2019 iPhone sticking with Face ID, but Android moving to in-screen fingerprint sensors

Posted:
in iPhone edited September 2018
Unsurprisingly, Apple does not plan to integrate fingerprint sensors under the screen of its 2019 iPhone, leaving the field open for Android adoption.




In a note seen by AppleInsider, Ming-Chi Kuo of TF International securities believes that Apple has left Touch ID behind for full-screen iPhones, at least in the near term. Reasons cited include little backlash from Face ID on the iPhone X, as well as higher than expected "user feedback" to the inclusion of fingerprint sensors under the screen of the Vivo X21.

Android manufacturers seem likely to jump on it as a differentiating factor, despite the middling response to it on the X21. Additionally, existing facial recognition systems on Android devices aren't as secure as Apple's implementation, and have been fooled by photographs.

Kuo expects that the Samsung Galaxy S10 in the spring of 2019 will adopt a fingerprint sensor embedded in the screen.

In 2017, Kuo expected yearly shipments of Android devices equipped with 3D sensing components to outnumber those with under-display optical recognition by two or three times over the next two to three years.

"3D sensing not only enables facial recognition in security applications and allows users to create fun expressions like Apple's Animoji, on a more important level, it is a key factor in the development of AR," Kuo wrote. "We therefore believe brand vendors are willing to spend more for related components."

This year, the analyst is expecting the fingerprint under display technology to grow 500 percent year-over-year through 2019, meaning to only about 15 million units in total, based on an estimate of 3 million X21 sales to date.

Wider adoption is expected with time, given maturation of the fingerprint sensing technology, and the relatively lower cost of implementation versus a secure depth-mapping facial recognition system.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 66
    nunzynunzy Posts: 662member
    If TouchID was so great Apple would use it. Clearly FaceID is better.
    racerhomie3lolliverguscatredgeminipa
  • Reply 2 of 66
    davendaven Posts: 543member
    Can you use screen touch ID through a screen protector?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 66
    ivladivlad Posts: 740member
    daven said:
    Can you use screen touch ID through a screen protector?
    I don't see why not, it's just a shallow camera pointing up looking at the finger.
  • Reply 4 of 66
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 4,656member
    The fact that Apple jumped over through the screen touchID tells me there is some short of flaw in the technology which apple was not able to over come and everyone else decide to just ignore and let the users deal with it. I am think that you have to give up some level of display/image quality to make it work.

    I also believe competitors are not going the face ID route since it is a very hard software and hardware problem to solve, Apple owns most of the IP (China will shameless steal it), lastly Apple is controlling most of the supply chain for the part to make it work, there is no capacity to supply parts to other companies. We are probably still a year or more away until more capacity is online.
    lkruppronncornchiplolliverguscatredgeminipawatto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 66
    ivladivlad Posts: 740member
    I would be surprised if Apple brought touchID back. Historically, once Apple is done with piece of technology and moved on, they are done with it for good. Plus, it might not be superior technology to current implementation of touchID. The button shape guided the user's finger. On blank screen, how would the user find, place the finger in the right area? Especially in the dark? I think that's why Apple didn't move to this implementation.
    ronncornchiplolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 6 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,876member
    So...what, exactly?

    “as well as adequately positive user response to the inclusion on the Vivo X21.

    Android manufacturers seem likely to jump on it as a differentiating factor, despite the poor response to it on the X21”

    What is is being referred to here? Does the X21 include a face recognition system (as the first part sort of hints at) and a behind the screen touch (as the second part sort of hints at) or are both referring to the same thing? Because if it’s the latter, it makes no sense whatsoever.
    edited September 2018 ronnlolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 66
    BebeBebe Posts: 122member
    I love TouchID and still use it with my iPhone 6S+ that I use occasionally.  Before FaceID, I said to myself that I never buy an iPhone without TouchID.  With theiPhone X, my perception changed.  Looking forward to the new "iPhone XS" ... of course with FaceID.
    ronnlolliverguscatredgeminipawatto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 66
    claire1claire1 Posts: 510unconfirmed, member
    They couldn't even get fake Touch ID working on solid buttons..... so WHY?

    ivlad said:
    I would be surprised if Apple brought touchID back. Historically, once Apple is done with piece of technology and moved on, they are done with it for good. Plus, it might not be superior technology to current implementation of touchID. The button shape guided the user's finger. On blank screen, how would the user find, place the finger in the right area? Especially in the dark? I think that's why Apple didn't move to this implementation.
    Buttons don't matter if Apple got the entire screen to sense your fingerprint.

