melgross said: [...] I’m not impressed by the negative people out there, because it’s just a bunch of small minds, that can’t get over the fact that things change, and that if they don’t change too, they will be left behind. To them, new things are things to be afraid of, and so they denigrate them.
while the Touch Bar isn’t nearly as dramatic a change as MacOS was, it’s still a change that some people don’t want to use, or get used to.
The problem isn't developing a new mindset that accommodates a new method of interaction. Rather, it's a question of whether THIS particular method offers enough reason to bother. A decade ago Apple's multi-touch trackpad also required learning new ways of doing things, but it was worth it because the new ways enhanced productivity. I'm not sure the Touch Bar does.
Personally I'm indifferent towards it. I don't object to it being there, but I wouldn't care if it went away. At this point it just seems like an awful lot of feathers but not much chicken. Maybe it will get better, but it seems like wasting time and energy on an half-solution when a better approach already exists.
There are many people who really like the Touchbar. You don’t. I get that. But because you don’t, you’re fishing for some reason to rationalize that feeling. I get that too. The reality is that the touchbar is far more versatile than fixed keys. I have some very expensive test equipment, and everything I bought 15 years ago and newer, has the equivalent of a touchbar. Why? Because it’s far more useful that fixed keys. It changes contextually, which is a major advantage. So you, and others don’t like it. Fine. But your statement about it not being useful enough simply isn’t true.
Points taken and being given thoughtful consideration.
Just for the record, I don't dislike the Touch Bar. I recognize and appreciate the value of contextual controls. I was excited about the Touch Bar when it was announced. That excitement waned not out of resistance to using it, but after a year-and-a-half of living with it and still not finding many compelling reasons for its existence. A few cute parlour tricks, but not much in the way of genuine productivity enhancement. That's why I said I'm indifferent. I'm not saying I think Apple should remove it, just that I don't really care one way or the other.
In other settings, like the processing gear I use or the test equipment you mentioned, contextual controls usually work very well, but in those cases the controls are placed where the user is already looking. They also exist in isolation, with no alternative input methods that might be quicker and easier. In the case of the Mac, it's usually easier to use a keyboard shortcut or pointer than to make a selection on the Touch Bar, and in both cases a touch screen would be even better.
The controversy shouldn't be necessary. The 13" MBP gives users an option. The 15" doesn't - but it could.
On top of that, the owners of late 2016 TB haven't really seen an effective return on the TB cost. The fact that developers haven't really picked up on it is of little consolation to those users who put big money down on a machine nearly two years ago. It's ok to be a willing early adopter by choice but after waiting for the refresh, those who wanted a 'new' 15" MBP found themselves out of luck. It was the TB or a 2015 model. Now, that option has gone.
Also, we mustn't forget that not all technologies stick around for long or if they do, they can cause headaches down the line (ADC comes to mind).
I'm still not convinced TB will take off anyway. I'm not anti TB but would rather not have to pay for something that I can easily live without.
I doubt it adds much to the overall cost of the machine since it's piggybacked on to the USB-C port. Thunderbolt-3 is also royalty free, so it's the manufacturing costs.
I don't honestly think most people understand all the things that TB-3 does. It's nothing like USB, Firewire, aDC or whatever, because it supports multiple protocols.
I have a TB-1 2013 MBP, I bought a TB-2 dongle which now let's me connect to any TB-3 device and it's given my 2013 MBP a new life. Instead of begin limited to the 5gbps USB-A ports, I now have access to 20gbps (the TB-1 max) over a single port. Everything I own is connected through that one cable to include a several RAIDs, monitor, ethernet and a card reader.
And guess what, my 2011 13" MBP also has a TB-1 port! Yes, 2011 with it's lonely 800mbps Firewire port and 480mbps USB-A. An old machine, new again!
Technology Features
Thunderbolt™, USB, DisplayPort, and power on USB-C
USB-C connector and cables (small, reversible)
40 Gbps Thunderbolt™ 3 – double the speed of Thunderbolt 2
Bi-directional, dual-protocol (PCI Express and DisplayPort)
4 lanes of PCI Express Gen 3
8 lanes of DisplayPort 1.2 (HBR2 and MST)
Supports two 4K displays (4096 x 2160 30bpp @ 60 Hz)
USB 3.1 (10 Gbps) – compatible with existing USB devices and cables
DisplayPort 1.2 – compatible with existing DisplayPort displays, devices, and cables
Connect DVI, HDMI, and VGA displays via adapters
Power (based on USB power delivery)
Up to 100W system charging
15W to bus-powered devices
Thunderbolt™ Networking
10Gb Ethernet connection between computers
Daisy chaining (up to six devices)
Lowest latency for PCI Express audio recording
The TB I was referring to was TouchBar, although I'm not anti Thunderbolt either.
Avon,
There isn't anyone except yourself here that is using TB in the context of the Touch Bar; too easy to confuse with TB-2 and TB-3 Thunderbolt in conversations. I'd back away from that. As you can see above, it is confusing.
