

    NOT catering to the IT professionals running the backends and infrastructures for those devices in everything from small businesses to large enterprises  is over time cutting the branch you sit on.
    As a dev I can heartily say you’re full of it.

    Docker works fine on my 2016 MBP.  XCode works great. Swift is very nice.  

    If you don’t need mobility then the MBP isn’t designed for you.  Buy an iMac.  If you do need mobility (as in you actually travel) the current MBPs are better than the older ones.

    And with eGPUs you can have both power and mobility, although at slightly higher cost than just an iMac.

    Docker works depending on what you want to run on it. One example is UNMS - Ubiquiti Network Management System they cannot get to work reliably in Docker for macOS.  Besides if you really want to use Docker for anything but hobby and some testing there are virtually no hardware from Apple any more that makes sense to deploy it on. 

    No, the 2016 MBP is not designed for me. For lengthy Xcode builds that routinely takes 50 minutes with all cores active, due to the thermals of the 2016 MBP it starts throttling a few minutes into the build. - NOT GOOD!  

    Even for testing the application stability on that hardware that many users may end up with (for any reason), the GPU also starts throttling after a few minutes. So it is useless. 

    International pricing is also an issue when a moderately configured 2016 MBP 15" set you back over $3700, that is also not very good. 

    In addition there are 4 minis in a setup to properly test the software (backend for multiple clients), and they all are looking long in the tooth since new i7 minis cannot be had. The ability to run multiple processes at full load is much more important than absolute processor speed. 
    1) You don’t deploy production docker instances on Macs.  You develop on Macs and deploy on production servers.  That’s one major reason to use Docker in the first place...so the transition from dev to ops environment is lower.

    2) While Docker For Mac runs on hyperkit, Docker toolbox uses virtual box and UNMS should have no issues.

    3) Unless you are consistently doing 50 min builds on an airplane or hotel room you should have bought an iMac.  What are you building that takes 50 mins anyway?  Why isn’t this being done on your CI server?  XCode 9 now has XCode server built in.  

    4) If your backend is dockerized then you can test on AWS. WTF would you use Docker and then lock yourself to testing on Mac mini’s?

    5) https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Apple/GA4GS3HXXX0XI/

    $1750 4 core Mac Pro.  International Shipping to Europe and maybe some other countries (dunno where you are).  Apple refurbished with 1 year Apple Warranty...maybe.

    1. No I don't.

    If you happened to pay attention I said i7 minis in the test environment. – You know the species that went extinct around 2012 only to be spotted on eBay since. A species that existed even before Docker for macOS even was a remote possibility. So neither test nor production is dockerized (and even if it can be, it will just need more memory and resources overall.)

    Also it used to be that businesses could deploy their production to Apple hardware. It could even be racked alongside the other production servers. 

    With the removal of anything server from Apple's portfolio, I suppose you could always put a bunch of iPad Pro's in a nice rack enclose and use them as "blade servers". </sarc>

    2-5. You just confirmed what I said, Apple's most Pro portable cannot be used as a developer machine if you throw at it lengthy builds. – You have to have an iMac, and a CI server with Xcode 9. God forbid being a developer who move between offices, meeting rooms and clients all day, who work in an environment where you don't have a fixed desk, who demo solutions or discuss ideas at client locations. - NO, you have to have an iMac!

    The 4 core Mac Pro - seriously?? 2013 tech?  This config? has 75% of the memory I have in my MBP, 1/4 of the SSD storage. Not a single user of the app will have this machine, so it isn't even a valid test config. 

    And what's with the building that takes 50 minutes anyway.  - You're winning there too because this baby will soon go away like every other solution using OpenGL. Problem solved! Another of those pesky Mac users gone...

    I guess I am holding my iPhone wrong too.
    Another “expert” unwilling to use modern workflows and prefer to do it the 2008 way.

    1) if you don’t use modern dev ops then too bad for you.  The back end stuff can and should run anywhere.  Testing on minis is stupid.  The minor resource cost penalty for Docker is well worth the savings in deployment.  Deploying in the cloud is a lot better than self managed xserves.

