Huawei HiSilicon Kirin 980 more than a year behind Apple's A12 Bionic in performance

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 136
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,056member
    avon b7 said:

    This is incorrect:

    "Huawei's expensive new Mate 20 Pro flagship copies Apple's design and price, but sells in a market where Androids are cheap

    Huawei is just now trying to sell devices priced like a Galaxy Note or Apple's iPhone lineup"

    Huawei doesn't copy Apple's design or price. It had plus $1,000 smartphones long before the 1,000 dollar iPhone even existed and still has phones that almost double the price of iPhone X. I don't see the Mate 20 camera setup on any iPhone, nor the hidden speaker grill, nor the ribbed finish, nor the curved screen. 

    This is also incorrect:

    "But despite using the same fab process, Huawei's Kirin 980-powered Mate 20 Pro flagship lags far behind Apple's iPhone XS A12, turning in performance scores well below last year's A11 iPhone X."

    Performance of what? A SoC is many things. The Kirin 980 includes modem and wi-fi, both of which are seemingly far ahead of Apple on 'performance'. It also includes the NPU where the Kirin 970 NPU not only performed better than the A11 Neural Engine, but was put to better use throughout the phone. I haven't seen NPU comparisons for K980/A12 yet.

    What you are talking about is the cores and Huawei is using the very latest ARM CPU/GPU designs and has more than enough speed.

    That said, in spite of being 'slower', the Mate 20 series (and P20 Pro/Mate 10 before it) has managed to 'outperform' Apple literally all over the rest of the phone.

    40W wired ultra fast charging (1% in 30 seconds)
    15W wireless charging
    Reverse charging
    Tri Camera
    3x optical zoom
    5x hybrid zoom
    3D object modelling
    Cat 21 modem
    Ultra fast wi-fi
    Dual frequency GPS
    AIIS 
    Night Mode
    Expandable storage
    True dual SIM
    In screen ultrasonic fingerprint sensor
    Wireless desktop mode
    Balong 5000 compatibility

    The Mate 20 X also uses graphene and vapour chamber cooling. The Mate RS uses micro capsule cooling.

    The new iPhone (A12 included) was basically overshadowed in terms of attention even in Apple circles by ... the Apple Watch. 

    Speed gives you .... speed. The A11 had plenty. I don't remember anyone saying they noticed a lack of it. The A12 brings even more.

    Will most Apple users really notice a dramatic improvement? I very much doubt it. FaceID is faster but no one said it was slow to begin with. Will WhatsApp open faster? 

    Phones are more than speed. It's been that way for a few years now. Phones are about other areas. Areas where Apple is painfully lacking right now (see above), especially in terms of innovation.

    As Counterpoint recently said, 'Apple has been leapfrogged'.

    The Mate 20 Series launched on Tuesday. The new iPhones launched four weeks before. The iPhones will not change for another, and whopping eleven months!

    Next up is Honor and the Magic 2 (October 31st) and before you can say 'S10' the P30 will be on us! The bar has been set high and will go far higher before the next iPhone refresh.

    And the Mate series is the 'boring' series. LOL.

    Apple uses the words 'best', 'fastest', 'most advanced' all over the place but limits comparisons to .... other iPhones!

    While we wait for reviews to corroborate what was presented on Tuesday (essential step) it is clear that Huawei has given the Samsung and Apple cages a good rattling by just presenting what they revealed on Tuesday. I say corroboration is essential as Huawei took  only about 5 minutes to claim the Mate 20 Pro opened the top 50 apps from the Play Store far faster than the iPhone Xs Max (A12 and all). That is a performance metric that does matter.

    ''Performance' (in the context of this article) is the least of Huawei's worries. The goal was to have a well balanced SoC. According to Anandtech, that goal looks to have been largely achieved.

    Focusing on 'performance' and simply ignoring the rest, is 'not seeing the forest for the trees'.

    Looking ahead, far from rumours of a Kirin 990, rumours swirled in June around a Kirin 1020. That in addition to persistent rumours of an in-house GPU.

    Speed itself is simply not enough to be a differentiating factor nowadays, and anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to take a long hard look at what Huawei has put into this new series.

    One analyst said Samsung is now in 'full on panic mode'. I think Apple is in a similar situation and needs to shift up a gear. We need a Schiller moment:

    'Can't innovate, my ass!'

    But please Phil, no cylinder iPhone!

    Competition is the only way these technologies can be realised. We all win.

    Apple has done an amazing job with the A12. The problem is elsewhere.

    As for this piece, something is telling and is summed up here:

    https://www.newsweek.com/rise-huawei-how-smartphone-maker-conquering-tech-world-without-us-1176300

    Which is basically tied to this in some ways

    https://www.newsweek.com/iphone-killer-ditching-apple-new-huawei-p20-pro-887208

    That was on a phone launched in March and little has changed since then on the Apple front. Ironic that the author attempts to paint a picture of Huawei being 'a year behind' when, by the time Apple can catch Huawei's Night Mode for example, it will be well over a year behind. And what about the rest?

    The next step is to simply see how the Mate 20 holds up in real world use. The proof is always in the pudding and we will have wait. I always take PR and marketing at face value but going by the presentation and early full reviews using pre-production software, things don't look too shabby. We will see.










    Blah blah blah. Nobody gives a flying eff about your Huawei shilling, lies or spin.
    So. That's it? That's all you have?

    Wow!

    The spin is in the article. The 'damage control' (as you tried to claim) was also in the article.

    The article only existed to pull attention away from the reality. Huawei was getting a lot of attention for the right reasons. The iPhone Xs Max was used (along with the Samsung S9+) during the presentation to highlight the strengths of the Mate 20 series. Are you surprised?

    Well, the new 2018 iPhone didn't fair too well in front of those thousands who watched the presentation in the hall. Are you surprised?

    As with all presentations - including Apple's - what is NOT said, is often more interesting than what IS said but those details always float to the surface at some point so you can be sure that Huawei will squeeze all it can out of every event. Are you surprised?

    Now, if you offered iPhone users the choice of a new A12 model or an A11 model - but with a Mate 20 Pro feature set - most takers would be for the latter. Of that I am convinced and that is what you should be reflecting on.

    Along with why Apple only ships its new 1,000 dollar phones with 50 cent chargers and without headphone jack adaptors etc. Not even a plastic case or factory applied screen protector (standard on many Huawei phones).
    edited October 2018
  • Reply 42 of 136
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,832member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    This is incorrect:

    "Huawei's expensive new Mate 20 Pro flagship copies Apple's design and price, but sells in a market where Androids are cheap

    Huawei is just now trying to sell devices priced like a Galaxy Note or Apple's iPhone lineup"

    Huawei doesn't copy Apple's design or price. It had plus $1,000 smartphones long before the 1,000 dollar iPhone even existed and still has phones that almost double the price of iPhone X. I don't see the Mate 20 camera setup on any iPhone, nor the hidden speaker grill, nor the ribbed finish, nor the curved screen. 

    This is also incorrect:

    "But despite using the same fab process, Huawei's Kirin 980-powered Mate 20 Pro flagship lags far behind Apple's iPhone XS A12, turning in performance scores well below last year's A11 iPhone X."

    Performance of what? A SoC is many things. The Kirin 980 includes modem and wi-fi, both of which are seemingly far ahead of Apple on 'performance'. It also includes the NPU where the Kirin 970 NPU not only performed better than the A11 Neural Engine, but was put to better use throughout the phone. I haven't seen NPU comparisons for K980/A12 yet.

    What you are talking about is the cores and Huawei is using the very latest ARM CPU/GPU designs and has more than enough speed.

    That said, in spite of being 'slower', the Mate 20 series (and P20 Pro/Mate 10 before it) has managed to 'outperform' Apple literally all over the rest of the phone.

    40W wired ultra fast charging (1% in 30 seconds)
    15W wireless charging
    Reverse charging
    Tri Camera
    3x optical zoom
    5x hybrid zoom
    3D object modelling
    Cat 21 modem
    Ultra fast wi-fi
    Dual frequency GPS
    AIIS 
    Night Mode
    Expandable storage
    True dual SIM
    In screen ultrasonic fingerprint sensor
    Wireless desktop mode
    Balong 5000 compatibility

    The Mate 20 X also uses graphene and vapour chamber cooling. The Mate RS uses micro capsule cooling.

    The new iPhone (A12 included) was basically overshadowed in terms of attention even in Apple circles by ... the Apple Watch. 

    Speed gives you .... speed. The A11 had plenty. I don't remember anyone saying they noticed a lack of it. The A12 brings even more.

    Will most Apple users really notice a dramatic improvement? I very much doubt it. FaceID is faster but no one said it was slow to begin with. Will WhatsApp open faster? 

    Phones are more than speed. It's been that way for a few years now. Phones are about other areas. Areas where Apple is painfully lacking right now (see above), especially in terms of innovation.

    As Counterpoint recently said, 'Apple has been leapfrogged'.

    The Mate 20 Series launched on Tuesday. The new iPhones launched four weeks before. The iPhones will not change for another, and whopping eleven months!

    Next up is Honor and the Magic 2 (October 31st) and before you can say 'S10' the P30 will be on us! The bar has been set high and will go far higher before the next iPhone refresh.

    And the Mate series is the 'boring' series. LOL.

    Apple uses the words 'best', 'fastest', 'most advanced' all over the place but limits comparisons to .... other iPhones!

    While we wait for reviews to corroborate what was presented on Tuesday (essential step) it is clear that Huawei has given the Samsung and Apple cages a good rattling by just presenting what they revealed on Tuesday. I say corroboration is essential as Huawei took  only about 5 minutes to claim the Mate 20 Pro opened the top 50 apps from the Play Store far faster than the iPhone Xs Max (A12 and all). That is a performance metric that does matter.

    ''Performance' (in the context of this article) is the least of Huawei's worries. The goal was to have a well balanced SoC. According to Anandtech, that goal looks to have been largely achieved.

    Focusing on 'performance' and simply ignoring the rest, is 'not seeing the forest for the trees'.

    Looking ahead, far from rumours of a Kirin 990, rumours swirled in June around a Kirin 1020. That in addition to persistent rumours of an in-house GPU.

    Speed itself is simply not enough to be a differentiating factor nowadays, and anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to take a long hard look at what Huawei has put into this new series.

    One analyst said Samsung is now in 'full on panic mode'. I think Apple is in a similar situation and needs to shift up a gear. We need a Schiller moment:

    'Can't innovate, my ass!'

    But please Phil, no cylinder iPhone!

    Competition is the only way these technologies can be realised. We all win.

    Apple has done an amazing job with the A12. The problem is elsewhere.

