These forums should be for good technical debate, not one-sided arguments stating mostly the obvious. Obviously there is rationale for the other side but nobody on this forum is expressing it. So I will.
Here's one question of interest: Apple's product's users are from America and a wide variety of other countries, many of which are hostile to the US. Do all of Apple's customers require the same degree of privacy? Is it technically possible for Apple to build, or for the US government to require, different levels of security for users in different countries? Or do all users all over the world expect and get maximum privacy and security from US products? E.g., should Apple product users in Iran or ISIS get unbreakable cryptographic protection with no key escrow? Is Apple morally right to provide high grade privacy to its users everywhere equally?
This is just one issue of interest. There are other interesting questions. Too bad this forum doesn't raise any of the thought provoking issues. What websiet must I visit to find the interesting issues debated?
yes, no, yes, yes, yes...
don’t think about scary iranian and ISIS militants, think about prodemocracy critics in authoritarian countries...they need to combat all that Google-provided eavesdropping.
they have as much right to encryption as those of us struggling with our first world problems
I think that tech companies are going to find that they are NOT larger than government interests.
Along with their censorship, techs seem to think they answer to no other authority. Unless it is worth dollars as in China.
When it involves hard cold cash, your privacy doesn't take a back seat, it's dumped along side the road.
All Five Eyes needs do is make a revenue arrangement and all your data will be cheerfully delivered.
They are bigger than Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the UK.
Scream about your privacy all you want to. Wag your tongues at the "evil" western governments you suffer and struggle under. These are typical responses from anonymous freedom fighters on the Internet who will opine and rage but not take direct action. Guess what? it's coming and there's nothing you can or will do about it. Why is that? Because nobody cares. We in the U.S. put our fellow citizens in concentration camps because we were afraid. Ask George Takei how that happened.
The sad part is that there is something we could do about it, but aren't (and you're probably right, won't). And, at least there was once arguably something to be afraid of (doesn't necessarily justify it, but there was a reason). Today, it's a combination of apathy, superficiality, and distractedness, driven by mostly propaganda.
22july2013 said: Here's one question of interest: Apple's product's users are from America and a wide variety of other countries, many of which are hostile to the US. Do all of Apple's customers require the same degree of privacy? Is it technically possible for Apple to build, or for the US government to require, different levels of security for users in different countries? Or do all users all over the world expect and get maximum privacy and security from US products? E.g., should Apple product users in Iran or ISIS get unbreakable cryptographic protection with no key escrow? Is Apple morally right to provide high grade privacy to its users everywhere equally?
Are we talking subjective or objective morality?
s.metcalf said: Why "exception of Canada and NZ"? They are willing and active participants in this and have been for a long time. Just cause they don't currently have conservative government doesn't mean that was always the case or will always be the case. Unfortunately all major parties in these countries support ever increasing mass surveillance.
I'm not sure what this has to do with having a conservative government or not. The implementation might be a bit different when at the extremes, but either have a similar tendency. The big problem, is that aside from the USA (and increasingly not so there anymore either), there is no foundation to backup a free and just society. And, in the USA, it seems few care anymore about those foundations (i.e.: postmodern living document baloney).
SpamSandwich said: Our US government exists because of the people, not the other way around. We are the ones who have given the States permission to form a Federal government and at some point in the future we may decide to end that agreement.
And, we're readily trying to change that (i.e. give the gov't more power and remove the ability of the people to control it.).
Crap, I am so pissed off. They already have access to our Twitter, FB, Google, iCloud data and access to location data. What more do they want???
No they don't. Well they don't have any Twitter, FB or Google data of mine because don't use them (or in the case of Google, only enough to get websites to work). As for iCloud... there is nothing of importance on there and certainly nothing incriminating. All my iDevices get backed up locally. Some of us have already taken steps to safeguard our data and our lives from government snoopers.
rotateleftbyte said: No they don't. Well they don't have any Twitter, FB or Google data of mine because don't use them (or in the case of Google, only enough to get websites to work). As for iCloud... there is nothing of importance on there and certainly nothing incriminating. All my iDevices get backed up locally.
Some of us have already taken steps to safeguard our data and our lives from government snoopers.
I think this roughly falls in the 'I have nothing to hide' camp. The problem is with what is considered incriminating. You might think you currently have nothing to hide, but as times change, you might. I used to think I had nothing to hide too, but as my political, religious, etc. thoughts are now coming into conflict with the thought police, that is no longer the case. And, while the government might not be directly prosecuting (or persecuting) people for all of them yet, as we've seen, the powers that be can just make the info public and propagandize the mindless hordes to bully everyone/everything that will impact you into compliance.
As an American, I am getting real sick of other Americans thinking they have a right to spy on me. Being a politician makes you a SERVANT of the people. Not an overlord.
