Hands on: Apple's iPhone XS and XS Max are gorgeous, and a boon for photographers

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Comments

  • Reply 121 of 187
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 1,740member
    spheric said:
    Oh, come on, kids. 

    Is it at all possible to discuss the relative merits of devices without some idiot immediately going off the rails about how somebody did it first? 

    Yeah, Apple defined the modern smartphone. 

    You wanna Cher it and turn back time, or live with a world where other companies make great phones too, for whatever reason and with whatever moral baggage? 

    You don’t want to buy a Samsung because they’re immoral swine? Cool. Neither do I. 

    Now shut the fuck up about it while the adults are talking about image quality and lens focal length, or whatever the hell else is THE ACTUAL TOPIC. 

    Jesus Christ. 

    Every. Single. Fucking. Thread. 

    Evidently its a Samsung Screen and Camera Sensor.   The Google people are saying the Pixel 2 still has a better camera, but I remember some of the pictures DED posted from the Pixel2 and don't have an interest in it.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 122 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,762member
    k2kw said:
    spheric said:
    Oh, come on, kids. 

    Is it at all possible to discuss the relative merits of devices without some idiot immediately going off the rails about how somebody did it first? 

    Yeah, Apple defined the modern smartphone. 

    You wanna Cher it and turn back time, or live with a world where other companies make great phones too, for whatever reason and with whatever moral baggage? 

    You don’t want to buy a Samsung because they’re immoral swine? Cool. Neither do I. 

    Now shut the fuck up about it while the adults are talking about image quality and lens focal length, or whatever the hell else is THE ACTUAL TOPIC. 

    Jesus Christ. 

    Every. Single. Fucking. Thread. 

    Evidently its a Samsung Screen and Camera Sensor.   The Google people are saying the Pixel 2 still has a better camera, but I remember some of the pictures DED posted from the Pixel2 and don't have an interest in it.
    It's much more likely that it is a Sony sensor, and a Samsung screen, though LG OLED screens will also be sourced.

    I'd estimate that Apple needs 150 million units of that sensor, one per unit of something like 150 million iPhone X models that will likely be sold for FY 2019.
    edited September 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 123 of 187
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,615member
    k2kw said:
    spheric said:
    Oh, come on, kids. 

    Is it at all possible to discuss the relative merits of devices without some idiot immediately going off the rails about how somebody did it first? 

    Yeah, Apple defined the modern smartphone. 

    You wanna Cher it and turn back time, or live with a world where other companies make great phones too, for whatever reason and with whatever moral baggage? 

    You don’t want to buy a Samsung because they’re immoral swine? Cool. Neither do I. 

    Now shut the fuck up about it while the adults are talking about image quality and lens focal length, or whatever the hell else is THE ACTUAL TOPIC. 

    Jesus Christ. 

    Every. Single. Fucking. Thread. 

    Evidently its a Samsung Screen and Camera Sensor.   The Google people are saying the Pixel 2 still has a better camera, but I remember some of the pictures DED posted from the Pixel2 and don't have an interest in it.
    You wouldn't expect DED to post good pictures would you? I always read his editorials, they're entertaining and always have some really creative wordplay,  but he has no intention of being unbiased. That's his shtick
  • Reply 124 of 187
    sphericspheric Posts: 1,755member
    tmay said:
    spheric said:
    tmay said:
    spheric said:

    Damn, when I saw 100+ comments on this thread, I thought there'd be a nice discussion about the new phones. Pity it was entirely highjacked by Avon. He/ She is on my block list, but I still end up reading the shit!


    It wasn't Avon that hijacked the thread or propelled it into an idiotic pissing match.
    I'll happily take the heat for "hijacking" the thread"

    His was third post with this;

    "Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones."

    Tired of his antics.

    All Avon B7 had to do was a minute bit of research online to answer his own question, but of course, Huawei, Huawei, Huawei, all day long.
    WTF is wrong with asking whether there is a difference between this and another manufacturer’s tech, or expressing surprise that this wasn’t already possible? 