    As for this piece, something is telling and is summed up here:

    https://www.newsweek.com/rise-huawei-how-smartphone-maker-conquering-tech-world-without-us-1176300

    Which is basically tied to this in some ways

    https://www.newsweek.com/iphone-killer-ditching-apple-new-huawei-p20-pro-887208

    That was on a phone launched in March and little has changed since then on the Apple front. Ironic that the author attempts to paint a picture of Huawei being 'a year behind' when, by the time Apple can catch Huawei's Night Mode for example, it will be well over a year behind. And what about the rest?

    The next step is to simply see how the Mate 20 holds up in real world use. The proof is always in the pudding and we will have wait. I always take PR and marketing at face value but going by the presentation and early full reviews using pre-production software, things don't look too shabby. We will see.










    Blah blah blah. Nobody gives a flying eff about your Huawei shilling, lies or spin.
    So. That's it? That's all you have?

    Wow!

    The spin is in the article. The 'damage control' (as you tried to claim) was also in the article.

    The article only existed to pull attention away from the reality. Huawei was getting a lot of attention for the right reasons. The iPhone Xs Max was used (along with the Samsung S9+) during the presentation to highlight the strengths of the Mate 20 series. Are you surprised?

    Well, the new 2018 iPhone didn't fair too well in front of those thousands who watched the presentation in the hall. Are you surprised?

    As with all presentations - including Apple's - what is NOT said, is often more interesting than what IS said but those details always float to the surface at some point so you can be sure that Huawei will squeeze all it can out of every event. Are you surprised?

    Now, if you offered iPhone users the choice of a new A12 model or an A11 model - but with a Mate 20 Pro feature set - most takers would be for the latter. Of that I am convinced and that is what you should be reflecting on.

    Along with why Apple only ships its new 1,000 dollar phones with 50 cent chargers and without headphone jack adaptors etc. Not even a plastic case or factory applied screen protector (standard on many Huawei phones).
    iPhone is a market in itself, and as part of Apple's ecosystem advantage, Apple doesn't need to expend effort adding all of those features that are needed to differentiate Android OS devices like the Chinese OEM's and Samsung have to do. Apple adds features when it fits their roadmap, and when it can add those same features in volume across its product lines.

    I think that it's fine for Huawei to strive to obtain the best and most features in a device, and I expect that Samsung will response in kind, tit fo tat, but with an expected stronger processor than the Kirin 980.

    Meanwhile, I'm not noticing any substantial advantages to the Mate product line over the iPhone X models, whatever your list, and certainly a heck of a lot of advantages to iOS and Apple's ecosystem over Android OS. You still are in denial about iPhone X sales, and I'm expecting that you will be in denial when Apple announces its financials for this quarter in January. You have yet to acknowledge that Apple's business model is superior to it's competition.

    Still, I find it amusing that every manufacturer has to compare its products to Apple's. Funny how that works.
    edited October 2018 ericthehalfbeeStrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 136
    HAHAHA! This phone is a knockoff of the iPhone X AND Shamdung's edge phones. Truly hilarious. The Chinese have ZERO originality.
    StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 136
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    This is incorrect:

    "Huawei's expensive new Mate 20 Pro flagship copies Apple's design and price, but sells in a market where Androids are cheap

    Huawei is just now trying to sell devices priced like a Galaxy Note or Apple's iPhone lineup"

    Huawei doesn't copy Apple's design or price. It had plus $1,000 smartphones long before the 1,000 dollar iPhone even existed and still has phones that almost double the price of iPhone X. I don't see the Mate 20 camera setup on any iPhone, nor the hidden speaker grill, nor the ribbed finish, nor the curved screen. 

    This is also incorrect:

    "But despite using the same fab process, Huawei's Kirin 980-powered Mate 20 Pro flagship lags far behind Apple's iPhone XS A12, turning in performance scores well below last year's A11 iPhone X."

    Performance of what? A SoC is many things. The Kirin 980 includes modem and wi-fi, both of which are seemingly far ahead of Apple on 'performance'. It also includes the NPU where the Kirin 970 NPU not only performed better than the A11 Neural Engine, but was put to better use throughout the phone. I haven't seen NPU comparisons for K980/A12 yet.

    What you are talking about is the cores and Huawei is using the very latest ARM CPU/GPU designs and has more than enough speed.

    That said, in spite of being 'slower', the Mate 20 series (and P20 Pro/Mate 10 before it) has managed to 'outperform' Apple literally all over the rest of the phone.

    40W wired ultra fast charging (1% in 30 seconds)
    15W wireless charging
    Reverse charging
    Tri Camera
    3x optical zoom
    5x hybrid zoom
    3D object modelling
    Cat 21 modem
    Ultra fast wi-fi
    Dual frequency GPS
    AIIS 
    Night Mode
    Expandable storage
    True dual SIM
    In screen ultrasonic fingerprint sensor
    Wireless desktop mode
    Balong 5000 compatibility

    The Mate 20 X also uses graphene and vapour chamber cooling. The Mate RS uses micro capsule cooling.

    The new iPhone (A12 included) was basically overshadowed in terms of attention even in Apple circles by ... the Apple Watch. 

    Speed gives you .... speed. The A11 had plenty. I don't remember anyone saying they noticed a lack of it. The A12 brings even more.

    Will most Apple users really notice a dramatic improvement? I very much doubt it. FaceID is faster but no one said it was slow to begin with. Will WhatsApp open faster? 

    Phones are more than speed. It's been that way for a few years now. Phones are about other areas. Areas where Apple is painfully lacking right now (see above), especially in terms of innovation.

    As Counterpoint recently said, 'Apple has been leapfrogged'.

    The Mate 20 Series launched on Tuesday. The new iPhones launched four weeks before. The iPhones will not change for another, and whopping eleven months!

    Next up is Honor and the Magic 2 (October 31st) and before you can say 'S10' the P30 will be on us! The bar has been set high and will go far higher before the next iPhone refresh.

    And the Mate series is the 'boring' series. LOL.

    Apple uses the words 'best', 'fastest', 'most advanced' all over the place but limits comparisons to .... other iPhones!

    While we wait for reviews to corroborate what was presented on Tuesday (essential step) it is clear that Huawei has given the Samsung and Apple cages a good rattling by just presenting what they revealed on Tuesday. I say corroboration is essential as Huawei took  only about 5 minutes to claim the Mate 20 Pro opened the top 50 apps from the Play Store far faster than the iPhone Xs Max (A12 and all). That is a performance metric that does matter.

    ''Performance' (in the context of this article) is the least of Huawei's worries. The goal was to have a well balanced SoC. According to Anandtech, that goal looks to have been largely achieved.

    Focusing on 'performance' and simply ignoring the rest, is 'not seeing the forest for the trees'.

    Looking ahead, far from rumours of a Kirin 990, rumours swirled in June around a Kirin 1020. That in addition to persistent rumours of an in-house GPU.

    Speed itself is simply not enough to be a differentiating factor nowadays, and anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to take a long hard look at what Huawei has put into this new series.

    One analyst said Samsung is now in 'full on panic mode'. I think Apple is in a similar situation and needs to shift up a gear. We need a Schiller moment:

    'Can't innovate, my ass!'

    But please Phil, no cylinder iPhone!

    Competition is the only way these technologies can be realised. We all win.

    Apple has done an amazing job with the A12. The problem is elsewhere.

    As for this piece, something is telling and is summed up here:

    https://www.newsweek.com/rise-huawei-how-smartphone-maker-conquering-tech-world-without-us-1176300

    Which is basically tied to this in some ways

    https://www.newsweek.com/iphone-killer-ditching-apple-new-huawei-p20-pro-887208

    That was on a phone launched in March and little has changed since then on the Apple front. Ironic that the author attempts to paint a picture of Huawei being 'a year behind' when, by the time Apple can catch Huawei's Night Mode for example, it will be well over a year behind. And what about the rest?

    The next step is to simply see how the Mate 20 holds up in real world use. The proof is always in the pudding and we will have wait. I always take PR and marketing at face value but going by the presentation and early full reviews using pre-production software, things don't look too shabby. We will see.










    Blah blah blah. Nobody gives a flying eff about your Huawei shilling, lies or spin.
    So. That's it? That's all you have?

    Wow!

    The spin is in the article. The 'damage control' (as you tried to claim) was also in the article.

    The article only existed to pull attention away from the reality. Huawei was getting a lot of attention for the right reasons. The iPhone Xs Max was used (along with the Samsung S9+) during the presentation to highlight the strengths of the Mate 20 series. Are you surprised?

    Well, the new 2018 iPhone didn't fair too well in front of those thousands who watched the presentation in the hall. Are you surprised?

    As with all presentations - including Apple's - what is NOT said, is often more interesting than what IS said but those details always float to the surface at some point so you can be sure that Huawei will squeeze all it can out of every event. Are you surprised?

    Now, if you offered iPhone users the choice of a new A12 model or an A11 model - but with a Mate 20 Pro feature set - most takers would be for the latter. Of that I am convinced and that is what you should be reflecting on.

    Along with why Apple only ships its new 1,000 dollar phones with 50 cent chargers and without headphone jack adaptors etc. Not even a plastic case or factory applied screen protector (standard on many Huawei phones).
    iPhone is a market in itself, and as part of Apple's ecosystem advantage, Apple doesn't need to expend effort adding all of those features that are needed to differentiate Android OS devices like the Chinese OEM's and Samsung have to do. Apple adds features when it fits their roadmap, and when it can add those same features in volume across its product lines.

    I think that it's fine for Huawei to strive to obtain the best and most features in a device, and I expect that Samsung will response in kind, tit fo tat, but with an expected stronger processor than the Kirin 980.

    Meanwhile, I'm not noticing any substantial advantages to the Mate product line over the iPhone X models, whatever your list, and certainly a heck of a lot of advantages to iOS and Apple's ecosystem over Android OS. You still are in denial about iPhone X sales, and I'm expecting that you will be in denial when Apple announces its financials for this quarter in January. You have yet to acknowledge that Apple's business model is superior to it's competition.

    Still, I find it amusing that every manufacturer has to compare its products to Apple's. Funny how that works.
    I largely agree with your comment. Yes, Apple's business model is superior to its competition. They are doing more things right than the competitors for a very long time (almost taken for granted which is an unfair treatment towards Apple). Just one correction - we don't need to wait all the way until Jan-2019 to know the revenue for Apple in holiday quarter. Just couple of more weeks - Apple's projections alone would give enough clues about holiday quarter.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 136
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,832member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    This is incorrect:

    "Huawei's expensive new Mate 20 Pro flagship copies Apple's design and price, but sells in a market where Androids are cheap

    Huawei is just now trying to sell devices priced like a Galaxy Note or Apple's iPhone lineup"

    Huawei doesn't copy Apple's design or price. It had plus $1,000 smartphones long before the 1,000 dollar iPhone even existed and still has phones that almost double the price of iPhone X. I don't see the Mate 20 camera setup on any iPhone, nor the hidden speaker grill, nor the ribbed finish, nor the curved screen. 

