Where is Apple's innovative iPad, MacBook Pro hardware to rival Microsoft's Surface?

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  • Reply 41 of 89
    Dan_DilgerDan_Dilger Posts: 1,583member

    k2kw said:
    What’s the purpose of this editorial? Did someone recently write a pro-Microsoft article that bashed Apple? How about writing an Apple editorial instead. Like maybe one saying their laptop line is a bit of a mess right now and the MBA, MB and non-TB MBP should be combined into one device. Or with regards to desktops either update the Mac mini or discontinue it already.
    I was really impressed by how last year DED critisized Microsoft for having a bad Quarter because customers were waiting for a Surface Refresh and this year blasts them when it rebounds.   

    Other than thAt difference seems like this is a retread of editorials from before.

    I will say it again.   TouchBar is a failed innovation.  I’ll believe otherwise when they come out with a Desktop keyboard with Touchbar.   Yes people want the TouchId and Apple Pay or they want the most power the could get so they have to get the TouchBar model.   And the keyboard sucks.   That’s why I bought a 2015 MBP last year.   I just keep hoping that Next year Apple’s next MBP redesign has a keyboard with much more travel.  (It should be a great machine if Intel finally delivers their 10 nm CPUs with LPDDR4)

    If you look at the trend line for Surface over the past 4 years, it has bobbed slightly above and below $1B/Q. Last year showed that new devices didn't create seasonal growth, and this year, what you're calling a "rebound" is hardly cause for celebration. The whole Surface sales chart pretty much speaks for itself. 

    If new data sounds like "a retread," maybe it's because the insight was correct before and still is. Which side were you arguing a year ago? Were you right? 

    TouchBar is a feature that makes MacBook Pros look fancy. It has not slowed Apple's pace of sales. So regardless of your opinion, trying to call Apple's incredible success in premium laptops a failure while making excuses for microsoft's incredibly lack of success over the last ~six years of desperately trying just illuminates that you have a fundamentalist bias you are arguing in the face of facts. You want to believe something that isn't true, and will make up no end of stories explaining that the very wrong data you are pushing is in fact reasonable and probably also true alternative facts. But that's not how things actually work.





      
    macky the mackyalexonlinewatto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 89
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 4,297member
    clexman said:
    You realize that the Surface line was created to demo what Microsoft's platform was capable of, not to take over the laptop and tablet business. For them to make $1B off of sample hardware is pretty impressive.
    That’s what Microsoft fanboys say. When did anyone at Microsoft ever say this? I doubt Panos Panay would call the Surface line sample hardware.
    cornchip
  • Reply 43 of 89
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 4,297member
    clexman said:
    You realize that the Surface line was created to demo what Microsoft's platform was capable of, not to take over the laptop and tablet business. For them to make $1B off of sample hardware is pretty impressive.

    What, exactly, does Surface "demo" that's unique to Windows PCs? And why would Microsoft spend billions of dollars on product development and advertising, call its corporate strategy "devices and services" (not "demos of stuff OEMs should make") merely to show Windows OEMS how to build PCs?

    The idea that Microsoft and Google are not really trying to sell the hardware they are obviously very diligently and desperately trying to sell is so asinine it makes you look incredibly foolish to repeat it. You really think Microsoft built out a retail store network at incredible cost just to show PC makers how they could alternatively create PCs? 

    That's called a "reference design" and Microsoft's been that for decades. Building its own hardware is clearly not a brochure for PC makers. 
    It is a dumb argument but so is the knock on Surface for not being a huge growth business. Neither iPad nor Macs are really growth businesses either.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 44 of 89
    jdw said:  Had Dave Lee not made his YouTube video, and had no one else noticed the throttling, would Apple have solved the problem "within a week"?  I speculate not.
    Dave Lee gets credit for noticing some unusual behavior, but his analysis of that behavior being specific to the i9 and the hardware design was completely wrong. Many, many other pundits and commenters on the internet made the same mistake too. Human error exists everywhere. 
    p-dogradarthekatwatto_cobratht
  • Reply 45 of 89
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 372member
    The difference between Apple and Microsoft is that Apple is a market creator, Microsoft is a follower. 

