Apple loses three Indian executives as company struggles with iPhone sales

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 66
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,342member
    DESI DAAM said:

    I am an Indian and I can tell you why Apple will never reach a double digit Market Share in India.

    [...]

    3. When I can buy a Monster with 3 GB RAM, massive 5.5 Inch screen, 32GB Internal and 128GB expandable storage, carved out of high grade Aluminium, having the latest processor and running the latest Nougat or Oreo at 1/3rd the Price(Rs 8000 or $116) of an Iphone(Rs 25000 or $365), Why should I buy an iphone which has 1GB Ram, is almost 3 years old, 4.7" screen with 32GB Storage and No external Storage at all?

    Oh, specs! Sorry, but you don’t understand Apple at all or the product it’s selling. Hint, it has almost nothing to do with spec wars or keeping up with the Jones’ RAM. 
    Apple, and everyone else is dependent on specs. You will never get away from that and trying to argue that having less RAM than others somehow supports your argument doesn't change anything.

    In this particular case, a few valid specs were mentioned. There is no getting away from screensize for example. That was the one spec that gave a shot in the arm to the iPhone.
    Avieshekelijahgmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 22 of 66
    IreneWIreneW Posts: 300member
    nunzy said:
    Apple should just get out of India altogether.  It's not exactly an iPhone-like place. 

    There's plenty of other countries in the world with more wealthy people.  That is where Apple needs to expand.

    Ban India! 
    You really have no idea what the world looks like, do you?
    Avieshekavon b7watto_cobranunzyanantksundaram
  • Reply 23 of 66
    AvieshekAvieshek Posts: 100member
    'M an Indian with an iPhone X and mid-2012 13" MacBook Pro but an Assembled desktop. I suppose, I do hope can shed light to a series of problems not just the demographic as mentioned in most articles.
    Example: if you go back to launch period of iPhone X till around December, Apple reduced Retailer/Wholesalers profits from 6% to 4% when operation costs itself are 10% while Apple marks shareholder results of above 90% or 95% profits.

    The comment system on AppleInsider is really bad. It's Stagnant. I would like to otherwise state and elaborate if not felt a wasted labour. Disqus is way to go. I wouldn't even know, if someone would like to hear or replies here.
    edited July 2018
  • Reply 24 of 66
    DESI DAAM said:

    I am an Indian and I can tell you why Apple will never reach a double digit Market Share in India.

    1. Although Indians are riding on the 4G wave and this is Huge Market!!!!, 45 ~ 50% of Indians including myself use dumbphones(Feature Phones) as our Primary Phones, as we find these Phones incedibly cheap, easy to find, easy to get it repaired, have a ridiculously long Battery back up(sometimes upto a week without Charging!!) quite handy and serves the purpose.


    I don't see your point. This would affect all smartphone manufacturers, not just Apple.

    DESI DAAM said:

    I am an Indian and I can tell you why Apple will never reach a double digit Market Share in India.

    2. The people do buy smartphones but are incredibly witty and spend a lot of time asking people, asking Shop keepers, finding out the specs, making a spec wise comparison of the phones on the Internet and researching a lot before deciding to buy something!(sometimes for months on end!!!)



    Spec comparisons are somewhat meaningless and misleading when Apple uses a customised processor and operating system with a high level of integration. It's an Apple to Orange comparison. Actual real world performance is really all that matters.

    DESI DAAM said:

    I am an Indian and I can tell you why Apple will never reach a double digit Market Share in India.

    3. When I can buy a Monster with 3 GB RAM, massive 5.5 Inch screen, 32GB Internal and 128GB expandable storage, carved out of high grade Aluminium, having the latest processor and running the latest Nougat or Oreo at 1/3rd the Price(Rs 8000 or $116) of an Iphone(Rs 25000 or $365), Why should I buy an iphone which has 1GB Ram, is almost 3 years old, 4.7" screen with 32GB Storage and No external Storage at all?


    Over and over again, lower spec'd iPhones have been shown to beat much higher spec'd Android phones (Samsung, etc,.) in real world tests. Again, much of that comes down to Android manufacturers using stock parts and a stock OS, which they have little or no control over. Android is also far, far, far, less secure than iOS and comparable hardware features like TouchID or FaceID work far more reliably on iOS. Once you balance it all out, the Android phone bargin is not as great as it appears, because you'll have to buy an over spec'd phone to match the iPhone's performance.