    This is also incorrect:

    "But despite using the same fab process, Huawei's Kirin 980-powered Mate 20 Pro flagship lags far behind Apple's iPhone XS A12, turning in performance scores well below last year's A11 iPhone X."

    Performance of what? A SoC is many things. The Kirin 980 includes modem and wi-fi, both of which are seemingly far ahead of Apple on 'performance'. It also includes the NPU where the Kirin 970 NPU not only performed better than the A11 Neural Engine, but was put to better use throughout the phone. I haven't seen NPU comparisons for K980/A12 yet.

    What you are talking about is the cores and Huawei is using the very latest ARM CPU/GPU designs and has more than enough speed.

    That said, in spite of being 'slower', the Mate 20 series (and P20 Pro/Mate 10 before it) has managed to 'outperform' Apple literally all over the rest of the phone.

    40W wired ultra fast charging (1% in 30 seconds)
    15W wireless charging
    Reverse charging
    Tri Camera
    3x optical zoom
    5x hybrid zoom
    3D object modelling
    Cat 21 modem
    Ultra fast wi-fi
    Dual frequency GPS
    AIIS 
    Night Mode
    Expandable storage
    True dual SIM
    In screen ultrasonic fingerprint sensor
    Wireless desktop mode
    Balong 5000 compatibility

    The Mate 20 X also uses graphene and vapour chamber cooling. The Mate RS uses micro capsule cooling.

    The new iPhone (A12 included) was basically overshadowed in terms of attention even in Apple circles by ... the Apple Watch. 

    Speed gives you .... speed. The A11 had plenty. I don't remember anyone saying they noticed a lack of it. The A12 brings even more.

    Will most Apple users really notice a dramatic improvement? I very much doubt it. FaceID is faster but no one said it was slow to begin with. Will WhatsApp open faster? 

    Phones are more than speed. It's been that way for a few years now. Phones are about other areas. Areas where Apple is painfully lacking right now (see above), especially in terms of innovation.

    As Counterpoint recently said, 'Apple has been leapfrogged'.

    The Mate 20 Series launched on Tuesday. The new iPhones launched four weeks before. The iPhones will not change for another, and whopping eleven months!

    Next up is Honor and the Magic 2 (October 31st) and before you can say 'S10' the P30 will be on us! The bar has been set high and will go far higher before the next iPhone refresh.

    And the Mate series is the 'boring' series. LOL.

    Apple uses the words 'best', 'fastest', 'most advanced' all over the place but limits comparisons to .... other iPhones!

    While we wait for reviews to corroborate what was presented on Tuesday (essential step) it is clear that Huawei has given the Samsung and Apple cages a good rattling by just presenting what they revealed on Tuesday. I say corroboration is essential as Huawei took  only about 5 minutes to claim the Mate 20 Pro opened the top 50 apps from the Play Store far faster than the iPhone Xs Max (A12 and all). That is a performance metric that does matter.

    ''Performance' (in the context of this article) is the least of Huawei's worries. The goal was to have a well balanced SoC. According to Anandtech, that goal looks to have been largely achieved.

    Focusing on 'performance' and simply ignoring the rest, is 'not seeing the forest for the trees'.

    Looking ahead, far from rumours of a Kirin 990, rumours swirled in June around a Kirin 1020. That in addition to persistent rumours of an in-house GPU.

    Speed itself is simply not enough to be a differentiating factor nowadays, and anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to take a long hard look at what Huawei has put into this new series.

    One analyst said Samsung is now in 'full on panic mode'. I think Apple is in a similar situation and needs to shift up a gear. We need a Schiller moment:

    'Can't innovate, my ass!'

    But please Phil, no cylinder iPhone!

    Competition is the only way these technologies can be realised. We all win.

    Apple has done an amazing job with the A12. The problem is elsewhere.

    As for this piece, something is telling and is summed up here:

    https://www.newsweek.com/rise-huawei-how-smartphone-maker-conquering-tech-world-without-us-1176300

    Which is basically tied to this in some ways

    https://www.newsweek.com/iphone-killer-ditching-apple-new-huawei-p20-pro-887208

    That was on a phone launched in March and little has changed since then on the Apple front. Ironic that the author attempts to paint a picture of Huawei being 'a year behind' when, by the time Apple can catch Huawei's Night Mode for example, it will be well over a year behind. And what about the rest?

    The next step is to simply see how the Mate 20 holds up in real world use. The proof is always in the pudding and we will have wait. I always take PR and marketing at face value but going by the presentation and early full reviews using pre-production software, things don't look too shabby. We will see.










    Blah blah blah. Nobody gives a flying eff about your Huawei shilling, lies or spin.
    So. That's it? That's all you have?

    Wow!

    The spin is in the article. The 'damage control' (as you tried to claim) was also in the article.

    The article only existed to pull attention away from the reality. Huawei was getting a lot of attention for the right reasons. The iPhone Xs Max was used (along with the Samsung S9+) during the presentation to highlight the strengths of the Mate 20 series. Are you surprised?

    Well, the new 2018 iPhone didn't fair too well in front of those thousands who watched the presentation in the hall. Are you surprised?

    As with all presentations - including Apple's - what is NOT said, is often more interesting than what IS said but those details always float to the surface at some point so you can be sure that Huawei will squeeze all it can out of every event. Are you surprised?

    Now, if you offered iPhone users the choice of a new A12 model or an A11 model - but with a Mate 20 Pro feature set - most takers would be for the latter. Of that I am convinced and that is what you should be reflecting on.

    Along with why Apple only ships its new 1,000 dollar phones with 50 cent chargers and without headphone jack adaptors etc. Not even a plastic case or factory applied screen protector (standard on many Huawei phones).
    iPhone is a market in itself, and as part of Apple's ecosystem advantage, Apple doesn't need to expend effort adding all of those features that are needed to differentiate Android OS devices like the Chinese OEM's and Samsung have to do. Apple adds features when it fits their roadmap, and when it can add those same features in volume across its product lines.

    I think that it's fine for Huawei to strive to obtain the best and most features in a device, and I expect that Samsung will response in kind, tit fo tat, but with an expected stronger processor than the Kirin 980.

    Meanwhile, I'm not noticing any substantial advantages to the Mate product line over the iPhone X models, whatever your list, and certainly a heck of a lot of advantages to iOS and Apple's ecosystem over Android OS. You still are in denial about iPhone X sales, and I'm expecting that you will be in denial when Apple announces its financials for this quarter in January. You have yet to acknowledge that Apple's business model is superior to it's competition.

    Still, I find it amusing that every manufacturer has to compare its products to Apple's. Funny how that works.
    I largely agree with your comment. Yes, Apple's business model is superior to its competition. They are doing more things right than the competitors for a very long time (almost taken for granted which is an unfair treatment towards Apple). Just one correction - we don't need to wait all the way until Jan-2019 to know the revenue for Apple in holiday quarter. Just couple of more weeks - Apple's projections alone would give enough clues about holiday quarter.
    I've already seen some estimates, of revenue and units, from traditionally accurate sources, but Apple will certainly bolster that with November financials, as you state.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 136
    melgross said:

    tht said:
    brucemc said:
    Wait, so benchmarks and specs matter now? Or only matter because they’re ones where Apple comes out on top? How about doing a review of the phone using this chip and compare everyday usage to the XS. Is the OS fast and smooth? Do apps and websites launch quickly? How’s the camera? How does their version of portrait mode compare to Apple’s? Geekbench scores means nothing to most people.
    You always state this drivel each time such an article is posted.

    And the answer is always the same.  Of course "performance" matters - it always has.

    As I have stated many times, what isn't as relevant are pure component "specs" (which is what the PC heads always liked to trumpet), as that is only a part of of performance, and it depends on implementation.
    - number of transistors
    - clock speed
    - amount of RAM

    This is a great post! And this message needs to be repeated every time in performance comparisons.

    rogifan conflated benchmarks with specs. They are not the same thing. Benchmarks are measures of performance of a system. “Specs” in computer vernacular is a description of the hardware. You can infer performance from specs if you understand the hardware, but companies and the media use specs as advertising or propaganda, and zero knowledge is imparted when discussing specs. Hence, specs don’t matter in the vast majority of communications about computers. Really, it’s now to the point that zero information is passed when someone says this computer has a Core i5 processor. It’s now the equivalent of saying a computer has a “CPU”.

    What matters is performance, and performance relative to human perceived scales. I don’t think people really can tell the difference for something like 500 ms latencies or so. Ie, one app starts in 250 ms versus another app in 500 ms. But when app starts in 5 seconds versus 10 seconds, that is a big win. Or a video transcode that takes half as long, or views that scroll smoothly with low latency.

    Benchmarks measure performance. They do not measure specs. It can be repeated enough, specs are merely descriptions of the hardware. Benchmarks measure how well it works.

    And all those camera performance comparisons are a putrid mess. If I don’t see calibration posters taken under controlled conditions, (and better yet numerical analysis of pictures of those posters), I skip right past the camera section. These gadget reviewers don’t even bother with a control device like a DSLR. Then, they put an outsized value on the smallest little differences in image quality, below the threshold of what most humans would consider good image. They also put an outsized value on the camera in smartphones itself.
    Since commercial photography was most of my career, I’m bothered by a lot of camera “testing” that I see these days on sites, done by someone who knows nothing about photography, or the equipment.

    you really have to understand photography, the way sensors work, and the way exposure systems work. You also should understand the concepts of exposure, contrast and saturation. They have nothing more than a rumentary understanding of any of that.
    Mel - Let us be realistic. Ever since cameras are available in phones, the vast majority of photos being taken are by amateurs and quality is also amateur. The quantity of professional photos being taken is a very small minority now. This was not the case even 2 decades back. Given this situation, it is not surprising that amateurs end up reviewing the quality of cameras in smartphones, instead of professionals. That would give a realistic picture of how the photos taken by common people would look like, right?
    gatorguyavon b7watto_cobra
  • Reply 47 of 136
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,832member
    melgross said:

    tht said:
    brucemc said:
    Wait, so benchmarks and specs matter now? Or only matter because they’re ones where Apple comes out on top? How about doing a review of the phone using this chip and compare everyday usage to the XS. Is the OS fast and smooth? Do apps and websites launch quickly? How’s the camera? How does their version of portrait mode compare to Apple’s? Geekbench scores means nothing to most people.
    You always state this drivel each time such an article is posted.

    And the answer is always the same.  Of course "performance" matters - it always has.

