The Touch Bar on the MacBook Pro is well implemented, but serves no useful purpose

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  • Reply 161 of 190
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 441member
    Soli said:
    ElCapitan said:
    Soli said:
    I am surprised that no one has mentioned the biggest problem with the TouchBar. It is unusable for someone who is visually impaired. I have a friend that has used the MacIntosh since the first one in 1984. He uses all of the accessibility options for a visually impaired person. He cannot see or feel the different keys on the TouchBar. This is the first computer that Apple has made that he cannot use at all. He actually bought one and had to return it when he couldn't use it. He is a touch typist and had problems when they changed the spacing on the keys before the TouchBar, but nothing like the ones he had with the TouchBar. He uses the esc key to read to him what he has selected on the screen. He can't find the esc key. Since he can't feel it, he doesn't know when he is on it. His vision is bad enough that the minimum size he can see on the screen is expanded 20 times. So imagine a TouchBar that you can't see or feel and that moves what is on it, depending on what application you are in.

    i am very disappointed in Apple, since in the past they were always the best for visually impaired people. In this case they obviously never even thought about the effect on this group of people at all. Just so you know, I prefer to use MacIntosh computers. I was employed at Apple for 12 years as a software engineer. 

     Blackbird
    1) Based on your comments Apple are bunch of insensitive pricks for making the iPhone and iPad, too, since you don't consider any of the Accessibility options they've added to  their touch-based OSes for the visually impaired.

    2) I guess all the effort Apple is spearheading with the USB-iF for adding universal Braille support is just a bunch of bullshit. Or… you're the one that's making shit up.


    3) I guess you also haven't considered that most Macs being sold come with the standard 'fn' keys and that you can use any number of other keyboards with the few Macs that do come with the Touch Bar. But why would an obvious troll actually put any thought into a comment?
    He wasn't trolling, but has some legitimate concern. 

    Come to think about it, you're the one constantly trolling these threads by attacking anyone who's got real concerns with the direction Apple is taking their hardware products. 

    Also, what Apple may or may not be doing/developing for a future product is completely irrelevant for the use case of a current product.
    It is not available for that user till it has been released, and maybe even not then, as the user may have to purchase another product to use the feature. 
    It’s not a legitimate concern because Apple has addressed it across multiple vectors, as Appleawsys does. The fact that you and him ignore these obvious facts means that you two are trolling, especially you after being informed that Apple has all the same accessibility options for Touch Bar that they do for all iOS-based devices on macOS.
    At this point I'm more worried if Apple just dropped the touch bar as a "failure".  Considering most commentators just gives a negative review and only minor communities decided to dig down more feature, they might just cancel for the sake of "pro" happiness.
  • Reply 162 of 190
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 193member
    Soli said:
    ElCapitan said:
    Soli said:
    I am surprised that no one has mentioned the biggest problem with the TouchBar. It is unusable for someone who is visually impaired. I have a friend that has used the MacIntosh since the first one in 1984. He uses all of the accessibility options for a visually impaired person. He cannot see or feel the different keys on the TouchBar. This is the first computer that Apple has made that he cannot use at all. He actually bought one and had to return it when he couldn't use it. He is a touch typist and had problems when they changed the spacing on the keys before the TouchBar, but nothing like the ones he had with the TouchBar. He uses the esc key to read to him what he has selected on the screen. He can't find the esc key. Since he can't feel it, he doesn't know when he is on it. His vision is bad enough that the minimum size he can see on the screen is expanded 20 times. So imagine a TouchBar that you can't see or feel and that moves what is on it, depending on what application you are in.

    i am very disappointed in Apple, since in the past they were always the best for visually impaired people. In this case they obviously never even thought about the effect on this group of people at all. Just so you know, I prefer to use MacIntosh computers. I was employed at Apple for 12 years as a software engineer. 

     Blackbird
    1) Based on your comments Apple are bunch of insensitive pricks for making the iPhone and iPad, too, since you don't consider any of the Accessibility options they've added to  their touch-based OSes for the visually impaired.

