Hands on: Apple's iPhone XS and XS Max are gorgeous, and a boon for photographers

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Comments

  • Reply 141 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,817member
    avon b7 said:
    Spheric and Gatorguy,

    Thank you for the time and effort in trying to inject some reason and common sense here, but there is only so much one can do before things become futile.
    in a response to Spheric a couple of post above, I rewrote your question such that it was less provocative. 

    I have reposted it here;

    "I have an Honor 10, that has a similar feature, Would anyone like to explain to me how Portrait Mode with the adjustable aperture works? I would like to make a comparison".

    Do you think that it might have gotten better results?

    How about all of you that think I did a better job of framing this question than Avon B7 give me a like?


    edited September 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 142 of 187
    sphericspheric Posts: 1,764member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Spheric and Gatorguy,

    Thank you for the time and effort in trying to inject some reason and common sense here, but there is only so much one can do before things become futile.
    in a response to Spheric a couple of post above, I rewrote your question such that it was less provocative. 

    I have reposted it here;

    "I have an Honor 10, that has a similar feature, Would anyone like to explain to me how Portrait Mode with the adjustable aperture works? I would like to make a comparison".

    Do you think that it might have gotten better results?
    Yeah, whatever. 

    Anyway, from the looks of it, the Aperture Mode on the P20 Pro looks like it does what the Xs does, except with the addition of focus stacking, since, if I see it correctly, the focus point can be adjusted after the fact — which it cannot on the Xs. 
    edited September 2018 gatorguy
  • Reply 143 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,817member
    spheric said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Spheric and Gatorguy,

    Thank you for the time and effort in trying to inject some reason and common sense here, but there is only so much one can do before things become futile.
    in a response to Spheric a couple of post above, I rewrote your question such that it was less provocative. 

    I have reposted it here;

    "I have an Honor 10, that has a similar feature, Would anyone like to explain to me how Portrait Mode with the adjustable aperture works? I would like to make a comparison".

    Do you think that it might have gotten better results?
    Yeah, whatever. 

    Anyway, from the looks of it, the Aperture Mode on the P20 looks like it does what the Xs does, except with the addition of focus stacking, since, if I see it correctly, the focus point can be adjusted after the fact — which it cannot on the Xs. 
    You might want to post that tidbit directly to Avon B7; he's the one asking for the comparison, not anyone else other than yourself, it would appear.

    But, whatever.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 144 of 187
    sphericspheric Posts: 1,764member
    tmay said:
    spheric said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Spheric and Gatorguy,

    Thank you for the time and effort in trying to inject some reason and common sense here, but there is only so much one can do before things become futile.
    in a response to Spheric a couple of post above, I rewrote your question such that it was less provocative. 

    I have reposted it here;

    "I have an Honor 10, that has a similar feature, Would anyone like to explain to me how Portrait Mode with the adjustable aperture works? I would like to make a comparison".

    Do you think that it might have gotten better results?
    Yeah, whatever. 

    Anyway, from the looks of it, the Aperture Mode on the P20 looks like it does what the Xs does, except with the addition of focus stacking, since, if I see it correctly, the focus point can be adjusted after the fact — which it cannot on the Xs. 
    You might want to post that tidbit directly to Avon B7; he's the one asking for the comparison, not anyone else other than yourself, it would appear.

    But, whatever.
    What the hell is wrong with you?

    I've been a Mac and Apple user for thirty years, and at times the sheer belligerence of some people is just staggering. 

    It made some sort of sense during the Dark Years when Apple was the underdog, but these days...
  • Reply 145 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,817member
    spheric said:
    tmay said:
    spheric said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Spheric and Gatorguy,

    Thank you for the time and effort in trying to inject some reason and common sense here, but there is only so much one can do before things become futile.
    in a response to Spheric a couple of post above, I rewrote your question such that it was less provocative. 

    I have reposted it here;

    "I have an Honor 10, that has a similar feature, Would anyone like to explain to me how Portrait Mode with the adjustable aperture works? I would like to make a comparison".

    Do you think that it might have gotten better results?
    Yeah, whatever. 

    Anyway, from the looks of it, the Aperture Mode on the P20 looks like it does what the Xs does, except with the addition of focus stacking, since, if I see it correctly, the focus point can be adjusted after the fact — which it cannot on the Xs. 
    You might want to post that tidbit directly to Avon B7; he's the one asking for the comparison, not anyone else other than yourself, it would appear.

    But, whatever.
    What the hell is wrong with you?

    I've been a Mac and Apple user for thirty years, and at times the sheer belligerence of some people is just staggering. 