    2) you don’t rebuild demos at the client site and certainly not for 50 mins. If you are a dumbshit crippling your devs to work on a 15” screens on a regular basis you deserve what you get.  That’s ignoring that in an office environment you should have fast networking and able to hit your ci servers to rebuild as needed.  And 50 min rebuild time implies you are using your build system wrong whatever it is and your dependency graphs are completely hosed.

    At the startup I was at the primary devs had high end iMacs with a second 4K display because that was just a lot more productive than working with just a laptop.  There were demo laptops to use at client sites.  Only devs that regularly developed at client sites had MBP and often it was easier to just fedex an iMac to the client site than carry a huge desktop replacement laptop like the Dell Precision around.

    3) you use the Mac pros as inexpensive CI machines moron and you can add as much memory and storage as needed.  It’s cheap and fast and 2013 or not those machines work well.

    4) if you are so stupid you are unable to deploy your app with Vulkan over the next few YEARS before OpenGL is removed (if ever) you deserve to be left behind

    Whether you use Macs or PCs running Windows or Linux makes no difference. You’re doing things in a stupid way.  Devs needs screens and work spaces that don’t suck.  Preferably quiet workspaces so they can actually code and not “cool open concept” and shared  spaces where it is hard to concentrate.  They are more productive with modern workflows, tools and first class devops support.  Testing can and should be done with automated regression tests as part of your CI builds and system testing done on target platforms and not minis.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 36 of 50
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    nht said:
    ElCapitan said:
    nht said:
    ElCapitan said:
    nht said:
    ElCapitan said:
    ElCapitan said:
    >However, Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at Windows users lately. Actually Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at a rather large group of existing Mac users either.
    Mini, Mac Pro and to some extent MacBook Pro users have been neglected, pushed out in the cold for years. Add to them macOS Server users, and with the deprecation of OpenGL, an entire class of high end graphics and scientific users from whom the ability of running iOS apps is virtually irrelevant.
    Yes.
    The installed base of Mac users is ~150M. 
    The installed base of iOS users is ~1,150M

    The media narrative that Apple isn't updating Macs 

    Media narrative? - What planet are you living on?

    Besides ALL the iOS users are 100% dependent on Macs.

    Not a single app is created without a Mac. 

    NOT catering to the developer community who creates and maintains those apps is over time cutting the branch you sit on. 

    NOT catering to the IT professionals running the backends and infrastructures for those devices in everything from small businesses to large enterprises  is over time cutting the branch you sit on.
    As a dev I can heartily say you’re full of it.

    Docker works fine on my 2016 MBP.  XCode works great. Swift is very nice.  

    If you don’t need mobility then the MBP isn’t designed for you.  Buy an iMac.  If you do need mobility (as in you actually travel) the current MBPs are better than the older ones.

    And with eGPUs you can have both power and mobility, although at slightly higher cost than just an iMac.

    Docker works depending on what you want to run on it. One example is UNMS - Ubiquiti Network Management System they cannot get to work reliably in Docker for macOS.  Besides if you really want to use Docker for anything but hobby and some testing there are virtually no hardware from Apple any more that makes sense to deploy it on. 

    No, the 2016 MBP is not designed for me. For lengthy Xcode builds that routinely takes 50 minutes with all cores active, due to the thermals of the 2016 MBP it starts throttling a few minutes into the build. - NOT GOOD!  

    Even for testing the application stability on that hardware that many users may end up with (for any reason), the GPU also starts throttling after a few minutes. So it is useless. 

    International pricing is also an issue when a moderately configured 2016 MBP 15" set you back over $3700, that is also not very good. 

    In addition there are 4 minis in a setup to properly test the software (backend for multiple clients), and they all are looking long in the tooth since new i7 minis cannot be had. The ability to run multiple processes at full load is much more important than absolute processor speed. 
    1) You don’t deploy production docker instances on Macs.  You develop on Macs and deploy on production servers.  That’s one major reason to use Docker in the first place...so the transition from dev to ops environment is lower.

