Just checked MacSales/OWC and their RAM for this model costs $169.99 vs the $200 upgrade price Apple charges ($188 if you qualify for their EPP and (possibly) educational discounts). I use MacSales all the time but regardless of the warranty, the price difference doesn't make sense to me considering the lack of ease in replacing it. Using cheaper RAM is not something I do or recommend so for those who just have to be able to change or upgrade RAM, good luck.
disclaimer: OWC charges $1079.99 for a full 64GB of RAM vs Apple's $1316 (EPP price) so it might be worth it if you really want to spend that much money on a Mac mini.
from https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205041 Couldn't quickly find actual warranty but when Apple says something like this, it sounds to me like they aren't allowing it.
We asked. We're also very clear in our warning about the procedure.
The fact you have to put back Apple's RAM if you need to go in for a repair should ring alarm bells here! That's also called deception in my book. What is the 'guidance' here on what to say if the Apple tech asks if you have replaced the RAM and put the Apple RAM back ... lie?
I always have upgraded my RAM (and internal storage) on any Mac I own (I keep them all a long time) where it is feasible even if difficult. However, never until my extended warranty is out. In my case, I make sure I purchase a Mac with the correct configuration for my needs for the two years under coverage. If you figure out what it costs to take out Apple's RAM and replace within those two years you have to add the two sets of RAM together to get the true cost unless you can get a trade in. I don't see how that can ever make mathematical sense otherwise. Two or three years later the cost of RAM has usually fallen enough to make that upgrade cost effective but even then you have to do the math. For my 2013 Mac Pro, it was nearly four years before that RAM was worth the cost and only then thanks to a trade in. It obviously varies but Apple never use cheap RAM so the calculations have to take that into account. On several Mac Mini 2012 models I have, it was a no-brainer to upgrade RAM and HDD to SSD at four years old, same with a 2010 MBP i7 15".
So the bottom line is this is a great article to file away for reference in two to three years.
That approach would have me struggling with insufficient RAM for two or three years. By the time you get around to increasing the RAM capacity, you're at the point where it's probably time to be thinking about whether other component developments have advanced enough to justify replacing the whole machine.
I'd rather get all the RAM I'm likely to need on Day One, and enjoy the full potential of the machine while the other components are still current.
auxio said: [...] Turned out that the RAM I bought didn't have error correction/ECC and the heat sinks on it were much smaller, one of which was the cause of my crashes. This was the reason that the RAM Apple used was a lot more expensive. The devil is in the details.
Good point.
Of course the comparisons in this thread ARE for identical RAM. Apple is charging almost twice as much as Crucial et al for exactly the same component.
And so you're either paying for the extra assembly line needed to build the machine, or you're paying for a service technician's time to install it. You do understand that, when you get someone else to do something for you, it's always going to cost a fair bit more than if you do it yourself right? People don't seem to have a problem paying extra for home renos/repairs, car repairs, etc. But they'll scream from the rooftops if it's for their computer.
Yes, I understand the points you've made. Your philosophical view ignores the very obvious practical reality. The issue is not that it costs more, but how MUCH more.
Just checked MacSales/OWC and their RAM for this model costs $169.99 vs the $200 upgrade price Apple charges ($188 if you qualify for their EPP and (possibly) educational discounts). I use MacSales all the time but regardless of the warranty, the price difference doesn't make sense to me considering the lack of ease in replacing it. Using cheaper RAM is not something I do or recommend so for those who just have to be able to change or upgrade RAM, good luck.
disclaimer: OWC charges $1079.99 for a full 64GB of RAM vs Apple's $1316 (EPP price) so it might be worth it if you really want to spend that much money on a Mac mini.
from https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205041 Couldn't quickly find actual warranty but when Apple says something like this, it sounds to me like they aren't allowing it.
We asked. We're also very clear in our warning about the procedure.
The fact you have to put back Apple's RAM if you need to go in for a repair should ring alarm bells here! That's also called deception in my book. What is the 'guidance' here on what to say if the Apple tech asks if you have replaced the RAM and put the Apple RAM back ... lie?