    The only thing Microsoft has ever created (without stealing the idea from someone) is Clippy. 


    edited July 2018 williamlondonp-dogStrangeDayscornchipwatto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 89
    Microsoft Surface is overrated. You realize this the moment you try to use the device on your lap.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 47 of 89
    Dan_DilgerDan_Dilger Posts: 1,583member

    It is a dumb argument but so is the knock on Surface for not being a huge growth business. Neither iPad nor Macs are really growth businesses either.
    iPad and Mac are both extremely profitable, large businesses that have a commercial impact on the world. 

    Surface is less than 1/10 the revenue, very little profit if any, and has minimal impact on anything. 
    p-dogradarthekatcornchipwatto_cobra
  • Reply 48 of 89
    RobLTRobLT Posts: 2unconfirmed, member
    Interesting editorial. Apple makes great products no question. Microsoft/Samsung mostly copy, no question. Apple is currently the top of the heap, no question. But Microsoft was once on top, Blackberry was on top, IBM was on top, Sony, and so on. Companies become complacent and someone else topples them (Amazon vs Walmart vs Sears in the retail world). Microsoft is actually improving by throwing stuff on the wall and seeing what sticks. IMHO there is an opening.

    Take my case. I use a Macbook, an iPad, an Android phone (I had iPhones until 5). Before I retired, most of my work was OS X based, but I used Parallels since I also needed Windows for certain tasks. The Macbook gave me convergence that I could do all of my work efficiently on one device.  On business trips (and now being retired) I tried to use an iPad for everything but I never have been able to. Thus I always end up with 2 devices, and would really prefer just one. Reading a book or watching a movie on a laptop in bed or an airplane sucks. Doing coding, financial analysis, etc. on a iPad sucks. I want one device for everything.

    I'm actually going to buy a surface go and try it out. Why? because it offers windows, and might provide the convergence I am looking for. I don't mean MS Windows, I mean resizable windows layered on each other that you can see multiple apps at the same time.  Split screen doesn't come close (if it did MS Windows would never have taken over from DR DOS). The sad thing is that Apple has the components to build the perfect converged device. Think about it. OS X on a iPad with mouse support. Need for high powered personal devices is declining. More and more work (and development) is done on cloud based servers. All you need is a window into those services. UX is king, not processing power.
  • Reply 49 of 89
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    Touch screens on laptops remains a bad idea.  

    Microsoft’s OS gymnasts to make the transformer idea work resulted in a poor user experience for everyone.


    I agree with you. I have a Surface Pro 4 issued as my work computer and only use it docked to an external monitor, keyboard and mouse.

    I tried using the touch screen, but it really is non-intuitive. You cannot shoehorn a pointer-based OS to a touch screen and expect it to be great. Like Apple, they need to develop a touch-based UI from the ground up.

    I suppose the same applies to an iPad when I connect a Smart Keyboard, and try to use it as a desktop device.  It's not intuitive and it's awful.  At least that's what Apple said many times. 
    williamlondon
  • Reply 50 of 89
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member

    k2kw said:
    What’s the purpose of this editorial? Did someone recently write a pro-Microsoft article that bashed Apple? How about writing an Apple editorial instead. Like maybe one saying their laptop line is a bit of a mess right now and the MBA, MB and non-TB MBP should be combined into one device. Or with regards to desktops either update the Mac mini or discontinue it already.
    I was really impressed by how last year DED critisized Microsoft for having a bad Quarter because customers were waiting for a Surface Refresh and this year blasts them when it rebounds.   

    Other than thAt difference seems like this is a retread of editorials from before.