    2) I guess all the effort Apple is spearheading with the USB-iF for adding universal Braille support is just a bunch of bullshit. Or… you're the one that's making shit up.


    3) I guess you also haven't considered that most Macs being sold come with the standard 'fn' keys and that you can use any number of other keyboards with the few Macs that do come with the Touch Bar. But why would an obvious troll actually put any thought into a comment?
    He wasn't trolling, but has some legitimate concern. 

    Come to think about it, you're the one constantly trolling these threads by attacking anyone who's got real concerns with the direction Apple is taking their hardware products. 

    Also, what Apple may or may not be doing/developing for a future product is completely irrelevant for the use case of a current product.
    It is not available for that user till it has been released, and maybe even not then, as the user may have to purchase another product to use the feature. 
    It’s not a legitimate concern because Apple has addressed it across multiple vectors, as Appleawsys does. The fact that you and him ignore these obvious facts means that you two are trolling, especially you after being informed that Apple has all the same accessibility options for Touch Bar that they do for all iOS-based devices on macOS.
    So being informed by a random hack on AI what is available on iOS is also available on the TouchBar somehow makes his concern illegitimate? 
    Maybe he also found using iOS devices equally non-compelling. 

    I know for a fact that Apple product developments value such feedback and I recommend everyone to use Apple's Product feedback page at https://www.apple.com/feedback/, and not listen to trolling when you have a concern or suggestion for product improvement. 
  • Reply 163 of 190
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,680member
    ElCapitan said:
    Soli said:
    ElCapitan said:
    Soli said:
    I am surprised that no one has mentioned the biggest problem with the TouchBar. It is unusable for someone who is visually impaired. I have a friend that has used the MacIntosh since the first one in 1984. He uses all of the accessibility options for a visually impaired person. He cannot see or feel the different keys on the TouchBar. This is the first computer that Apple has made that he cannot use at all. He actually bought one and had to return it when he couldn't use it. He is a touch typist and had problems when they changed the spacing on the keys before the TouchBar, but nothing like the ones he had with the TouchBar. He uses the esc key to read to him what he has selected on the screen. He can't find the esc key. Since he can't feel it, he doesn't know when he is on it. His vision is bad enough that the minimum size he can see on the screen is expanded 20 times. So imagine a TouchBar that you can't see or feel and that moves what is on it, depending on what application you are in.

    i am very disappointed in Apple, since in the past they were always the best for visually impaired people. In this case they obviously never even thought about the effect on this group of people at all. Just so you know, I prefer to use MacIntosh computers. I was employed at Apple for 12 years as a software engineer. 

     Blackbird
    1) Based on your comments Apple are bunch of insensitive pricks for making the iPhone and iPad, too, since you don't consider any of the Accessibility options they've added to  their touch-based OSes for the visually impaired.

    2) I guess all the effort Apple is spearheading with the USB-iF for adding universal Braille support is just a bunch of bullshit. Or… you're the one that's making shit up.


    3) I guess you also haven't considered that most Macs being sold come with the standard 'fn' keys and that you can use any number of other keyboards with the few Macs that do come with the Touch Bar. But why would an obvious troll actually put any thought into a comment?
    He wasn't trolling, but has some legitimate concern. 

    Come to think about it, you're the one constantly trolling these threads by attacking anyone who's got real concerns with the direction Apple is taking their hardware products. 

    Also, what Apple may or may not be doing/developing for a future product is completely irrelevant for the use case of a current product.
    It is not available for that user till it has been released, and maybe even not then, as the user may have to purchase another product to use the feature. 
    It’s not a legitimate concern because Apple has addressed it across multiple vectors, as Appleawsys does. The fact that you and him ignore these obvious facts means that you two are trolling, especially you after being informed that Apple has all the same accessibility options for Touch Bar that they do for all iOS-based devices on macOS.
    So being informed by a random hack on AI what is available on iOS is also available on the TouchBar somehow makes his concern illegitimate? 
    Maybe he also found using iOS devices equally non-compelling. 