Exactly
TB = Thunderbolt
Well, yes. It's unfortunate that we have three TBs:
TB = TeraByte TB = ThunderBolt TB = TouchBar
Technically we have four since TB can refer to 2^40 or 1000^4, which is why we should be using the very clear terminology Terebyte/TB (1000^4) or the similar but distinct measurement of Tebibyte/TiB (2^40).
We don't see a lot of it now because only storage capacities are usually in that range at this point, and those are marketed with the1000^4 * n capacity. Apple even made macOS show 1000^4 capacities many years ago as capacities grow and the disparity became more obvious and therefore confusing, but iTunes and Terminal will still list 2^40, I think.
Oddly, the most consumer friendly device from Apple still uses 2^n for measuring capacity in the OS. We're not at TB capacity yet, but the iPad Pros are at 512 GB so I'd expect the next bump in capacity will be to 1 TB. Will iOS make that change to match macOS? Will Apple acknowledge the difference in terms? If they do, I don't think it will still only be hardcore tech sites using it to help remove confusion of a measurement.
melgross said: [...] I’m not impressed by the negative people out there, because it’s just a bunch of small minds, that can’t get over the fact that things change, and that if they don’t change too, they will be left behind. To them, new things are things to be afraid of, and so they denigrate them.
while the Touch Bar isn’t nearly as dramatic a change as MacOS was, it’s still a change that some people don’t want to use, or get used to.
The problem isn't developing a new mindset that accommodates a new method of interaction. Rather, it's a question of whether THIS particular method offers enough reason to bother. A decade ago Apple's multi-touch trackpad also required learning new ways of doing things, but it was worth it because the new ways enhanced productivity. I'm not sure the Touch Bar does.
Personally I'm indifferent towards it. I don't object to it being there, but I wouldn't care if it went away. At this point it just seems like an awful lot of feathers but not much chicken. Maybe it will get better, but it seems like wasting time and energy on an half-solution when a better approach already exists.
There are many people who really like the Touchbar. You don’t. I get that. But because you don’t, you’re fishing for some reason to rationalize that feeling. I get that too. The reality is that the touchbar is far more versatile than fixed keys. I have some very expensive test equipment, and everything I bought 15 years ago and newer, has the equivalent of a touchbar. Why? Because it’s far more useful that fixed keys. It changes contextually, which is a major advantage. So you, and others don’t like it. Fine. But your statement about it not being useful enough simply isn’t true.
Points taken and being given thoughtful consideration.
Just for the record, I don't dislike the Touch Bar. I recognize and appreciate the value of contextual controls. I was excited about the Touch Bar when it was announced. That excitement waned not out of resistance to using it, but after a year-and-a-half of living with it and still not finding many compelling reasons for its existence. A few cute parlour tricks, but not much in the way of genuine productivity enhancement. That's why I said I'm indifferent. I'm not saying I think Apple should remove it, just that I don't really care one way or the other.
In other settings, like the processing gear I use or the test equipment you mentioned, contextual controls usually work very well, but in those cases the controls are placed where the user is already looking. They also exist in isolation, with no alternative input methods that might be quicker and easier. In the case of the Mac, it's usually easier to use a keyboard shortcut or pointer than to make a selection on the Touch Bar, and in both cases a touch screen would be even better.
Overall I like it, but I do see a lot of potential room for improvement in both the HW and SW, and I can see how a lack of physical feedback can be problematic when blindly touching the Bar.
I wonder if segmenting the Bar into smaller OLED/micro-LED segments so that, say, every 3 key widths was OLED display you'd have edges you could find, but you could also make it a physical button, too, so that accidental touches can disabled. Speaking of when I just tried to click Quote on your comment but the mouse point kept disappearing on my Mac and nothing would happen when I tapped the Track Bar until I realized I had a finger slightly touching the virtual ESC key on my Control Strip. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I hesitate to say that we should just make every key LED-based because of both cost and need. Eventually that won't be price prohibitive, but if there are still a lot of "Pro" users that can't find a way to make the Touch Bar useful for their workflow then I wonder how they'll be able to do it for entire keyboard.
Or Apple, could go with just a handful of keyboard keys being LED-based buttons. For example, Apple brings back the old ESC key as a basic key on the left, and the makes the power key a basic key on the right (or with Touch ID, if Face ID is here). Then all the keys inside are back to their regular 12 keys using LED-based displays (or maybe 6 double keys). Apple could even make the Space Bar an LED-based display so that it can be a slider as needed; which seems to be a better location for that anyway.
melgross said: [...] I’m not impressed by the negative people out there, because it’s just a bunch of small minds, that can’t get over the fact that things change, and that if they don’t change too, they will be left behind. To them, new things are things to be afraid of, and so they denigrate them.
while the Touch Bar isn’t nearly as dramatic a change as MacOS was, it’s still a change that some people don’t want to use, or get used to.
The problem isn't developing a new mindset that accommodates a new method of interaction. Rather, it's a question of whether THIS particular method offers enough reason to bother. A decade ago Apple's multi-touch trackpad also required learning new ways of doing things, but it was worth it because the new ways enhanced productivity. I'm not sure the Touch Bar does.