    DESI DAAM said:

    I am an Indian and I can tell you why Apple will never reach a double digit Market Share in India.

    4. Even Samsung is finding it very hard to compete in India and is loosing their Market share at an epic pace to a host of domestic and Chinese Companies. I think the only companies understanding the Indian temperment and the Market is Xaomi, Lenovo, Micromax, Huwei etc etc etc.

    I really don't see how "Indian temperament" has anything to do with it. Indians on average just have less disposable cash than those in the West and like anyone on a tight budget they buy budget items.


    watto_cobraStrangeDaysnewBeliever
  • Reply 25 of 66
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,342member
    DESI DAAM said:

    I am an Indian and I can tell you why Apple will never reach a double digit Market Share in India.

    1. Although Indians are riding on the 4G wave and this is Huge Market!!!!, 45 ~ 50% of Indians including myself use dumbphones(Feature Phones) as our Primary Phones, as we find these Phones incedibly cheap, easy to find, easy to get it repaired, have a ridiculously long Battery back up(sometimes upto a week without Charging!!) quite handy and serves the purpose.


    I don't see your point. This would affect all smartphone manufacturers, not just Apple.

    DESI DAAM said:

    I am an Indian and I can tell you why Apple will never reach a double digit Market Share in India.

    2. The people do buy smartphones but are incredibly witty and spend a lot of time asking people, asking Shop keepers, finding out the specs, making a spec wise comparison of the phones on the Internet and researching a lot before deciding to buy something!(sometimes for months on end!!!)



    Spec comparisons are somewhat meaningless and misleading when Apple uses a customised processor and operating system with a high level of integration. It's an Apple to Orange comparison. Actual real world performance is really all that matters.

    DESI DAAM said:

    I am an Indian and I can tell you why Apple will never reach a double digit Market Share in India.

    3. When I can buy a Monster with 3 GB RAM, massive 5.5 Inch screen, 32GB Internal and 128GB expandable storage, carved out of high grade Aluminium, having the latest processor and running the latest Nougat or Oreo at 1/3rd the Price(Rs 8000 or $116) of an Iphone(Rs 25000 or $365), Why should I buy an iphone which has 1GB Ram, is almost 3 years old, 4.7" screen with 32GB Storage and No external Storage at all?


    Over and over again, lower spec'd iPhones have been shown to beat much higher spec'd Android phones (Samsung, etc,.) in real world tests. Again, much of that comes down to Android manufacturers using stock parts and a stock OS, which they have little or no control over. Android is also far, far, far, less secure than iOS and comparable hardware features like TouchID or FaceID work far more reliably on iOS. Once you balance it all out, the Android phone bargin is not as great as it appears, because you'll have to buy an over spec'd phone to match the iPhone's performance.

    DESI DAAM said:

    I am an Indian and I can tell you why Apple will never reach a double digit Market Share in India.

    4. Even Samsung is finding it very hard to compete in India and is loosing their Market share at an epic pace to a host of domestic and Chinese Companies. I think the only companies understanding the Indian temperment and the Market is Xaomi, Lenovo, Micromax, Huwei etc etc etc.

    I really don't see how "Indian temperament" has anything to do with it. Indians on average just have less disposable cash than those in the West and like anyone on a tight budget they buy budget items.


    His first point was on the benefits of feature phones which Apple doesn't make.

    While processor, OS etc are specs that can't be easily compared, there are plenty more that can, screensize, microSD, dual SIM, storage, cameras, battery etc.

    A current Huawei, Xiaomi, Samsung in the price range of an iPhone 6 will be far more attractive to potential buyers.

    Selling an old iPhone 6 makes sense to a degree, why not try if you have nothing to lose? However, if it doesn't play out, you have to look at other options if you want to get a foothold in these markets.

    I suppose these staff loses simply make things a little more difficult.
    elijahgmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 26 of 66
    asciiascii Posts: 5,936member
    If you can't sell iPhones what can you sell? Product of the decade.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 66
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,424member
    IreneW said:
    nunzy said:
    Apple should just get out of India altogether.  It's not exactly an iPhone-like place. 

    There's plenty of other countries in the world with more wealthy people.  That is where Apple needs to expand.

    Ban India! 
    You really have no idea what the world looks like, do you?
    I don't think Nunzy is here for rational discussion. 