    Seriously, dude: you’re making discussion completely impossible. 

    I have no idea whether anybody has answered his question, because if yes, the reply was buried in a deluge of completely off-topic personal bullshit and insecurities. 

    I find the question interesting. 

    And would it have killed you to do a minute bit of research online to contribute to discussion, rather than Apple, Apple, Troll, Troll all day long?
    Step aside Butch; (hat tip to Marseilles in Pulp Fiction)

    I was the poster that answered his question first, then got chewed out by Avon B7 for updating with the name of the feature, Depth Control, which is the new addition to Portrait Mode. How entitled does someone have to be to do that?

    So, yeah, I'll take the blame.

    Easy to check what I have stated; just look for my comments in the thread.

    I've attempted to be measured in my responses, but you can decide that.
    Avon B7 asked whether the Xs worked similarly to Aperture Mode on the P20. In parallel, people started pissing about how nobody cared about the P20 because of lack of sales or inflated sales numbers, or whatever. 

    Avon basically re-iterated his question and explained that he hadn't asked before because he'd assumed it was a different feature. 

    Eric and Nht kept going on and on about sales numbers. 

    Then StrangeDays trolled Avon for caring about what his "Chinese knockoffs" do. 

    Then others joined in the fray and pissed on Avon for ASKING WHAT THE DIFFERENCE IN FUNCTIONS WAS (and supposedly "defending" his question — WTF). 

    And then Melgross jumped in and trolled Avon for asking about "that Huawei crap". 

    And so on. And on. And on.

    I'm not making this up. I'm reading the thread and that is literally exactly what happened. 

    It's a fucking kindergarten.
    edited September 2018 gatorguy
  • Reply 125 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,762member
    gatorguy said:
    k2kw said:
    spheric said:
    Oh, come on, kids. 

    Is it at all possible to discuss the relative merits of devices without some idiot immediately going off the rails about how somebody did it first? 

    Yeah, Apple defined the modern smartphone. 

    You wanna Cher it and turn back time, or live with a world where other companies make great phones too, for whatever reason and with whatever moral baggage? 

    You don’t want to buy a Samsung because they’re immoral swine? Cool. Neither do I. 

    Now shut the fuck up about it while the adults are talking about image quality and lens focal length, or whatever the hell else is THE ACTUAL TOPIC. 

    Jesus Christ. 

    Every. Single. Fucking. Thread. 

    Evidently its a Samsung Screen and Camera Sensor.   The Google people are saying the Pixel 2 still has a better camera, but I remember some of the pictures DED posted from the Pixel2 and don't have an interest in it.
    You wouldn't expect DED to post good pictures would you? I always read his editorials, they're entertaining and always have some really creative wordplay,  but he has no intention of being unbiased. That's his shtick
    Reviewers that have tested the new iPhones against the Pixel 2, still give the edge to the Pixel 2. Since the Pixel 3 is around the corner, I'd guess that Google won't have trouble extending it's lead.

    Still, Apple has an inherent advantage in AR with dual cameras, and with the iPhone XR, will essentially use focus pixels for depth data, which is, I think, similar to what Google is doing with the Pixel 2.

    I'm more interested in where this is going;

    http://www.idownloadblog.com/2018/07/23/sony-48mp-smartphone-camera-sensor/

    Could be the Swiss Army knife of imagers.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 126 of 187
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,615member
    tmay said:
    AppleZulu said:
    nunzy said:
    Apple now has the best cameras ever made. Professional photographers will not need anything else.

    I defy anybody to see any differences unless the photo is blow up to billboard size.
    No, not the case at all. Sure, amateurs may not need anything else, but the iPhone camera does not substitute for a ‘real’ camera. 

    The iPhone has only two lenses, each with a fixed aperture and focal length. The portrait mode feature that blurs the background to create what they like to call “bokeh,” is entirely simulated. It is essentially an automated photoshop feature. Although it is generally nicely done, you don’t have to enlarge the picture in many cases to see where the simulated effect hasn’t quite found the edges of the subject to separate it from the background that’s blurred after the fact. I can see the difference on my phone’s screen. No billboard needed. 