    I know for a fact that Apple product developments value such feedback and I recommend everyone to use Apple's Product feedback page at https://www.apple.com/feedback/, and not listen to trolling when you have a concern or suggestion for product improvement. 
    A random hack? It's the fucking Accessibility features built into Apple's OSes and you know it.

    "When we work on making our devices accessible by the blind I don't consider the bloody ROI." — Tim Cook

    edited July 2018
  • Reply 164 of 190
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 193member
    Soli said:
    ElCapitan said:
    Soli said:
    ElCapitan said:
    Soli said:
    I am surprised that no one has mentioned the biggest problem with the TouchBar. It is unusable for someone who is visually impaired. I have a friend that has used the MacIntosh since the first one in 1984. He uses all of the accessibility options for a visually impaired person. He cannot see or feel the different keys on the TouchBar. This is the first computer that Apple has made that he cannot use at all. He actually bought one and had to return it when he couldn't use it. He is a touch typist and had problems when they changed the spacing on the keys before the TouchBar, but nothing like the ones he had with the TouchBar. He uses the esc key to read to him what he has selected on the screen. He can't find the esc key. Since he can't feel it, he doesn't know when he is on it. His vision is bad enough that the minimum size he can see on the screen is expanded 20 times. So imagine a TouchBar that you can't see or feel and that moves what is on it, depending on what application you are in.

    i am very disappointed in Apple, since in the past they were always the best for visually impaired people. In this case they obviously never even thought about the effect on this group of people at all. Just so you know, I prefer to use MacIntosh computers. I was employed at Apple for 12 years as a software engineer. 

     Blackbird
    1) Based on your comments Apple are bunch of insensitive pricks for making the iPhone and iPad, too, since you don't consider any of the Accessibility options they've added to  their touch-based OSes for the visually impaired.

    2) I guess all the effort Apple is spearheading with the USB-iF for adding universal Braille support is just a bunch of bullshit. Or… you're the one that's making shit up.


    3) I guess you also haven't considered that most Macs being sold come with the standard 'fn' keys and that you can use any number of other keyboards with the few Macs that do come with the Touch Bar. But why would an obvious troll actually put any thought into a comment?
    He wasn't trolling, but has some legitimate concern. 

    Come to think about it, you're the one constantly trolling these threads by attacking anyone who's got real concerns with the direction Apple is taking their hardware products. 

    Also, what Apple may or may not be doing/developing for a future product is completely irrelevant for the use case of a current product.
    It is not available for that user till it has been released, and maybe even not then, as the user may have to purchase another product to use the feature. 
    It’s not a legitimate concern because Apple has addressed it across multiple vectors, as Appleawsys does. The fact that you and him ignore these obvious facts means that you two are trolling, especially you after being informed that Apple has all the same accessibility options for Touch Bar that they do for all iOS-based devices on macOS.
    So being informed by a random hack on AI what is available on iOS is also available on the TouchBar somehow makes his concern illegitimate? 
    Maybe he also found using iOS devices equally non-compelling. 

    I know for a fact that Apple product developments value such feedback and I recommend everyone to use Apple's Product feedback page at https://www.apple.com/feedback/, and not listen to trolling when you have a concern or suggestion for product improvement. 
    A random hack? It's the fucking Accessibility features built into Apple's OSes and you know it.

    "When we work on making our devices accessible by the blind I don't consider the bloody ROI." — Tim Cook
    Reading comprehension problem much? The random hack was not a reference to Apple's code...
    edited July 2018 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 165 of 190
    frantisekfrantisek Posts: 401member
    GokhanAppleİnsider said: 2) Siri button is too close to the fingerprint reader, making it very easy to activate by accident (my company uses the fingerprint button for authentication). 

    You can rearrange anything on the Touch Bar to wherever you want. That's part of the point of having it in the first place: customization. 
    Perhaps area where Apple could leverage AI and let it suggest people putting button on touch bar that would mimick their frequent actions.

