This is an interesting and aging thread but i dont think people are being honest here when it comes to the expense of Apples hardware. Early this year i bought an HP ENVY to replace a Mac Book Pro 13". This machine runs circles around the Mac it replaces and im fairly sure it out runs the curent MBP 13". At $700 it was about half what Apple was asking.
Yes Windows is crap but Windows is no longer on this machine and instead im running the latest Fedora release. Yes Linux on new hardware suffers from bugs but the transition made starkly noticeable just how bad Windows is. Wifi, the trackpad and a good portion of the base software actually runs better or is more rationally designed. Are we talking Apple level of software quality - no but a $700 difference certainly excuses a lot.
In general, I have to applaud Apple here. While these aren't quite the machines some of us wanted, they are a big step in the right direction.
The one thing that really sucks is the timing. I haven't told my son yet that he could have gotten a machine twice as fast for the same money. Apple certainly knew they were going to release this thing when they hosted WWDC. Even if they didn't have the exact date pinned down, they could have said something.
mpschaefer said: Strange. I must be looking at a different Apple Website.
For the same price I paid for a 2017 15" MacBook Pro with 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD, I can now buy a 2018 15" MacBook Pro with 32GB RAM and 2TB SSD. Not sure how it became more unaffordable with the 2018 release.
They are probably thinking longer term than that. I'm trying to remember what I paid for my 15" MBPs back in the mid-2000s, but I don't recall it being more than the base 13" now. I'm guessing it is mostly the added cost of the stupid TouchBar (which just kind of tweaks me off that I have to pay for something I don't want).
Did they fix they keyboard? No, I didn't think so... quieter is not the problem. Stopping working is the problem, Apple. Hello??
They maybe, kinda, sorta did... or at least maybe enough so. So long as it doesn't need expensive repairs all the time, I can probably get used-enough to it to muddle through. When I'm at my desk, it would be docked with a real keyboard, anyway.
Yeah, that is kind of interesting. You'd think it would be a perfect fit for that.... even better than a phone where you might often need to unlock it while not in front of it (like in the car). BUT, I think most people use these docked (maybe closed) the majority of the time. Then, the camera wouldn't be available.
larryjw said: The MBP13” with four cores is a big deal and I might have optioned to go with this model if it had been available last year. Four cores is the minimum one needs to run a VM — two dedicated to the Mac side, two dedicated to the VM side.
Yeah, same here. This is making my next computer (which I badly need) a tough decision. I also consider 4-core a minimum... but having the portability of the 13" plus that 4-core makes it quite tempting. My main concern is how quiet it is if pushed a bit and longevity if run harder at times.
zoetmb said: ... My late-2008 MBP made it quite easy to upgrade/replace memory, storage and battery and IMO, was a far superior design, if a little thicker, than the current designs. I now have a late-2016 MBP, could only afford 1TB of memory which made it far more expensive than the previous machine and I'll soon be out of storage space in spite of cleaning up files constantly. Apple charges at least twice what you could buy memory/storage for in the open market. $1200 to get from 512 to 2TB is ridiculous and $400 for an extra 16GB of RAM? And Apple shouldn't even be selling machines with 128GB of RAM in an age when people shoot lots of video.
Just remember that we older-timers are comparing HD to SSD. The increase in price and massive decrease in storage space is either across the entire industry, or you're not comparing apples to apples. While I'd love to have similar storage that I used to in the HD days, I'm not looking back at all. SSD is just such a night and day difference. But, that means I've had to completely change workflows.
Apple charging kind of outrageous prices for RAM/storage isn't anything new, but you're right about the lack of upgradability. That does make entry a bit more tricky, as you have to be able to afford a more expensive machine at the start. I also used to buy more base models and then expand them. So, it's a valid point, but I don't think we're going to see those old days again, in this regard.
lkrupp said: Instead I try to adapt and evolve with the technology because I believe that, bottom line, Apple products are worth the price you pay and I don’t see anything else out there that comes even close.
Sort of. But, if one could escape the Apple eco-system, then there are lots of ways to have your cake and eat it too, at least in terms of hardware, storage, RAM, performance, pricing, etc.
If you talk to PC people about all the advantages Apple hardware has, one possible come-back is that they don't need it (all). With Apple, it isn't really an option. And, the non-upgradability thing is a more recent move. So, if someone were comparing the 2000s Macs to modern Macs, I can see where the frustration comes in.
But, I think you're right that we're just going to have to deal with it, at least for laptops. Apple isn't likely to go back to user-expandable for those.
StrangeDays said: What percentage of users have experienced a keyboard defect, specifically? AI’s data suggests it’s only a fraction of the users who have service calls made, and that itself is only 2-3%.
I don't think we know, but we know it isn't nearly that low.
cropr said: Fully agree about the ESC key. Don't agree about the MagSafe if I look how many MagSafe chargers I have had to buy in the past.
HDMI and a single USB-A would be very convenient, definitely for the 15" model where space is less an issue.
I think it's just hard to go back from something as luxurious as MagSafe. While I like the flexibility in connection and charge, USB-C just feels clunky, kludgy, and cheap compared to MagSafe.