I always have upgraded my RAM (and internal storage) on any Mac I own (I keep them all a long time) where it is feasible even if difficult. However, never until my extended warranty is out. In my case, I make sure I purchase a Mac with the correct configuration for my needs for the two years under coverage. If you figure out what it costs to take out Apple's RAM and replace within those two years you have to add the two sets of RAM together to get the true cost unless you can get a trade in. I don't see how that can ever make mathematical sense otherwise. Two or three years later the cost of RAM has usually fallen enough to make that upgrade cost effective but even then you have to do the math. For my 2013 Mac Pro, it was nearly four years before that RAM was worth the cost and only then thanks to a trade in. It obviously varies but Apple never use cheap RAM so the calculations have to take that into account. On several Mac Mini 2012 models I have, it was a no-brainer to upgrade RAM and HDD to SSD at four years old, same with a 2010 MBP i7 15".
So the bottom line is this is a great article to file away for reference in two to three years.
That approach would have me struggling with insufficient RAM for two or three years. By the time you get around to increasing the RAM capacity, you're at the point where it's probably time to be thinking about whether other component developments have advanced enough to justify replacing the whole machine.
I'd rather get all the RAM I'm likely to need on Day One, and enjoy the full potential of the machine while the other components are still current.
"I'd rather get all the RAM I'm likely to need on Day One"
mmm... that's exactly what I said. I quote myself "In my case, I make sure I purchase a Mac with the correct configuration for my needs for the two years under coverage"
Previous version: soldered RAM, people complain. New version: slotted RAM, people complain.
Look man, if you're not comfortable using screwdrivers, you're not even a real DIY tinkerer, so why even both complaining since this is something only DIY folks do?
I am an avid tinkerer and maker, thank you. But upgrading RAM shouldn't be this risky for the average user. Apple could've made the RAM easier to access, but they decided otherwise. Which is a dick move.
The average user is NOT messing with this stuff...
Dunno why people are backing Apple on this one, it's a lazy implementation of a premium product and a crappy user experience. They managed to block more tinkerers from attempting to upgrade their own RAM. Fewer people will buy it and Apple will end-up discontinuing it.
Look, I'm someone who has done very difficult tinkering with computers in the past. For example, to get more performance out of an old G4 TiBook, I moved one of the resistors on the motherboard which controlled the CPU speed (the hardware equivalent of BIOS overclocking on PCs).
However, I also am open minded enough to see that I'm in a very small group of people who knows how to do this, cares about it, and/or is willing to spend my time doing it. And I also understand that it requires extra product design, engineering, and assembly line complexity to include a RAM access panel or similarly easy access. If this was an Arduino or Raspberry Pi type of device targeted at tinkerers, then I'd definitely question the decision. But because it's a device targeted at the mass market, I completely understand why it was made.
So you're saying that for a device to be user upgradable it must to fall in the category of an Arduino. Gotcha! Apple could've easily made the bottom twistable, or require a standard screwdriver, or even better, no screws at all, no hidden access points. Any combination of these efforts, which Apple has done beautifully in the past, would've kept the same circuitry yet made the RAM accessible.
Quit whining...the video doesn't look hard and you only need to do this maybe once.
While I don't understand Apple's reasoning for milling a hollow aluminum shell when they could cut costs and make it easier to design, assemble, and repair, this is probably one of the easiest Mac minis with this styling to work on.
I think the earliest ones had RAM bays fully accessible from the bottom without removing the logic board, but as iFixit notes it's easy to remove and doesn't require specialized parts. Access to the RAM is step 5 on their teardown.
I have several 2012 Mac minis and RAM was a 2-minute job. Now the HDD swapping to an SSD was a bitch!
Just checked MacSales/OWC and their RAM for this model costs $169.99 vs the $200 upgrade price Apple charges ($188 if you qualify for their EPP and (possibly) educational discounts). I use MacSales all the time but regardless of the warranty, the price difference doesn't make sense to me considering the lack of ease in replacing it. Using cheaper RAM is not something I do or recommend so for those who just have to be able to change or upgrade RAM, good luck.
disclaimer: OWC charges $1079.99 for a full 64GB of RAM vs Apple's $1316 (EPP price) so it might be worth it if you really want to spend that much money on a Mac mini.
from https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205041 Couldn't quickly find actual warranty but when Apple says something like this, it sounds to me like they aren't allowing it.
We asked. We're also very clear in our warning about the procedure.
The fact you have to put back Apple's RAM if you need to go in for a repair should ring alarm bells here! That's also called deception in my book. What is the 'guidance' here on what to say if the Apple tech asks if you have replaced the RAM and put the Apple RAM back ... lie?