    The actual bokeh effect is achieved with ‘real’ cameras where you (or the onboard computer) control focus, aperture, and shutter speed according to the laws of physics and record the result on the camera’s sensor (or film, if you’re really old-school). The iPhone’s fixed focal length, fixed aperture lenses simply can’t do that. It is physically impossible. Actually that’s not entirely true. They could be set up to do that, but then they couldn’t not do that, to go for the double negative. It’s the fixed aspect of the lenses that make that the case.  

    Mind you, the iPhone’s cameras are better than most consumer grade amateur gear that’s been out there, but they’re no match for a good Nikon, Olympus, Canon, etc. camera with interchangeable lenses. And they’re certainly no Hasselblad. 
    "In photography, bokeh (/ˈboʊkeɪ/ BOH-kay) (Japanese: [boke]) is the aesthetic quality of the blur produced in the out-of-focus parts of an image produced by a lens. Bokeh has been defined as "the way the lens renders out-of-focus points of light".

    Where did you source that pronunciation? The proper one is bow-KEH (as in kettle), or at least that's the way I was taught. 
  • Reply 127 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,762member
    spheric said:
    tmay said:
    spheric said:
    tmay said:
    spheric said:

    Damn, when I saw 100+ comments on this thread, I thought there'd be a nice discussion about the new phones. Pity it was entirely highjacked by Avon. He/ She is on my block list, but I still end up reading the shit!


    It wasn't Avon that hijacked the thread or propelled it into an idiotic pissing match.
    I'll happily take the heat for "hijacking" the thread"

    His was third post with this;

    "Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones."

    Tired of his antics.

    All Avon B7 had to do was a minute bit of research online to answer his own question, but of course, Huawei, Huawei, Huawei, all day long.
    WTF is wrong with asking whether there is a difference between this and another manufacturer’s tech, or expressing surprise that this wasn’t already possible? 

    Seriously, dude: you’re making discussion completely impossible. 

    I have no idea whether anybody has answered his question, because if yes, the reply was buried in a deluge of completely off-topic personal bullshit and insecurities. 

    I find the question interesting. 

    And would it have killed you to do a minute bit of research online to contribute to discussion, rather than Apple, Apple, Troll, Troll all day long?
    Step aside Butch; (hat tip to Marseilles in Pulp Fiction)

    I was the poster that answered his question first, then got chewed out by Avon B7 for updating with the name of the feature, Depth Control, which is the new addition to Portrait Mode. How entitled does someone have to be to do that?

    So, yeah, I'll take the blame.

    Easy to check what I have stated; just look for my comments in the thread.

    I've attempted to be measured in my responses, but you can decide that.
    Avon B7 asked whether the Xs worked similarly to Aperture Mode on the P20. In parallel, people started pissing about how nobody cared about the P20 because of lack of sales or inflated sales numbers, or whatever. 

    Avon basically re-iterated his question and explained that he hadn't asked before because he'd assumed it was a different feature. 

    Eric and Nht kept going on and on about sales numbers. 

    Then StrangeDays trolled Avon for caring about what his "Chinese knockoffs" do. 

    Then others joined in the fray and pissed on Avon for ASKING WHAT THE DIFFERENCE IN FUNCTIONS WAS (and supposedly "defending" his question — WTF). 

    And then Melgross jumped in and trolled Avon for asking about "that Huawei crap". 

    And so on. And on. And on.

    I'm not making this up. I'm reading the thread and that is literally exactly what happened. 

    It's a fucking kindergarten.
    All because Avon B7 couldn't take 30 seconds to do a simple search to at least get himself versed on the new iPhone XS/XR, "I came up blank", and then do the comparison himself, which is fucking bullshit.

    Instead, he leads with "Huawei had it first", expecting the rest of us posters to be knowledgable or interested enough in doing the comparison, which had nothing to do with the OP. 