    As far as activating TouchID in an all-screen iPhone, I figured 3D Touch would solve that problem and it feels very natural.

    maestro64 said:

    I also believe competitors are not going the face ID route since it is a very hard software and hardware problem to solve, Apple owns most of the IP (China will shameless steal it), lastly Apple is controlling most of the supply chain for the part to make it work, there is no capacity to supply parts to other companies. We are probably still a year or more away until more capacity is online.

    TouchID was also hard but that didn't stop them from making crappy implementations.


    ivlad said:
    daven said:
    Can you use screen touch ID through a screen protector?
    I don't see why not, it's just a shallow camera pointing up looking at the finger.

    Even worse than I though....
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 66
    bb-15bb-15 Posts: 268member
    maestro64 said:
    The fact that Apple jumped over through the screen touchID tells me there is some short of flaw in the technology which apple was not able to over come and everyone else decide to just ignore and let the users deal with it. I am think that you have to give up some level of display/image quality to make it work.

    I also believe competitors are not going the face ID route since it is a very hard software and hardware problem to solve...
    Agreed. Under the screen fingerprint readers are at a very early stage. There’s the expense of the tech, its speed and probably reliability issues.
    * It’s telling that Samsung, which loads its phones with features, hasn’t yet used through the screen fingerprint readers.
    muthuk_vanalingamronncornchiplolliverguscatredgeminipawatto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 66
    I live near Melbourne, FL and I still see job postings for the local Apple group that came from AuthenTec. So I assume they must still do some development in the field.
    Carnageredgeminipawatto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 66
    Crack your screen, and urrrrrr-out!!
    anton zuykovronndavgregcornchipwatto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 66
    Android manufacturers are stuck with fingerprint ID since they can’t make 3D face unlocking work. It’s not like they have a choice. 
    edited September 2018 macplusplusjbdragonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 66
    cpsrocpsro Posts: 2,487member
    We'll see if the screen sensor is secure enough to be sanctioned by the EMV consortium (Eurocard/MasterCard/VISA) for monetary transactions. The new druid phones might retain the old backside sensor for monetary transactions and use the screen sensor for convenience, just like they've had facial recognition for convenience but couldn't use it for monetary transactions because the druid implementations aren't secure enough.

    ronnwatto_cobra
  • Reply 14 of 66
    nunzy said:
    If TouchID was so great Apple would use it. Clearly FaceID is better.
    Indeed. Touch ID has a 1 in 50,000 chance of someone's finger unlocking your phone. For Face ID it is 1 in 1,000,000 for someone's face unlocking your phone. Apple aren't going to go backwards.
    ronnnunzyStrangeDayslolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 15 of 66
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 4,699member
    After upgrading to an iPhoneX back in April, FaceID is just a superior tech over TouchID.  I certainly wouldn't go back.  

    It will be funny to see how botched Android and their iKnockoff manufacturers will make an under-screen finger sensor work.

    ronnbigbillygoatgruffmike1lolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 66
    I greatly prefer TouchID for two reasons. I travel and take photos both of people in natural activity by turning on and using the camera feature without looking at it, or photos in museums where I am not supposed to. Plus I can at other times turn it on when I don’t need to see the screen. Looks like I will hold on to my iPhone 8plus for a long time. Bummer.
    macplusplus
  • Reply 17 of 66
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,188member
    melgross said:
    So...what, exactly?

    “as well as adequately positive user response to the inclusion on the Vivo X21.

    Android manufacturers seem likely to jump on it as a differentiating factor, despite the poor response to it on the X21”

    What is is being referred to here? Does the X21 include a face recognition system (as the first part sort of hints at) and a behind the screen touch (as the second part sort of hints at) or are both referring to the same thing? Because if it’s the latter, it makes no sense whatsoever.
    I've only read this piece once but I got the same impression. Probably an editing mishap.