    I will say it again.   TouchBar is a failed innovation.  I’ll believe otherwise when they come out with a Desktop keyboard with Touchbar.   Yes people want the TouchId and Apple Pay or they want the most power the could get so they have to get the TouchBar model.   And the keyboard sucks.   That’s why I bought a 2015 MBP last year.   I just keep hoping that Next year Apple’s next MBP redesign has a keyboard with much more travel.  (It should be a great machine if Intel finally delivers their 10 nm CPUs with LPDDR4)
    TouchBar is a feature that makes MacBook Pros look fancy. It has not slowed Apple's pace of sales. So regardless of your opinion, trying to call Apple's incredible success in premium laptops a failure while making excuses for microsoft's incredibly lack of success over the last ~six years of desperately trying just illuminates that you have a fundamentalist bias you are arguing in the face of facts. You want to believe something that isn't true, and will make up no end of stories explaining that the very wrong data you are pushing is in fact reasonable and probably also true alternative facts. But that's not how things actually work. 
    I wouldn't call it lack of success.  Mac's are the only option if you want/need macOS (personally I don't consider Hackintosh an option).  That put Apple in a position to price their devices at a higher cost.  There are no competition in the macOS market.  That's different from Windows PC's, where you have options for major vendors like Dell, HP and Lenovo, and some of their devices are as good or better than what MS offers.  Many people in these forums said that the Surface line would be out of business after a few years, and it didn't happen.  And now they added more devices to their line.  I suppose they are doing something right.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 51 of 89
    vukasikavukasika Posts: 97member
    Confession.  I’m married to Apple but evey now and then I cheat with Microsoft, and I’ve had the IT budget to hide my affairs in the numbers :)

    That said I like the Surface Book, or rather I want to like it.  When the Surface Book 2 came out, I almost bought one. I mean hey its a 15” tablet and a Notebook. However, I had to remind myself that the Surface still underwhelms me as tablet, and most of the world I live in is very mobile. I heard all the folks who fuss about iOS not being a robust enough OS for things like Autocad (though in truth, I have never used Autocad nor and done any video editing). I’m an executive and a clinician. Pretty much everything I need can be done on iOS especially since the iOS 11 update. That said I did get a Surface Book when they first came out.  I could give a bunch of BS reason but the bottom line was light-weight gaming (Civilization 5, Galactic Civilization III, Battlefleet Gothica, etc) nothing that needed a true bleeding edge Windows environment but just Windows.  The Surface Book seemed to answer my needs at first.

    However its pretty much just a laptop.  Yeah you can detach the top and roam around the office for a couple of hours but you run out of juice quickly so to me the tablet feature is more of a gimmick that a real function.  I can roll about all day with my iPad 12.9 and I done need to bleed my phone dry by using it as a hot spot. The Surface Book could never live just as a tablet to me.  Always found myself asking where do I store this darn keyboard if I’m not using it.  The Surface line up (overall) itslef is not a bad one if you ask me, just has a bit of an indentity crisis. What intially pulled my toward the Surface line up was the pen & inking. I know good ole’ Steve Jobs didn’t like stylus but that ingores the segment of the market 30+ years old whole spent their formative years learning via writing and still do most of our thinking and brainstorming in handwriting. I think Windows 10 is a huge improvement over previous verions.  

    I think Apple is on the right track with making iPad more capable of replacing to need for a desktop.  I know some of you hardcore folks will flame me but most users look like me, not you. We surf the web, we read & respond to email, we conference call or video conference, we use basics like word, excel & powerpoint OR pages, numbers & keynote.  I run entire offices with primarily on iPads and in truth most of the over 30 crowd don’t  know enough to max-out the capabilties of an iPad. Each office has 1 iMac and the front desk and each location manager has a 15” Macbook Pro (more a perk than a necessity), everyone else gets everything done on 12.9 iPad Pro’s. I have a 5k iMac at my primary office and the only device I travel with is a 12.9 iPad Pro, when I need a full Mac OS environment which is rare, I use Screens App to remote access my 5k iMac.

    Over the past few years I’m seen Windows make some nice efforts and then just bumble the whole thing.  Windows Phone, Windows RT, It’s App store, even this Windows S stuff feels like yet another thing Microsoft will introduce and then abandon. I give Aplle credit that even though it is not without its own errors, they seem to have mastered the ability to introduce an product and then convince you why the Apple prodcut even if it was not first to the market, is the best choice. Apple seems better at long-game strategies these days whereas Microsoft is looking for a market shift to capitalize on and throughing a lot of spaghetti on the wall in the process.