I always have upgraded my RAM (and internal storage) on any Mac I own (I keep them all a long time) where it is feasible even if difficult. However, never until my extended warranty is out. In my case, I make sure I purchase a Mac with the correct configuration for my needs for the two years under coverage. If you figure out what it costs to take out Apple's RAM and replace within those two years you have to add the two sets of RAM together to get the true cost unless you can get a trade in. I don't see how that can ever make mathematical sense otherwise. Two or three years later the cost of RAM has usually fallen enough to make that upgrade cost effective but even then you have to do the math. For my 2013 Mac Pro, it was nearly four years before that RAM was worth the cost and only then thanks to a trade in. It obviously varies but Apple never use cheap RAM so the calculations have to take that into account. On several Mac Mini 2012 models I have, it was a no-brainer to upgrade RAM and HDD to SSD at four years old, same with a 2010 MBP i7 15".
So the bottom line is this is a great article to file away for reference in two to three years.
That approach would have me struggling with insufficient RAM for two or three years. By the time you get around to increasing the RAM capacity, you're at the point where it's probably time to be thinking about whether other component developments have advanced enough to justify replacing the whole machine.
I'd rather get all the RAM I'm likely to need on Day One, and enjoy the full potential of the machine while the other components are still current.
"I'd rather get all the RAM I'm likely to need on Day One"
mmm... that's exactly what I said. I quote myself "In my case, I make sure I purchase a Mac with the correct configuration for my needs for the two years under coverage"
Just checked MacSales/OWC and their RAM for this model costs $169.99 vs the $200 upgrade price Apple charges ($188 if you qualify for their EPP and (possibly) educational discounts). I use MacSales all the time but regardless of the warranty, the price difference doesn't make sense to me considering the lack of ease in replacing it. Using cheaper RAM is not something I do or recommend so for those who just have to be able to change or upgrade RAM, good luck.
disclaimer: OWC charges $1079.99 for a full 64GB of RAM vs Apple's $1316 (EPP price) so it might be worth it if you really want to spend that much money on a Mac mini.
from https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205041 Couldn't quickly find actual warranty but when Apple says something like this, it sounds to me like they aren't allowing it.
We asked. We're also very clear in our warning about the procedure.
The fact you have to put back Apple's RAM if you need to go in for a repair should ring alarm bells here! That's also called deception in my book. What is the 'guidance' here on what to say if the Apple tech asks if you have replaced the RAM and put the Apple RAM back ... lie?
I only have a single personal anecdote in which to pull from. This was well around 2004, I'm guessing, with the PowerPC Macs. I had upgraded the RAM in my PowerBook. Everything was working fine for about two months, I'd say, and then came a macOS nee Mac OS X update.
After that I started having various issues which ranged from complete failures to weird graphics issue. Reinstalling the OS didn't seem to resolve the issues. Still under warranty I sent my notebook to Apple.
They sent it back a couple days later with my 3rd-party RAM removed, Apple RAM installed that matched the original specs of the machine, a fresh install of Mac OS X, and no charge. I didn't supply them my original RAM because it never occurred to me that the 3rd-party RAM I had installed many weeks earlier would be the issue.
I ended up sending that RAM back to the manufacture—which was a much bigger PITA and longer process than sending to Apple. After a lengthy phone call, I think it included going to their website to find an RMA sheet, which then had to be printed out, and then manually filled out, and then faxed back to them at my expense. I also had to pay for shipping the RAM back to them.
Now, I usually just buy the maximum RAM because I'm not sure Apple is as gracious with repairs as it was back then and ain't nobody got time for that shit.
Previous version: soldered RAM, people complain. New version: slotted RAM, people complain.
Look man, if you're not comfortable using screwdrivers, you're not even a real DIY tinkerer, so why even both complaining since this is something only DIY folks do?
I am an avid tinkerer and maker, thank you. But upgrading RAM shouldn't be this risky for the average user. Apple could've made the RAM easier to access, but they decided otherwise. Which is a dick move.
The average user is NOT messing with this stuff...
Dunno why people are backing Apple on this one, it's a lazy implementation of a premium product and a crappy user experience. They managed to block more tinkerers from attempting to upgrade their own RAM. Fewer people will buy it and Apple will end-up discontinuing it.
Look, I'm someone who has done very difficult tinkering with computers in the past. For example, to get more performance out of an old G4 TiBook, I moved one of the resistors on the motherboard which controlled the CPU speed (the hardware equivalent of BIOS overclocking on PCs).