Personally I'm indifferent towards it. I don't object to it being there, but I wouldn't care if it went away. At this point it just seems like an awful lot of feathers but not much chicken. Maybe it will get better, but it seems like wasting time and energy on an half-solution when a better approach already exists.
There are many people who really like the Touchbar. You don’t. I get that. But because you don’t, you’re fishing for some reason to rationalize that feeling. I get that too. The reality is that the touchbar is far more versatile than fixed keys. I have some very expensive test equipment, and everything I bought 15 years ago and newer, has the equivalent of a touchbar. Why? Because it’s far more useful that fixed keys. It changes contextually, which is a major advantage. So you, and others don’t like it. Fine. But your statement about it not being useful enough simply isn’t true.
Points taken and being given thoughtful consideration.
Just for the record, I don't dislike the Touch Bar. I recognize and appreciate the value of contextual controls. I was excited about the Touch Bar when it was announced. That excitement waned not out of resistance to using it, but after a year-and-a-half of living with it and still not finding many compelling reasons for its existence. A few cute parlour tricks, but not much in the way of genuine productivity enhancement. That's why I said I'm indifferent. I'm not saying I think Apple should remove it, just that I don't really care one way or the other.
In other settings, like the processing gear I use or the test equipment you mentioned, contextual controls usually work very well, but in those cases the controls are placed where the user is already looking. They also exist in isolation, with no alternative input methods that might be quicker and easier. In the case of the Mac, it's usually easier to use a keyboard shortcut or pointer than to make a selection on the Touch Bar, and in both cases a touch screen would be even better.
Well, unlike some of my oscilloscopes, where the screen is on the front of the device, and ranges from about 5” to 10” diagonal, you can’t put these keys right under (or on the side of) the screen. Do you want to use any keys on the vertical surface of the screen? No, I didn’t think so. With many of the uses, you don’t need to look at the screen, or the Touchbar, depending on the app, and the function. You get used to it. If you don’t want to get used to it, well, that’s a different matter.
Where’s the “no one needs 32GB of RAM” crowd? Clearly Apple thinks the customers need it...........
The market demanded it, Apple listened.
Edit: Nevermind, they are already downplaying the fact they were wrong.
I don’t recall anybody making that argument — I know I certainly didn’t.
The requirement for 32GB in a mobile machine is definitely a very small niche, and it’s good to see it addressed.
Where hell froze over as far as I’m concerned, is that they pulled the emergency brake on Intel’s train of delays and implemented non-LP DDR4. That, I did not expect to happen.
melgross said: [...] I’m not impressed by the negative people out there, because it’s just a bunch of small minds, that can’t get over the fact that things change, and that if they don’t change too, they will be left behind. To them, new things are things to be afraid of, and so they denigrate them.
while the Touch Bar isn’t nearly as dramatic a change as MacOS was, it’s still a change that some people don’t want to use, or get used to.
The problem isn't developing a new mindset that accommodates a new method of interaction. Rather, it's a question of whether THIS particular method offers enough reason to bother. A decade ago Apple's multi-touch trackpad also required learning new ways of doing things, but it was worth it because the new ways enhanced productivity. I'm not sure the Touch Bar does.
Personally I'm indifferent towards it. I don't object to it being there, but I wouldn't care if it went away. At this point it just seems like an awful lot of feathers but not much chicken. Maybe it will get better, but it seems like wasting time and energy on an half-solution when a better approach already exists.
There are many people who really like the Touchbar. You don’t. I get that. But because you don’t, you’re fishing for some reason to rationalize that feeling. I get that too. The reality is that the touchbar is far more versatile than fixed keys. I have some very expensive test equipment, and everything I bought 15 years ago and newer, has the equivalent of a touchbar. Why? Because it’s far more useful that fixed keys. It changes contextually, which is a major advantage. So you, and others don’t like it. Fine. But your statement about it not being useful enough simply isn’t true.
Points taken and being given thoughtful consideration.
Just for the record, I don't dislike the Touch Bar. I recognize and appreciate the value of contextual controls. I was excited about the Touch Bar when it was announced. That excitement waned not out of resistance to using it, but after a year-and-a-half of living with it and still not finding many compelling reasons for its existence. A few cute parlour tricks, but not much in the way of genuine productivity enhancement. That's why I said I'm indifferent. I'm not saying I think Apple should remove it, just that I don't really care one way or the other.
In other settings, like the processing gear I use or the test equipment you mentioned, contextual controls usually work very well, but in those cases the controls are placed where the user is already looking. They also exist in isolation, with no alternative input methods that might be quicker and easier. In the case of the Mac, it's usually easier to use a keyboard shortcut or pointer than to make a selection on the Touch Bar, and in both cases a touch screen would be even better.
Overall I like it, but I do see a lot of potential room for improvement in both the HW and SW, and I can see how a lack of physical feedback can be problematic when blindly touching the Bar.