    As I have stated many times, what isn't as relevant are pure component "specs" (which is what the PC heads always liked to trumpet), as that is only a part of of performance, and it depends on implementation.
    - number of transistors
    - clock speed
    - amount of RAM

    This is a great post! And this message needs to be repeated every time in performance comparisons.

    rogifan conflated benchmarks with specs. They are not the same thing. Benchmarks are measures of performance of a system. “Specs” in computer vernacular is a description of the hardware. You can infer performance from specs if you understand the hardware, but companies and the media use specs as advertising or propaganda, and zero knowledge is imparted when discussing specs. Hence, specs don’t matter in the vast majority of communications about computers. Really, it’s now to the point that zero information is passed when someone says this computer has a Core i5 processor. It’s now the equivalent of saying a computer has a “CPU”.

    What matters is performance, and performance relative to human perceived scales. I don’t think people really can tell the difference for something like 500 ms latencies or so. Ie, one app starts in 250 ms versus another app in 500 ms. But when app starts in 5 seconds versus 10 seconds, that is a big win. Or a video transcode that takes half as long, or views that scroll smoothly with low latency.

    Benchmarks measure performance. They do not measure specs. It can be repeated enough, specs are merely descriptions of the hardware. Benchmarks measure how well it works.

    And all those camera performance comparisons are a putrid mess. If I don’t see calibration posters taken under controlled conditions, (and better yet numerical analysis of pictures of those posters), I skip right past the camera section. These gadget reviewers don’t even bother with a control device like a DSLR. Then, they put an outsized value on the smallest little differences in image quality, below the threshold of what most humans would consider good image. They also put an outsized value on the camera in smartphones itself.
    Since commercial photography was most of my career, I’m bothered by a lot of camera “testing” that I see these days on sites, done by someone who knows nothing about photography, or the equipment.

    you really have to understand photography, the way sensors work, and the way exposure systems work. You also should understand the concepts of exposure, contrast and saturation. They have nothing more than a rumentary understanding of any of that.
    Mel - Let us be realistic. Ever since cameras are available in phones, the vast majority of photos being taken are by amateurs and quality is also amateur. The quantity of professional photos being taken is a very small minority now. This was not the case even 2 decades back. Given this situation, it is not surprising that amateurs end up reviewing the quality of cameras in smartphones, instead of professionals. That would give a realistic picture of how the photos taken by common people would look like, right?
    I think that all of the flagship phones take excellent photos in daylight, and a few do better than the others in low light. Certainly there are people pining for even better IQ and features, but for the most part, phones have been "good enough" for the typical smartphone user for a couple of years. It's good for halo products and bragging rights to have the "best" still images compared to the competition, though I'm not sure if it really translates to increased sales.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 48 of 136
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,056member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    This is incorrect:

    "Huawei's expensive new Mate 20 Pro flagship copies Apple's design and price, but sells in a market where Androids are cheap

    Huawei is just now trying to sell devices priced like a Galaxy Note or Apple's iPhone lineup"

    Huawei doesn't copy Apple's design or price. It had plus $1,000 smartphones long before the 1,000 dollar iPhone even existed and still has phones that almost double the price of iPhone X. I don't see the Mate 20 camera setup on any iPhone, nor the hidden speaker grill, nor the ribbed finish, nor the curved screen. 

    This is also incorrect:

    "But despite using the same fab process, Huawei's Kirin 980-powered Mate 20 Pro flagship lags far behind Apple's iPhone XS A12, turning in performance scores well below last year's A11 iPhone X."

    Performance of what? A SoC is many things. The Kirin 980 includes modem and wi-fi, both of which are seemingly far ahead of Apple on 'performance'. It also includes the NPU where the Kirin 970 NPU not only performed better than the A11 Neural Engine, but was put to better use throughout the phone. I haven't seen NPU comparisons for K980/A12 yet.

    What you are talking about is the cores and Huawei is using the very latest ARM CPU/GPU designs and has more than enough speed.

    That said, in spite of being 'slower', the Mate 20 series (and P20 Pro/Mate 10 before it) has managed to 'outperform' Apple literally all over the rest of the phone.

    40W wired ultra fast charging (1% in 30 seconds)
    15W wireless charging
    Reverse charging
    Tri Camera
    3x optical zoom
    5x hybrid zoom
    3D object modelling
    Cat 21 modem
    Ultra fast wi-fi
    Dual frequency GPS
    AIIS 
    Night Mode
    Expandable storage
    True dual SIM
    In screen ultrasonic fingerprint sensor
    Wireless desktop mode
    Balong 5000 compatibility

    The Mate 20 X also uses graphene and vapour chamber cooling. The Mate RS uses micro capsule cooling.

    The new iPhone (A12 included) was basically overshadowed in terms of attention even in Apple circles by ... the Apple Watch. 

    Speed gives you .... speed. The A11 had plenty. I don't remember anyone saying they noticed a lack of it. The A12 brings even more.

    Will most Apple users really notice a dramatic improvement? I very much doubt it. FaceID is faster but no one said it was slow to begin with. Will WhatsApp open faster? 

    Phones are more than speed. It's been that way for a few years now. Phones are about other areas. Areas where Apple is painfully lacking right now (see above), especially in terms of innovation.

    As Counterpoint recently said, 'Apple has been leapfrogged'.

    The Mate 20 Series launched on Tuesday. The new iPhones launched four weeks before. The iPhones will not change for another, and whopping eleven months!

    Next up is Honor and the Magic 2 (October 31st) and before you can say 'S10' the P30 will be on us! The bar has been set high and will go far higher before the next iPhone refresh.

    And the Mate series is the 'boring' series. LOL.

    Apple uses the words 'best', 'fastest', 'most advanced' all over the place but limits comparisons to .... other iPhones!

    While we wait for reviews to corroborate what was presented on Tuesday (essential step) it is clear that Huawei has given the Samsung and Apple cages a good rattling by just presenting what they revealed on Tuesday. I say corroboration is essential as Huawei took  only about 5 minutes to claim the Mate 20 Pro opened the top 50 apps from the Play Store far faster than the iPhone Xs Max (A12 and all). That is a performance metric that does matter.

    ''Performance' (in the context of this article) is the least of Huawei's worries. The goal was to have a well balanced SoC. According to Anandtech, that goal looks to have been largely achieved.

    Focusing on 'performance' and simply ignoring the rest, is 'not seeing the forest for the trees'.

    Looking ahead, far from rumours of a Kirin 990, rumours swirled in June around a Kirin 1020. That in addition to persistent rumours of an in-house GPU.

    Speed itself is simply not enough to be a differentiating factor nowadays, and anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to take a long hard look at what Huawei has put into this new series.

    One analyst said Samsung is now in 'full on panic mode'. I think Apple is in a similar situation and needs to shift up a gear. We need a Schiller moment:

    'Can't innovate, my ass!'

    But please Phil, no cylinder iPhone!

    Competition is the only way these technologies can be realised. We all win.

    Apple has done an amazing job with the A12. The problem is elsewhere.

    As for this piece, something is telling and is summed up here:

    https://www.newsweek.com/rise-huawei-how-smartphone-maker-conquering-tech-world-without-us-1176300

    Which is basically tied to this in some ways

    https://www.newsweek.com/iphone-killer-ditching-apple-new-huawei-p20-pro-887208

    That was on a phone launched in March and little has changed since then on the Apple front. Ironic that the author attempts to paint a picture of Huawei being 'a year behind' when, by the time Apple can catch Huawei's Night Mode for example, it will be well over a year behind. And what about the rest?

    The next step is to simply see how the Mate 20 holds up in real world use. The proof is always in the pudding and we will have wait. I always take PR and marketing at face value but going by the presentation and early full reviews using pre-production software, things don't look too shabby. We will see.










    Blah blah blah. Nobody gives a flying eff about your Huawei shilling, lies or spin.
    So. That's it? That's all you have?

    Wow!

    The spin is in the article. The 'damage control' (as you tried to claim) was also in the article.

    The article only existed to pull attention away from the reality. Huawei was getting a lot of attention for the right reasons. The iPhone Xs Max was used (along with the Samsung S9+) during the presentation to highlight the strengths of the Mate 20 series. Are you surprised?

    Well, the new 2018 iPhone didn't fair too well in front of those thousands who watched the presentation in the hall. Are you surprised?

    As with all presentations - including Apple's - what is NOT said, is often more interesting than what IS said but those details always float to the surface at some point so you can be sure that Huawei will squeeze all it can out of every event. Are you surprised?

    Now, if you offered iPhone users the choice of a new A12 model or an A11 model - but with a Mate 20 Pro feature set - most takers would be for the latter. Of that I am convinced and that is what you should be reflecting on.

    Along with why Apple only ships its new 1,000 dollar phones with 50 cent chargers and without headphone jack adaptors etc. Not even a plastic case or factory applied screen protector (standard on many Huawei phones).
    iPhone is a market in itself, and as part of Apple's ecosystem advantage, Apple doesn't need to expend effort adding all of those features that are needed to differentiate Android OS devices like the Chinese OEM's and Samsung have to do. Apple adds features when it fits their roadmap, and when it can add those same features in volume across its product lines.

    I think that it's fine for Huawei to strive to obtain the best and most features in a device, and I expect that Samsung will response in kind, tit fo tat, but with an expected stronger processor than the Kirin 980.

    Meanwhile, I'm not noticing any substantial advantages to the Mate product line over the iPhone X models, whatever your list, and certainly a heck of a lot of advantages to iOS and Apple's ecosystem over Android OS. You still are in denial about iPhone X sales, and I'm expecting that you will be in denial when Apple announces its financials for this quarter in January. You have yet to acknowledge that Apple's business model is superior to it's competition.

    Still, I find it amusing that every manufacturer has to compare its products to Apple's. Funny how that works.
    iPhone is part of the worldwide smartphone market. It isn't a market to itself but if you wish to view it that way, then Huawei and Samsung are markets to themselves too.

    There is nothing to stop users switching - if they want.

    Each manufacturer would like to retain users but people switch. That's the nature of the game. They will switch less from iOS to Android but there are switchers all the same. Enough to warrant Huawei including iPhones in its migration app.

    I am not in denial about iPhone X sales. I said each quarter would probably see less shipments than the preceding quarter and that is literally all I have said apart from the only way to evaluate iPhone X sales would be on full year results. Full year results aren't in yet and I have seen nothing to show iPhone X sales increasing QoQ.

    "Meanwhile, I'm not noticing any substantial advantages to the Mate product line over the iPhone X models, whatever your list."

    No substantial advantages? Wow. Re-read the list. It's not me who is in denial. It's you! LOL.

    It wasn't even a complete list. Just off the top of my head.

