nightwatch said: I worked at Apple when System 7.5 was released. This was about a year before Jobs came back. A new Control Panel called the TCP/IP Control Panel made its debut with 7.5. It was a necessary component for Mac users because it allowed them to connect to the internet. And it didn’t work. It was a total piece of crap. The few engineers left at Apple that weren’t busy making a mess of Copland (which I saw, btw), couldn’t fix it.
Yeah, but this also has to be put into context that the Internet and some of the networking protocols bolted on to OSs were a bit voodoo'ish anyway, everywhere.
I don't think anyone (I hope) is saying that they'd rather go back to System 7.5, or even Snow Leopard. But, we'd like to see the same care that was applied to MacOS back in Snow Leopard days to be applied to the current versions (which it doesn't seem to be).
nightwatch said: My point is this. In 2012, after social media finished mourning Steve Jobs’ death, a giant target was painted on Apple’s back and we witnessed the first major social media bullying campaign in history directed at a company.
Yes, but at that time, maybe of we Apple evangelists/loyalists were speaking against that campaign, because the reasoning for the doom predictions was silly.
Then, we watched as Apple started to (seemingly) shift focus from making the best stuff, to marketing/spreadsheet driven design, and UX-priority was replaced with appeals to fashion (which was particularly horrifying, as we used to have to defend our decisions to buy Macs as NOT to show off).
We might not have Tim's level of business smarts, but we recognize that what made Apple great, or at least gave them the opportunity to be... was making excellent stuff, UX, and treating the customer right... which translated into lots of sales, profits, and rabidly loyal customers. If that gets lost, it's much easier for Apple to slip up and fall (though burning through hundreds of $billions would take a while, at worst).
nightwatch said: It’s now July 2018, and in a year or two when Apple finally gets its Mac offerings strong, and iOS and the A Series chips have discouraged many Android phone manufacturers out of business, (when Apple, Google and possibly Microsoft are left standing - Samsung looses interest in smartphones partially because Google will push them out), the Apple hate trend will have run its course and these little software issues will long have been forgotten. IMO, of course.
I sure hope you're right. I think the iMac Pro has done more to give me some hope on the hardware side (even if it isn't the ideal machine for me). But, as you mentioned, it's the software that really made Apple... and that is why I'm still kinda scared. I haven't seen a recommitment to the OSs, though *maybe* this round will be that? I haven't had a chance to work with them yet.
I don't think anyone (I hope) is saying that they'd rather go back to System 7.5, or even Snow Leopard. But, we'd like to see the same care that was applied to MacOS back in Snow Leopard days to be applied to the current versions (which it doesn't seem to be).
By all accounts I've seen, Mojave is one of the most stable beta launches in recent memory. Maybe you don't remember, but Snow Leopard was buggy as shit when it came out and didn't stabilize for several updates after its initial public release.
Then, we watched as Apple started to (seemingly) shift focus from making the best stuff, to marketing/spreadsheet driven design, and UX-priority was replaced with appeals to fashion (which was particularly horrifying, as we used to have to defend our decisions to buy Macs as NOT to show off).
[...]
But, as you mentioned, it's the software that really made Apple... and that is why I'm still kinda scared. I haven't seen a recommitment to the OSs, though *maybe* this round will be that? I haven't had a chance to work with them yet.
What on Earth is "marketing/spreadsheet driven design" and what drives you to think Apple is doing that? That's sounds antithetical to everything we know about how Apple designs products. Anticipating you may say they're prioritizing "thinner over everything else", I direct you to Jobs unveiling the first MacBook Air. Or the fact they're not building your 7lb Homer Car™ MacBook Pro, there's no market for that besides you and a handful of other dinosaurs who they will continue to ignore. I don't think either of these things is a result of Cook running Apple.
I honestly do not believe there was any point where Apple was uncommitted to their OSes. All signs point to them overhauling iOS and macOS quite a bit this round. But you didn't see visual changes you wanted to see (like, a reversal of ten years of UI design I assume), and features you won't use, so you insinuate they're uncommitted to the OSes. I call BS.
fastasleep said: By all accounts I've seen, Mojave is one of the most stable beta launches in recent memory. Maybe you don't remember, but Snow Leopard was buggy as shit when it came out and didn't stabilize for several updates after its initial public release.