    It made some sort of sense during the Dark Years when Apple was the underdog, but these days...
    Oh dear.

    I've been using Mac's since the 128, so, sounds like we are pretty even. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 146 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,817member
    Displaymate has a test of the XS display up;

    http://www.displaymate.com/iPhoneXS_ShootOut_1s.htm
    sphericwatto_cobra
  • Reply 147 of 187
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,970member
    gatorguy said:
    k2kw said:
    spheric said:
    Oh, come on, kids. 

    Is it at all possible to discuss the relative merits of devices without some idiot immediately going off the rails about how somebody did it first? 

    Yeah, Apple defined the modern smartphone. 

    You wanna Cher it and turn back time, or live with a world where other companies make great phones too, for whatever reason and with whatever moral baggage? 

    You don’t want to buy a Samsung because they’re immoral swine? Cool. Neither do I. 

    Now shut the fuck up about it while the adults are talking about image quality and lens focal length, or whatever the hell else is THE ACTUAL TOPIC. 

    Jesus Christ. 

    Every. Single. Fucking. Thread. 

    Evidently its a Samsung Screen and Camera Sensor.   The Google people are saying the Pixel 2 still has a better camera, but I remember some of the pictures DED posted from the Pixel2 and don't have an interest in it.
    You wouldn't expect DED to post good pictures would you? I always read his editorials, they're entertaining and always have some really creative wordplay,  but he has no intention of being unbiased. That's his shtick
    He certainly has a preference for Apple, but I've never seen him go out of his way to make Apple look good when they're worse and other look bad when they're better. I've read countless articles from him where he mercilessly pans Apple for their decisions and praises others for doing it better or right.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 148 of 187
    tmay said:
    I queued in line for 3 hours last Friday for the first time.  Purchased the XS.  It's a super fast phone and while I thought I'd hate FaceID, I actually like that - very seamless experience that just works.  Only a couple of times have I had to adjust myself to align with the phone.

    The camera however is another thing which makes me sad as I waited past the X for a better camera...  It's kind of a real mix.  For a regular shot you can get some great photos.  But low light performance is not great and I went to a beautiful park this weekend expecting great shots, but found the colors were very washed when taking some beautiful landscape pictures full of many plants.  (I got lots of good photos too and portrait is really neat, but landscapes of plants in sunlight just failed)  I also think that 12 MP is just too few these days... there's loss of detail when zooming in on a nice landscape photo.

    Maybe I'm just too used to a DSLR, or even my old 950xl and expected too much, but this Apple's premium device - I was stepping up from an SE and my phone does not have a camera that is $1000 more than that.  (The SE is surprisingly good when light is available.)

    Still, I get to enjoy the large vibrant screen and the fact that everything else just flies on the phone.  But I'm really hoping that the camera quality on the XS will improve over time given the focus on algorithmic photography.

    What modes did you shoot the landscapes in?

    I would think that Smart HDR is what you want to use.

    Here's a link to Austin Mann's review of the XS; he's a travel photographer

    http://austinmann.com/projects/iphone-xs-camera-review-zanzibar
    I was in regular Photo.  There is no SmartHDR option in the photo app that I can find, but it is enabled in the Settings/Camera.
  • Reply 149 of 187
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,970member
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    [video]

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    It looks like it's doing the same type of adjustments, but I'm not sure why you mention it. For starters, when has Apple been first to anything, and yet new release you have to claim that some other company—which now seems to be Huawei, a company that makes Samsung look honest—did something first.

    Is Apple's algorithm really as bad as Huawei's? First of all, here's a screenshot of the video you posted where the presenter is showing how you can blur the foreground to make the background come into view yet he background is still blurry as fuck. It seems like it's better for adjusting bokeh, but that's not what the video is doing as noted by the coffee cup getting blurry.

    Finally, what's YOUR point? Why do you keep mentioning other, shittier products in conversations about Apple that were never asked. You're the THIRD reply in this thread! Is your goal to just jack the thread with your nonsense?


    edited September 2018 tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 150 of 187
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,970member
    captmark said:
    So Apple sells me 2 brand NEW iPhone Xs and sends it with a USB-A cable!! When you sold me a new MBP in January 2017 you told me to switch EVERYTHING to USB-C. I did but you didn't!! Then $5500 for new computers and $3300 for 2 new phones and they can't be connected to each other until I give Apple another $20 for a cable?? USB-C should have been an option when I purchased my new iPhone!! Or am I expecting to much?
    Since Apple doesn't include it I'd say you are. You can desire it, just like I desire it, but we need to keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of Apple Watches, iPhones, and iPads are sold to people who still have USB-A ports on their computers. That probably still includes Macs at this point, and I think that nearly 100%—if not 100%—of all cars with USB ports are USB-A.