I wonder if segmenting the Bar into smaller OLED/micro-LED segments so that, say, every 3 key widths was OLED display you'd have edges you could find, but you could also make it a physical button, too, so that accidental touches can disabled. Speaking of when I just tried to click Quote on your comment but the mouse point kept disappearing on my Mac and nothing would happen when I tapped the Track Bar until I realized I had a finger slightly touching the virtual ESC key on my Control Strip. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I hesitate to say that we should just make every key LED-based because of both cost and need. Eventually that won't be price prohibitive, but if there are still a lot of "Pro" users that can't find a way to make the Touch Bar useful for their workflow then I wonder how they'll be able to do it for entire keyboard.
Or Apple, could go with just a handful of keyboard keys being LED-based buttons. For example, Apple brings back the old ESC key as a basic key on the left, and the makes the power key a basic key on the right (or with Touch ID, if Face ID is here). Then all the keys inside are back to their regular 12 keys using LED-based displays (or maybe 6 double keys). Apple could even make the Space Bar an LED-based display so that it can be a slider as needed; which seems to be a better location for that anyway.
I like the idea of OLED keys including the spacebar, but we just got through another rev of the keyboard, so I'm fine waiting for the technology to catch up before Apple attempts individual keys. There was a key board out of Russia that had LED's for each key, but I don't think it was successful in the market; too complex, too costly. There is lots of interest in a OLED Touch Pad, and I'm sure that would be something that will see adoption.
For the Touch Bar, haptics and a few years of evolution would seem to be the path to widespread adoption.
Where’s the “no one needs 32GB of RAM” crowd? Clearly Apple thinks the customers need it...........
The market demanded it, Apple listened.
Edit: Nevermind, they are already downplaying the fact they were wrong.
I don’t recall anybody making that argument — I know I certainly didn’t.
The requirement for 32GB in a mobile machine is definitely a very small niche, and it’s good to see it addressed.
Where hell froze over as far as I’m concerned, is that they pulled the emergency brake on Intel’s train of delays and implemented non-LP DDR4. That, I did not expect to happen.
1) There are surely "Pros" in an even smaller nitch that could use 64 GiB in a laptop. There are many on the market with some very hefty price tags that make the maxed out 15" MBP look like the deal of the century.
2) I think Intel pulled their own emergency brake 5x(?) now and Apple got off. I also wonder if there's something else we aren't yet privy to about Intel's future plans since these chips that were suppose to launch in 2017 are now moved back to 2019. Could there be yet another year (or more) or pushbacks from Apple that forced their hand with this unprecedented move?
One thing that we've seen since the MBA's existence helping creating the wonder future of the unibody MBP line is the lines got blurred a bit for many buyers so size had to be the only differential option. Se saw the 13" MacBook die off for years before eventually being reborn a 12" version, which, like the MBA had done previously, led to great changes in the new MBPs.
I wonder if we could see the MBA lie get reborn, too, using a lot of the features of the 12" MacBook, but instead of using Intel's chips which use a lot of power, they will use Apple silicon. Their CPU, their GPU, their LP RAM, etc. all on an SoC that was designed from the ground up to run macOS (or a macOS-like system). This also means a much smaller and lighter design and/or longer running battery, and even better security over Spectre and Meltdown, I assume. Apple using more power-hungry RAM and having to increase the battery capacity dramatically to get the same number of hours ultimately helps to show that Intel is a dinosaur.
What a stupid thing Apple did. My heart almost stop when I read the function key Macbook Pro was not updated... Are you in sain ??? You were suppose to have completely remove the mistake made in past of implementing useless touch strip.
It’s insane and it’s called a Touch Bar. Learn how to spell.
What's a difference ? touch bar or strip or stupid OLED strip or whatever is called !!! To me and millions Macbook Pro users, it is useless. I rather have cheaper or other upgrade than touch bar.
No it is not a stupid OLED strip. It is a complete subsystem including Touch ID, Apple Pay, T2 chip, the Facetime camera... A stupid PC laptop’s camera may be remotely hacked and seized, Facetime camera not, because it is securely operated by the T2 chip.
The main point he was trying to get across was that it would be nice to have an option without the considerable added expense those elements carry. For the 15" model you will get them whether you need them or not and now, even the 2015 options have been retired.
I think this update is a 'Yikes' type machine with some newer elements from the true future model brought forward (like the keyboard).
I remember very well the reaction to the first Mac 128. There was outrage in the PC DOS community. It took until Windows 3.0, and then, soon after, for the network version 3.1, before much of that outrage subsided. Nothing that Apple did was considered to be good.
well, I see the same thing here every time a new interface comes out. I’m not impressed by the negative people out there, because it’s just a bunch of small minds, that can’t get over the fact that things change, and that if they don’t change too, they will be left behind. To them, new things are things to be afraid of, and so they denigrate them.
while the Touch Bar isn’t nearly as dramatic a change as MacOS was, it’s still a change that some people don’t want to use, or get used to. Like everything new in this area, it will take time for most developers to learn how to use it well. It will take some users time too. Apple will improve it over the years, and has already broadened the use model over what it was at first, which is the way Apple always does things.
in a few years, all the controversy will have died down, and a few years later, most people won’t even be aware that there was a controversy. That’s history repeating itself.
The controversy shouldn't be necessary. The 13" MBP gives users an option. The 15" doesn't - but it could.