However, I also am open minded enough to see that I'm in a very small group of people who knows how to do this, cares about it, and/or is willing to spend my time doing it. And I also understand that it requires extra product design, engineering, and assembly line complexity to include a RAM access panel or similarly easy access. If this was an Arduino or Raspberry Pi type of device targeted at tinkerers, then I'd definitely question the decision. But because it's a device targeted at the mass market, I completely understand why it was made.
So you're saying that for a device to be user upgradable it must to fall in the category of an Arduino. Gotcha! Apple could've easily made the bottom twistable, or require a standard screwdriver, or even better, no screws at all, no hidden access points. Any combination of these efforts, which Apple has done beautifully in the past, would've kept the same circuitry yet made the RAM accessible.
Quit whining...the video doesn't look hard and you only need to do this maybe once.
While I don't understand Apple's reasoning for milling a hollow aluminum shell when they could cut costs and make it easier to design, assemble, and repair, this is probably one of the easiest Mac minis with this styling to work on.
I think the earliest ones had RAM bays fully accessible from the bottom without removing the logic board, but as iFixit notes it's easy to remove and doesn't require specialized parts. Access to the RAM is step 5 on their teardown.
I have several 2012 Mac minis and RAM was a 2-minute job. Now the HDD swapping to an SSD was a bitch!
I have a 2014 Mac mini that could use my old 2.5" SSD but I don't want to go through the effort of digging down to that HDD.
StrangeDays said: Remember when computers were really slow and had shitty battery life? Yeah, those were the days.
(how on earth you dont believe speed & usefulness are "function" is beyond me. but thankfully you dont build computers for a living)
I'm not sure what one has to do with the other though. Those don't seem to be mutually exclusive design criteria.
randominternetperson said: Apparently owning and knowing how to use the strap is sufficient. Actually using it is not necessary. At least that's what I observe in the video.
Pretty much. I've changed hundreds of RAM chips w/o such a strap. The strap is more to help prevent issues by the people who don't know hot to discharge static... and if you do, you probably do it more reliably than the strap does anyway.
StrangeDays said: Being aware of problems: nowhere near as value-adding as, you know, fixing problems.
(Sure do wish the forum software worked properly on an iPad.)
Heh, I wish this forum was based on a more forum-like forum... but I'm getting by. I'm glad it exists at all.
StrangeDays said: Previous version: soldered RAM, people complain.
New version: slotted RAM, people complain. Look man, if you're not comfortable using screwdrivers, you're not even a real DIY tinkerer, so why even both complaining since this is something only DIY folks do?
Well, to be fair, if it were just a door with slots easily accessible, I'd put my own RAM in, even if it saved little to no money. And, I have years of DIY and repair experience. So, I think it's a valid argument to wish Apple had made it more accessible. That said, given the target market, and that maybe that impacted other design constraints, this seems a reasonable compromise.
If Apple did it *just* to up-sell RAM, then it would be a big reason to complain. Some of Apple's products seem to be that way, but we'd probably have to try and *guess* on a case-by-case basis.
Yes, they are mutually exclusive design criteria. Older PCs and notebooks were much easier to work on because of laxer thermal constraints and generally simpler hardware designs based on lower capabilities. It's exactly the same as with cars (and software actually). Our new machines do more, and are much more complicated, and are harder to service. It's not coincidence, it's a direct result.
As a former PC tech and current software dev, this just strikes me as common sense but so many seem to struggle with it.
Previous version: soldered RAM, people complain. New version: slotted RAM, people complain.
Look man, if you're not comfortable using screwdrivers, you're not even a real DIY tinkerer, so why even both complaining since this is something only DIY folks do?
I am an avid tinkerer and maker, thank you. But upgrading RAM shouldn't be this risky for the average user. Apple could've made the RAM easier to access, but they decided otherwise. Which is a dick move.
The average user is NOT messing with this stuff...
Dunno why people are backing Apple on this one, it's a lazy implementation of a premium product and a crappy user experience. They managed to block more tinkerers from attempting to upgrade their own RAM. Fewer people will buy it and Apple will end-up discontinuing it.
Look, I'm someone who has done very difficult tinkering with computers in the past. For example, to get more performance out of an old G4 TiBook, I moved one of the resistors on the motherboard which controlled the CPU speed (the hardware equivalent of BIOS overclocking on PCs).