    Apple's business model is not superior to Huawei's. Apple sits on the last step of mobile communications, handsets (that represents a huge part of its income). That is in fact a very unbalanced situation and is why Apple is desperately trying to alter its business model over the last 24 months and into the future (car tech and content creation for example).

    Huawei sits on every step of mobile communications and Apple pays millions to Huawei for use of its patents. Handsets are not even Huawei's core business.

    "A
    pple adds features when it fits their roadmap, and when it can add those same features in volume across its product lines."

    And there lies at least part of the problem: Dynamics.

    Apple is a sloth in one of the world's most dynamic markets. Struggling to be up to date as the market (80% of which is currently out of its hands) swirls around it in ebullition.

    If iPhones and iOS were, as you imply, separate and largely unaffected by Android handset movements, this article would never have been written. Pure and simple.

    'Apple's roadmap' is part of the problem and part of the risk. Huawei is constantly delivering what users request and delivering the goods into all price bands. Apple is limiting what users get.

    This should sound very familiar. Remember large screen iPhones? Yeah.

    The Mate 10 was ahead if the iPhone X in many ways. The P20 Pro extended the lead. The Mate 20 adds still more.

    You are waiting for a tri camera iPhone. Enjoy the wait because you have at least 11 months to go. That's not a year behind. That will be well over a year behind.

    There comes a point when people grow envious of this kind of feature and when it's not one feature, but a whole raft, people begin looking at their brand new ultra slow chargers and asking themselves if Apple's roadmap is really where they want to be.

    That's why articles like this pop up.


  • Reply 49 of 136
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,832member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    This is incorrect:

    "Huawei's expensive new Mate 20 Pro flagship copies Apple's design and price, but sells in a market where Androids are cheap

    Huawei is just now trying to sell devices priced like a Galaxy Note or Apple's iPhone lineup"

    Huawei doesn't copy Apple's design or price. It had plus $1,000 smartphones long before the 1,000 dollar iPhone even existed and still has phones that almost double the price of iPhone X. I don't see the Mate 20 camera setup on any iPhone, nor the hidden speaker grill, nor the ribbed finish, nor the curved screen. 

    This is also incorrect:

    "But despite using the same fab process, Huawei's Kirin 980-powered Mate 20 Pro flagship lags far behind Apple's iPhone XS A12, turning in performance scores well below last year's A11 iPhone X."

    Performance of what? A SoC is many things. The Kirin 980 includes modem and wi-fi, both of which are seemingly far ahead of Apple on 'performance'. It also includes the NPU where the Kirin 970 NPU not only performed better than the A11 Neural Engine, but was put to better use throughout the phone. I haven't seen NPU comparisons for K980/A12 yet.

    What you are talking about is the cores and Huawei is using the very latest ARM CPU/GPU designs and has more than enough speed.

    That said, in spite of being 'slower', the Mate 20 series (and P20 Pro/Mate 10 before it) has managed to 'outperform' Apple literally all over the rest of the phone.

    40W wired ultra fast charging (1% in 30 seconds)
    15W wireless charging
    Reverse charging
    Tri Camera
    3x optical zoom
    5x hybrid zoom
    3D object modelling
    Cat 21 modem
    Ultra fast wi-fi
    Dual frequency GPS
    AIIS 
    Night Mode
    Expandable storage
    True dual SIM
    In screen ultrasonic fingerprint sensor
    Wireless desktop mode
    Balong 5000 compatibility

    The Mate 20 X also uses graphene and vapour chamber cooling. The Mate RS uses micro capsule cooling.

    The new iPhone (A12 included) was basically overshadowed in terms of attention even in Apple circles by ... the Apple Watch. 

    Speed gives you .... speed. The A11 had plenty. I don't remember anyone saying they noticed a lack of it. The A12 brings even more.

    Will most Apple users really notice a dramatic improvement? I very much doubt it. FaceID is faster but no one said it was slow to begin with. Will WhatsApp open faster? 

    Phones are more than speed. It's been that way for a few years now. Phones are about other areas. Areas where Apple is painfully lacking right now (see above), especially in terms of innovation.

    As Counterpoint recently said, 'Apple has been leapfrogged'.

    The Mate 20 Series launched on Tuesday. The new iPhones launched four weeks before. The iPhones will not change for another, and whopping eleven months!

    Next up is Honor and the Magic 2 (October 31st) and before you can say 'S10' the P30 will be on us! The bar has been set high and will go far higher before the next iPhone refresh.

    And the Mate series is the 'boring' series. LOL.

    Apple uses the words 'best', 'fastest', 'most advanced' all over the place but limits comparisons to .... other iPhones!

    While we wait for reviews to corroborate what was presented on Tuesday (essential step) it is clear that Huawei has given the Samsung and Apple cages a good rattling by just presenting what they revealed on Tuesday. I say corroboration is essential as Huawei took  only about 5 minutes to claim the Mate 20 Pro opened the top 50 apps from the Play Store far faster than the iPhone Xs Max (A12 and all). That is a performance metric that does matter.

    ''Performance' (in the context of this article) is the least of Huawei's worries. The goal was to have a well balanced SoC. According to Anandtech, that goal looks to have been largely achieved.

    Focusing on 'performance' and simply ignoring the rest, is 'not seeing the forest for the trees'.

    Looking ahead, far from rumours of a Kirin 990, rumours swirled in June around a Kirin 1020. That in addition to persistent rumours of an in-house GPU.

    Speed itself is simply not enough to be a differentiating factor nowadays, and anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to take a long hard look at what Huawei has put into this new series.

    One analyst said Samsung is now in 'full on panic mode'. I think Apple is in a similar situation and needs to shift up a gear. We need a Schiller moment:

    'Can't innovate, my ass!'

    But please Phil, no cylinder iPhone!

    Competition is the only way these technologies can be realised. We all win.

    Apple has done an amazing job with the A12. The problem is elsewhere.

    As for this piece, something is telling and is summed up here:

    https://www.newsweek.com/rise-huawei-how-smartphone-maker-conquering-tech-world-without-us-1176300

    Which is basically tied to this in some ways

    https://www.newsweek.com/iphone-killer-ditching-apple-new-huawei-p20-pro-887208

    That was on a phone launched in March and little has changed since then on the Apple front. Ironic that the author attempts to paint a picture of Huawei being 'a year behind' when, by the time Apple can catch Huawei's Night Mode for example, it will be well over a year behind. And what about the rest?

    The next step is to simply see how the Mate 20 holds up in real world use. The proof is always in the pudding and we will have wait. I always take PR and marketing at face value but going by the presentation and early full reviews using pre-production software, things don't look too shabby. We will see.










    Blah blah blah. Nobody gives a flying eff about your Huawei shilling, lies or spin.
    So. That's it? That's all you have?

    Wow!

    The spin is in the article. The 'damage control' (as you tried to claim) was also in the article.

    The article only existed to pull attention away from the reality. Huawei was getting a lot of attention for the right reasons. The iPhone Xs Max was used (along with the Samsung S9+) during the presentation to highlight the strengths of the Mate 20 series. Are you surprised?

    Well, the new 2018 iPhone didn't fair too well in front of those thousands who watched the presentation in the hall. Are you surprised?

    As with all presentations - including Apple's - what is NOT said, is often more interesting than what IS said but those details always float to the surface at some point so you can be sure that Huawei will squeeze all it can out of every event. Are you surprised?

    Now, if you offered iPhone users the choice of a new A12 model or an A11 model - but with a Mate 20 Pro feature set - most takers would be for the latter. Of that I am convinced and that is what you should be reflecting on.

    Along with why Apple only ships its new 1,000 dollar phones with 50 cent chargers and without headphone jack adaptors etc. Not even a plastic case or factory applied screen protector (standard on many Huawei phones).
    iPhone is a market in itself, and as part of Apple's ecosystem advantage, Apple doesn't need to expend effort adding all of those features that are needed to differentiate Android OS devices like the Chinese OEM's and Samsung have to do. Apple adds features when it fits their roadmap, and when it can add those same features in volume across its product lines.

    I think that it's fine for Huawei to strive to obtain the best and most features in a device, and I expect that Samsung will response in kind, tit fo tat, but with an expected stronger processor than the Kirin 980.

    Meanwhile, I'm not noticing any substantial advantages to the Mate product line over the iPhone X models, whatever your list, and certainly a heck of a lot of advantages to iOS and Apple's ecosystem over Android OS. You still are in denial about iPhone X sales, and I'm expecting that you will be in denial when Apple announces its financials for this quarter in January. You have yet to acknowledge that Apple's business model is superior to it's competition.

    Still, I find it amusing that every manufacturer has to compare its products to Apple's. Funny how that works.
    iPhone is part of the worldwide smartphone market. It isn't a market to itself but if you wish to view it that way, then Huawei and Samsung are markets to themselves too.

    There is nothing to stop users switching - if they want.

    Each manufacturer would like to retain users but people switch. That's the nature of the game. They will switch less from iOS to Android but there are switchers all the same. Enough to warrant Huawei including iPhones in its migration app.

    I am not in denial about iPhone X sales. I said each quarter would probably see less shipments than the preceding quarter and that is literally all I have said apart from the only way to evaluate iPhone X sales would be on full year results. Full year results aren't in yet and I have seen nothing to show iPhone X sales increasing QoQ.

    "Meanwhile, I'm not noticing any substantial advantages to the Mate product line over the iPhone X models, whatever your list."

    No substantial advantages? Wow. Re-read the list. It's not me who is in denial. It's you! LOL.

    It wasn't even a complete list. Just off the top of my head.

    Apple's business model is not superior to Huawei's. Apple sits on the last step of mobile communications, handsets (that represents a huge part of its income). That is in fact a very unbalanced situation and is why Apple is desperately trying to alter its business model over the last 24 months and into the future (car tech and content creation for example).

    Huawei sits on every step of mobile communications and Apple pays millions to Huawei for use of its patents. Handsets are not even Huawei's core business.

    "Apple adds features when it fits their roadmap, and when it can add those same features in volume across its product lines."

    And there lies at least part of the problem: Dynamics.

    Apple is a sloth in one of the world's most dynamic markets. Struggling to be up to date as the market (80% of which is currently out of its hands) swirls around it in ebullition.

    If iPhones and iOS were, as you imply, separate and largely unaffected by Android handset movements, this article would never have been written. Pure and simple.

    'Apple's roadmap' is part of the problem and part of the risk. Huawei is constantly delivering what users request and delivering the goods into all price bands. Apple is limiting what users get.

    This should sound very familiar. Remember large screen iPhones? Yeah.

    The Mate 10 was ahead if the iPhone X in many ways. The P20 Pro extended the lead. The Mate 20 adds still more.

    You are waiting for a tri camera iPhone. Enjoy the wait because you have at least 11 months to go. That's not a year behind. That will be well over a year behind.