    Like Siri says: I noticed you often do this....  You could put button on your touch bar that would make it faster. Idealy with Automator action when it consist of more steps. Not sure it is possible.
  • Reply 166 of 190
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 30,840member
    I think the Touch Bar would not have happened under Jobs’ watch. It doesn’t leapfrog what is available from other companies. It’s a timid implementation, not a revolutionary idea.
    mike54
  • Reply 167 of 190
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,556member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Oh, and the PC laptop only has a 4K screen and the battery lasts 4 hours.  
    I like the fact that I can run my Mac on the battery for several hours, but I might be willing to give up some of that time if doing so resulted in my work being done significantly faster. In fact, if we accept the results posted above at face value, I wouldn't NEED as much battery time because the improved operating speed would cut hours off the time required to complete a project! :)


    Yup, it’s always a question of trade-offs. My guess would be that the majority of Apple’s customer would trade the other way. 

  • Reply 168 of 190
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,680member
    I think the Touch Bar would not have happened under Jobs’ watch. It doesn’t leapfrog what is available from other companies. It’s a timid implementation, not a revolutionary idea.
    Your stepping right up to the "If Steve were alive" comments with that post but you haven't crossed it, but more importantly you're forgetting all the market duds that did happen under Jobs.

    I think the hockey puck mouse is up there as one of worst ideas put into production in all of computing. How did that ever get past initial testing when the slightly change in rotation of a perfectly round discus means the mouse pointer doesn't go where you expect it to? Minor, but still issues for that mouse was it's small size for the typical hand and its short USB cable.


    Yet, Apple with Jobs as CEO kept this as a shipping product for 2 years. It was such a problem that a 3rd-part created iCatch that would attach to the mouse so that it would have an ergonomic feel and be useful, but everyone I knew just bought other USB mice, usually from Microsoft (which weirdly were selling quality mice back then).


    I have no such qualms about the Touch Bar, Touch ID, Apple Pay, or the T-series chip running a forked version of watchOS on my MBP. My biggest complaint, by far, is my lower typing speed and more typing errors with the physical, static keys on the keyboard.
    edited July 2018
  • Reply 169 of 190
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,030member
    Soli said:
    1) Based on your comments Apple are bunch of insensitive pricks for making the iPhone and iPad, too, since you don't consider any of the Accessibility options they've added to  their touch-based OSes for the visually impaired.

    2) I guess all the effort Apple is spearheading with the USB-iF for adding universal Braille support is just a bunch of bullshit. Or… you're the one that's making shit up.


    3) I guess you also haven't considered that most Macs being sold come with the standard 'fn' keys and that you can use any number of other keyboards with the few Macs that do come with the Touch Bar. But why would an obvious troll actually put any thought into a comment?
    Or... possibly, that Apple used to think these things through better, but now they are becoming inconsistent???

    wizard69 said:
    Move to Linux!   The transfer can be easier than you might think.
    I get people saying move to Windows... I don't get this one. What do you do for software?
    And, unless things have dramatically improved over the last few years, Windows GUI feels like luxury compared to any Unix GUIs I've used. It's like another order of magnitude away from the Mac (in terms of GUI).

    MacPro said:
    I so well remember having to hold classes to teach people how to use a Mac's mouse back in the day.  My poor training staff had to take a lot of flack.  At least half of most classes at our Apple Store training sessions could not get it, they claimed no ability to coordinate their hand movement with what they wanted to do on screen.  Many argued typing was faster.  Many became frustrated and angry claiming it was ridiculous and was just a gimmick from Apple.
    I'm not sure what follows from that though? Just trust Apple, they are smart? I too took flack back in the day for being an early Mac, Atari, Commodore enthusiast with my mice while the PC people laughed that it was just a toy.

    This doesn't feel like any kind of revolution or game-changer though. It feels like something they slapped in there to be flashy with a bit of utility in certain situations, but on the whole, a downside. I think that could be said about a touch-screen in general, even if ergonomically awkward. But, this is just plain awkward.

    Aside from a few special applications people have been mentioning, I think it is primarily a good way to introduce options to new users coming from iDevices. When I look at stuff like Stacks or QuickLook editing, same thing. Those aren't pro things... pros aren't going to use them. They are things to make the Mac desktop a bit more friendly and easy to pick up for iPhone/iPad users.