    Some of my IT infidelity has also involved ... Google. I know, I’m an IT slut don’t judge me.  I mention only because the iPad 12.9 reminds me a lot of the Galaxy Note 12.2  When Samsung released that product, it was in the field completing with the 1st gen Surface and the iPad air. I had all 3 at the time and when I needed to choose which one to keep, the honest truth is that the Galaxy Note 12 became my go to device. It had a stylus, paired with a keyboard AND a mouse, LTE and weighed less that either of the other 2 devices. The haptic feedback for the on-screen keyboard was also amazing. Fast forward 4 years, just 4 years, and the Galaxy Note 12.2 is dead, Andriod is pretty much throwing in the towel on the tablet market, and Apple is kicking butt with a tablets that meets the needs of most casual computer users. Apple doesn’t seem to have a get to market first approach. It seems, to me, a come to market when the time is right and eat everyone else’s lunch approach.


    radarthekatcornchip
  • Reply 52 of 89
    NotsofastNotsofast Posts: 450member
    jmulchino said:
    Yes, a surprising article with some muddled logic (“locker room talk”? Huh?). And the tone is a bit dismissive of Apple’s recent troubles with the i9 processor. (“Non-engineer YouTubers”) Example: In another story published by AI, Apple actually worked with the “non-engineer” to apparently resolve the issue. 

    Most AI readers don’t really care about Samsung, Microsoft, etc. offerings, so why the paranoia? Is it to stifle legitimate criticism by AI readers on Apple? Methinks so. 

    And lastly, where is the updated Mac Mini? Cook promised and update. “It’s in our future” Remember. Which future?
    You lost people when you suggested that Apple relied on the Youtuber's skills to identify and fix the bug when all they did was to work with him to try and reproduce the problem, which he had trouble doing, so they could resolve it. No insult intended towards him, but he obviously had no idea what the problem was or how to fix it, just that he had experienced a problem, which sometimes occurred.  
    radarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 53 of 89
    BleedBlueBleedBlue Posts: 1unconfirmed, member
    So, let's keep making Chevy's since Tesla's are just a fad...
  • Reply 54 of 89
    At first glance, the new Surface Books are somewhat kinda nice.  You can detach the screen and go tablet mode without the keyboard or you can flip it around a fold it back to go tablet bulk mode but have a larger battery (tablet & keyboard has battery).  It sounds nice but in reality it's not used that much.  But because the battery is in the tablet and keyboard it does have crazy battery life.  However, the trackpad sucks, the stylus is nowhere near as precise nor responsive as the Apple Pencil on iPad. The whole Win10 UX is bizarre and weird. Not to mention it's very expensive.

    Ok, so reality check.  I used both the Surface Book and a MacBook Pro and iPad w/Pencil.  I might as well just buy a MacBook Pro and an iPad w/Pencil and be done with it. Switch between the two devices as needed. The whole experience is much nicer.  Holistically speaking, macOS / iOS is so much smoother and more refined and the hardware works so well with it that using Microsoft solutions just feel kludgy and slapped together.  Apple is not perfect but they are so far ahead it is going to take a long time for Microsoft to catch up.  You can see Microsoft in a panic as they do things like port SQL Server to Linux, build in the Linux Subsystem in Win10, add native SSHd / SSH, opened Azure to host Linux, tweaked Server to run headless, open sourced PowerShell and other things. Bought Xamarin so they can develop iOS / Android apps on Windows.  Bought GitHub, etc.  They know they are completely screwed if they don't embrace Cloud.  They are already losing developers to Macs because they play so much better with Unix / Linux.  The only thing that makes sense is all these steps that Microsoft are taking are because Cloud is a major threat to their survival and as such they must adapt and interact if they are to survive.  If Ballmer was still in charge, they would be hurting far more than they are now.  Office 365 Cloud is a big profit for Microsoft.  But they apparently need to play ball with the competitions Cloud solutions.  
    radarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 55 of 89
    jmulchino said:
    Yes, a surprising article with some muddled logic (“locker room talk”? Huh?). And the tone is a bit dismissive of Apple’s recent troubles with the i9 processor. (“Non-engineer YouTubers”) Example: In another story published by AI, Apple actually worked with the “non-engineer” to apparently resolve the issue. 