    There comes a point when people grow envious of this kind of feature and when it's not one feature, but a whole raft, people begin looking at their brand new ultra slow chargers and asking themselves if Apple's roadmap is really where they want to be.

    That's why articles like this pop up.


    `If hardware features was the only consideration in purchasing a smartphone, you would be correct.

    It isn't, no matter how much you attempt to make it so.

    StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 50 of 136
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 4,753administrator
    Let's turn down the personal invectives, please.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 51 of 136
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    This is incorrect:

    "Huawei's expensive new Mate 20 Pro flagship copies Apple's design and price, but sells in a market where Androids are cheap

    Huawei is just now trying to sell devices priced like a Galaxy Note or Apple's iPhone lineup"

    Huawei doesn't copy Apple's design or price. It had plus $1,000 smartphones long before the 1,000 dollar iPhone even existed and still has phones that almost double the price of iPhone X. I don't see the Mate 20 camera setup on any iPhone, nor the hidden speaker grill, nor the ribbed finish, nor the curved screen. 

    This is also incorrect:

    "But despite using the same fab process, Huawei's Kirin 980-powered Mate 20 Pro flagship lags far behind Apple's iPhone XS A12, turning in performance scores well below last year's A11 iPhone X."

    Performance of what? A SoC is many things. The Kirin 980 includes modem and wi-fi, both of which are seemingly far ahead of Apple on 'performance'. It also includes the NPU where the Kirin 970 NPU not only performed better than the A11 Neural Engine, but was put to better use throughout the phone. I haven't seen NPU comparisons for K980/A12 yet.

    What you are talking about is the cores and Huawei is using the very latest ARM CPU/GPU designs and has more than enough speed.

    That said, in spite of being 'slower', the Mate 20 series (and P20 Pro/Mate 10 before it) has managed to 'outperform' Apple literally all over the rest of the phone.

    40W wired ultra fast charging (1% in 30 seconds)
    15W wireless charging
    Reverse charging
    Tri Camera
    3x optical zoom
    5x hybrid zoom
    3D object modelling
    Cat 21 modem
    Ultra fast wi-fi
    Dual frequency GPS
    AIIS 
    Night Mode
    Expandable storage
    True dual SIM
    In screen ultrasonic fingerprint sensor
    Wireless desktop mode
    Balong 5000 compatibility

    The Mate 20 X also uses graphene and vapour chamber cooling. The Mate RS uses micro capsule cooling.

    The new iPhone (A12 included) was basically overshadowed in terms of attention even in Apple circles by ... the Apple Watch. 

    Speed gives you .... speed. The A11 had plenty. I don't remember anyone saying they noticed a lack of it. The A12 brings even more.

    Will most Apple users really notice a dramatic improvement? I very much doubt it. FaceID is faster but no one said it was slow to begin with. Will WhatsApp open faster? 

    Phones are more than speed. It's been that way for a few years now. Phones are about other areas. Areas where Apple is painfully lacking right now (see above), especially in terms of innovation.

    As Counterpoint recently said, 'Apple has been leapfrogged'.

    The Mate 20 Series launched on Tuesday. The new iPhones launched four weeks before. The iPhones will not change for another, and whopping eleven months!

    Next up is Honor and the Magic 2 (October 31st) and before you can say 'S10' the P30 will be on us! The bar has been set high and will go far higher before the next iPhone refresh.

    And the Mate series is the 'boring' series. LOL.

    Apple uses the words 'best', 'fastest', 'most advanced' all over the place but limits comparisons to .... other iPhones!

    While we wait for reviews to corroborate what was presented on Tuesday (essential step) it is clear that Huawei has given the Samsung and Apple cages a good rattling by just presenting what they revealed on Tuesday. I say corroboration is essential as Huawei took  only about 5 minutes to claim the Mate 20 Pro opened the top 50 apps from the Play Store far faster than the iPhone Xs Max (A12 and all). That is a performance metric that does matter.

    ''Performance' (in the context of this article) is the least of Huawei's worries. The goal was to have a well balanced SoC. According to Anandtech, that goal looks to have been largely achieved.

    Focusing on 'performance' and simply ignoring the rest, is 'not seeing the forest for the trees'.

    Looking ahead, far from rumours of a Kirin 990, rumours swirled in June around a Kirin 1020. That in addition to persistent rumours of an in-house GPU.

    Speed itself is simply not enough to be a differentiating factor nowadays, and anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to take a long hard look at what Huawei has put into this new series.

    One analyst said Samsung is now in 'full on panic mode'. I think Apple is in a similar situation and needs to shift up a gear. We need a Schiller moment:

    'Can't innovate, my ass!'

    But please Phil, no cylinder iPhone!

    Competition is the only way these technologies can be realised. We all win.

    Apple has done an amazing job with the A12. The problem is elsewhere.

    As for this piece, something is telling and is summed up here:

    https://www.newsweek.com/rise-huawei-how-smartphone-maker-conquering-tech-world-without-us-1176300

    Which is basically tied to this in some ways

    https://www.newsweek.com/iphone-killer-ditching-apple-new-huawei-p20-pro-887208

    That was on a phone launched in March and little has changed since then on the Apple front. Ironic that the author attempts to paint a picture of Huawei being 'a year behind' when, by the time Apple can catch Huawei's Night Mode for example, it will be well over a year behind. And what about the rest?

    The next step is to simply see how the Mate 20 holds up in real world use. The proof is always in the pudding and we will have wait. I always take PR and marketing at face value but going by the presentation and early full reviews using pre-production software, things don't look too shabby. We will see.










    Blah blah blah. Nobody gives a flying eff about your Huawei shilling, lies or spin.
    So. That's it? That's all you have?

    Wow!

    The spin is in the article. The 'damage control' (as you tried to claim) was also in the article.

    The article only existed to pull attention away from the reality. Huawei was getting a lot of attention for the right reasons.
    What a nonsense conspiracy theory. No, your chinese-knockoff is getting attention for its inability to create. It's obvious when you see all the blatant, shameless IP theft copying they do, ad it's being noted:

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/10/16/huawei-ripoff-express

    And twitter convo here:


    - copies the iPhone X notch 
    - copies icons (Health, Music, Settings, Phone)
    - copies tons of UI like camera including the Live Photo icon
    - copies battery icon when charging




    ...and they really go all-out in copying the entire Camera app UI:




    So no matter how much you cheerlead them, the truth is apparent -- they're just another chinese ripoff brand. They'll likely never gain legitimacy, unless they stop copying.

    edited October 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 52 of 136
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    This is incorrect:

    "Huawei's expensive new Mate 20 Pro flagship copies Apple's design and price, but sells in a market where Androids are cheap

    Huawei is just now trying to sell devices priced like a Galaxy Note or Apple's iPhone lineup"

    Huawei doesn't copy Apple's design or price. It had plus $1,000 smartphones long before the 1,000 dollar iPhone even existed and still has phones that almost double the price of iPhone X. I don't see the Mate 20 camera setup on any iPhone, nor the hidden speaker grill, nor the ribbed finish, nor the curved screen. 

    This is also incorrect:

    "But despite using the same fab process, Huawei's Kirin 980-powered Mate 20 Pro flagship lags far behind Apple's iPhone XS A12, turning in performance scores well below last year's A11 iPhone X."

    Performance of what? A SoC is many things. The Kirin 980 includes modem and wi-fi, both of which are seemingly far ahead of Apple on 'performance'. It also includes the NPU where the Kirin 970 NPU not only performed better than the A11 Neural Engine, but was put to better use throughout the phone. I haven't seen NPU comparisons for K980/A12 yet.

    What you are talking about is the cores and Huawei is using the very latest ARM CPU/GPU designs and has more than enough speed.

    That said, in spite of being 'slower', the Mate 20 series (and P20 Pro/Mate 10 before it) has managed to 'outperform' Apple literally all over the rest of the phone.

    40W wired ultra fast charging (1% in 30 seconds)
    15W wireless charging
    Reverse charging
    Tri Camera
    3x optical zoom
    5x hybrid zoom
    3D object modelling
    Cat 21 modem
    Ultra fast wi-fi
    Dual frequency GPS
    AIIS 
    Night Mode
    Expandable storage
    True dual SIM
    In screen ultrasonic fingerprint sensor
    Wireless desktop mode
    Balong 5000 compatibility

    The Mate 20 X also uses graphene and vapour chamber cooling. The Mate RS uses micro capsule cooling.

    The new iPhone (A12 included) was basically overshadowed in terms of attention even in Apple circles by ... the Apple Watch. 

    Speed gives you .... speed. The A11 had plenty. I don't remember anyone saying they noticed a lack of it. The A12 brings even more.

    Will most Apple users really notice a dramatic improvement? I very much doubt it. FaceID is faster but no one said it was slow to begin with. Will WhatsApp open faster? 

    Phones are more than speed. It's been that way for a few years now. Phones are about other areas. Areas where Apple is painfully lacking right now (see above), especially in terms of innovation.

    As Counterpoint recently said, 'Apple has been leapfrogged'.

    The Mate 20 Series launched on Tuesday. The new iPhones launched four weeks before. The iPhones will not change for another, and whopping eleven months!

    Next up is Honor and the Magic 2 (October 31st) and before you can say 'S10' the P30 will be on us! The bar has been set high and will go far higher before the next iPhone refresh.

    And the Mate series is the 'boring' series. LOL.

    Apple uses the words 'best', 'fastest', 'most advanced' all over the place but limits comparisons to .... other iPhones!

    While we wait for reviews to corroborate what was presented on Tuesday (essential step) it is clear that Huawei has given the Samsung and Apple cages a good rattling by just presenting what they revealed on Tuesday. I say corroboration is essential as Huawei took  only about 5 minutes to claim the Mate 20 Pro opened the top 50 apps from the Play Store far faster than the iPhone Xs Max (A12 and all). That is a performance metric that does matter.

    ''Performance' (in the context of this article) is the least of Huawei's worries. The goal was to have a well balanced SoC. According to Anandtech, that goal looks to have been largely achieved.

    Focusing on 'performance' and simply ignoring the rest, is 'not seeing the forest for the trees'.

    Looking ahead, far from rumours of a Kirin 990, rumours swirled in June around a Kirin 1020. That in addition to persistent rumours of an in-house GPU.

    Speed itself is simply not enough to be a differentiating factor nowadays, and anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to take a long hard look at what Huawei has put into this new series.

    One analyst said Samsung is now in 'full on panic mode'. I think Apple is in a similar situation and needs to shift up a gear. We need a Schiller moment:

    'Can't innovate, my ass!'

    But please Phil, no cylinder iPhone!

    Competition is the only way these technologies can be realised. We all win.

    Apple has done an amazing job with the A12. The problem is elsewhere.