On top of that, the owners of late 2016 TB haven't really seen an effective return on the TB cost. The fact that developers haven't really picked up on it is of little consolation to those users who put big money down on a machine nearly two years ago. It's ok to be a willing early adopter by choice but after waiting for the refresh, those who wanted a 'new' 15" MBP found themselves out of luck. It was the TB or a 2015 model. Now, that option has gone.
Also, we mustn't forget that not all technologies stick around for long or if they do, they can cause headaches down the line (ADC comes to mind).
I'm still not convinced TB will take off anyway. I'm not anti TB but would rather not have to pay for something that I can easily live without.
A lot of developers have picked up on it. But it takes years to get fully utilized.
Lol, I've been busy and only just looked in on the forums and it's expected that the folks complaining before are still complaining today despite getting what they wanted (32 GB).
As far as the TB goes, I like it but to make it more useful I need an external keyboard with at TB...I would be disappointed to lose touchID if the authentication wouldn't work but I've found the TB handy for the apps that support it that I would prefer a keyboard with a TB minus touchID than not to have the option.
Since I am the owner of a 2016 TB I'm far more qualified to provide an opinion on the return of the TB over someone who hasn't bought a Mac in a decade.
Agreed on the Touchbar.
I’d like to see the external keyboard with the Touchbar added. Very useful with BetterTouchTool and the latest IntelliJ toolset.
The complaining is no surprise at all because what these folk really want is a Windows machine with an Apple logo on it.
right before Jobs came back to Apple, he was asked about what he would do if he was running Apple again. His answer? “I would milk the Mac for all it was worth, then I’d go on to the next big thing.”
I know what he said. They’re now milking it without a “next thing” in place. No, iOS can’t replace a computer. We’re nearly a decade away from that being the case, and it will never be able to replace screen sizes.
Your mistake is in thinking that Jobs cared whether iOS replaces your Desktop. He made it very clear that for those who need trucks, the Desktop would remain. But as we do know, already 75% of consumer computing is being done on smartphones and tablets.
as great example is the new Adobe initiative of first putting Photoshop on the iPad, then Illustrator, and eventually, the entire CC Suite. Microsoft already has the full Office suite on iOS. Others are following. And what was the reason Adobe gave for this? They said it was because more and more of their professional users were moving to iPads from notebooks, and DEMANDED that Adobe do this. Follow your customers, or you die.
and please, stop being so obstructive, or naive about it. Every iOS device is a computer. My iPhone, Core for Core, is already more powerful than my 2012 Mac Pro with its two Xenon 3.47GHz cores. And that’s the 7+. My 2nd gen iPad Pro 12.9” is even more powerful. I’ve done comparisons with the same files, and my iPad often beats my 64GB RAM, 1TB SSD equipped 2012 Mac Pro.
since 75% of all computers bought these days are notebooks, and about half of those have 13” screens with lower Rez than my iPad, I can say that you really aren’t speaking about facts, just what you wish is true.
nobody is saying that an iPad has to replace a 12 Core Desktop with 27” screen in order to be a perfectly good computer, other than those who just can’t bring themselves out of their rut.
Something Apple would never do... and no-one needed, eh?
Which is pretty much something that most no one ever said. I ignore the fanboys who defend everything, even though many of this things are obviously wrong. But the very large majority never said anything of the sort, which, I’m sure you know.
Something Apple would never do... and no-one needed, eh?
Which is pretty much something that most no one ever said. I ignore the fanboys who defend everything, even though many of this things are obviously wrong. But the very large majority never said anything of the sort, which, I’m sure you know.
I dunno, Mel. Maybe we read different threads. My recollection is similar to @cgWerks'. My memory may be defective, but my impression was of the prevailing sentiment being that people only SAY they WANT 32GB of RAM, but don't actually NEED it. It was also common to tell those who expressed a desire for 32GB that there was no way that would happen before Intel released suitable CPUs that support that much LPDDR.
I have no idea whether or not the "majority" expressed those sentiments, but I think @cgWerks is right -- such comments were frequent and plentiful.
He made it very clear that for those who need trucks, the Desktop would remain.
Yeah, but in what form? How long are we going to be waiting for updates in this brave new mobile world?
They said it was because more and more of their professional users were moving to iPads from notebooks, and DEMANDED that Adobe do this. Follow your customers, or you die.
I can absolutely believe that. Maybe the iPad can’t directly match one of those Wacom tablets with a screen behind it, but it cannot be very far behind. And the iPad is far cheaper and does more.
and please, stop being so obstructive, or naive about it. Every iOS device is a computer.
It’d be nice if we saw feature parity, then.
nobody is saying that an iPad has to replace a 12 Core Desktop with 27” screen in order to be a perfectly good computer, other than those who just can’t bring themselves out of their rut.
It’s all about creating content for the platform. Without the Mac, there is no iOS. It just feels like abandonment. When we see an iPad version of Xcode, we’ll know the Mac has about 5 years left before discontinuation.
Rayz2016 said: The complaining is no surprise at all because what these folk really want is a Windows machine with an Apple logo on it.