    2) While Docker For Mac runs on hyperkit, Docker toolbox uses virtual box and UNMS should have no issues.

    3) Unless you are consistently doing 50 min builds on an airplane or hotel room you should have bought an iMac.  What are you building that takes 50 mins anyway?  Why isn’t this being done on your CI server?  XCode 9 now has XCode server built in.  

    4) If your backend is dockerized then you can test on AWS. WTF would you use Docker and then lock yourself to testing on Mac mini’s?

    5) https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Apple/GA4GS3HXXX0XI/

    $1750 4 core Mac Pro.  International Shipping to Europe and maybe some other countries (dunno where you are).  Apple refurbished with 1 year Apple Warranty...maybe.

    1. No I don't.

    If you happened to pay attention I said i7 minis in the test environment. – You know the species that went extinct around 2012 only to be spotted on eBay since. A species that existed even before Docker for macOS even was a remote possibility. So neither test nor production is dockerized (and even if it can be, it will just need more memory and resources overall.)

    Also it used to be that businesses could deploy their production to Apple hardware. It could even be racked alongside the other production servers. 

    With the removal of anything server from Apple's portfolio, I suppose you could always put a bunch of iPad Pro's in a nice rack enclose and use them as "blade servers". </sarc>

    2-5. You just confirmed what I said, Apple's most Pro portable cannot be used as a developer machine if you throw at it lengthy builds. – You have to have an iMac, and a CI server with Xcode 9. God forbid being a developer who move between offices, meeting rooms and clients all day, who work in an environment where you don't have a fixed desk, who demo solutions or discuss ideas at client locations. - NO, you have to have an iMac!

    The 4 core Mac Pro - seriously?? 2013 tech?  This config? has 75% of the memory I have in my MBP, 1/4 of the SSD storage. Not a single user of the app will have this machine, so it isn't even a valid test config. 

    And what's with the building that takes 50 minutes anyway.  - You're winning there too because this baby will soon go away like every other solution using OpenGL. Problem solved! Another of those pesky Mac users gone...

    I guess I am holding my iPhone wrong too.
    Another “expert” unwilling to use modern workflows and prefer to do it the 2008 way.

    1) if you don’t use modern dev ops then too bad for you.  The back end stuff can and should run anywhere.  Testing on minis is stupid.  The minor resource cost penalty for Docker is well worth the savings in deployment.  Deploying in the cloud is a lot better than self managed xserves.

    2) you don’t rebuild demos at the client site and certainly not for 50 mins. If you are a dumbshit crippling your devs to work on a 15” screens on a regular basis you deserve what you get.  That’s ignoring that in an office environment you should have fast networking and able to hit your ci servers to rebuild as needed.  And 50 min rebuild time implies you are using your build system wrong whatever it is and your dependency graphs are completely hosed.

    At the startup I was at the primary devs had high end iMacs with a second 4K display because that was just a lot more productive than working with just a laptop.  There were demo laptops to use at client sites.  Only devs that regularly developed at client sites had MBP and often it was easier to just fedex an iMac to the client site than carry a huge desktop replacement laptop like the Dell Precision around.

    3) you use the Mac pros as inexpensive CI machines moron and you can add as much memory and storage as needed.  It’s cheap and fast and 2013 or not those machines work well.

    4) if you are so stupid you are unable to deploy your app with Vulkan over the next few YEARS before OpenGL is removed (if ever) you deserve to be left behind

    Whether you use Macs or PCs running Windows or Linux makes no difference. You’re doing things in a stupid way.  Devs needs screens and work spaces that don’t suck.  Preferably quiet workspaces so they can actually code and not “cool open concept” and shared  spaces where it is hard to concentrate.  They are more productive with modern workflows, tools and first class devops support.  Testing can and should be done with automated regression tests as part of your CI builds and system testing done on target platforms and not minis.