    You really need to stop entitling Avon B7. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 128 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,762member
    gatorguy said:
    tmay said:
    AppleZulu said:
    nunzy said:
    Apple now has the best cameras ever made. Professional photographers will not need anything else.

    I defy anybody to see any differences unless the photo is blow up to billboard size.
    No, not the case at all. Sure, amateurs may not need anything else, but the iPhone camera does not substitute for a ‘real’ camera. 

    The iPhone has only two lenses, each with a fixed aperture and focal length. The portrait mode feature that blurs the background to create what they like to call “bokeh,” is entirely simulated. It is essentially an automated photoshop feature. Although it is generally nicely done, you don’t have to enlarge the picture in many cases to see where the simulated effect hasn’t quite found the edges of the subject to separate it from the background that’s blurred after the fact. I can see the difference on my phone’s screen. No billboard needed. 

    The actual bokeh effect is achieved with ‘real’ cameras where you (or the onboard computer) control focus, aperture, and shutter speed according to the laws of physics and record the result on the camera’s sensor (or film, if you’re really old-school). The iPhone’s fixed focal length, fixed aperture lenses simply can’t do that. It is physically impossible. Actually that’s not entirely true. They could be set up to do that, but then they couldn’t not do that, to go for the double negative. It’s the fixed aspect of the lenses that make that the case.  

    Mind you, the iPhone’s cameras are better than most consumer grade amateur gear that’s been out there, but they’re no match for a good Nikon, Olympus, Canon, etc. camera with interchangeable lenses. And they’re certainly no Hasselblad. 
    "In photography, bokeh (/ˈboʊkeɪ/ BOH-kay) (Japanese: [boke]) is the aesthetic quality of the blur produced in the out-of-focus parts of an image produced by a lens. Bokeh has been defined as "the way the lens renders out-of-focus points of light".

    Where did you source that pronunciation? The proper one is bow-KEH (as in kettle), or at least that's the way I was taught. 
    That's just wikipedia. I pronounce it as you do.
  • Reply 129 of 187
    sphericspheric Posts: 1,755member
    Amazing. It's as if this place weren't built for discussion. 

    So, because YOU aren't interested in how the iPhone's features stack up to other machines, Avon is an asshole? 

    And I'm "entitling Avon" because I'm pointing out that he was just asking a question (and a rather interesting one), and you weren't listening because you were all standing around shouting to stone him because you thought you heard him say "Jehovah"? 



    Aw man. What a pitiful show. 
  • Reply 130 of 187
    spheric said:

    Damn, when I saw 100+ comments on this thread, I thought there'd be a nice discussion about the new phones. Pity it was entirely highjacked by Avon. He/ She is on my block list, but I still end up reading the shit!


    It wasn't Avon that hijacked the thread or propelled it into an idiotic pissing match.
    Yes, it was, as he went out of his way to bring up yet again that his chinese knockoff had these features first. Oh, but he was “just asking!” Sure, buddy. 
    edited September 2018 tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 131 of 187

    gatorguy said:
    *sigh* 
    Another thread that's lost all value, descending into a troll fest. Nothing of value left so you've succeeded, all the adults give up and the answer to the simple question that started it all is lost somewhere in there if it was ever answered in the first place. 

    You three, and you know who you are, have fun. 
    Ah the “Who, me?” pity party is complete! Bravo.
    tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 132 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,762member
    spheric said:
    Amazing. It's as if this place weren't built for discussion. 

    So, because YOU aren't interested in how the iPhone's features stack up to other machines, Avon is an asshole? 

    And I'm "entitling Avon" because I'm pointing out that he was just asking a question (and a rather interesting one), and you weren't listening because you were all standing around shouting to stone him because you thought you heard him say "Jehovah"? 



    Aw man. What a pitiful show. 
    Oh, yeah, that's absolutely what we're doing.  /s
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 133 of 187
    Amazing. It's as if this place weren't built for discussion. 

    So, because YOU aren't interested in how the iPhone's features stack up to other machines, Avon is an asshole? 