    Soli said:
    His "opinion" is germane in demonstrating that the same sentiment has been said about Apple for 4 decades now despite Apple continually creating products and features that armchair experts say no one wanted, no one needs, and that are clear signs that the company is ushering in its impending doom. And, yet, they continue to thrive despite not building the Homer Car many here expect from Apple.
    What is important are the reasons. Tech pundits have often been crazy-wrong when it comes to Apple, but because they were on the outside looking in. They didn't actually follow Apple closely enough to understand what they were saying. And, I'd argue, Apple has also changed since then, especially recently (and especially in regard to not holding to many of their UI principals, or being as consistent).

    Unlike Dvorak, I embraced the mouse, the iPhone, the iPad, etc. I'm not embracing this one because it just doesn't make sense from a UI/ergonomics standpoint. Is it possible that Apple makes a bad move that becomes popular due to their current status? I suppose so. But, that wouldn't make it a good move, just a popular one.

    tallest skil said:
    For industry-specific applications, of course you’d need Windows or OS X. Though I’ve heard WINE is getting pretty good…
    There's always GIMP. (jk... people seriously recommend that kind of stuff, though.)

    As much as I love Unix for some things, it kind of seems like running Windows apps on top of Unix would almost be a worst of worlds all around. Maybe I'm missing something? I think I'd much rather just fight with a Hackintosh until I can't take it any more and then just give in to Windows.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 170 of 190
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,030member
    KITA said:
    Instead of putting R&D towards making the Touch Bar fit in the chassis, they could have spent the time fitting better hardware. It's directly related. The Touch Bar is a waste. It adds to Apple's cost, which adds to the consumer's cost. Nothing about that is asinine, only your attempts to defend his comment.
    Fair point to me. If you don't like the TouchBar, Apple spent considerable time/money making the machine worse. While maybe a better processor wasn't available at the time, there are certainly other improvements they could have made with the same time/money.

    Rayz2016 said:
    Oh, and the PC laptop only has a 4K screen and the battery lasts 4 hours.  
    Someone doing that kind of work might be OK with that.

    I think the point might be that for a pro laptop line, at least one model should be relatively powerful. No one is saying the entire laptop lineup needs to look like that. If Apple just doesn't want to compete in pro laptops, then maybe just remove the pro label.

    Rayz2016 said:
    k2kw said:
    And that is why we are getting Marzipan.  Apple has realiz4d that supporting two main operating systems (besides tvOS and watchOS) is too much work and need to unify them.
    You have no idea what Marzipan is. 
    Won't that largely depend on how it gets used? The potential is there for a 'best of both worlds' type situation, I suppose. But, if we just get a horde of ported iOS garbage on the Mac, all it will do is increase the number apps in the store (kind of like the old M$ argument about how much more software they had than we Mac users).

    k2kw said:
    I'm happily looking forward to the next 5 years when I expect the introduction of A series laptops running a macOS that looks and feels more and more like iOS.
    I'm not sure I am. I'd like to see performance advancements, but Apple will hit the same wall as Intel eventually.
    But, on the software side, most iOS apps and development aren't really that great. It scares me a bit that we might get a deluge of iOS developers dumping the kind of stuff I see in the iOS app store onto the Mac.

    dewme said:
    ... Apple could fix part of the problem by using hardware switches with individual built-in displays. If every hardware function key had its own display the function name could change dynamically right on the hardware key. But this would still be a heads-down display. ...
    Excellent post! I wanted to highlight the above line of it, though, as I was thinking the same thing. The ingenious compromise would have been OLED key-covers that could dynamically change, yet retaining the physical keys. As you say, you still have to look down to see what they say, but that is more a learning thing as eventually you could just hit them w/o looking.
  • Reply 171 of 190
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,030member
    Soli said:
    "When we work on making our devices accessible by the blind I don't consider the bloody ROI." — Tim Cook
    But, if that pie-chart slice is too small of a market segment... it's suddenly all about that?