    I used to work for an outfit that took a laptop and then remoted into the production app running at the office. I’ve also have a friend who visits clients and runs the demos from a virtual machine run by Amazon. Saves a lot of time loading and unloading data and apps on twelve demo laptops. 
    williamlondon
  • Reply 37 of 50
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 372member
    nht said:
    ElCapitan said:
    nht said:
    ElCapitan said:
    nht said:
    ElCapitan said:
    ElCapitan said:
    >However, Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at Windows users lately. Actually Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at a rather large group of existing Mac users either.
    Mini, Mac Pro and to some extent MacBook Pro users have been neglected, pushed out in the cold for years. Add to them macOS Server users, and with the deprecation of OpenGL, an entire class of high end graphics and scientific users from whom the ability of running iOS apps is virtually irrelevant.
    Yes.
    The installed base of Mac users is ~150M. 
    The installed base of iOS users is ~1,150M

    The media narrative that Apple isn't updating Macs 

    Media narrative? - What planet are you living on?

    Besides ALL the iOS users are 100% dependent on Macs.

    Not a single app is created without a Mac. 

    NOT catering to the developer community who creates and maintains those apps is over time cutting the branch you sit on. 

    NOT catering to the IT professionals running the backends and infrastructures for those devices in everything from small businesses to large enterprises  is over time cutting the branch you sit on.
    As a dev I can heartily say you’re full of it.

    Docker works fine on my 2016 MBP.  XCode works great. Swift is very nice.  

    If you don’t need mobility then the MBP isn’t designed for you.  Buy an iMac.  If you do need mobility (as in you actually travel) the current MBPs are better than the older ones.

    And with eGPUs you can have both power and mobility, although at slightly higher cost than just an iMac.

    Docker works depending on what you want to run on it. One example is UNMS - Ubiquiti Network Management System they cannot get to work reliably in Docker for macOS.  Besides if you really want to use Docker for anything but hobby and some testing there are virtually no hardware from Apple any more that makes sense to deploy it on. 

    No, the 2016 MBP is not designed for me. For lengthy Xcode builds that routinely takes 50 minutes with all cores active, due to the thermals of the 2016 MBP it starts throttling a few minutes into the build. - NOT GOOD!  

    Even for testing the application stability on that hardware that many users may end up with (for any reason), the GPU also starts throttling after a few minutes. So it is useless. 

    International pricing is also an issue when a moderately configured 2016 MBP 15" set you back over $3700, that is also not very good. 

    In addition there are 4 minis in a setup to properly test the software (backend for multiple clients), and they all are looking long in the tooth since new i7 minis cannot be had. The ability to run multiple processes at full load is much more important than absolute processor speed. 
    1) You don’t deploy production docker instances on Macs.  You develop on Macs and deploy on production servers.  That’s one major reason to use Docker in the first place...so the transition from dev to ops environment is lower.

    2) While Docker For Mac runs on hyperkit, Docker toolbox uses virtual box and UNMS should have no issues.

    3) Unless you are consistently doing 50 min builds on an airplane or hotel room you should have bought an iMac.  What are you building that takes 50 mins anyway?  Why isn’t this being done on your CI server?  XCode 9 now has XCode server built in.  

    4) If your backend is dockerized then you can test on AWS. WTF would you use Docker and then lock yourself to testing on Mac mini’s?

    5) https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Apple/GA4GS3HXXX0XI/

    $1750 4 core Mac Pro.  International Shipping to Europe and maybe some other countries (dunno where you are).  Apple refurbished with 1 year Apple Warranty...maybe.

    1. No I don't.

    If you happened to pay attention I said i7 minis in the test environment. – You know the species that went extinct around 2012 only to be spotted on eBay since. A species that existed even before Docker for macOS even was a remote possibility. So neither test nor production is dockerized (and even if it can be, it will just need more memory and resources overall.)

    Also it used to be that businesses could deploy their production to Apple hardware. It could even be racked alongside the other production servers. 