    Most AI readers don’t really care about Samsung, Microsoft, etc. offerings, so why the paranoia? Is it to stifle legitimate criticism by AI readers on Apple? Methinks so. 

    And lastly, where is the updated Mac Mini? Cook promised and update. “It’s in our future” Remember. Which future?
    You lost bro?

    I enjoyed this editorial piece. And despite your claim, we discuss these brands every week. 

    Please quote when Cook said they’d get you a new mini by. Thanks. 
    Not lost, dude! So why write something snarky about a fellow poster? I’m glad you enjoyed the editorial. Does that mean I can’t post a dissenting opinion without the snark? And just Google “Cook” and “Mac Mini” and you’ll find your answer. I’d love a new Mac Mini. 
    elijahgwilliamlondon
  • Reply 56 of 89

    What’s the purpose of this editorial? Did someone recently write a pro-Microsoft article that bashed Apple? How about writing an Apple editorial instead. Like maybe one saying their laptop line is a bit of a mess right now and the MBA, MB and non-TB MBP should be combined into one device. Or with regards to desktops either update the Mac mini or discontinue it already.
    What’s the purpose of your whining every time DED publishes a new editorial in his regular column? You sound insecure.
    I hate it when posters accuse other posters of “whining”. That is what the Comments section is for. You are confusing criticism with whining. So let me ask this question: are you one of those who worships everything Apple does and blindly agree with everything Apple does?
    singularityelijahgwilliamlondonavon b7
  • Reply 57 of 89
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    At first glance, the new Surface Books are somewhat kinda nice.  You can detach the screen and go tablet mode without the keyboard or you can flip it around a fold it back to go tablet bulk mode but have a larger battery (tablet & keyboard has battery).  It sounds nice but in reality it's not used that much.  But because the battery is in the tablet and keyboard it does have crazy battery life.  However, the trackpad sucks, the stylus is nowhere near as precise nor responsive as the Apple Pencil on iPad. The whole Win10 UX is bizarre and weird. Not to mention it's very expensive.
    I have a SP4, and have use a Surface Book, and the trackpad are the best in Windows devices, and very close to Macbook Pros.  Definitely it do not sucks, as you said.  For some reason, you didn't compare keyboards quality, which is as important as the trackpad, but I suppose you won't go there. 

    I haven't tried the latest Pen or Pencil in the latest devices, but from what I have read both are very good.  In my experience, the Surface Pen with the eraser makes a big difference for note taking (as I do frequently) compared to the Pencil.  A part from that, it looks like the Pencil have the advantage for drawing.

    On Windows 10UX, I think it's a matter of preference, and pricing, is not far off of other high end models.

    Ok, so reality check.  I used both the Surface Book and a MacBook Pro and iPad w/Pencil.  I might as well just buy a MacBook Pro and an iPad w/Pencil and be done with it. Switch between the two devices as needed. The whole experience is much nicer.  Holistically speaking, macOS / iOS is so much smoother and more refined and the hardware works so well with it that using Microsoft solutions just feel kludgy and slapped together.  Apple is not perfect but they are so far ahead it is going to take a long time for Microsoft to catch up.  
    There are cases like yours, where two devices is a better experience, while for other is a compromise.  And there are cases where a Surface does better than an Apple device.  For example, like when you add a Smart Keyboard to an iPad. For years Apple have been critic of touchscreen notebooks, but that's the experience you have with an iPad + Smart Keyboard.  Compare that to a Surface Pro, where you can use it as a tablet, or as a laptop with trackpad, the way a it's suppose to be, or at least that's what Apple said.  So it looks like MS is not playing catch up as you said.