The rest, I agree. Ditch the TouchBar and/or implement a mechanical Esc key. The 15" should have at least 1 USB-A and HDMI would be nice. But, I think the ship has sailed on that one.
Sad. Most people who buy laptops for business and general use buy 15” laptops and now Apple has made them unaffordable and added capabilities most users don’t need or want while removing feature like hdmi, MagSafe, functions keys (touch bar is stupid) and USB-a that people need and they still have the worst most unreliable keyboard in the industry.
Customers want a 15”laptop, 4 core, Intel only gpus. Now apple does not have an affordable 15” laptop.
I am buying an dell XPS and running win10 and unbuntu. Apple just lost a customer.
John ivy and tim should be fired for ruining the MacBook family. Apple is brain dead stupid.
Steve jobs is crying in his grave,
Enjoy that dell. In other news, Apple continues to outpace its competitors in hardware sales...
Not sure where you got this data point. Apple ships less than half of what PC vendors, such as Dell/HP/Lenovo sell. Apple is growing slightly faster than the overall market
Which is exactly what he referenced when he said “outpace”. The data point stands - Apple is trending in the correct direction, and is making more profit.
StrangeDays said: What percentage of users have experienced a keyboard defect, specifically? AI’s data suggests it’s only a fraction of the users who have service calls made, and that itself is only 2-3%.
I don't think we know, but we know it isn't nearly that low.
No, you don’t know that at all. Cite your data, please. AI’s Mike W. has explained theirs.
StrangeDays said: No, you don’t know that at all. Cite your data, please. AI’s Mike W. has explained theirs.
When half of all the people I'm aware of with 2016/17 MBPs have had problems, either 2-3% is way off, or we're all just one incredibly unlucky bunch. I suppose it is possible only 2-3% have broken badly enough that people have had to have the keyboards replace, but even that sounds way low. But, I don't consider replacement alone to be the problem... if you have had keys fail and had to get out the air-can, you've experienced the problem. And, if I'm understanding the issue correctly, 100% eventually will.
Comments
Yes Windows is crap but Windows is no longer on this machine and instead im running the latest Fedora release. Yes Linux on new hardware suffers from bugs but the transition made starkly noticeable just how bad Windows is. Wifi, the trackpad and a good portion of the base software actually runs better or is more rationally designed. Are we talking Apple level of software quality - no but a $700 difference certainly excuses a lot.
While these aren't quite the machines some of us wanted, they are a big step in the right direction.
The one thing that really sucks is the timing. I haven't told my son yet that he could have gotten a machine twice as fast for the same money.
They are probably thinking longer term than that. I'm trying to remember what I paid for my 15" MBPs back in the mid-2000s, but I don't recall it being more than the base 13" now. I'm guessing it is mostly the added cost of the stupid TouchBar (which just kind of tweaks me off that I have to pay for something I don't want).
They maybe, kinda, sorta did... or at least maybe enough so. So long as it doesn't need expensive repairs all the time, I can probably get used-enough to it to muddle through. When I'm at my desk, it would be docked with a real keyboard, anyway.
Yeah, that is kind of interesting. You'd think it would be a perfect fit for that.... even better than a phone where you might often need to unlock it while not in front of it (like in the car). BUT, I think most people use these docked (maybe closed) the majority of the time. Then, the camera wouldn't be available.
Just remember that we older-timers are comparing HD to SSD. The increase in price and massive decrease in storage space is either across the entire industry, or you're not comparing apples to apples. While I'd love to have similar storage that I used to in the HD days, I'm not looking back at all. SSD is just such a night and day difference. But, that means I've had to completely change workflows.
Apple charging kind of outrageous prices for RAM/storage isn't anything new, but you're right about the lack of upgradability. That does make entry a bit more tricky, as you have to be able to afford a more expensive machine at the start. I also used to buy more base models and then expand them. So, it's a valid point, but I don't think we're going to see those old days again, in this regard.
Sort of. But, if one could escape the Apple eco-system, then there are lots of ways to have your cake and eat it too, at least in terms of hardware, storage, RAM, performance, pricing, etc.
If you talk to PC people about all the advantages Apple hardware has, one possible come-back is that they don't need it (all). With Apple, it isn't really an option. And, the non-upgradability thing is a more recent move. So, if someone were comparing the 2000s Macs to modern Macs, I can see where the frustration comes in.
But, I think you're right that we're just going to have to deal with it, at least for laptops. Apple isn't likely to go back to user-expandable for those.
I don't think we know, but we know it isn't nearly that low.
I think it's just hard to go back from something as luxurious as MagSafe. While I like the flexibility in connection and charge, USB-C just feels clunky, kludgy, and cheap compared to MagSafe.
The rest, I agree. Ditch the TouchBar and/or implement a mechanical Esc key. The 15" should have at least 1 USB-A and HDMI would be nice. But, I think the ship has sailed on that one.
No, you don’t know that at all. Cite your data, please. AI’s Mike W. has explained theirs.