Yeah, right. LOL
I'd settle for a TouchBar where the Esc key was physical... which could kind of balance out the TouchID on the other end. I just see no use for it... it adds cost, and is kind of in the way. Or, I'd just rather have regular function keys... like Macs have had for decades. I'm not opposed to Macs being, not-a-PC, but then replace the PC-stuff with useful stuff. I have little need for function keys, it's just that the TouchBar wasn't a well thought through replacement.
melgross said: nobody is saying that an iPad has to replace a 12 Core Desktop with 27” screen in order to be a perfectly good computer, other than those who just can’t bring themselves out of their rut.
Very well said.
Except, they just aren't the same thing. It has nothing to do with a rut.
They are two different devices, with different workflows, and different strengths and weaknesses. If Apple pushes nearly all their efforts towards iDevices and doesn't properly support the Mac... THAT is what we're complaining about. I have no problem with a 'car' and 'truck' division. I'll pick the appropriate one or both. But, I actually need a solid effort being put into both. THAT is what we've been complaining about. Hopefully these are some signs of fixing this problem, by Apple.
Something Apple would never do... and no-one needed, eh?
Which is pretty much something that most no one ever said. I ignore the fanboys who defend everything, even though many of this things are obviously wrong. But the very large majority never said anything of the sort, which, I’m sure you know.
I said that in context of these forums. Just go back a few weeks and see what was being said in response to those of us calling for some of the things Apple just did. The 32GB of RAM is a perfect example. There were articles, podcast episodes, etc. all explaining why it wasn't likely we'd be seeing 32GB. They and the forum people here also talked about how unnecessary it was to have such a thing, and how it was all Intel's fault, and how complex it would be if Apple decided to kludge it together. Yet, here it is.
Or, how about all the posts saying Apple would have no reason to incorporate Intel's newer chips, because... no performance to be gained.
Sorry, but I think aside from the extreme fanboys, there might also be a few too many Apple-yes-persons hanging around here too. (What I'll admit they were right on... is that I'm just about as surprised as they probably are, that Apple actually listened and did it!)
They said it was because more and more of their professional users were moving to iPads from notebooks, and DEMANDED that Adobe do this. Follow your customers, or you die.
I can absolutely believe that. Maybe the iPad can’t directly match one of those Wacom tablets with a screen behind it, but it cannot be very far behind. And the iPad is far cheaper and does more.
Yeah, Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. are fairly natural fits. It isn't my thing (I'm more a technical artist.... can't draw/sketch to save my life!), but I know many who were dreaming of such things even decades ago. One of my ex-bosses (industrial designer) was going on and on (in the mid-90s) about how much he wanted a 'graphics tablet' that would be his CAD screen and how such systems should be able to work more like an artist sketches.
I can only imagine how excited ***SOME*** artists are about this. But, that doesn't mean there aren't also herds of us out there who have no real intention of moving our graphics work to tablets or phones. For me, it would be rather pointless. I haven't purchased the mobile version of any of that kind of software yet. My mobile devices are accessories, and I see little - even in my imagination - changing that.
nobody is saying that an iPad has to replace a 12 Core Desktop with 27” screen in order to be a perfectly good computer, other than those who just can’t bring themselves out of their rut.
It’s all about creating content for the platform. Without the Mac, there is no iOS. It just feels like abandonment. When we see an iPad version of Xcode, we’ll know the Mac has about 5 years left before discontinuation.
IMO, it is even more than that, though. I think the car/truck analogy is fairly good. When I'm remodeling my house, a Prius or Model 3 is relatively useless other than running to the hardware store to place an order. Even if the iPad had Xcode, there is still a huge place for a desktop Mac.
The other problem is physics. Even a 12.9" screen is relatively tiny. I'm not going to do the kind of work I do sitting on a couch, holding a tablet. I need keyboard/trackpad/mouse input. And, a desktop will ALWAYS be more powerful than a tablet. Comparing a 2017 tablet to an almost decade old desktop (and burst performance at that, as well as architecture differences) is happening here for a reason. Why not put that iPad up against an iMac Pro?
There's probably a reason people are buying iMac Pros instead just buying an iPad Pro, aside from being in Mac ruts.
I think trackpads that don't actually move, touch bar and low travel keyboards are just a step alone the migration to computers without keyboards. Just as phones with keyboards are pretty much relics, I think eventually a screen with good haptics will replace physical keyboards on most mobile devices including laptops. The physical keyboard will eventually only be found on desktops and as an accessories for old timers who can't handle the change.
I think trackpads that don't actually move, touch bar and low travel keyboards are just a step alone the migration to computers without keyboards. Just as phones with keyboards are pretty much relics, I think eventually a screen with good haptics will replace physical keyboards on most mobile devices including laptops. The physical keyboard will eventually only be found on desktops and as an accessories for old timers who can't handle the change.
I wasn't going to respond to this... but then there was that last sentence about old-timers who can't handle change.
The underlying assumption there, though, is that change is necessarily always positive. Sure, there are some advantages to virtual controls/keyboards, but they aren't without downsides. It isn't just all change for the better.