Crap, I am so pissed off. They already have access to our Twitter, FB, Google, iCloud data and access to location data. What more do they want???
No they don't. Well they don't have any Twitter, FB or Google data of mine because don't use them (or in the case of Google, only enough to get websites to work). As for iCloud... there is nothing of importance on there and certainly nothing incriminating. All my iDevices get backed up locally. Some of us have already taken steps to safeguard our data and our lives from government snoopers.
You know how we proved blackholes existed because of how they affected the space around them despite not actually “seeing” them?
I think FB and Google, at the very least, not only know you exist but have a pretty good idea about your demographics because of public data and all your friends and family that have given them your contact data and other info over the years.
Have you ever looked to see what’s available on you from Peek You, Family Tree Now, and other such sites? They have opt-out options but they still likely have your data and they’ll be hacked and/or sell it to others, but they also got it from some place, too. Crazy times we live in.
Apple has gotten much better about data privacy. Even if Apple never used your personal data to monetize in the way Google and FB do, their security of their OSea and what apps could freely access has changed dramatically over just the last decade… and I’d like to see more.
To my chagrin, I would keep account numbers for business contacts in my Address Book (before I had a 1Password vault) as a note and/or part of the phone number with commas and semicolons for pauses and waits for added convenience when making a call. For example, if I call a credit card’s 800 number Is have my entire card’s CC number in there that I would get toned dialed as soon as the automated prompt would ask for it I have no idea how many apps could’ve had access to that, but it’s also a moot point now because those card numbers are all defunct and I was part of Experian breach because, well, I exist.
PS: I wouldn't be surprised if there are sophisticated programs that analyze your writing patterns to determine is someone is the same user because we can create unlimited online accounts that are virtually anonymous. I can imagine such a system looking at sentence structure, punctuation, words and phrases (which includes idioms, colloquialisms, and abbreviations), length of of sentences, pronouns, and every other grammatical style in order to look for patterns of people that may try to use different usernames across different accounts and IP addresses in order to hide their identity.
Several years ago I took a hiatus from this site (and other social media) as I'm wont to do from time to time, but when I came back I decided to run a little experiment; I created a new account but decided to write as I usually do to see if anyone recognized my "voice." As I recall, @anantksundaram picked up on it right away and sent me a PM to confirm.
Such a system would probably not be limited to finding a digital "voice" of an individual, but could also be used to determine education level, approximate age, geographical area in which you grew up with what is probably just a few simple metrics. For example, if you remember watching Sigmund the Sea Monster as a kid and drinking pop then it's pretty unlikely that you're in your 20s and from Long Beach, CA.
flaneur said: One semi-technical area of debate not yet covered here, or left unstated: How does your phone differ from your filing cabinet, your closet, your car, your safe -- all of which are open for inspection by investigators with a warrant?
The government can have access to my filing cabinet. However, if I use a cipher for all my files and the only place where the cipher is kept is my head, then the government looks at funny sounding words on paper.
The same as the government can take my phone but not force me to remember my passcode.
There is no security without full, complete end2end encryption. And as other said, as soon as it becomes public that any government can have access to all your communication, those that require privacy, like corporations and crime organisations will go for their own proprietary encryption and just make an app for communication.
I think that tech companies are going to find that they are NOT larger than government interests.
Along with their censorship, techs seem to think they answer to no other authority. Unless it is worth dollars as in China.
When it involves hard cold cash, your privacy doesn't take a back seat, it's dumped along side the road.
All Five Eyes needs do is make a revenue arrangement and all your data will be cheerfully delivered.
As an American, I am getting real sick of other Americans thinking they have a right to spy on me. Being a politician makes you a SERVANT of the people. Not an overlord.
But you can't and won't do anything about it. You'll just post about your anger and that's it. And that's the real problem. We have the government we deserve. We voted for these people and it's our fault, period. We want our privacy but we don't want to be inconvenienced by it.
"It is an established principle that appropriate government authorities should be able to seek access to otherwise private information when a court or independent authority has authorized such access based on established legal standards. The same principles have long permitted government authorities to search homes, vehicles, and personal effects with valid legal authority."
Instead of breaking encryption, would it be naive to consider the possibility of legislation that results in the incarceration of people who refuse to allow legally authorized access?
Fascinating. This is highly political, yet comments are not banned. I'm pleased of course, but it does lead one to wonder what "algorithm" is used to determine what is politically OK and what is not for Comments to be unlocked.
United States, United Kingdom, New Zealand, Canada, and Australia… These are the "Five Eyes" of the "Echelon" data surveillance, retrieval and interpretation establishment . Together they undermine the democratic process and influence social thinking along lines of nationalism. They claim to act in the interests of their citizens and national security whereas they operate a fascistic envelope over everyones' limited freedom of speech and expression. This is managed by a member state surveilling all the communications of one of the other member states; thus avoiding their own legal systems which were disingenuously thought up to lull populations into a false sense of security.