    With the removal of anything server from Apple's portfolio, I suppose you could always put a bunch of iPad Pro's in a nice rack enclose and use them as "blade servers". </sarc>

    2-5. You just confirmed what I said, Apple's most Pro portable cannot be used as a developer machine if you throw at it lengthy builds. – You have to have an iMac, and a CI server with Xcode 9. God forbid being a developer who move between offices, meeting rooms and clients all day, who work in an environment where you don't have a fixed desk, who demo solutions or discuss ideas at client locations. - NO, you have to have an iMac!

    The 4 core Mac Pro - seriously?? 2013 tech?  This config? has 75% of the memory I have in my MBP, 1/4 of the SSD storage. Not a single user of the app will have this machine, so it isn't even a valid test config. 

    And what's with the building that takes 50 minutes anyway.  - You're winning there too because this baby will soon go away like every other solution using OpenGL. Problem solved! Another of those pesky Mac users gone...

    I guess I am holding my iPhone wrong too.
    Another “expert” unwilling to use modern workflows and prefer to do it the 2008 way.

    1) if you don’t use modern dev ops then too bad for you.  The back end stuff can and should run anywhere.  Testing on minis is stupid.  The minor resource cost penalty for Docker is well worth the savings in deployment.  Deploying in the cloud is a lot better than self managed xserves.

    2) you don’t rebuild demos at the client site and certainly not for 50 mins. If you are a dumbshit crippling your devs to work on a 15” screens on a regular basis you deserve what you get.  That’s ignoring that in an office environment you should have fast networking and able to hit your ci servers to rebuild as needed.  And 50 min rebuild time implies you are using your build system wrong whatever it is and your dependency graphs are completely hosed.

    At the startup I was at the primary devs had high end iMacs with a second 4K display because that was just a lot more productive than working with just a laptop.  There were demo laptops to use at client sites.  Only devs that regularly developed at client sites had MBP and often it was easier to just fedex an iMac to the client site than carry a huge desktop replacement laptop like the Dell Precision around.

    3) you use the Mac pros as inexpensive CI machines moron and you can add as much memory and storage as needed.  It’s cheap and fast and 2013 or not those machines work well.

    4) if you are so stupid you are unable to deploy your app with Vulkan over the next few YEARS before OpenGL is removed (if ever) you deserve to be left behind

    Whether you use Macs or PCs running Windows or Linux makes no difference. You’re doing things in a stupid way.  Devs needs screens and work spaces that don’t suck.  Preferably quiet workspaces so they can actually code and not “cool open concept” and shared  spaces where it is hard to concentrate.  They are more productive with modern workflows, tools and first class devops support.  Testing can and should be done with automated regression tests as part of your CI builds and system testing done on target platforms and not minis.

    4. What is Apple's support of Vulcan? - ZERO!  So that sounds like a brilliant strategy for future development if you want to stay on their platforms. 

    The rest of your post is just a bunch of spew! 
    williamlondon
  • Reply 38 of 50
    ElCapitan said:
    nht said:
    ElCapitan said:
    nht said:
    ElCapitan said:
    ElCapitan said:
    >However, Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at Windows users lately. Actually Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at a rather large group of existing Mac users either.
    Mini, Mac Pro and to some extent MacBook Pro users have been neglected, pushed out in the cold for years. Add to them macOS Server users, and with the deprecation of OpenGL, an entire class of high end graphics and scientific users from whom the ability of running iOS apps is virtually irrelevant.
    Yes.
    The installed base of Mac users is ~150M. 
    The installed base of iOS users is ~1,150M

    The media narrative that Apple isn't updating Macs 

    Media narrative? - What planet are you living on?

    Besides ALL the iOS users are 100% dependent on Macs.

    Not a single app is created without a Mac. 

    NOT catering to the developer community who creates and maintains those apps is over time cutting the branch you sit on. 

    NOT catering to the IT professionals running the backends and infrastructures for those devices in everything from small businesses to large enterprises  is over time cutting the branch you sit on.
    As a dev I can heartily say you’re full of it.

    Docker works fine on my 2016 MBP.  XCode works great. Swift is very nice.  