     You can see Microsoft in a panic as they do things like port SQL Server to Linux, build in the Linux Subsystem in Win10, add native SSHd / SSH, opened Azure to host Linux, tweaked Server to run headless, open sourced PowerShell and other things. Bought Xamarin so they can develop iOS / Android apps on Windows.  Bought GitHub, etc.  They know they are completely screwed if they don't embrace Cloud.  They are already losing developers to Macs because they play so much better with Unix / Linux.  The only thing that makes sense is all these steps that Microsoft are taking are because Cloud is a major threat to their survival and as such they must adapt and interact if they are to survive.  If Ballmer was still in charge, they would be hurting far more than they are now.  Office 365 Cloud is a big profit for Microsoft.  But they apparently need to play ball with the competitions Cloud solutions.

    Definitely MS has change recently, and it has been good for business, and the list you mentioned are good examples.  For some reason, you said it's panic.  Did you think the same from Apple when they released Apple Music for Android, or when the release iTunes in the Windows App Store?  You call it panic, I call it growing your business.

    edited July 2018 williamlondon
  • Reply 58 of 89
    farmboyfarmboy Posts: 152member
    danvm said:

    The PC market is very hard, and it's saturated.  Even Apple, that have been there for +30 years, still far behind HP, Dell and Lenovo.  I don't think it has to do with reliability or customer support.  
    Ahh...JD Power. The first name in mystical rather than statistical methodology and rankings.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 59 of 89
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 1,396member
    ..
    Ok, so reality check.  I used both the Surface Book and a MacBook Pro and iPad w/Pencil.  I might as well just buy a MacBook Pro and an iPad w/Pencil and be done with it. Switch between the two devices as needed. The whole experience is much nicer.  Holistically speaking, macOS / iOS is so much smoother and more refined and the hardware works so well with it that using Microsoft solutions just feel kludgy and slapped together.  ...  
    This is the essence of it. MS Windows and Surface are trying too hard to put everything into a single device and to be all things to all people. The result is too often a single inelegant device that's not as good as either of the separate items. It seems like it ought to be brilliant, but it ends up just being "kludgy."

    Think of all the attempts to make a single vehicle that works as both a car and an airplane. It's a nifty concept, but the execution is, so far, always disappointing. As a car it's impractical, uncomfortable, and won't fit in your garage, and as an airplane, it's slow, hard to maneuver, has a small passenger compartment, and has a range not much better than a car. So it seems like it would be nice to go downstairs, pack the family into the flying car, zip across the country and upon arrival, skip the rental, but still be able to tool around town. But no, the flying cars so far are just expensive proofs that you could do it, sort of, but probably wouldn't want to.
    p-dogradarthekatwilliamlondoncornchipwatto_cobra
  • Reply 60 of 89
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    AppleZulu said:
    ..
    Ok, so reality check.  I used both the Surface Book and a MacBook Pro and iPad w/Pencil.  I might as well just buy a MacBook Pro and an iPad w/Pencil and be done with it. Switch between the two devices as needed. The whole experience is much nicer.  Holistically speaking, macOS / iOS is so much smoother and more refined and the hardware works so well with it that using Microsoft solutions just feel kludgy and slapped together.  ...  
    This is the essence of it. MS Windows and Surface are trying too hard to put everything into a single device and to be all things to all people. The result is too often a single inelegant device that's not as good as either of the separate items. It seems like it ought to be brilliant, but it ends up just being "kludgy."

    Think of all the attempts to make a single vehicle that works as both a car and an airplane. It's a nifty concept, but the execution is, so far, always disappointing. As a car it's impractical, uncomfortable, and won't fit in your garage, and as an airplane, it's slow, hard to maneuver, has a small passenger compartment, and has a range not much better than a car. So it seems like it would be nice to go downstairs, pack the family into the flying car, zip across the country and upon arrival, skip the rental, but still be able to tool around town. But no, the flying cars so far are just expensive proofs that you could do it, sort of, but probably wouldn't want to.
    Do you think the same when using an iPad with the Smart Keyboard with a touch screen in a vertical position?
    williamlondon
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