    And I'm "entitling Avon" because I'm pointing out that he was just asking a question (and a rather interesting one), and you weren't listening because you were all standing around shouting to stone him because you thought you heard him say "Jehovah"? 



    Aw man. What a pitiful show. 

    We are discussing. We're discussing why ideas of "But my favorite brand did it first!" are a pretty poor showing, because *first* doesn't matter. Not a lot of what Apple does is first (tho some is), but a lot of what they do is *better*, which is much more valuable as well as relevant.

    That is a nuanced difference, and is and has been discussed here. In fact it comes up every single time a champion for another brand tries to bang a drum on how the knockoffs did it first".
    edited September 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 134 of 187
    I queued in line for 3 hours last Friday for the first time.  Purchased the XS.  It's a super fast phone and while I thought I'd hate FaceID, I actually like that - very seamless experience that just works.  Only a couple of times have I had to adjust myself to align with the phone.

    The camera however is another thing which makes me sad as I waited past the X for a better camera...  It's kind of a real mix.  For a regular shot you can get some great photos.  But low light performance is not great and I went to a beautiful park this weekend expecting great shots, but found the colors were very washed when taking some beautiful landscape pictures full of many plants.  (I got lots of good photos too and portrait is really neat, but landscapes of plants in sunlight just failed)  I also think that 12 MP is just too few these days... there's loss of detail when zooming in on a nice landscape photo.

    Maybe I'm just too used to a DSLR, or even my old 950xl and expected too much, but this Apple's premium device - I was stepping up from an SE and my phone does not have a camera that is $1000 more than that.  (The SE is surprisingly good when light is available.)

    Still, I get to enjoy the large vibrant screen and the fact that everything else just flies on the phone.  But I'm really hoping that the camera quality on the XS will improve over time given the focus on algorithmic photography.

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 135 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,762member
    I queued in line for 3 hours last Friday for the first time.  Purchased the XS.  It's a super fast phone and while I thought I'd hate FaceID, I actually like that - very seamless experience that just works.  Only a couple of times have I had to adjust myself to align with the phone.

    The camera however is another thing which makes me sad as I waited past the X for a better camera...  It's kind of a real mix.  For a regular shot you can get some great photos.  But low light performance is not great and I went to a beautiful park this weekend expecting great shots, but found the colors were very washed when taking some beautiful landscape pictures full of many plants.  (I got lots of good photos too and portrait is really neat, but landscapes of plants in sunlight just failed)  I also think that 12 MP is just too few these days... there's loss of detail when zooming in on a nice landscape photo.

    Maybe I'm just too used to a DSLR, or even my old 950xl and expected too much, but this Apple's premium device - I was stepping up from an SE and my phone does not have a camera that is $1000 more than that.  (The SE is surprisingly good when light is available.)

    Still, I get to enjoy the large vibrant screen and the fact that everything else just flies on the phone.  But I'm really hoping that the camera quality on the XS will improve over time given the focus on algorithmic photography.

    What modes did you shoot the landscapes in?

    I would think that Smart HDR is what you want to use.

    Here's a link to Austin Mann's review of the XS; he's a travel photographer

    http://austinmann.com/projects/iphone-xs-camera-review-zanzibar
    edited September 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 136 of 187
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,615member
    edit. Nevermind. I'm not being dragged into another juvenile and seemingly insecurity-driven tirade.
    edited September 2018
  • Reply 137 of 187
    sphericspheric Posts: 1,755member
    Amazing. It's as if this place weren't built for discussion. 

    So, because YOU aren't interested in how the iPhone's features stack up to other machines, Avon is an asshole? 

    And I'm "entitling Avon" because I'm pointing out that he was just asking a question (and a rather interesting one), and you weren't listening because you were all standing around shouting to stone him because you thought you heard him say "Jehovah"? 



    Aw man. What a pitiful show. 

    We are discussing. We're discussing why ideas of "But my favorite brand did it first!" are a pretty poor showing, because *first* doesn't matter. Not a lot of what Apple does is first (tho some is), but a lot of what they do is *better*, which is much more valuable as well as relevant.