    When Apple does finally move to USB-C cables (on the PSU end) I would suspect that the Apple Watch will be first since there is no data being since over that cable so it's very to use a 5W charger for charging. That still has the issue of automobiles and those that like to use the countless USB-A ports around them from other sources.

    The one saving grace that should speed up this move to either including USB-C cables with USB-C PSUs (or, if I get my wish, no included PSUs), is a move to inductive charging pads, but so far that is slow going with so many people foolishly waiting for AirPower and ignoring the countless third-party options despite the iPhone having inductive charging for over a year now.
  • Reply 151 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,817member
    tmay said:
    I queued in line for 3 hours last Friday for the first time.  Purchased the XS.  It's a super fast phone and while I thought I'd hate FaceID, I actually like that - very seamless experience that just works.  Only a couple of times have I had to adjust myself to align with the phone.

    The camera however is another thing which makes me sad as I waited past the X for a better camera...  It's kind of a real mix.  For a regular shot you can get some great photos.  But low light performance is not great and I went to a beautiful park this weekend expecting great shots, but found the colors were very washed when taking some beautiful landscape pictures full of many plants.  (I got lots of good photos too and portrait is really neat, but landscapes of plants in sunlight just failed)  I also think that 12 MP is just too few these days... there's loss of detail when zooming in on a nice landscape photo.

    Maybe I'm just too used to a DSLR, or even my old 950xl and expected too much, but this Apple's premium device - I was stepping up from an SE and my phone does not have a camera that is $1000 more than that.  (The SE is surprisingly good when light is available.)

    Still, I get to enjoy the large vibrant screen and the fact that everything else just flies on the phone.  But I'm really hoping that the camera quality on the XS will improve over time given the focus on algorithmic photography.

    What modes did you shoot the landscapes in?

    I would think that Smart HDR is what you want to use.

    Here's a link to Austin Mann's review of the XS; he's a travel photographer

    http://austinmann.com/projects/iphone-xs-camera-review-zanzibar
    I was in regular Photo.  There is no SmartHDR option in the photo app that I can find, but it is enabled in the Settings/Camera.

    "How do I use it?

    It’s simple. Just make sure HDR is enabled in the on-screen menu, choose your subject, and take a picture. Your iPhone does the heavy lifting.

    Announcing the feature, Apple VP marketing, Phil Schiller said: “Increasingly, what makes incredible photos possible aren’t just the sensor and the lens but the chip and the software that runs on it.”

    I picked that out of a link to applemust.com


    I hope that helps.

    Soliwatto_cobra
  • Reply 152 of 187
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,930member
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    [video]

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    It looks like it's doing the same type of adjustments, but I'm not sure why you mention it. For starters, when has Apple been first to anything, and yet new release you have to claim that some other company—which now seems to be Huawei, a company that makes Samsung look honest—did something first.

    Is Apple's algorithm really as bad as Huawei's? First of all, here's a screenshot of the video you posted where the presenter is showing how you can blur the foreground to make the background come into view yet he background is still blurry as fuck. It seems like it's better for adjusting bokeh, but that's not what the video is doing as noted by the coffee cup getting blurry.

    Finally, what's YOUR point? Why do you keep mentioning other, shittier products in conversations about Apple that were never asked. You're the THIRD reply in this thread! Is your goal to just jack the thread with your nonsense?


    My point was in that third post. Asked, explained, asked again, explained again, and again, and again.

    Why don't YOU get it?

    You know, if I explain it again, you still won't get it. Of that I'm sure.



  • Reply 153 of 187
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,970member
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    [video]

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    It looks like it's doing the same type of adjustments, but I'm not sure why you mention it. For starters, when has Apple been first to anything, and yet new release you have to claim that some other company—which now seems to be Huawei, a company that makes Samsung look honest—did something first.

    Is Apple's algorithm really as bad as Huawei's? First of all, here's a screenshot of the video you posted where the presenter is showing how you can blur the foreground to make the background come into view yet he background is still blurry as fuck. It seems like it's better for adjusting bokeh, but that's not what the video is doing as noted by the coffee cup getting blurry.

    Finally, what's YOUR point? Why do you keep mentioning other, shittier products in conversations about Apple that were never asked. You're the THIRD reply in this thread! Is your goal to just jack the thread with your nonsense?

    [image]
    My point was in that third post. Asked, explained, asked again, explained again, and again, and again.

    Why don't YOU get it?

    You know, if I explain it again, you still won't get it. Of that I'm sure.
    Let me ask you a question: What's the point of a computational bokeh effect if it's going to blur the primary object you're trying to photograph?