That is good to hear (re: Mojave). But, I'm not as much talking about bugs and number of releases until stability, but app design, core technologies, UI consistency/quality, etc. Sure, QC concerns me too... how many revisions of the last iOS did we need before it was even really out of what should have been beta? I don't recall it being that bad in the past.
fastasleep said: What on Earth is "marketing/spreadsheet driven design" and what drives you to think Apple is doing that? That's sounds antithetical to everything we know about how Apple designs products. Anticipating you may say they're prioritizing "thinner over everything else", I direct you to Jobs unveiling the first MacBook Air. Or the fact they're not building your 7lb Homer Car™ MacBook Pro, there's no market for that besides you and a handful of other dinosaurs who they will continue to ignore. I don't think either of these things is a result of Cook running Apple.
I honestly do not believe there was any point where Apple was uncommitted to their OSes. All signs point to them overhauling iOS and macOS quite a bit this round. But you didn't see visual changes you wanted to see (like, a reversal of ten years of UI design I assume), and features you won't use, so you insinuate they're uncommitted to the OSes. I call BS.
In a way, you answered your own question there. When you decide how a product will be built based on maximizing sales numbers, that is marketing driven design. When you build a line of products to cover needs and use-cases, regardless of how many of each sell, that would be the opposite. Apple was never 100% one way or the other (as is no company), but they've drifted much further in the marketing-driven way, IMO.
I think the MacBook Pros are a good example. Joke all you want about thin and Homer Car, but real pros would probably take a 5.6lb (like mid-2000s MBP) with ports and power over the thin ones today if given the choice. I love a small thin laptop as much as the next person (our family owns 2 MBAs currently), but it is aimed at a different market. Pros like thing, small, light also, but not at the expense of too much performance or utility. Notice that you said Jobs unveiled the MacBook Air, not MacBook Pro.
The previous Apple realized it was important to invest in making true pro machines, even for a handful of dinosaurs. The previous Apple realized it was important to put serious money/time into things like education that wouldn't pay off for decades and maybe could never be tracked on the spreadsheets.
re: OSs, it's hard for me to believe you've been a long-time Apple user with statements like that. Maybe you don't feel it was a lack of commitment... and maybe it wasn't. But, I'm hoping we're emerging from some rather dark times in terms of the OS. Yes, some of it is visual... I think iOS 7 was awful, and is now being refined back into something more OK. A lot of the problems on the Mac are just sloppy implementations/integrations of iCloud/iOS stuff. Maybe that will get cleaned up soon.
I think the MacBook Pros are a good example. Joke all you want about thin and Homer Car, but real pros would probably take a 5.6lb (like mid-2000s MBP) with ports and power over the thin ones today if given the choice.
Again with the "real pros". Give me a break. /eyeroll
Real pros just want to get their work done, and the current MBPs are by far the most powerful portable Macs ever. The users you're talking about are a minuscule fraction of the user base.
The previous Apple realized it was important to invest in making true pro machines, even for a handful of dinosaurs. The previous Apple realized it was important to put serious money/time into things like education that wouldn't pay off for decades and maybe could never be tracked on the spreadsheets.
The "previous Apple" made thick/heavy laptops with half a dozen different ports because that was the technology that was available at the time. None of those machines were faster or more flexible than what we have now (and no, I don't consider being able to use USB-A thumb drives or optical media an essential function of a "pro" machine). 17" MBPs didn't sell well enough to justify the costs, obviously. Everyone has moved on.
How you can say that about education when they just had an education event this year and unveiled Classroom is bizarre.
re: OSs, it's hard for me to believe you've been a long-time Apple user with statements like that. Maybe you don't feel it was a lack of commitment... and maybe it wasn't. But, I'm hoping we're emerging from some rather dark times in terms of the OS. Yes, some of it is visual... I think iOS 7 was awful, and is now being refined back into something more OK. A lot of the problems on the Mac are just sloppy implementations/integrations of iCloud/iOS stuff. Maybe that will get cleaned up soon.
I've been an Apple user since learning LOGO on the Apple II in elementary school. iOS 7 was definitely ripping the bandaid off, and it did take a while for the pendulum to swing back some, but just because you think it was awful doesn't mean it was. Your opinion isn't fact, just as I can say that iOS 6 was awful, and that's simply my opinion. I think iOS is great right now. I also think macOS is great right now, and is very clearly getting some much needed love with Mojave. I don't really have any problems with "sloppy implementations/integrations of iCloud/iOS stuff" so not sure what that means exactly. The iOS 12 changes are less dramatic, but as they stated their goals last year to clean things up, I believe there is a lot of work going on under the hood on both fronts.
fastasleep said: Again with the "real pros". Give me a break. /eyeroll
Real pros just want to get their work done, and the current MBPs are by far the most powerful portable Macs ever. The users you're talking about are a minuscule fraction of the user base.