Why don't we just put a brake-button on a car instead of a brake pedal? Why does a piano have keys instead of just a touch-surface? Ponder those for a few minutes and then come back to this keyboard question. It isn't just a matter of getting used to it. For all the gains, we lose something too. Haptic feedback works for track pads as it was just a simple 'click' mechanic in the first place, being replaced. There was no precision involved in clicking a mouse button, we just need some feedback to know it was clicked.
(Typing) Keyboards are somewhere in-between. We don't need the expressiveness of a piano key or the range of pressure of a brake pedal on a car, but there is a motion/rhythm involved that requires several senses and precise muscle movements. A phone keyboard was terrible in the first place, so going virtual with good auto-correct and predictive technology makes it an acceptable replacement. This isn't the same with computer keyboards.
Could we learn to get by with a virtual keyboard on laptop/desktop? I suppose. Would it be an improvement? Certainly not in terms of typing. So, a physical keyboard isn't some relic of the past that we're clinging to because we can't handle change. It's an accurate, efficient input method that has no successor. And... I really can't imagine any potential successor until we know how to interface the brain with the machine for though input (assuming that is even possible, which it might not be).
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Just for the record, I don't dislike the Touch Bar. I recognize and appreciate the value of contextual controls. I was excited about the Touch Bar when it was announced. That excitement waned not out of resistance to using it, but after a year-and-a-half of living with it and still not finding many compelling reasons for its existence. A few cute parlour tricks, but not much in the way of genuine productivity enhancement. That's why I said I'm indifferent. I'm not saying I think Apple should remove it, just that I don't really care one way or the other.
In other settings, like the processing gear I use or the test equipment you mentioned, contextual controls usually work very well, but in those cases the controls are placed where the user is already looking. They also exist in isolation, with no alternative input methods that might be quicker and easier. In the case of the Mac, it's usually easier to use a keyboard shortcut or pointer than to make a selection on the Touch Bar, and in both cases a touch screen would be even better.
We don't see a lot of it now because only storage capacities are usually in that range at this point, and those are marketed with the1000^4 * n capacity. Apple even made macOS show 1000^4 capacities many years ago as capacities grow and the disparity became more obvious and therefore confusing, but iTunes and Terminal will still list 2^40, I think.
Oddly, the most consumer friendly device from Apple still uses 2^n for measuring capacity in the OS. We're not at TB capacity yet, but the iPad Pros are at 512 GB so I'd expect the next bump in capacity will be to 1 TB. Will iOS make that change to match macOS? Will Apple acknowledge the difference in terms? If they do, I don't think it will still only be hardcore tech sites using it to help remove confusion of a measurement.
I wonder if segmenting the Bar into smaller OLED/micro-LED segments so that, say, every 3 key widths was OLED display you'd have edges you could find, but you could also make it a physical button, too, so that accidental touches can disabled. Speaking of when I just tried to click Quote on your comment but the mouse point kept disappearing on my Mac and nothing would happen when I tapped the Track Bar until I realized I had a finger slightly touching the virtual ESC key on my Control Strip. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I hesitate to say that we should just make every key LED-based because of both cost and need. Eventually that won't be price prohibitive, but if there are still a lot of "Pro" users that can't find a way to make the Touch Bar useful for their workflow then I wonder how they'll be able to do it for entire keyboard.
Or Apple, could go with just a handful of keyboard keys being LED-based buttons. For example, Apple brings back the old ESC key as a basic key on the left, and the makes the power key a basic key on the right (or with Touch ID, if Face ID is here). Then all the keys inside are back to their regular 12 keys using LED-based displays (or maybe 6 double keys). Apple could even make the Space Bar an LED-based display so that it can be a slider as needed; which seems to be a better location for that anyway.
The requirement for 32GB in a mobile machine is definitely a very small niche, and it’s good to see it addressed.
Where hell froze over as far as I’m concerned, is that they pulled the emergency brake on Intel’s train of delays and implemented non-LP DDR4. That, I did not expect to happen.
For the Touch Bar, haptics and a few years of evolution would seem to be the path to widespread adoption.
2) I think Intel pulled their own emergency brake 5x(?) now and Apple got off. I also wonder if there's something else we aren't yet privy to about Intel's future plans since these chips that were suppose to launch in 2017 are now moved back to 2019. Could there be yet another year (or more) or pushbacks from Apple that forced their hand with this unprecedented move?
One thing that we've seen since the MBA's existence helping creating the wonder future of the unibody MBP line is the lines got blurred a bit for many buyers so size had to be the only differential option. Se saw the 13" MacBook die off for years before eventually being reborn a 12" version, which, like the MBA had done previously, led to great changes in the new MBPs.
I wonder if we could see the MBA lie get reborn, too, using a lot of the features of the 12" MacBook, but instead of using Intel's chips which use a lot of power, they will use Apple silicon. Their CPU, their GPU, their LP RAM, etc. all on an SoC that was designed from the ground up to run macOS (or a macOS-like system). This also means a much smaller and lighter design and/or longer running battery, and even better security over Spectre and Meltdown, I assume. Apple using more power-hungry RAM and having to increase the battery capacity dramatically to get the same number of hours ultimately helps to show that Intel is a dinosaur.
Agreed on the Touchbar.