However, I also am open minded enough to see that I'm in a very small group of people who knows how to do this, cares about it, and/or is willing to spend my time doing it. And I also understand that it requires extra product design, engineering, and assembly line complexity to include a RAM access panel or similarly easy access. If this was an Arduino or Raspberry Pi type of device targeted at tinkerers, then I'd definitely question the decision. But because it's a device targeted at the mass market, I completely understand why it was made.
So you're saying that for a device to be user upgradable it must to fall in the category of an Arduino. Gotcha!
Nope, you missed the point and changed the language to fit your own personal agenda. To tie my original point in with your agenda, replace the term user upgradeable with tinkerer upgradeable and then it fits. The word user means the entire group of people who will use this computer. But the reality is that DIY upgrades are only done by a very small subset of Mac Mini users (what I define as tinkerers).
But I understand that you're so deep in your rabbit hole that it's difficult to see the big picture, so let me try another way of thinking about it. Try to name any other mass market electronic device or appliance which is designed to have the hardware components within it be user upgradeable (TV, stereo, microwave oven, dishwasher, refrigerator, etc). Like it or not, mass market computers are appliances for the vast majority of people (users).
Just checked MacSales/OWC and their RAM for this model costs $169.99 vs the $200 upgrade price Apple charges ($188 if you qualify for their EPP and (possibly) educational discounts). I use MacSales all the time but regardless of the warranty, the price difference doesn't make sense to me considering the lack of ease in replacing it. Using cheaper RAM is not something I do or recommend so for those who just have to be able to change or upgrade RAM, good luck.
disclaimer: OWC charges $1079.99 for a full 64GB of RAM vs Apple's $1316 (EPP price) so it might be worth it if you really want to spend that much money on a Mac mini.
from https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205041 Couldn't quickly find actual warranty but when Apple says something like this, it sounds to me like they aren't allowing it.
We asked. We're also very clear in our warning about the procedure.
The fact you have to put back Apple's RAM if you need to go in for a repair should ring alarm bells here! That's also called deception in my book. What is the 'guidance' here on what to say if the Apple tech asks if you have replaced the RAM and put the Apple RAM back ... lie?
I always have upgraded my RAM (and internal storage) on any Mac I own (I keep them all a long time) where it is feasible even if difficult. However, never until my extended warranty is out. In my case, I make sure I purchase a Mac with the correct configuration for my needs for the two years under coverage. If you figure out what it costs to take out Apple's RAM and replace within those two years you have to add the two sets of RAM together to get the true cost unless you can get a trade in. I don't see how that can ever make mathematical sense otherwise. Two or three years later the cost of RAM has usually fallen enough to make that upgrade cost effective but even then you have to do the math. For my 2013 Mac Pro, it was nearly four years before that RAM was worth the cost and only then thanks to a trade in. It obviously varies but Apple never use cheap RAM so the calculations have to take that into account. On several Mac Mini 2012 models I have, it was a no-brainer to upgrade RAM and HDD to SSD at four years old, same with a 2010 MBP i7 15".
So the bottom line is this is a great article to file away for reference in two to three years.
That approach would have me struggling with insufficient RAM for two or three years. By the time you get around to increasing the RAM capacity, you're at the point where it's probably time to be thinking about whether other component developments have advanced enough to justify replacing the whole machine.
I'd rather get all the RAM I'm likely to need on Day One, and enjoy the full potential of the machine while the other components are still current.
"I'd rather get all the RAM I'm likely to need on Day One"
mmm... that's exactly what I said. I quote myself "In my case, I make sure I purchase a Mac with the correct configuration for my needs for the two years under coverage"
auxio said: [...] Turned out that the RAM I bought didn't have error correction/ECC and the heat sinks on it were much smaller, one of which was the cause of my crashes. This was the reason that the RAM Apple used was a lot more expensive. The devil is in the details.
Good point.
Of course the comparisons in this thread ARE for identical RAM. Apple is charging almost twice as much as Crucial et al for exactly the same component.
And so you're either paying for the extra assembly line needed to build the machine, or you're paying for a service technician's time to install it. You do understand that, when you get someone else to do something for you, it's always going to cost a fair bit more than if you do it yourself right? People don't seem to have a problem paying extra for home renos/repairs, car repairs, etc. But they'll scream from the rooftops if it's for their computer.
Yes, I understand the points you've made. Your philosophical view ignores the very obvious practical reality. The issue is not that it costs more, but how MUCH more.