I can use another term, but what I mean by that, are people with high-demand computing power to get their jobs done (as opposed to, say, a lawyer that just wants a nice laptop in the courtroom). Both are professionals, but one has higher hardware *needs* than the other. They will make tradeoffs the other will not.
What percentage of the user-base do you think bought 'cheese grater' Mac Pros? How about xServes? Apple used to cater to that fraction of the user-base... hence the complaining.
But, it's more than feeling left out (or, knowing other are, as I no longer *need* that kind of hardware for the most part). I've often used the analogy of Chevy with their Corvette or Ford with the GT40, etc. These are important parts of their product line beyond sales numbers. Similar for Apple's service to the creative pros. The benefits extend way beyond the pie-chart and spreadsheet.
fastasleep said: The "previous Apple" made thick/heavy laptops with half a dozen different ports because that was the technology that was available at the time. None of those machines were faster or more flexible than what we have now (and no, I don't consider being able to use USB-A thumb drives or optical media an essential function of a "pro" machine). 17" MBPs didn't sell well enough to justify the costs, obviously. Everyone has moved on.
How you can say that about education when they just had an education event this year and unveiled Classroom is bizarre.
Well, of course the new machines are faster than the ones from a decade or two ago. The question is more what audience they are focused on and how comparable they are in carrying out the intended tasks. As for ports, I'm not sure how *not* having a USB-A helps any pro get their work done better.
re: education - putting on a dog and pony show isn't the same as making a substantial investment in education along many vectors.
fastasleep said: I don't really have any problems with "sloppy implementations/integrations of iCloud/iOS stuff" so not sure what that means exactly. The iOS 12 changes are less dramatic, but as they stated their goals last year to clean things up, I believe there is a lot of work going on under the hood on both fronts.
Well, just to give you a concrete example... I've spent probably 20+ hours in the last couple of years messing with just trying to get Apple IDs properly working on several of our devices. I still have issues with it popping up a box asking for my Apple ID while I'm in some other app on my iPhone. And, I've had issues where it was popping up a dialog with an old email address, wanting the password (which obviously didn't work because the email was wrong), for over a year after I changed my Apple ID email.
I could go on with missing or poorly implemented features. Cloud sync issues. etc. etc. I simply didn't have that level of issues from like the early 2000s until the last few years. And, even pre-2000, the issues were pretty easy for me to resolve (though maybe that was just due to my expertise). The most annoying thing from the 2000s was problems with WiFi dropping on laptops.
But, I'm hoping you're right and they did a serious 'cleaning' and 'fixing' this round of OSs.
Comments
I don't think anyone (I hope) is saying that they'd rather go back to System 7.5, or even Snow Leopard. But, we'd like to see the same care that was applied to MacOS back in Snow Leopard days to be applied to the current versions (which it doesn't seem to be).
Yes, but at that time, maybe of we Apple evangelists/loyalists were speaking against that campaign, because the reasoning for the doom predictions was silly.
Then, we watched as Apple started to (seemingly) shift focus from making the best stuff, to marketing/spreadsheet driven design, and UX-priority was replaced with appeals to fashion (which was particularly horrifying, as we used to have to defend our decisions to buy Macs as NOT to show off).
We might not have Tim's level of business smarts, but we recognize that what made Apple great, or at least gave them the opportunity to be... was making excellent stuff, UX, and treating the customer right... which translated into lots of sales, profits, and rabidly loyal customers. If that gets lost, it's much easier for Apple to slip up and fall (though burning through hundreds of $billions would take a while, at worst).
I sure hope you're right. I think the iMac Pro has done more to give me some hope on the hardware side (even if it isn't the ideal machine for me). But, as you mentioned, it's the software that really made Apple... and that is why I'm still kinda scared. I haven't seen a recommitment to the OSs, though *maybe* this round will be that? I haven't had a chance to work with them yet.
What on Earth is "marketing/spreadsheet driven design" and what drives you to think Apple is doing that? That's sounds antithetical to everything we know about how Apple designs products. Anticipating you may say they're prioritizing "thinner over everything else", I direct you to Jobs unveiling the first MacBook Air. Or the fact they're not building your 7lb Homer Car™ MacBook Pro, there's no market for that besides you and a handful of other dinosaurs who they will continue to ignore. I don't think either of these things is a result of Cook running Apple.