    Here's an example I just took* since I don't think you're understanding the difference between bokeh...

    In this first photograph Schiller shows the original photo with their bokeh effect in play"


    In this second photograph Schiller shows how they've adjust the bokeh effect so that the background stands out more WITHOUT altering the primary subject in the foreground:

    So, why in the world would someone want for the object they took a photo of to become blurry like the background of the photo? These don't have the physical components to mimic Lytro! Bottom line: Huawei ain't got nothing but their typical snake oil to sell.


    * I took screenshots from the September event. I was being cheeky with my word usage.
    edited September 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 154 of 187
    sphericspheric Posts: 1,764member
    From that image, it looks like while the Huawei allows retroactively changing the focus point through focus stacking, it's a feature that doesn't actually work properly if the aperture didn't include the depth of focus in the first place (which it can't except in really bright light or at unhealthily long exposures). 

    So Apple just leaves it off and limits post to adjusting bokeh.
    Soli
  • Reply 155 of 187
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,970member
    spheric said:
    From that image, it looks like while the Huawei allows retroactively changing the focus point through focus stacking, it's a feature that doesn't actually work properly if the aperture didn't include the depth of focus in the first place (which it can't except in really bright light or at unhealthily long exposures). 

    So Apple just leaves it off and limits post to adjusting bokeh.
    I just watched the photography section again (as noted by my above post). Schiller covered the basics of how many separate and different images the system will take per photo with the new A12 Bionic in order to make such remarkable images and be able to adjust them so well in post.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 156 of 187
    sphericspheric Posts: 1,764member
    Soli said:

    Finally, what's YOUR point? Why do you keep mentioning other, shittier products in conversations about Apple that were never asked. You're the THIRD reply in this thread! Is your goal to just jack the thread with your nonsense?
    You know, if asking "how does this described feature compare to this feature available on the phone I've been using" is a problem for this forum, I don't think it's his post, but the rest of the forum that is the problem. 

    Yes, dammit: it's the third reply in this thread. Do you think it would have appeased the stoning crew if he'd waited a page or two for the fawning circle-jerk to subside? 

    I think not. 

    Discussing how a feature compares to the rest of the industry is fully legitimate discussion in a thread like this. 

    Knock off the personal bullshit already.
  • Reply 157 of 187
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,970member
    spheric said:
    Soli said:

    Finally, what's YOUR point? Why do you keep mentioning other, shittier products in conversations about Apple that were never asked. You're the THIRD reply in this thread! Is your goal to just jack the thread with your nonsense?
    You know, if asking "how does this described feature compare to this feature available on the phone I've been using" is a problem for this forum, I don't think it's his post, but the rest of the forum that is the problem. 

    Yes, dammit: it's the third reply in this thread. Do you think it would have appeased the stoning crew if he'd waited a page or two for the fawning circle-jerk to subside? 

    I think not. 

    Discussing how a feature compares to the rest of the industry is fully legitimate discussion in a thread like this. 

    Knock off the personal bullshit already.
    So you're on your soapbox to say that Avon has a right to ask a question and claim that no one addressed his question, but when I answer his question in detail and point out why his statement that Huawei did it first is incorrect—which includes screenshots from me taking the time to go back to watch the presentation—as well as ask my own questions, you get upset with me (and others) for doing so.

    The point of it being the 3rd reply and his reply shows that he made no effort to research either devices to see how these camera systems might work differently. His comment was reactionary and bias. And this is not the first time he's done this. He has absolutely no interest in any real analytical efforts to see which camera system is better or why.

    So, can YOU tell me why it makes sense to blur the foreground image along with keeping the background image blurry, or why you believe that the screenshots I took of the iPhone XS series are computationally exactly the same as the screenshot of the Huawei P9 that I took?


    PS: When the iPhone XS series was announced I never went to a Huawei-focused forum to say that Apple is better and that Huawei sucks. Why would Avon do that? Would you do that since you support someone else doing that? What's the objective?
    edited September 2018 bestkeptsecretwatto_cobra
  • Reply 158 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,817member
    spheric said:
    Soli said:

    Finally, what's YOUR point? Why do you keep mentioning other, shittier products in conversations about Apple that were never asked. You're the THIRD reply in this thread! Is your goal to just jack the thread with your nonsense?
    You know, if asking "how does this described feature compare to this feature available on the phone I've been using" is a problem for this forum, I don't think it's his post, but the rest of the forum that is the problem. 

    Yes, dammit: it's the third reply in this thread. Do you think it would have appeased the stoning crew if he'd waited a page or two for the fawning circle-jerk to subside? 