I’d like to see the external keyboard with the Touchbar added. Very useful with BetterTouchTool and the latest IntelliJ toolset.
The complaining is no surprise at all because what these folk really want is a Windows machine with an Apple logo on it.
Very well said.
I have no idea whether or not the "majority" expressed those sentiments, but I think @cgWerks is right -- such comments were frequent and plentiful.
I can absolutely believe that. Maybe the iPad can’t directly match one of those Wacom tablets with a screen behind it, but it cannot be very far behind. And the iPad is far cheaper and does more.
It’d be nice if we saw feature parity, then.
It’s all about creating content for the platform. Without the Mac, there is no iOS. It just feels like abandonment. When we see an iPad version of Xcode, we’ll know the Mac has about 5 years left before discontinuation.
I'd settle for a TouchBar where the Esc key was physical... which could kind of balance out the TouchID on the other end. I just see no use for it... it adds cost, and is kind of in the way. Or, I'd just rather have regular function keys... like Macs have had for decades. I'm not opposed to Macs being, not-a-PC, but then replace the PC-stuff with useful stuff. I have little need for function keys, it's just that the TouchBar wasn't a well thought through replacement.
Except, they just aren't the same thing. It has nothing to do with a rut.
They are two different devices, with different workflows, and different strengths and weaknesses. If Apple pushes nearly all their efforts towards iDevices and doesn't properly support the Mac... THAT is what we're complaining about. I have no problem with a 'car' and 'truck' division. I'll pick the appropriate one or both. But, I actually need a solid effort being put into both. THAT is what we've been complaining about. Hopefully these are some signs of fixing this problem, by Apple.
I said that in context of these forums. Just go back a few weeks and see what was being said in response to those of us calling for some of the things Apple just did. The 32GB of RAM is a perfect example. There were articles, podcast episodes, etc. all explaining why it wasn't likely we'd be seeing 32GB. They and the forum people here also talked about how unnecessary it was to have such a thing, and how it was all Intel's fault, and how complex it would be if Apple decided to kludge it together. Yet, here it is.
Or, how about all the posts saying Apple would have no reason to incorporate Intel's newer chips, because... no performance to be gained.
Sorry, but I think aside from the extreme fanboys, there might also be a few too many Apple-yes-persons hanging around here too.
(What I'll admit they were right on... is that I'm just about as surprised as they probably are, that Apple actually listened and did it!)
Yeah, Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. are fairly natural fits. It isn't my thing (I'm more a technical artist.... can't draw/sketch to save my life!), but I know many who were dreaming of such things even decades ago. One of my ex-bosses (industrial designer) was going on and on (in the mid-90s) about how much he wanted a 'graphics tablet' that would be his CAD screen and how such systems should be able to work more like an artist sketches.
I can only imagine how excited ***SOME*** artists are about this. But, that doesn't mean there aren't also herds of us out there who have no real intention of moving our graphics work to tablets or phones. For me, it would be rather pointless. I haven't purchased the mobile version of any of that kind of software yet. My mobile devices are accessories, and I see little - even in my imagination - changing that.
IMO, it is even more than that, though. I think the car/truck analogy is fairly good. When I'm remodeling my house, a Prius or Model 3 is relatively useless other than running to the hardware store to place an order. Even if the iPad had Xcode, there is still a huge place for a desktop Mac.
The other problem is physics. Even a 12.9" screen is relatively tiny. I'm not going to do the kind of work I do sitting on a couch, holding a tablet. I need keyboard/trackpad/mouse input. And, a desktop will ALWAYS be more powerful than a tablet. Comparing a 2017 tablet to an almost decade old desktop (and burst performance at that, as well as architecture differences) is happening here for a reason. Why not put that iPad up against an iMac Pro?
There's probably a reason people are buying iMac Pros instead just buying an iPad Pro, aside from being in Mac ruts.
The underlying assumption there, though, is that change is necessarily always positive. Sure, there are some advantages to virtual controls/keyboards, but they aren't without downsides. It isn't just all change for the better.
Why don't we just put a brake-button on a car instead of a brake pedal? Why does a piano have keys instead of just a touch-surface? Ponder those for a few minutes and then come back to this keyboard question. It isn't just a matter of getting used to it. For all the gains, we lose something too. Haptic feedback works for track pads as it was just a simple 'click' mechanic in the first place, being replaced. There was no precision involved in clicking a mouse button, we just need some feedback to know it was clicked.
(Typing) Keyboards are somewhere in-between. We don't need the expressiveness of a piano key or the range of pressure of a brake pedal on a car, but there is a motion/rhythm involved that requires several senses and precise muscle movements. A phone keyboard was terrible in the first place, so going virtual with good auto-correct and predictive technology makes it an acceptable replacement. This isn't the same with computer keyboards.
Could we learn to get by with a virtual keyboard on laptop/desktop? I suppose. Would it be an improvement? Certainly not in terms of typing. So, a physical keyboard isn't some relic of the past that we're clinging to because we can't handle change. It's an accurate, efficient input method that has no successor. And... I really can't imagine any potential successor until we know how to interface the brain with the machine for though input (assuming that is even possible, which it might not be).