And how much is your time worth? You expect to get paid well enough to live decently for whatever you do for a living, so why can't others demand the same? I don't know about the cost of setting up and maintaining that assembly line relative to the number of people who will choose to buy a Mac Mini which isn't the standard configuration. However, the hourly wage of a service technician (plus training, benefits, the cost of providing the space where they work, tools, etc) certainly isn't negligible.
Previous version: soldered RAM, people complain. New version: slotted RAM, people complain.
Look man, if you're not comfortable using screwdrivers, you're not even a real DIY tinkerer, so why even both complaining since this is something only DIY folks do?
I am an avid tinkerer and maker, thank you. But upgrading RAM shouldn't be this risky for the average user. Apple could've made the RAM easier to access, but they decided otherwise. Which is a dick move.
The average user is NOT messing with this stuff...
Dunno why people are backing Apple on this one, it's a lazy implementation of a premium product and a crappy user experience. They managed to block more tinkerers from attempting to upgrade their own RAM. Fewer people will buy it and Apple will end-up discontinuing it.
Look, I'm someone who has done very difficult tinkering with computers in the past. For example, to get more performance out of an old G4 TiBook, I moved one of the resistors on the motherboard which controlled the CPU speed (the hardware equivalent of BIOS overclocking on PCs).
However, I also am open minded enough to see that I'm in a very small group of people who knows how to do this, cares about it, and/or is willing to spend my time doing it. And I also understand that it requires extra product design, engineering, and assembly line complexity to include a RAM access panel or similarly easy access. If this was an Arduino or Raspberry Pi type of device targeted at tinkerers, then I'd definitely question the decision. But because it's a device targeted at the mass market, I completely understand why it was made.
So you're saying that for a device to be user upgradable it must to fall in the category of an Arduino. Gotcha! Apple could've easily made the bottom twistable, or require a standard screwdriver, or even better, no screws at all, no hidden access points. Any combination of these efforts, which Apple has done beautifully in the past, would've kept the same circuitry yet made the RAM accessible.
Quit whining...the video doesn't look hard and you only need to do this maybe once.
While I don't understand Apple's reasoning for milling a hollow aluminum shell when they could cut costs and make it easier to design, assemble, and repair, this is probably one of the easiest Mac minis with this styling to work on.
I think the earliest ones had RAM bays fully accessible from the bottom without removing the logic board, but as iFixit notes it's easy to remove and doesn't require specialized parts. Access to the RAM is step 5 on their teardown.
I have several 2012 Mac minis and RAM was a 2-minute job. Now the HDD swapping to an SSD was a bitch!
I have a 2014 Mac mini that could use my old 2.5" SSD but I don't want to go through the effort of digging down to that HDD.
I am not 100% but I think the 2014 model is even more of a bitch to change the HHD out. I kick myself that when I had my 2012's open I didn't just add a SATA extender and take the connection outside. I could then so easily have swapped out and upsized the SSDs over time.
Previous version: soldered RAM, people complain. New version: slotted RAM, people complain.
Look man, if you're not comfortable using screwdrivers, you're not even a real DIY tinkerer, so why even both complaining since this is something only DIY folks do?
I am an avid tinkerer and maker, thank you. But upgrading RAM shouldn't be this risky for the average user. Apple could've made the RAM easier to access, but they decided otherwise. Which is a dick move.
The average user is NOT messing with this stuff...
Dunno why people are backing Apple on this one, it's a lazy implementation of a premium product and a crappy user experience. They managed to block more tinkerers from attempting to upgrade their own RAM. Fewer people will buy it and Apple will end-up discontinuing it.
Look, I'm someone who has done very difficult tinkering with computers in the past. For example, to get more performance out of an old G4 TiBook, I moved one of the resistors on the motherboard which controlled the CPU speed (the hardware equivalent of BIOS overclocking on PCs).
However, I also am open minded enough to see that I'm in a very small group of people who knows how to do this, cares about it, and/or is willing to spend my time doing it. And I also understand that it requires extra product design, engineering, and assembly line complexity to include a RAM access panel or similarly easy access. If this was an Arduino or Raspberry Pi type of device targeted at tinkerers, then I'd definitely question the decision. But because it's a device targeted at the mass market, I completely understand why it was made.
So you're saying that for a device to be user upgradable it must to fall in the category of an Arduino. Gotcha!
Nope, you missed the point and changed the language to fit your own personal agenda. To tie my original point in with your agenda, replace the term user upgradeable with tinkerer upgradeable and then it fits. The word user means the entire group of people who will use this computer. But the reality is that DIY upgrades are only done by a very small subset of Mac Mini users (what I define as tinkerers).