    If you don’t need mobility then the MBP isn’t designed for you.  Buy an iMac.  If you do need mobility (as in you actually travel) the current MBPs are better than the older ones.

    And with eGPUs you can have both power and mobility, although at slightly higher cost than just an iMac.

    Docker works depending on what you want to run on it. One example is UNMS - Ubiquiti Network Management System they cannot get to work reliably in Docker for macOS.  Besides if you really want to use Docker for anything but hobby and some testing there are virtually no hardware from Apple any more that makes sense to deploy it on. 

    No, the 2016 MBP is not designed for me. For lengthy Xcode builds that routinely takes 50 minutes with all cores active, due to the thermals of the 2016 MBP it starts throttling a few minutes into the build. - NOT GOOD!  

    Even for testing the application stability on that hardware that many users may end up with (for any reason), the GPU also starts throttling after a few minutes. So it is useless. 

    International pricing is also an issue when a moderately configured 2016 MBP 15" set you back over $3700, that is also not very good. 

    In addition there are 4 minis in a setup to properly test the software (backend for multiple clients), and they all are looking long in the tooth since new i7 minis cannot be had. The ability to run multiple processes at full load is much more important than absolute processor speed. 
    1) You don’t deploy production docker instances on Macs.  You develop on Macs and deploy on production servers.  That’s one major reason to use Docker in the first place...so the transition from dev to ops environment is lower.

    2) While Docker For Mac runs on hyperkit, Docker toolbox uses virtual box and UNMS should have no issues.

    3) Unless you are consistently doing 50 min builds on an airplane or hotel room you should have bought an iMac.  What are you building that takes 50 mins anyway?  Why isn’t this being done on your CI server?  XCode 9 now has XCode server built in.  

    4) If your backend is dockerized then you can test on AWS. WTF would you use Docker and then lock yourself to testing on Mac mini’s?

    5) https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Apple/GA4GS3HXXX0XI/

    $1750 4 core Mac Pro.  International Shipping to Europe and maybe some other countries (dunno where you are).  Apple refurbished with 1 year Apple Warranty...maybe.

    Also it used to be that businesses could deploy their production to Apple hardware. It could even be racked alongside the other production servers. 

    With the removal of anything server from Apple's portfolio, I suppose you could always put a bunch of iPad Pro's in a nice rack enclose and use them as "blade servers". </sarc>

    The 4 core Mac Pro - seriously?? 2013 tech?  This config? has 75% of the memory I have in my MBP, 1/4 of the SSD storage. Not a single user of the app will have this machine, so it isn't even a valid test config. 
    May be not a bunch of iPad Pros, but certainly, iMacPros, since 2013:
    https://www.slashgear.com/imac-pro-server-rack-macstadium-private-cloud-02532722/

    And, even the '2013 tech' MacPros that you deride, 270 of them in 12 square feet of datacentre space, again since 2013:
    http://www.iclarified.com/31226/macstadium-builds-server-rack-for-mac-pro-hosting-and-colocation

    You really should check out MacStadium, if you're that invested in the Mac minis.
    edited July 2018
  • Reply 39 of 50
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 372member
    ElCapitan said:
    nht said:
    ElCapitan said:
    nht said:
    ElCapitan said:
    ElCapitan said:
    >However, Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at Windows users lately. Actually Apple hasn't been actively pushing Macs at a rather large group of existing Mac users either.
    Mini, Mac Pro and to some extent MacBook Pro users have been neglected, pushed out in the cold for years. Add to them macOS Server users, and with the deprecation of OpenGL, an entire class of high end graphics and scientific users from whom the ability of running iOS apps is virtually irrelevant.
    Yes.
    The installed base of Mac users is ~150M. 
    The installed base of iOS users is ~1,150M

    The media narrative that Apple isn't updating Macs 

    Media narrative? - What planet are you living on?

    Besides ALL the iOS users are 100% dependent on Macs.

    Not a single app is created without a Mac. 

    NOT catering to the developer community who creates and maintains those apps is over time cutting the branch you sit on. 