    Rayz2016 said:
    Yup, it’s always a question of trade-offs. My guess would be that the majority of Apple’s customer would trade the other way. 
    Are the majority of Apple's customers pro users?

    Soli said:
    I think the hockey puck mouse is up there as one of worst ideas put into production in all of computing. How did that ever get past initial testing when the slightly change in rotation of a perfectly round discus means the mouse pointer doesn't go where you expect it to? Minor, but still issues for that mouse was it's small size for the typical hand and its short USB cable.
    Oh yeah, that was a horrible design. The scary thing was I actually ran into people using them! :)
    For the rest of us, they filled bins and an alternate mouse purchase along with the computer was standard.

    I don't get how black and white these forums have to be about this stuff. At least for me, my argument has never been that Apple did everything right and now suddenly is doing everything wrong. However, I see what I feel has been relatively low level shift in priorities.... and that is what has me worried. And, I think it then is reflected in some of the more recent (IMO) poor decisions.
  • Reply 172 of 190
    darkpawdarkpaw Posts: 125member
    darkpaw said:
    The MBP with a Touch Bar comes with Touch ID. They are not currently separate, so it's absolutely fine for me to claim it's part of it. It's right next to it and has the same dimensions. It's designed to look like a part of it. The Touch Bar points to it when you need to use Touch ID.
    They absolutely ARE separate. One is a touch sensitive rectangular screen, the other is a physical switch with a fingerprint reader. They're not even physically attached to each other. Where the two controls are physically situated and what they look like is irrelevant.

    You said you like the Touch Bar because you like Touch ID. I'm saying the two have nothing to do with each other, and you could have Touch ID without needing the Touch Bar. You could punch holes in the Touch Bar with an ice pick and still have all the advantages of Touch ID because it's a separate control.

    The utility of the Touch Bar is not tied to the existence of Touch ID. Either may exist without the other.
    It IS in the current systems available, which is what I pointed out. There is no Mac with just Touch ID and no Touch Bar.
  • Reply 173 of 190
    GG1GG1 Posts: 234member
    dewme said:
    Apple could fix part of the problem by using hardware switches with individual built-in displays. If every hardware function key had its own display the function name could change dynamically right on the hardware key.
    There's someone that has built and sold such a device. His latest iteration is here: https://store.artlebedev.com/electronics/optimus-popularis/

    It's not full keyboard (that item is sold out), but each key has an OLED underneath it for full image customization. It costs USD$1500.

    Correction: this one has an LCD underneath it, so you are viewing the stationary LCD image through the clear keycaps. The original full keyboard had OLEDs.
    edited July 2018
  • Reply 174 of 190
    loquiturloquitur Posts: 112member
    dewme said:

    [....]

    Except for ... the Escape key.

    The Escape key is a special case. The fact that it happens to be on the same row as the function keys makes its inclusion in the Touch Bar unfortunate. In fact, the Escape key should be treated as a special key and perhaps even be elevated  in status and prominence to double wide treatment like the Return key, even if doing so limits the number of top row function keys to ten (10). I'm totally in favor of promoting the the Escape key to double wide status. That would be a big deal for me while the Touch Bar is still a little deal thing for me.
    Implementing this is as simple as replacing the vestigial caps lock key, which very few use except by accident.
    dewme
  • Reply 175 of 190
    lorin schultzlorin schultz Posts: 2,640member
    darkpaw said:
    darkpaw said:
    The MBP with a Touch Bar comes with Touch ID. They are not currently separate, so it's absolutely fine for me to claim it's part of it. It's right next to it and has the same dimensions. It's designed to look like a part of it. The Touch Bar points to it when you need to use Touch ID.
    They absolutely ARE separate. One is a touch sensitive rectangular screen, the other is a physical switch with a fingerprint reader. They're not even physically attached to each other. Where the two controls are physically situated and what they look like is irrelevant.

    You said you like the Touch Bar because you like Touch ID. I'm saying the two have nothing to do with each other, and you could have Touch ID without needing the Touch Bar. You could punch holes in the Touch Bar with an ice pick and still have all the advantages of Touch ID because it's a separate control.