    That is a nuanced difference, and is and has been discussed here. In fact it comes up every single time a champion for another brand tries to bang a drum on how the knockoffs did it first".
    Huh. The interesting thing here is, this is the actual post that was made: 

    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.



    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?


    That is so NOT Huawei rah-rah. In fact, one of the core points is "Wait, I thought iPhones already did this?" 

    To read that post as "But my favourite brand did it first!" says a whole lot more about your intent than Avon B7's.

    And your willingness to ignore all actual content in the interest of personal vendetta. 
    edited September 2018 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 138 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,762member
    spheric said:
    Amazing. It's as if this place weren't built for discussion. 

    So, because YOU aren't interested in how the iPhone's features stack up to other machines, Avon is an asshole? 

    And I'm "entitling Avon" because I'm pointing out that he was just asking a question (and a rather interesting one), and you weren't listening because you were all standing around shouting to stone him because you thought you heard him say "Jehovah"? 



    Aw man. What a pitiful show. 

    We are discussing. We're discussing why ideas of "But my favorite brand did it first!" are a pretty poor showing, because *first* doesn't matter. Not a lot of what Apple does is first (tho some is), but a lot of what they do is *better*, which is much more valuable as well as relevant.

    That is a nuanced difference, and is and has been discussed here. In fact it comes up every single time a champion for another brand tries to bang a drum on how the knockoffs did it first".
    Huh. The interesting thing here is, this is the actual post that was made: 

    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.



    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?


    That is so NOT Huawei rah-rah. In fact, one of the core points is "Wait, I thought iPhones already did this?" 

    To read that post as "But my favourite brand did it first!" says a whole lot more about your intent than Avon B7's.

    And your willingness to ignore all actual content in the interest of personal vendetta. 
    All I see is a loaded question, akin to "when did you stop beating your wife", from a poster with a history of obvious Huawei bias; you don't see that.

    That's wonderful for you.

    EDIT:

    I've decided to restructure and rewrite Avon B7's question such that it is less provocative;

    "I have an Honor 10, that has a similar feature, Would anyone like to explain to me how Portrait Mode with the adjustable aperture works? I would like to make a comparison".


    edited September 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 139 of 187
    tmay said:
    spheric said:
    Amazing. It's as if this place weren't built for discussion. 

    So, because YOU aren't interested in how the iPhone's features stack up to other machines, Avon is an asshole? 

    And I'm "entitling Avon" because I'm pointing out that he was just asking a question (and a rather interesting one), and you weren't listening because you were all standing around shouting to stone him because you thought you heard him say "Jehovah"? 



    Aw man. What a pitiful show. 

    We are discussing. We're discussing why ideas of "But my favorite brand did it first!" are a pretty poor showing, because *first* doesn't matter. Not a lot of what Apple does is first (tho some is), but a lot of what they do is *better*, which is much more valuable as well as relevant.

    That is a nuanced difference, and is and has been discussed here. In fact it comes up every single time a champion for another brand tries to bang a drum on how the knockoffs did it first".
    Huh. The interesting thing here is, this is the actual post that was made: 

    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.



    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?


    That is so NOT Huawei rah-rah. In fact, one of the core points is "Wait, I thought iPhones already did this?" 

    To read that post as "But my favourite brand did it first!" says a whole lot more about your intent than Avon B7's.

    And your willingness to ignore all actual content in the interest of personal vendetta. 
    All I see is a loaded question, akin to "when did you stop beating your wife", from a poster with a history of obvious Huawei bias; you don't see that.

    That's wonderful for you.
    I think @spheric has a point. That point is - evaluate each comment on its own, without ANY historical prejudices. It would have helped in saving this thread. I am surprised even @Melgross is joining the "Stop the troll Avon B7 at any cost" group off late!!!
    spheric
  • Reply 140 of 187
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,795member
    Spheric and Gatorguy,

    Thank you for the time and effort in trying to inject some reason and common sense here, but there is only so much one can do before things become futile.
    spheric
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