    I think not. 

    Discussing how a feature compares to the rest of the industry is fully legitimate discussion in a thread like this. 

    Knock off the personal bullshit already.
    You imply that we here should know something about Huawei smartphones, which would be unexpected for an Apple site. I have noted that Avon B7's original post was "provocative", which you disagree with, and I demonstrated a better way that Avon B7 might have stated his question, which you acknowledged with a "Yeah, whatever".

    Blaming the forum over the above is likely not a good tack at this point, but knock yourself out.

    You might want to actually tone down your belligerent speech as well, you know, after chastising me.

    Soliwatto_cobra
  • Reply 159 of 187
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    I queued in line for 3 hours last Friday for the first time.  Purchased the XS.  It's a super fast phone and while I thought I'd hate FaceID, I actually like that - very seamless experience that just works.  Only a couple of times have I had to adjust myself to align with the phone.

    The camera however is another thing which makes me sad as I waited past the X for a better camera...  It's kind of a real mix.  For a regular shot you can get some great photos.  But low light performance is not great and I went to a beautiful park this weekend expecting great shots, but found the colors were very washed when taking some beautiful landscape pictures full of many plants.  (I got lots of good photos too and portrait is really neat, but landscapes of plants in sunlight just failed)  I also think that 12 MP is just too few these days... there's loss of detail when zooming in on a nice landscape photo.

    Maybe I'm just too used to a DSLR, or even my old 950xl and expected too much, but this Apple's premium device - I was stepping up from an SE and my phone does not have a camera that is $1000 more than that.  (The SE is surprisingly good when light is available.)

    Still, I get to enjoy the large vibrant screen and the fact that everything else just flies on the phone.  But I'm really hoping that the camera quality on the XS will improve over time given the focus on algorithmic photography.

    What modes did you shoot the landscapes in?

    I would think that Smart HDR is what you want to use.

    Here's a link to Austin Mann's review of the XS; he's a travel photographer

    http://austinmann.com/projects/iphone-xs-camera-review-zanzibar
    I was in regular Photo.  There is no SmartHDR option in the photo app that I can find, but it is enabled in the Settings/Camera.

    "How do I use it?

    It’s simple. Just make sure HDR is enabled in the on-screen menu, choose your subject, and take a picture. Your iPhone does the heavy lifting.

    Announcing the feature, Apple VP marketing, Phil Schiller said: “Increasingly, what makes incredible photos possible aren’t just the sensor and the lens but the chip and the software that runs on it.”

    I picked that out of a link to applemust.com


    I hope that helps.

    Not really, there is no HDR option on my XS.  On my SE the camera app has an HDR icon at the top.  On the XS you just have Flash, Live, Timer and Color.

    As I said, I have Smart HDR on in the settings but there is no other sign of it.  I guess it is supposed to be automatic or something.
  • Reply 160 of 187
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,817member

    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

    The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

    [video]

    Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?
    It looks like it's doing the same type of adjustments, but I'm not sure why you mention it. For starters, when has Apple been first to anything, and yet new release you have to claim that some other company—which now seems to be Huawei, a company that makes Samsung look honest—did something first.

    Is Apple's algorithm really as bad as Huawei's? First of all, here's a screenshot of the video you posted where the presenter is showing how you can blur the foreground to make the background come into view yet he background is still blurry as fuck. It seems like it's better for adjusting bokeh, but that's not what the video is doing as noted by the coffee cup getting blurry.

    Finally, what's YOUR point? Why do you keep mentioning other, shittier products in conversations about Apple that were never asked. You're the THIRD reply in this thread! Is your goal to just jack the thread with your nonsense?

    [image]
    My point was in that third post. Asked, explained, asked again, explained again, and again, and again.

    Why don't YOU get it?

    You know, if I explain it again, you still won't get it. Of that I'm sure.
    Let me ask you a question: What's the point of a computational bokeh effect if it's going to blur the primary object you're trying to photograph?

    Here's an example I just took* since I don't think you're understanding the difference between bokeh...

    In this first photograph Schiller shows the original photo with their bokeh effect in play"


    In this second photograph Schiller shows how they've adjust the bokeh effect so that the background stands out more WITHOUT altering the primary subject in the foreground:

    So, why in the world would someone want for the object they took a photo of to become blurry like the background of the photo? These don't have the physical components to mimic Lytro! Bottom line: Huawei ain't got nothing but their typical snake oil to sell.


    * I took screenshots from the September event. I was being cheeky with my word usage.
    Funny thing; I was asking myself that. Being able to add a focus point doesn't really solve any problems, at least that I can see.

    Good point,
    watto_cobra
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