    The utility of the Touch Bar is not tied to the existence of Touch ID. Either may exist without the other.
    It IS in the current systems available, which is what I pointed out. There is no Mac with just Touch ID and no Touch Bar.
    That's irrelevant to the point you made, though. You can't buy a Touch Bar Mac without an SSD either; would you say you like the Touch Bar because SSD is faster than a hard drive?

    The benefits of Touch ID are no more valid arguments in support of the existence of the Touch Bar than the benefits of SSD, because neither is tied to the existence of the Touch Bar. If objectors got their way and persuaded Apple to ditch the Touch Bar, it would not mean that you'd lose Touch ID any more than it would mean you'd lose SSD.
    cgWerks
  • Reply 176 of 190
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 2,545member
    k2kw said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    k2kw said:

    It sounded like a good idea to solve two problems.   But, it just didn't work in practice.

    Time to move on.   Nothing to see here folks!
    And that is why we are getting Marzipan.  Apple has realiz4d that supporting two main operating systems (besides tvOS and watchOS) is too much work and need to unify them.
    You have no idea what Marzipan is. 

    🤦🏾‍♂️
    I'm happily looking forward to the next 5 years when I expect the introduction of A series laptops running a macOS that looks and feels more and more like iOS.
    That’s not happening. Why would switching macOS to ARM have anything to do with how it “looks and feels”?
  • Reply 177 of 190
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,030member
    loquitur said:
    Implementing this is as simple as replacing the vestigial caps lock key, which very few use except by accident.
    Location is important, too. I'd want it to retain the upper-left spot. It drives me even more nuts that on the TouchBar, it's offset so far to the right.

    lorin schultz said:
    The benefits of Touch ID are no more valid arguments in support of the existence of the Touch Bar than the benefits of SSD, because neither is tied to the existence of the Touch Bar. If objectors got their way and persuaded Apple to ditch the Touch Bar, it would not mean that you'd lose Touch ID any more than it would mean you'd lose SSD.
    It would present an aesthetic design challenge, though... which is why I would guess it appears to be a whole (such that people seem to fail to recognize the TouchID is independent).

    k2kw said:
    I'm happily looking forward to the next 5 years when I expect the introduction of A series laptops running a macOS that looks and feels more and more like iOS.
    That’s not happening. Why would switching macOS to ARM have anything to do with how it “looks and feels”?
    Because a lot of iOS developers are clueless about the UI design practices Apple so strongly suggested for so long. And, it seems Apple's internal people somewhat are as well. But, you have a point that this isn't so necessarily tied to ARM... it will happen anyway.
  • Reply 178 of 190
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 441member
    cgWerks said:

    wizard69 said:
    Move to Linux!   The transfer can be easier than you might think.
    I get people saying move to Windows... I don't get this one. What do you do for software?
    And, unless things have dramatically improved over the last few years, Windows GUI feels like luxury compared to any Unix GUIs I've used. It's like another order of magnitude away from the Mac (in terms of GUI).

    tallest skil said:
    For industry-specific applications, of course you’d need Windows or OS X. Though I’ve heard WINE is getting pretty good…
    There's always GIMP. (jk... people seriously recommend that kind of stuff, though.)

    As much as I love Unix for some things, it kind of seems like running Windows apps on top of Unix would almost be a worst of worlds all around. Maybe I'm missing something? I think I'd much rather just fight with a Hackintosh until I can't take it any more and then just give in to Windows.
    Because there are people simply didn't like Windows, it's philosophy and that "easy-to-use" UI.  They couldn't even get the fonts correct.