    As for this piece, something is telling and is summed up here:

    https://www.newsweek.com/rise-huawei-how-smartphone-maker-conquering-tech-world-without-us-1176300

    Which is basically tied to this in some ways

    https://www.newsweek.com/iphone-killer-ditching-apple-new-huawei-p20-pro-887208

    That was on a phone launched in March and little has changed since then on the Apple front. Ironic that the author attempts to paint a picture of Huawei being 'a year behind' when, by the time Apple can catch Huawei's Night Mode for example, it will be well over a year behind. And what about the rest?

    The next step is to simply see how the Mate 20 holds up in real world use. The proof is always in the pudding and we will have wait. I always take PR and marketing at face value but going by the presentation and early full reviews using pre-production software, things don't look too shabby. We will see.










    Blah blah blah. Nobody gives a flying eff about your Huawei shilling, lies or spin.
    So. That's it? That's all you have?

    Wow!

    The spin is in the article. The 'damage control' (as you tried to claim) was also in the article.

    The article only existed to pull attention away from the reality. Huawei was getting a lot of attention for the right reasons. The iPhone Xs Max was used (along with the Samsung S9+) during the presentation to highlight the strengths of the Mate 20 series. Are you surprised?

    Well, the new 2018 iPhone didn't fair too well in front of those thousands who watched the presentation in the hall. Are you surprised?

    As with all presentations - including Apple's - what is NOT said, is often more interesting than what IS said but those details always float to the surface at some point so you can be sure that Huawei will squeeze all it can out of every event. Are you surprised?

    Now, if you offered iPhone users the choice of a new A12 model or an A11 model - but with a Mate 20 Pro feature set - most takers would be for the latter. Of that I am convinced and that is what you should be reflecting on.

    Along with why Apple only ships its new 1,000 dollar phones with 50 cent chargers and without headphone jack adaptors etc. Not even a plastic case or factory applied screen protector (standard on many Huawei phones).
    iPhone is a market in itself, and as part of Apple's ecosystem advantage, Apple doesn't need to expend effort adding all of those features that are needed to differentiate Android OS devices like the Chinese OEM's and Samsung have to do. Apple adds features when it fits their roadmap, and when it can add those same features in volume across its product lines.

    I think that it's fine for Huawei to strive to obtain the best and most features in a device, and I expect that Samsung will response in kind, tit fo tat, but with an expected stronger processor than the Kirin 980.

    Meanwhile, I'm not noticing any substantial advantages to the Mate product line over the iPhone X models, whatever your list, and certainly a heck of a lot of advantages to iOS and Apple's ecosystem over Android OS. You still are in denial about iPhone X sales, and I'm expecting that you will be in denial when Apple announces its financials for this quarter in January. You have yet to acknowledge that Apple's business model is superior to it's competition.

    Still, I find it amusing that every manufacturer has to compare its products to Apple's. Funny how that works.
    Apple's business model is not superior to Huawei's.
    Uh no. Profit is the metric of health and superiority of a business model. Apple was months from bankruptcy, but now has vast holdings due to immense collection of profit. This is all the confirmation that is needed -- they have a superior business model. It's what put them into the position they're in now, not magic pixie dust.
    tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 53 of 136
    thttht Posts: 3,240member
    tmay said:
    melgross said:
    Since commercial photography was most of my career, I’m bothered by a lot of camera “testing” that I see these days on sites, done by someone who knows nothing about photography, or the equipment.

    you really have to understand photography, the way sensors work, and the way exposure systems work. You also should understand the concepts of exposure, contrast and saturation. They have nothing more than a rumentary understanding of any of that.
    Mel - Let us be realistic. Ever since cameras are available in phones, the vast majority of photos being taken are by amateurs and quality is also amateur. The quantity of professional photos being taken is a very small minority now. This was not the case even 2 decades back. Given this situation, it is not surprising that amateurs end up reviewing the quality of cameras in smartphones, instead of professionals. That would give a realistic picture of how the photos taken by common people would look like, right?
    I think that all of the flagship phones take excellent photos in daylight, and a few do better than the others in low light. Certainly there are people pining for even better IQ and features, but for the most part, phones have been "good enough" for the typical smartphone user for a couple of years. It's good for halo products and bragging rights to have the "best" still images compared to the competition, though I'm not sure if it really translates to increased sales.
    Having great performance in one feature of a smartphone isn’t enough, and it has to be buyer perceivable. The product may find a niche to live in, but it’s not going to dent the market in a significant way. Gadget reviewers have an outsized impression of how customers view camera performance, a whole host of other features too, likely because taking pictures is a big part of their business. It’s been years now that gadget reviewers would proclaim this or that product was successful because of the camera, and I would bet a lot they thought this because they mostly talk to follow gadget media types.

    What, half the market (?) probably treats camera performance with nothing be apathy and a significant fraction of that probably don’t even take videos and maybe take one or two pictures a year, if that.

    And yes, gadget reviewers suck at reviews. This was true back at least 11 years ago when I started getting more exposure to it after the iPhone came out. PC reviewers would benchmark like crazy (not so much anymore), but gadget reviewers are mostly about feelings. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 54 of 136
    thttht Posts: 3,240member
    As if benchmarks proof a good platform or even SOC. Huawei not unlike Apple optimize both their hard- and software to make to most out of their handsets. I've never had such a smooth handset as the P20 Pro even though it is loosing on the majority of benchmarks. I had several Samsung and Sony handsets before and even if they had (in benchmarks at least) the far better CPUs I experienced a lot of stutterings and slow apps startups etc. It is never about the benchmarks but the whole handset and there my friends Apple is loosing more and more ground. May it be the camera, may it be the screen, may it be even the look, may it be [...]. Chinese companies will soon take over the whole market (bypassing south coreans by far) by not just copying but also implement countless of extra features in their handsets (like reverse wireless charging, bigger batteries, better cameras etc. etc.). And believe it or not making money is not only selling premium phones...
    Kind of hard to not talk about premium phones when comparing other smartphones to iPhones. Apple only sells premium phones.

    To continue the tirade over performance, Apple tries to design a product that is impactful over a wide spectrum of experience, and tries to make a distinguishable difference to a wide audience. Sometimes they fail, sometimes they miss, but they don’t stop trying to do it. Features should make a difference to as many buyers as possible. They often will not race to have the latest hardware. 

    Apple hasn’t used high power charging (“fast” charging) as an advertised feature for virtually all their products, and have designed virtually all of their battery powered products for a single day’s usage. That’s about 10 hrs for laptops, tablets and smartphones. The Watch is about 18 hrs. AirPods are about 20 hrs with 30 min charge cycles every 4 hours or so.

    They don’t do this “just because” or that they are unable to put a larger capacity battery in them, which is one of the easiest things to do in product design. They are not stupid. Think about why they do this. They have a certain insight as to why 10 hrs is a the right number. Huawei phones aren’t the first to have large batteries and advertise 20+ hrs of runtime, or to have fast charging times. If it was important, the market would have spoken, and we’d see the majority of phones with 20 hr runtimes. There are good reasons for that and it definitely involves how most humans do things.

    The same goes for cellular radios. They won’t implement a feature first if most customers won’t experience it. They will gladly wait a year or two. People who will benefit from Gigabit LTE are a small subset of the market. Almost anything above 100 Mbit/s networking only benefits a small portion of the market. This is going to be a slow march to maturity, and being first really doesn’t buy a product that much. Even in Ethernet networks, where 1 GBit/s is mostly useful (SSD storage getting more and more common), 10 GBit/s Ethernet has been wallowing for years now. Do people use it in server farms? Or is that Fibre Channel still? Will consumer computers ever have 10 GBit/s Ethernet? Answer seems no as even GBit/s Ethernet ports are going away.

    So, Huawei has to choose their features carefully. They did well with their premium tier last Fall. The threat isn’t from Apple. They’ve mostly chosen to race with feature-itis like camera count, mAH, networking, charging W, etc. Other phone vendors will catch up in terms of those types of things, and there’s going to be a time when these features just won’t matter to customers anymore. (Most of the P20 phone feature list doesn’t really matter much imo). That’s when the bottom falls out.
    tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 55 of 136
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,894member
    The Verge actually ran a very timely and very good article about the Chinese phone makers here:
    https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/17/17988564/chinese-phone-software-android-iphone-copy-ui

    Explains why the OS looks like it does, the photos are color-tuned and/or smoothed as they are, why the UI's are so intricate rather than simple. Very worthwhile reading. 
    edited October 2018 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 56 of 136
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,832member
    tht said:
    As if benchmarks proof a good platform or even SOC. Huawei not unlike Apple optimize both their hard- and software to make to most out of their handsets. I've never had such a smooth handset as the P20 Pro even though it is loosing on the majority of benchmarks. I had several Samsung and Sony handsets before and even if they had (in benchmarks at least) the far better CPUs I experienced a lot of stutterings and slow apps startups etc. It is never about the benchmarks but the whole handset and there my friends Apple is loosing more and more ground. May it be the camera, may it be the screen, may it be even the look, may it be [...]. Chinese companies will soon take over the whole market (bypassing south coreans by far) by not just copying but also implement countless of extra features in their handsets (like reverse wireless charging, bigger batteries, better cameras etc. etc.). And believe it or not making money is not only selling premium phones...
    Kind of hard to not talk about premium phones when comparing other smartphones to iPhones. Apple only sells premium phones.

    To continue the tirade over performance, Apple tries to design a product that is impactful over a wide spectrum of experience, and tries to make a distinguishable difference to a wide audience. Sometimes they fail, sometimes they miss, but they don’t stop trying to do it. Features should make a difference to as many buyers as possible. They often will not race to have the latest hardware. 

    Apple hasn’t used high power charging (“fast” charging) as an advertised feature for virtually all their products, and have designed virtually all of their battery powered products for a single day’s usage. That’s about 10 hrs for laptops, tablets and smartphones. The Watch is about 18 hrs. AirPods are about 20 hrs with 30 min charge cycles every 4 hours or so.

    They don’t do this “just because” or that they are unable to put a larger capacity battery in them, which is one of the easiest things to do in product design. They are not stupid. Think about why they do this. They have a certain insight as to why 10 hrs is a the right number. Huawei phones aren’t the first to have large batteries and advertise 20+ hrs of runtime, or to have fast charging times. If it was important, the market would have spoken, and we’d see the majority of phones with 20 hr runtimes. There are good reasons for that and it definitely involves how most humans do things.