This is so timely… Mojave is killing off "Back to my Mac" and in doing so Apple is opening up computer - computer networking software to potentially nefarious developers, the most successful of which will probably be government sponsored by one of the Five Eyes. They will be given carte blanch to wander freely about the data stored on all our computational devices and the freedom to do it protected by government NDA's and undemocratic legal structures like the UK's RIPA (snoopers charter).
By giving Five Eyes everything they have been falsely claiming is necessary for the Security Services to ensure national security, Apple, in a stroke, has abnegated all responsibilities it claimed were of paramount importance by relinquishing the preservation of their customers' privacy and basic human rights.
Apple has been Trumped. We, their customers, have been the subject of a profound betrayal.
Let us not install Mojave until Apple reinstate Back to my Mac and provide all its customers with secure networking tools free from backdoors and unlocked windows.
I don't use it, so maybe someone here could set up a Facebook Protest Page and hope it attracts sufficient attention for Apple to realise it cannot wilfully expose its customers to third-party apps made to look like Back to my Mac substitutes when really they are bridges and walkways.
Crap, I am so pissed off. They already have access to our Twitter, FB, Google, iCloud data and access to location data. What more do they want???
They also have hacked SIM cards and commonly use Stingrays to suck up data without a warrant on whole geographic areas.
What the law enforcement and intelligence agencies want is a 1984 tele screen in your pocket with a back door so they can let you self incriminate yourself 24/7/365. The other risk is that with a back door, crap could be planted on your devices if they ever need a reason to discredit you.
flaneur said: One semi-technical area of debate not yet covered here, or left unstated: How does your phone differ from your filing cabinet, your closet, your car, your safe -- all of which are open for inspection by investigators with a warrant?
The government can have access to my filing cabinet. However, if I use a cipher for all my files and the only place where the cipher is kept is my head, then the government looks at funny sounding words on paper.
The same as the government can take my phone but not force me to remember my passcode.
There is no security without full, complete end2end encryption. And as other said, as soon as it becomes public that any government can have access to all your communication, those that require privacy, like corporations and crime organisations will go for their own proprietary encryption and just make an app for communication.
In the UK the state have RIPA (The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act). This can and is used widely to surveil and hold people without arrest. No one is allowed to publish or even speak with anyone (including your Lawyer, Family, Spouse) about a RIPA investigation when government agencies: Police, SAS, Army, RAF, NAVY, GCHQ (MI5/6) are using RIPA in an investigation. Everyone is subject to the most severe charge of Contempt of Court and is more than likely to serve a lengthy prison sentence for breaking silence. US, Australian, Canadian, British and other countries can have citizens extradited in complete secrecy using RIPA.
RIPA is used as a complete, total, cover up by investigatory bodies. British police or intelligence officers could well be holding American subjects in the UK using RIPA. No one will be allowed to publicise this form of rendition. Our "Free Press" is utterly forbidden to publish any details of a RIPA investigation until sanctioned by the Crown Courts.
The UK government (as part of Five Eyes) are looking to strengthen RIPA and fully protect all participating governments from chinks in the current legislation. Google RIPA to see what Apple could be exposing its customers to in the near future.
Our governments are terrified of the WWW, especially after Western governments created so much unrest in the ME it sparked the 2010 Arab Spring which still resonates today.
These forums should be for good technical debate, not one-sided arguments stating mostly the obvious. Obviously there is rationale for the other side but nobody on this forum is expressing it. So I will.
Here's one question of interest: Apple's product's users are from America and a wide variety of other countries, many of which are hostile to the US. Do all of Apple's customers require the same degree of privacy? Is it technically possible for Apple to build, or for the US government to require, different levels of security for users in different countries? Or do all users all over the world expect and get maximum privacy and security from US products? E.g., should Apple product users in Iran or ISIS get unbreakable cryptographic protection with no key escrow? Is Apple morally right to provide high grade privacy to its users everywhere equally?
This is just one issue of interest. There are other interesting questions. Too bad this forum doesn't raise any of the thought provoking issues. What websiet must I visit to find the interesting issues debated?
Here is a “thought provoking” issue: if a criminal needs to encrypt criminal data he will do that. You cannot prevent that by law or by any “backdoor”. The organizers of those meetings are well aware of that. That backdoor issue is a cover...
Comments
don’t think about scary iranian and ISIS militants, think about prodemocracy critics in authoritarian countries...they need to combat all that Google-provided eavesdropping.
they have as much right to encryption as those of us struggling with our first world problems
Are we talking subjective or objective morality?
I'm not sure what this has to do with having a conservative government or not. The implementation might be a bit different when at the extremes, but either have a similar tendency. The big problem, is that aside from the USA (and increasingly not so there anymore either), there is no foundation to backup a free and just society. And, in the USA, it seems few care anymore about those foundations (i.e.: postmodern living document baloney).