I honestly do not believe there was any point where Apple was uncommitted to their OSes. All signs point to them overhauling iOS and macOS quite a bit this round. But you didn't see visual changes you wanted to see (like, a reversal of ten years of UI design I assume), and features you won't use, so you insinuate they're uncommitted to the OSes. I call BS.
In a way, you answered your own question there. When you decide how a product will be built based on maximizing sales numbers, that is marketing driven design. When you build a line of products to cover needs and use-cases, regardless of how many of each sell, that would be the opposite. Apple was never 100% one way or the other (as is no company), but they've drifted much further in the marketing-driven way, IMO.
I think the MacBook Pros are a good example. Joke all you want about thin and Homer Car, but real pros would probably take a 5.6lb (like mid-2000s MBP) with ports and power over the thin ones today if given the choice. I love a small thin laptop as much as the next person (our family owns 2 MBAs currently), but it is aimed at a different market. Pros like thing, small, light also, but not at the expense of too much performance or utility. Notice that you said Jobs unveiled the MacBook Air, not MacBook Pro.
The previous Apple realized it was important to invest in making true pro machines, even for a handful of dinosaurs. The previous Apple realized it was important to put serious money/time into things like education that wouldn't pay off for decades and maybe could never be tracked on the spreadsheets.
re: OSs, it's hard for me to believe you've been a long-time Apple user with statements like that. Maybe you don't feel it was a lack of commitment... and maybe it wasn't. But, I'm hoping we're emerging from some rather dark times in terms of the OS. Yes, some of it is visual... I think iOS 7 was awful, and is now being refined back into something more OK. A lot of the problems on the Mac are just sloppy implementations/integrations of iCloud/iOS stuff. Maybe that will get cleaned up soon.
Real pros just want to get their work done, and the current MBPs are by far the most powerful portable Macs ever. The users you're talking about are a minuscule fraction of the user base.
The "previous Apple" made thick/heavy laptops with half a dozen different ports because that was the technology that was available at the time. None of those machines were faster or more flexible than what we have now (and no, I don't consider being able to use USB-A thumb drives or optical media an essential function of a "pro" machine). 17" MBPs didn't sell well enough to justify the costs, obviously. Everyone has moved on.
How you can say that about education when they just had an education event this year and unveiled Classroom is bizarre.
I've been an Apple user since learning LOGO on the Apple II in elementary school. iOS 7 was definitely ripping the bandaid off, and it did take a while for the pendulum to swing back some, but just because you think it was awful doesn't mean it was. Your opinion isn't fact, just as I can say that iOS 6 was awful, and that's simply my opinion. I think iOS is great right now. I also think macOS is great right now, and is very clearly getting some much needed love with Mojave. I don't really have any problems with "sloppy implementations/integrations of iCloud/iOS stuff" so not sure what that means exactly. The iOS 12 changes are less dramatic, but as they stated their goals last year to clean things up, I believe there is a lot of work going on under the hood on both fronts.
What percentage of the user-base do you think bought 'cheese grater' Mac Pros? How about xServes? Apple used to cater to that fraction of the user-base... hence the complaining.
But, it's more than feeling left out (or, knowing other are, as I no longer *need* that kind of hardware for the most part). I've often used the analogy of Chevy with their Corvette or Ford with the GT40, etc. These are important parts of their product line beyond sales numbers. Similar for Apple's service to the creative pros. The benefits extend way beyond the pie-chart and spreadsheet.
Well, of course the new machines are faster than the ones from a decade or two ago. The question is more what audience they are focused on and how comparable they are in carrying out the intended tasks. As for ports, I'm not sure how *not* having a USB-A helps any pro get their work done better.
re: education - putting on a dog and pony show isn't the same as making a substantial investment in education along many vectors.
Well, just to give you a concrete example... I've spent probably 20+ hours in the last couple of years messing with just trying to get Apple IDs properly working on several of our devices. I still have issues with it popping up a box asking for my Apple ID while I'm in some other app on my iPhone. And, I've had issues where it was popping up a dialog with an old email address, wanting the password (which obviously didn't work because the email was wrong), for over a year after I changed my Apple ID email.
I could go on with missing or poorly implemented features. Cloud sync issues. etc. etc. I simply didn't have that level of issues from like the early 2000s until the last few years. And, even pre-2000, the issues were pretty easy for me to resolve (though maybe that was just due to my expertise). The most annoying thing from the 2000s was problems with WiFi dropping on laptops.
But, I'm hoping you're right and they did a serious 'cleaning' and 'fixing' this round of OSs.