    On the wider subject, I think we're already on the second or third generation of in screen sensors. Obviously a lot of progress is being made and It would definitely be useful for lower priced Android phones at some point. Currently, most phones with in-screen sensors also have rear placed sensors (my personal fave) and lots have convenience Face Unlock systems and although the article mentions being able to spoof a 2D system with a photo, the link actually goes back to a S8 case. Has the S9 been spoofed with a photo? Or any other modern 2D system?

    As for 3D depth sensing. Hasn't Xiaomi already released one? I thought they had a basic Infrared 3D system as well as a complete system.
  • Reply 18 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,876member
    avon b7 said:
    melgross said:
    So...what, exactly?

    “as well as adequately positive user response to the inclusion on the Vivo X21.

    Android manufacturers seem likely to jump on it as a differentiating factor, despite the poor response to it on the X21”

    What is is being referred to here? Does the X21 include a face recognition system (as the first part sort of hints at) and a behind the screen touch (as the second part sort of hints at) or are both referring to the same thing? Because if it’s the latter, it makes no sense whatsoever.
    I've only read this piece once but I got the same impression. Probably an editing mishap.

    On the wider subject, I think we're already on the second or third generation of in screen sensors. Obviously a lot of progress is being made and It would definitely be useful for lower priced Android phones at some point. Currently, most phones with in-screen sensors also have rear placed sensors (my personal fave) and lots have convenience Face Unlock systems and although the article mentions being able to spoof a 2D system with a photo, the link actually goes back to a S8 case. Has the S9 been spoofed with a photo? Or any other modern 2D system?

    As for 3D depth sensing. Hasn't Xiaomi already released one? I thought they had a basic Infrared 3D system as well as a complete system.
    We’ll see if they surreptitiously change it later.

    behind the screen sensors have a lot of problems to work through. Apple’s Touch ID is about 550ppi. That’s pretty high. Doing that through several layers of screen, considering what it has to read through, ain’t no joke. They may never be as accurate, because they may never be able to use such a high Rez through all of those transistors and capacitors and wiring in those layers. Then, the sensor is a ways from the finger, causing blurring, which makes it worse. So the question is whether this is a worthwhile technology or not. As a marketing feature, I suppose, but as a working security feature, very likely not.

    i also don’t like fingerprint sensors on the back. They’re there mostly because these OEM’s couldn’t place them on the front, and people got used to it. But you have to pick the phone up to use it which is very annoying when it’s on a surface in front of you, and the lens still gets smeared often enough.

    you can’t spoof Apple’s Face ID with a photo. Samsung’s, and others who use a face system are doing people a disservice if they let those people think it’s secure. It’s nothing more than a convenience feature, as you say, which is very dangerous if you have it turned on. They’ve all been spoofed with a photo. You can’t do it with 2D and expect any kind of security. We did it at my house one Friday when I have friends over in the afternoon. one has has a Samsung 9 Edge , or whatever they’re calling it now. I took a pic with my iphone 7+, and WiFi’d it to my networked laser printer, and opened his phone with it. We were going to play around it with Photoshop to see how far from the original pic we could get before it didn’t work, but frankly, it bored us already.

    i don’t know what Xiaomi has, or doesn’t have. When it’s on a real phone, that is being sold through general outlets, then I’ll care.
    edited September 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 19 of 66
    ivlad said:
    I would be surprised if Apple brought touchID back. Historically, once Apple is done with piece of technology and moved on, they are done with it for good. Plus, it might not be superior technology to current implementation of touchID. The button shape guided the user's finger. On blank screen, how would the user find, place the finger in the right area? Especially in the dark? I think that's why Apple didn't move to this implementation.
    Couldn’t they just use the pixels in the display to highlight the spot?
    sflocal said:
    After upgrading to an iPhoneX back in April, FaceID is just a superior tech over TouchID.  I certainly wouldn't go back.  
    My experience with FaceID has been far superior, as well.  I’ll be on the first wave of the iPad and MacBook Pro that adopts FaceID. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 20 of 66
    nunzy said:
    If TouchID was so great Apple would use it. Clearly FaceID is better.
    No it is not better. More expensive, but with more potential for trouble.

    If the digital map of your face gets hacked, do you have another to replace it with? People have 10 digits but only one face.

    Apple is changing stuff just to be changing stuff these days and FaceID is the answer to a question few were asking. If they doubt pushback, wait until people have to pay for that overpriced technology that they do not want. I would not pay $1k for a cell phone if you gave me the money to buy it.
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