And, we're readily trying to change that (i.e. give the gov't more power and remove the ability of the people to control it.).
Some of us have already taken steps to safeguard our data and our lives from government snoopers.
I think FB and Google, at the very least, not only know you exist but have a pretty good idea about your demographics because of public data and all your friends and family that have given them your contact data and other info over the years.
Have you ever looked to see what’s available on you from Peek You, Family Tree Now, and other such sites? They have opt-out options but they still likely have your data and they’ll be hacked and/or sell it to others, but they also got it from some place, too. Crazy times we live in.
Apple has gotten much better about data privacy. Even if Apple never used your personal data to monetize in the way Google and FB do, their security of their OSea and what apps could freely access has changed dramatically over just the last decade… and I’d like to see more.
To my chagrin, I would keep account numbers for business contacts in my Address Book (before I had a 1Password vault) as a note and/or part of the phone number with commas and semicolons for pauses and waits for added convenience when making a call. For example, if I call a credit card’s 800 number Is have my entire card’s CC number in there that I would get toned dialed as soon as the automated prompt would ask for it I have no idea how many apps could’ve had access to that, but it’s also a moot point now because those card numbers are all defunct and I was part of Experian breach because, well, I exist.
PS: I wouldn't be surprised if there are sophisticated programs that analyze your writing patterns to determine is someone is the same user because we can create unlimited online accounts that are virtually anonymous. I can imagine such a system looking at sentence structure, punctuation, words and phrases (which includes idioms, colloquialisms, and abbreviations), length of of sentences, pronouns, and every other grammatical style in order to look for patterns of people that may try to use different usernames across different accounts and IP addresses in order to hide their identity.
Several years ago I took a hiatus from this site (and other social media) as I'm wont to do from time to time, but when I came back I decided to run a little experiment; I created a new account but decided to write as I usually do to see if anyone recognized my "voice." As I recall, @anantksundaram picked up on it right away and sent me a PM to confirm.
Such a system would probably not be limited to finding a digital "voice" of an individual, but could also be used to determine education level, approximate age, geographical area in which you grew up with what is probably just a few simple metrics. For example, if you remember watching Sigmund the Sea Monster as a kid and drinking pop then it's pretty unlikely that you're in your 20s and from Long Beach, CA.
However, if I use a cipher for all my files and the only place where the cipher is kept is my head, then the government looks at funny sounding words on paper.
The same as the government can take my phone but not force me to remember my passcode.
There is no security without full, complete end2end encryption.
And as other said, as soon as it becomes public that any government can have access to all your communication, those that require privacy, like corporations and crime organisations will go for their own proprietary encryption and just make an app for communication.
Instead of breaking encryption, would it be naive to consider the possibility of legislation that results in the incarceration of people who refuse to allow legally authorized access?
"Privacy not absolute: US among consortium of nations calling for encryption back doors"
I filed that under no shit, Sherlock.
This is so timely… Mojave is killing off "Back to my Mac" and in doing so Apple is opening up computer - computer networking software to potentially nefarious developers, the most successful of which will probably be government sponsored by one of the Five Eyes. They will be given carte blanch to wander freely about the data stored on all our computational devices and the freedom to do it protected by government NDA's and undemocratic legal structures like the UK's RIPA (snoopers charter).
By giving Five Eyes everything they have been falsely claiming is necessary for the Security Services to ensure national security, Apple, in a stroke, has abnegated all responsibilities it claimed were of paramount importance by relinquishing the preservation of their customers' privacy and basic human rights.
Apple has been Trumped. We, their customers, have been the subject of a profound betrayal.
I don't use it, so maybe someone here could set up a Facebook Protest Page and hope it attracts sufficient attention for Apple to realise it cannot wilfully expose its customers to third-party apps made to look like Back to my Mac substitutes when really they are bridges and walkways.
What the law enforcement and intelligence agencies want is a 1984 tele screen in your pocket with a back door so they can let you self incriminate yourself 24/7/365.
The other risk is that with a back door, crap could be planted on your devices if they ever need a reason to discredit you.
There is no way this ends well.
RIPA is used as a complete, total, cover up by investigatory bodies. British police or intelligence officers could well be holding American subjects in the UK using RIPA. No one will be allowed to publicise this form of rendition. Our "Free Press" is utterly forbidden to publish any details of a RIPA investigation until sanctioned by the Crown Courts.
The UK government (as part of Five Eyes) are looking to strengthen RIPA and fully protect all participating governments from chinks in the current legislation. Google RIPA to see what Apple could be exposing its customers to in the near future.
Our governments are terrified of the WWW, especially after Western governments created so much unrest in the ME it sparked the 2010 Arab Spring which still resonates today.