    How's Wine "almost worst of the worlds all around?"  The only downside I can think of is making your system just as insecure as an Windows environment when you tried to run something, but that's it.
    cgWerks said:
    KITA said:
    Instead of putting R&D towards making the Touch Bar fit in the chassis, they could have spent the time fitting better hardware. It's directly related. The Touch Bar is a waste. It adds to Apple's cost, which adds to the consumer's cost. Nothing about that is asinine, only your attempts to defend his comment.
    Fair point to me. If you don't like the TouchBar, Apple spent considerable time/money making the machine worse. While maybe a better processor wasn't available at the time, there are certainly other improvements they could have made with the same time/money.
    Begging a GTX1080 inside MacBooks won't solve anything, he just pretend it sounds like a good idea.  But if Tim said yes, I'm sure they can drop couple hundred dollars on their products, no reason to sold their core m laptop $1299.
    cgWerks said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Oh, and the PC laptop only has a 4K screen and the battery lasts 4 hours.  
    Someone doing that kind of work might be OK with that.

    I think the point might be that for a pro laptop line, at least one model should be relatively powerful. No one is saying the entire laptop lineup needs to look like that. If Apple just doesn't want to compete in pro laptops, then maybe just remove the pro label.
    The reason for the major OEM to choose 4K is because standard resolutions costs less to produce.  Even is a sharper display, it only makes a difference when you're using it from 16 to 12 inches.  Other than that, it just wastes power.
    cgWerks said:
    k2kw said:
    I'm happily looking forward to the next 5 years when I expect the introduction of A series laptops running a macOS that looks and feels more and more like iOS.
    I'm not sure I am. I'd like to see performance advancements, but Apple will hit the same wall as Intel eventually.
    But, on the software side, most iOS apps and development aren't really that great. It scares me a bit that we might get a deluge of iOS developers dumping the kind of stuff I see in the iOS app store onto the Mac.
    It's more about performance.  Intel hits the wall two times recently with both Haswell and Coffee Lake, both of them are power hogs that caused most laptop to throttle, and lasts more than one generation.  At least with their own silicon, the power consumption can be well controlled.
  • Reply 179 of 190
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 441member
    cgWerks said:
    Are the majority of Apple's customers pro users?
    That idea would put someone in a loop forever: "I didn't like the products, but the majority likes it.  Since I'm a pro user but majority aren't, therefore it's definitely not pro".  With that thought, you can against every products that went popular.
    fastasleep
  • Reply 180 of 190
    anomeanome Posts: 1,258member
    darkpaw said:
    darkpaw said:
    The MBP with a Touch Bar comes with Touch ID. They are not currently separate, so it's absolutely fine for me to claim it's part of it. It's right next to it and has the same dimensions. It's designed to look like a part of it. The Touch Bar points to it when you need to use Touch ID.
    They absolutely ARE separate. One is a touch sensitive rectangular screen, the other is a physical switch with a fingerprint reader. They're not even physically attached to each other. Where the two controls are physically situated and what they look like is irrelevant.

    You said you like the Touch Bar because you like Touch ID. I'm saying the two have nothing to do with each other, and you could have Touch ID without needing the Touch Bar. You could punch holes in the Touch Bar with an ice pick and still have all the advantages of Touch ID because it's a separate control.

    The utility of the Touch Bar is not tied to the existence of Touch ID. Either may exist without the other.
    It IS in the current systems available, which is what I pointed out. There is no Mac with just Touch ID and no Touch Bar.

    Actually, as I understand it (and I may understand it wrong), they aren't separate components. The Touch Bar is essentially a side benefit of having the T1 chip for TouchID. The story is that the Touch Bar was something they developed to use excess processing capacity from the T1 which was included for Touch ID and the Secure Enclave. Along the lines of "If we already have that there, we can do this cool thing, too!"

    Of course, the iMac Pro has the T2 chip for the Secure Enclave etc, but neither TouchID nor a Touch Bar. I'm not sure what this means for the future of the Touch Bar, but I suspect they already have the T3 with FaceID ready to go in a Mac release soon. Look for the next revs to have notches in the screens.

    Personally, I like the idea of the Touch Bar, but I don't really use it. It is handy to scrub through Pre-roll ads on YouTube, but other than that it really isn't being exploited to its full potential. Of course, I didn't really use the Function Keys either, except for things that are just as easily done with the Touch Bar (more so, in some ways).

    I do agree that a physical Escape key would be handy, but I haven't found it too much of a nuisance.

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