    NOT catering to the IT professionals running the backends and infrastructures for those devices in everything from small businesses to large enterprises  is over time cutting the branch you sit on.
    As a dev I can heartily say you’re full of it.

    Docker works fine on my 2016 MBP.  XCode works great. Swift is very nice.  

    If you don’t need mobility then the MBP isn’t designed for you.  Buy an iMac.  If you do need mobility (as in you actually travel) the current MBPs are better than the older ones.

    And with eGPUs you can have both power and mobility, although at slightly higher cost than just an iMac.

    Docker works depending on what you want to run on it. One example is UNMS - Ubiquiti Network Management System they cannot get to work reliably in Docker for macOS.  Besides if you really want to use Docker for anything but hobby and some testing there are virtually no hardware from Apple any more that makes sense to deploy it on. 

    No, the 2016 MBP is not designed for me. For lengthy Xcode builds that routinely takes 50 minutes with all cores active, due to the thermals of the 2016 MBP it starts throttling a few minutes into the build. - NOT GOOD!  

    Even for testing the application stability on that hardware that many users may end up with (for any reason), the GPU also starts throttling after a few minutes. So it is useless. 

    International pricing is also an issue when a moderately configured 2016 MBP 15" set you back over $3700, that is also not very good. 

    In addition there are 4 minis in a setup to properly test the software (backend for multiple clients), and they all are looking long in the tooth since new i7 minis cannot be had. The ability to run multiple processes at full load is much more important than absolute processor speed. 
    1) You don’t deploy production docker instances on Macs.  You develop on Macs and deploy on production servers.  That’s one major reason to use Docker in the first place...so the transition from dev to ops environment is lower.

    2) While Docker For Mac runs on hyperkit, Docker toolbox uses virtual box and UNMS should have no issues.

    3) Unless you are consistently doing 50 min builds on an airplane or hotel room you should have bought an iMac.  What are you building that takes 50 mins anyway?  Why isn’t this being done on your CI server?  XCode 9 now has XCode server built in.  

    4) If your backend is dockerized then you can test on AWS. WTF would you use Docker and then lock yourself to testing on Mac mini’s?

    5) https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Apple/GA4GS3HXXX0XI/

    $1750 4 core Mac Pro.  International Shipping to Europe and maybe some other countries (dunno where you are).  Apple refurbished with 1 year Apple Warranty...maybe.

    Also it used to be that businesses could deploy their production to Apple hardware. It could even be racked alongside the other production servers. 

    With the removal of anything server from Apple's portfolio, I suppose you could always put a bunch of iPad Pro's in a nice rack enclose and use them as "blade servers". </sarc>

    The 4 core Mac Pro - seriously?? 2013 tech?  This config? has 75% of the memory I have in my MBP, 1/4 of the SSD storage. Not a single user of the app will have this machine, so it isn't even a valid test config. 
    May be not a bunch of iPad Pros, but certainly, iMacPros, since 2013:
    https://www.slashgear.com/imac-pro-server-rack-macstadium-private-cloud-02532722/

    And, even the '2013 tech' MacPros that you deride, 270 of them in 12 square feet of datacentre space, again since 2013:
    http://www.iclarified.com/31226/macstadium-builds-server-rack-for-mac-pro-hosting-and-colocation

    You really should check out MacStadium, if you're that invested in the Mac minis.
    There are many clever solutions, but these are not particularly space or service friendly.  In my view it serves to illustrate there is a need for space efficient server centric hardware also from Apple. 
  • Reply 40 of 50
    wozwoz said:
    I have noticed that iPads are very popular with 5 to 10 year olds:  the parents give it to them to shut the kids up, and they doodle away with it on the couch (instead of sitting in front of the idiot box).
    spoken like a true non-parent lol. my kids, 6 and 2 have an iPad mini each and while I limit their time on them, the time they DO spend on them is mostly educational and always fun. My son is 2 years ahead in his reading/writing and a year ahead of his class in maths thanks in part to certain educational apps. It's never an excuse to keep them quiet - those type of parents tend to have androids and amazon tablets ;)
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