    The same goes for cellular radios. They won’t implement a feature first if most customers won’t experience it. They will gladly wait a year or two. People who will benefit from Gigabit LTE are a small subset of the market. Almost anything above 100 Mbit/s networking only benefits a small portion of the market. This is going to be a slow march to maturity, and being first really doesn’t buy a product that much. Even in Ethernet networks, where 1 GBit/s is mostly useful (SSD storage getting more and more common), 10 GBit/s Ethernet has been wallowing for years now. Do people use it in server farms? Or is that Fibre Channel still? Will consumer computers ever have 10 GBit/s Ethernet? Answer seems no as even GBit/s Ethernet ports are going away.

    So, Huawei has to choose their features carefully. They did well with their premium tier last Fall. The threat isn’t from Apple. They’ve mostly chosen to race with feature-itis like camera count, mAH, networking, charging W, etc. Other phone vendors will catch up in terms of those types of things, and there’s going to be a time when these features just won’t matter to customers anymore. (Most of the P20 phone feature list doesn’t really matter much imo). That’s when the bottom falls out.
    I think Huawei is trying to race ahead of Samsung, and grab as much marketshare as they can before all of the Android OS device market is caught in a decreasing unit sales death spiral; right now, it's just flat. That's an expensive customer acquisition strategy, but who knows, it might work in the Android OS device market.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 57 of 136
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,832member
    gatorguy said:
    The Verge actually ran a very timely and very good article about the Chinese phone makers here:
    https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/17/17988564/chinese-phone-software-android-iphone-copy-ui

    Explains why the OS looks like it does, the photos are color-tuned and/or smoothed as they are, why the UI's are so intricate rather than simple. Very worthwhile reading. 
    The author stated that there is a slow trend to a more minimalist interface, but OnePlus seems the only entity pushing that today. I thought it interesting that these "variants' of ASOP are so heavily customized, driven by customer input, and thus subject to the vagarity of fashion.
    edited October 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 58 of 136
    gatorguy said:
    The Verge actually ran a very timely and very good article about the Chinese phone makers here:
    https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/17/17988564/chinese-phone-software-android-iphone-copy-ui

    Explains why the OS looks like it does, the photos are color-tuned and/or smoothed as they are, why the UI's are so intricate rather than simple. Very worthwhile reading. 
    The knockoffs ripoff iOS and Apple because iOS is good, successful, and doing so is less work than inventing their own UI designs. In other words, being a schmuck.

    The ripoffs are shameless, especially Vivo’s "Funtouch OS":



    ...just like how I pointed this same app and the same copying to you in a previous thread, comparing it to iOS and circling the ripped off elements in red. Won't bother doing it again now. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 59 of 136
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,894member
    gatorguy said:
    The Verge actually ran a very timely and very good article about the Chinese phone makers here:
    https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/17/17988564/chinese-phone-software-android-iphone-copy-ui

    Explains why the OS looks like it does, the photos are color-tuned and/or smoothed as they are, why the UI's are so intricate rather than simple. Very worthwhile reading. 


    ...just like how I pointed this same app and the same copying to you in a previous thread, comparing it to iOS and circling the ripped off elements in red. Won't bother doing it again now. 
    Correct, why would you since we agreed? Not the only time we have either. 

    So what did you think of the Verge article? Learn anything you did not already know? I know I did. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 60 of 136
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,056member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    This is incorrect:

    "Huawei's expensive new Mate 20 Pro flagship copies Apple's design and price, but sells in a market where Androids are cheap

    Huawei is just now trying to sell devices priced like a Galaxy Note or Apple's iPhone lineup"

    Huawei doesn't copy Apple's design or price. It had plus $1,000 smartphones long before the 1,000 dollar iPhone even existed and still has phones that almost double the price of iPhone X. I don't see the Mate 20 camera setup on any iPhone, nor the hidden speaker grill, nor the ribbed finish, nor the curved screen. 

    This is also incorrect:

    "But despite using the same fab process, Huawei's Kirin 980-powered Mate 20 Pro flagship lags far behind Apple's iPhone XS A12, turning in performance scores well below last year's A11 iPhone X."

    Performance of what? A SoC is many things. The Kirin 980 includes modem and wi-fi, both of which are seemingly far ahead of Apple on 'performance'. It also includes the NPU where the Kirin 970 NPU not only performed better than the A11 Neural Engine, but was put to better use throughout the phone. I haven't seen NPU comparisons for K980/A12 yet.

    What you are talking about is the cores and Huawei is using the very latest ARM CPU/GPU designs and has more than enough speed.

    That said, in spite of being 'slower', the Mate 20 series (and P20 Pro/Mate 10 before it) has managed to 'outperform' Apple literally all over the rest of the phone.

    40W wired ultra fast charging (1% in 30 seconds)
    15W wireless charging
    Reverse charging
    Tri Camera
    3x optical zoom
    5x hybrid zoom
    3D object modelling
    Cat 21 modem
    Ultra fast wi-fi
    Dual frequency GPS
    AIIS 
    Night Mode
    Expandable storage
    True dual SIM
    In screen ultrasonic fingerprint sensor
    Wireless desktop mode
    Balong 5000 compatibility

    The Mate 20 X also uses graphene and vapour chamber cooling. The Mate RS uses micro capsule cooling.

    The new iPhone (A12 included) was basically overshadowed in terms of attention even in Apple circles by ... the Apple Watch. 

    Speed gives you .... speed. The A11 had plenty. I don't remember anyone saying they noticed a lack of it. The A12 brings even more.

    Will most Apple users really notice a dramatic improvement? I very much doubt it. FaceID is faster but no one said it was slow to begin with. Will WhatsApp open faster? 

    Phones are more than speed. It's been that way for a few years now. Phones are about other areas. Areas where Apple is painfully lacking right now (see above), especially in terms of innovation.

    As Counterpoint recently said, 'Apple has been leapfrogged'.

    The Mate 20 Series launched on Tuesday. The new iPhones launched four weeks before. The iPhones will not change for another, and whopping eleven months!

    Next up is Honor and the Magic 2 (October 31st) and before you can say 'S10' the P30 will be on us! The bar has been set high and will go far higher before the next iPhone refresh.

    And the Mate series is the 'boring' series. LOL.

    Apple uses the words 'best', 'fastest', 'most advanced' all over the place but limits comparisons to .... other iPhones!

    While we wait for reviews to corroborate what was presented on Tuesday (essential step) it is clear that Huawei has given the Samsung and Apple cages a good rattling by just presenting what they revealed on Tuesday. I say corroboration is essential as Huawei took  only about 5 minutes to claim the Mate 20 Pro opened the top 50 apps from the Play Store far faster than the iPhone Xs Max (A12 and all). That is a performance metric that does matter.

    ''Performance' (in the context of this article) is the least of Huawei's worries. The goal was to have a well balanced SoC. According to Anandtech, that goal looks to have been largely achieved.

    Focusing on 'performance' and simply ignoring the rest, is 'not seeing the forest for the trees'.

    Looking ahead, far from rumours of a Kirin 990, rumours swirled in June around a Kirin 1020. That in addition to persistent rumours of an in-house GPU.

    Speed itself is simply not enough to be a differentiating factor nowadays, and anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to take a long hard look at what Huawei has put into this new series.

    One analyst said Samsung is now in 'full on panic mode'. I think Apple is in a similar situation and needs to shift up a gear. We need a Schiller moment:

    'Can't innovate, my ass!'

    But please Phil, no cylinder iPhone!

    Competition is the only way these technologies can be realised. We all win.

    Apple has done an amazing job with the A12. The problem is elsewhere.

    As for this piece, something is telling and is summed up here:

    https://www.newsweek.com/rise-huawei-how-smartphone-maker-conquering-tech-world-without-us-1176300

    Which is basically tied to this in some ways

    https://www.newsweek.com/iphone-killer-ditching-apple-new-huawei-p20-pro-887208

    That was on a phone launched in March and little has changed since then on the Apple front. Ironic that the author attempts to paint a picture of Huawei being 'a year behind' when, by the time Apple can catch Huawei's Night Mode for example, it will be well over a year behind. And what about the rest?

    The next step is to simply see how the Mate 20 holds up in real world use. The proof is always in the pudding and we will have wait. I always take PR and marketing at face value but going by the presentation and early full reviews using pre-production software, things don't look too shabby. We will see.










    Blah blah blah. Nobody gives a flying eff about your Huawei shilling, lies or spin.
    So. That's it? That's all you have?

    Wow!

    The spin is in the article. The 'damage control' (as you tried to claim) was also in the article.

    The article only existed to pull attention away from the reality. Huawei was getting a lot of attention for the right reasons. The iPhone Xs Max was used (along with the Samsung S9+) during the presentation to highlight the strengths of the Mate 20 series. Are you surprised?

    Well, the new 2018 iPhone didn't fair too well in front of those thousands who watched the presentation in the hall. Are you surprised?

    As with all presentations - including Apple's - what is NOT said, is often more interesting than what IS said but those details always float to the surface at some point so you can be sure that Huawei will squeeze all it can out of every event. Are you surprised?

    Now, if you offered iPhone users the choice of a new A12 model or an A11 model - but with a Mate 20 Pro feature set - most takers would be for the latter. Of that I am convinced and that is what you should be reflecting on.

    Along with why Apple only ships its new 1,000 dollar phones with 50 cent chargers and without headphone jack adaptors etc. Not even a plastic case or factory applied screen protector (standard on many Huawei phones).
    iPhone is a market in itself, and as part of Apple's ecosystem advantage, Apple doesn't need to expend effort adding all of those features that are needed to differentiate Android OS devices like the Chinese OEM's and Samsung have to do. Apple adds features when it fits their roadmap, and when it can add those same features in volume across its product lines.

    I think that it's fine for Huawei to strive to obtain the best and most features in a device, and I expect that Samsung will response in kind, tit fo tat, but with an expected stronger processor than the Kirin 980.

    Meanwhile, I'm not noticing any substantial advantages to the Mate product line over the iPhone X models, whatever your list, and certainly a heck of a lot of advantages to iOS and Apple's ecosystem over Android OS. You still are in denial about iPhone X sales, and I'm expecting that you will be in denial when Apple announces its financials for this quarter in January. You have yet to acknowledge that Apple's business model is superior to it's competition.

    Still, I find it amusing that every manufacturer has to compare its products to Apple's. Funny how that works.
    Apple's business model is not superior to Huawei's.
    Uh no. Profit is the metric of health and superiority of a business model. Apple was months from bankruptcy, but now has vast holdings due to immense collection of profit. This is all the confirmation that is needed -- they have a superior business model. It's what put them into the position they're in now, not magic pixie dust.
    You are actually completely wrong on that. Profits are a simple indicator of current health.

    The business model - how you generate those profits - is different.

    Why not ask Imagination?

    Apple's business model became heavily weighted to mobile sales. When iPhone sales flattened out, Apple changed its makeup and began to look beyond mobile. We are literally in the middle of this change.
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