    Sog35.....
    nunzyradarthekatmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 28 of 66
    IreneWIreneW Posts: 300member
    gatorguy said:
    IreneW said:
    nunzy said:
    Apple should just get out of India altogether.  It's not exactly an iPhone-like place. 

    There's plenty of other countries in the world with more wealthy people.  That is where Apple needs to expand.

    Ban India! 
    You really have no idea what the world looks like, do you?
    I don't think Nunzy is here for rational discussion. 

    Sog35.....
    Yes, sorry about that, I usually try to just ignore him/her.

    But in this thread there seems to be a lot of AI regulars that don't know much about India or the way emerging markets work. Or much about how Apple relates to other tech manufacturers, but that is less surprising.
    nunzy
  • Reply 29 of 66
    nunzynunzy Posts: 662member
    kkapoor said:
    I have family in India and all of them are iPhone users. However, most middle to upper class Indians have some family in the US or Canada or UK. They are wealthy enough to pay the premium in India for the iPhone but smart enough to just pick it up when they visit their family abroad or ask their family to bring one for them when they visit during the Christmas holidays. A couple of hundred dollars is still a couple of hundred dollars. The Indian mentality about spending money is what Apple really needs to understand. In my view, in order to grow sales in India Apple will have to accept a lower margin on each phone and build loyalty into the population through price. That will pay dividends in the long run.
    Profit is more important than market share. Apple needs to maintain its margins. No race to the bottom.
  • Reply 30 of 66
    kkapoorkkapoor Posts: 22member
    nunzy said:
    kkapoor said:
    I have family in India and all of them are iPhone users. However, most middle to upper class Indians have some family in the US or Canada or UK. They are wealthy enough to pay the premium in India for the iPhone but smart enough to just pick it up when they visit their family abroad or ask their family to bring one for them when they visit during the Christmas holidays. A couple of hundred dollars is still a couple of hundred dollars. The Indian mentality about spending money is what Apple really needs to understand. In my view, in order to grow sales in India Apple will have to accept a lower margin on each phone and build loyalty into the population through price. That will pay dividends in the long run.
    Profit is more important than market share. Apple needs to maintain its margins. No race to the bottom.
    The issue is marketshare not profitability; If you have minuscule market share then profit is constrained regardless . Not every market is alike. There is no requirement to race to the bottom. But you have to be price competitive. Indians recognize & appreciate Apple quality like anyone else but they simply won't pay a premium if they can easily acquire the product at a lower price.
    nunzy
  • Reply 31 of 66
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,342member
    nunzy said:
    kkapoor said:
    I have family in India and all of them are iPhone users. However, most middle to upper class Indians have some family in the US or Canada or UK. They are wealthy enough to pay the premium in India for the iPhone but smart enough to just pick it up when they visit their family abroad or ask their family to bring one for them when they visit during the Christmas holidays. A couple of hundred dollars is still a couple of hundred dollars. The Indian mentality about spending money is what Apple really needs to understand. In my view, in order to grow sales in India Apple will have to accept a lower margin on each phone and build loyalty into the population through price. That will pay dividends in the long run.
    Profit is more important than market share. Apple needs to maintain its margins. No race to the bottom.
    You have misunderstood something. This isn't about making something available at a lower price. The iPhone 6 is already at a low price. In that context and from your viewpoint, you could say that Apple is already in a race to the bottom. All of its smartphone competitors match Apple at every price band. Some even go lower and some even go higher. The problem (if these rumours and estimates are to be believed) is that Apple just isn't shifting large numbers.

    Another way to see it is that 'race to the bottom' has become a meaningless soundbite that has little to do with reality when it comes to the biggest smartphone manufacturers.

    If the strategy of selling lower priced phones that are a few years old doesn't get the expected results, Apple has a couple of options:

    1. Go back to the 2016 plan, reduce the product spread and eliminate some price bands.

    2. Do what competitors do. Keep the price bands but plunk NEW hardware into them and possibly alter release cycles.

    I think you can rule out option one.
    nunzy
  • Reply 32 of 66
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,634member
    nunzy said:
    kkapoor said:
    I have family in India and all of them are iPhone users. However, most middle to upper class Indians have some family in the US or Canada or UK. They are wealthy enough to pay the premium in India for the iPhone but smart enough to just pick it up when they visit their family abroad or ask their family to bring one for them when they visit during the Christmas holidays. A couple of hundred dollars is still a couple of hundred dollars. The Indian mentality about spending money is what Apple really needs to understand. In my view, in order to grow sales in India Apple will have to accept a lower margin on each phone and build loyalty into the population through price. That will pay dividends in the long run.
    Profit is more important than market share. Apple needs to maintain its margins. No race to the bottom.
    As usual your baseless comments show you have such a simplistic view on Apple and the world. Profit is important, but so is market share. If Apple has 80% profit on 1% market share, that's a lot less income than 40% profit on 5% share. Low market share has other problems; Apple-only services can only be used by a minority of the market making it inconvenient for those Apple users to share with non-Apple users. Developers see it as a small market so are less likely to develop for the platform. It's the same vicious circle that Apple was stuck in in the '90's, but Jobs was able to break out of it and hugely increase Mac market share.
    newBelievernunzy
  • Reply 33 of 66
    FolioFolio Posts: 698member
    By 2025, India will be among top five countries in terms of Apple sales-- and likely the fastest growing of the group. This unusual shakeup shows how important the English-speaking colossus is to Tim Cook. Comments here so far focus on phones, but shouldn't neglect wearables, larger screens, and media. Yes India has smart and savvy consumers and as market matures will appreciate life cycle costs of what they buy. I don't think Siri understands Hinglish [Hindu-English hybrid] yet, unlike Amazon's devices, but that too will come.
    kayess
  • Reply 34 of 66
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,526moderator
    Apple doesn’t yet have stores in India.  Same as here in the Philippines, another, albeit smaller, developing country, with 105 million people.  But what I see here in the Philippines is dedicated Apple resellers.  High-end chains that sell only Apple computers, tablets, phones and watches, etc.  They are setup like Apple stores, with presentation tables for each product, Genius Bar analogs, all the Apple cases and accessories and the same 3rd-party Bluetooth speakers, etc.   iStore is one such chain, with about 8 stores here in Cebu and more to be found in other major cities throughout the country (Manila, Davao, General Santos, Iloilo, Baguio, Angeles, Desmariñas, and dozens more cities).  There’s another called Mac Store that focuses more on Mac computers but also carries iPhones and iPads.  And I’ve seen a third chain, but I can’t recall the name.  There’s healthy traffic in these stores, so Apple has a strong presence there, along with Samsung and all the Chinese brands in their own dedicated stores.  Every mall of any size, from small to large, has a prominent Electronics Zone section, and it’s called that in all malls, regardless of the mall operator, whether Ayala, SM, Giasano, or Metro (those are the four major national mall developers here).  Here in the Philippines you do see many of the very poor using feature phones, and 40% of the populace falls into the very poor category.  Another 40% of the populace is what we in the west would call the lower class.  These folks here make about $200-300/month.  There are many smartphone brands to serve them, from Vivo, Oppo, Huewei, to lower priced local brands.  The final 20% of the populace is the middle class, but more like lower middle class in western terms. Incomes in this class vary widely, with many at $400-500/month (teachers, call center operators) to $1500-2000/month management level, to doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc.  I live within the western alcoves where many BPO personnel work, but don’t live, and where many management professionals both work and live.  I see iPhones everywhere in this context; it’s an aspirational
    product. 

    I suspect India, in per capital terms, is a bit behind the Philippines, and so it might be years before there exist nationwide chains of dedicated 3rd-party Apple resellers like exist here in the Philippines, and more years before there are many actual Apple stores.  There are none yet here in the Philippines.  But iPhone penetration will come, as it has here.  And in the meantime, India’s 12x larger population should provide meaningful iPhone unit sales numbers.  The future is long, and the global middle class is growing. This is what Tim Cook knows. 
    anantksundaramracerhomie3muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 35 of 66
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,357member
    Avieshek said:

    The comment system on AppleInsider is really bad. It's Stagnant. I would like to otherwise state and elaborate if not felt a wasted labour. Disqus is way to go. I wouldn't even know, if someone would like to hear or replies here.
    It works fine for any number of us. Get used to it, and stop whining.
    StrangeDaysracerhomie3muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 36 of 66
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,357member
    gatorguy said:

    Sog35.....
    IIRC, @Sog35 -- full disclosure: despite his many detractors here, I thought he brought a useful iconoclastic POV to the forum -- was quite a cheerleader for Apple in India.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 37 of 66
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,357member
    elijahg said:
    nunzy said:
    kkapoor said:
    I have family in India and all of them are iPhone users. However, most middle to upper class Indians have some family in the US or Canada or UK. They are wealthy enough to pay the premium in India for the iPhone but smart enough to just pick it up when they visit their family abroad or ask their family to bring one for them when they visit during the Christmas holidays. A couple of hundred dollars is still a couple of hundred dollars. The Indian mentality about spending money is what Apple really needs to understand. In my view, in order to grow sales in India Apple will have to accept a lower margin on each phone and build loyalty into the population through price. That will pay dividends in the long run.
    Profit is more important than market share. Apple needs to maintain its margins. No race to the bottom.
    As usual your baseless comments show you have such a simplistic view on Apple and the world. Profit is important, but so is market share. If Apple has 80% profit on 1% market share, that's a lot less income than 40% profit on 5% share. Low market share has other problems; Apple-only services can only be used by a minority of the market making it inconvenient for those Apple users to share with non-Apple users. Developers see it as a small market so are less likely to develop for the platform. It's the same vicious circle that Apple was stuck in in the '90's, but Jobs was able to break out of it and hugely increase Mac market share.
    These arguments have been trotted out ad nauseum. If you think iOS has a problem with developers, I have one thing to say: LOL.
    StrangeDaysnunzy
  • Reply 38 of 66
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,208member
    djsherly said:
    DESI DAAM said:

    I am an Indian and I can tell you why Apple will never reach a double digit Market Share in India.

    [...]

    3. When I can buy a Monster with 3 GB RAM, massive 5.5 Inch screen, 32GB Internal and 128GB expandable storage, carved out of high grade Aluminium, having the latest processor and running the latest Nougat or Oreo at 1/3rd the Price(Rs 8000 or $116) of an Iphone(Rs 25000 or $365), Why should I buy an iphone which has 1GB Ram, is almost 3 years old, 4.7" screen with 32GB Storage and No external Storage at all?

    Oh, specs! Sorry, but you don’t understand Apple at all or the product it’s selling. Hint, it has almost nothing to do with spec wars or keeping up with the Jones’ RAM. 
    I do think you’ve possibly missed the point. OP gave you some insight into the way Indians think. Its in the part you redacted and they seem to absolutely perceive these things in terms of spacs rather than experiences. 

    The real challenge is to get these potential users to think behind the spec wars and understand how APple adds value rather than cost to peoples lives. 
    I didn’t miss the point. The user posted specs as if specs were valuable for specs sake alone (external storage!). This is a misunderstanding of Apple’s product strategy and thus that’s my critique of their critique. 
    radarthekatelijahg
  • Reply 39 of 66
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,208member
    avon b7 said:
    DESI DAAM said:

    I am an Indian and I can tell you why Apple will never reach a double digit Market Share in India.

    [...]

    3. When I can buy a Monster with 3 GB RAM, massive 5.5 Inch screen, 32GB Internal and 128GB expandable storage, carved out of high grade Aluminium, having the latest processor and running the latest Nougat or Oreo at 1/3rd the Price(Rs 8000 or $116) of an Iphone(Rs 25000 or $365), Why should I buy an iphone which has 1GB Ram, is almost 3 years old, 4.7" screen with 32GB Storage and No external Storage at all?

    Oh, specs! Sorry, but you don’t understand Apple at all or the product it’s selling. Hint, it has almost nothing to do with spec wars or keeping up with the Jones’ RAM. 
    Apple, and everyone else is dependent on specs. You will never get away from that and trying to argue that having less RAM than others somehow supports your argument doesn't change anything.

    In this particular case, a few valid specs were mentioned. There is no getting away from screensize for example. That was the one spec that gave a shot in the arm to the iPhone.
    Nonsense. First I never claimed that Apple products don’t have specs, I said that trying to argue a product is better because it has better specs is stupid and ignorant of Apple product strategy and its value incentive. Not being an Apple guy you continue to demonstrate that you fail to grasp this. 

    Case in point, those chinese knockoffs you’re fond of need more RAM than an iPhone does to achieve the same end user experience. 

    racerhomie3elijahg
  • Reply 40 of 66
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,424member
    gatorguy said:

    Sog35.....
    IIRC, @Sog35 -- full disclosure: despite his many detractors here, I thought he brought a useful iconoclastic POV to the forum -- was quite a cheerleader for Apple in India.
    The Sog you remember had a few different hats. 
    radarthekat
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