But I understand that you're so deep in your rabbit hole that it's difficult to see the big picture, so let me try another way of thinking about it. Try to name any other mass market electronic device or appliance which is designed to have the hardware components within it be user upgradeable (TV, stereo, microwave oven, dishwasher, refrigerator, etc). Like it or not, mass market computers are appliances for the vast majority of people (users).
I see this opinion a lot, and it's certainly true that at least Apple shares that view. I haven't decided whether I think that's a good long-term approach for manufacturers, though.
iPad or iPhone, that's an appliance like a washing machine. Something intended for a market of professional users, maybe not. You and I may not tune the performance of our cars, but a racing driver does. You may not modify your home stereo system, but a professional studio is as likely as not to modify a console/preamp/whatever.
I'm not disagreeing with you, you're clearly right about Apple's philosophy, but I do wonder if it's one worth reconsidering for their "pro" products.
Previous version: soldered RAM, people complain. New version: slotted RAM, people complain.
Look man, if you're not comfortable using screwdrivers, you're not even a real DIY tinkerer, so why even both complaining since this is something only DIY folks do?
I am an avid tinkerer and maker, thank you. But upgrading RAM shouldn't be this risky for the average user. Apple could've made the RAM easier to access, but they decided otherwise. Which is a dick move.
The average user is NOT messing with this stuff...
Dunno why people are backing Apple on this one, it's a lazy implementation of a premium product and a crappy user experience. They managed to block more tinkerers from attempting to upgrade their own RAM. Fewer people will buy it and Apple will end-up discontinuing it.
Look, I'm someone who has done very difficult tinkering with computers in the past. For example, to get more performance out of an old G4 TiBook, I moved one of the resistors on the motherboard which controlled the CPU speed (the hardware equivalent of BIOS overclocking on PCs).
However, I also am open minded enough to see that I'm in a very small group of people who knows how to do this, cares about it, and/or is willing to spend my time doing it. And I also understand that it requires extra product design, engineering, and assembly line complexity to include a RAM access panel or similarly easy access. If this was an Arduino or Raspberry Pi type of device targeted at tinkerers, then I'd definitely question the decision. But because it's a device targeted at the mass market, I completely understand why it was made.
So you're saying that for a device to be user upgradable it must to fall in the category of an Arduino. Gotcha! Apple could've easily made the bottom twistable, or require a standard screwdriver, or even better, no screws at all, no hidden access points. Any combination of these efforts, which Apple has done beautifully in the past, would've kept the same circuitry yet made the RAM accessible.
Quit whining...the video doesn't look hard and you only need to do this maybe once.
While I don't understand Apple's reasoning for milling a hollow aluminum shell when they could cut costs and make it easier to design, assemble, and repair, this is probably one of the easiest Mac minis with this styling to work on.
I think the earliest ones had RAM bays fully accessible from the bottom without removing the logic board, but as iFixit notes it's easy to remove and doesn't require specialized parts. Access to the RAM is step 5 on their teardown.
I have several 2012 Mac minis and RAM was a 2-minute job. Now the HDD swapping to an SSD was a bitch!
I have a 2014 Mac mini that could use my old 2.5" SSD but I don't want to go through the effort of digging down to that HDD.
I am not 100% but I think the 2014 model is even more of a bitch to change the HHD out. I kick myself that when I had my 2012's open I didn't just add a SATA extender and take the connection outside. I could then so easily have swapped out and upsized the SSDs over time.
As I recall, that was only an option if you also got that SSD for a Fusion Drive setup.
auxio said: [...] Turned out that the RAM I bought didn't have error correction/ECC and the heat sinks on it were much smaller, one of which was the cause of my crashes. This was the reason that the RAM Apple used was a lot more expensive. The devil is in the details.
Good point.
Of course the comparisons in this thread ARE for identical RAM. Apple is charging almost twice as much as Crucial et al for exactly the same component.
And so you're either paying for the extra assembly line needed to build the machine, or you're paying for a service technician's time to install it. You do understand that, when you get someone else to do something for you, it's always going to cost a fair bit more than if you do it yourself right? People don't seem to have a problem paying extra for home renos/repairs, car repairs, etc. But they'll scream from the rooftops if it's for their computer.
Yes, I understand the points you've made. Your philosophical view ignores the very obvious practical reality. The issue is not that it costs more, but how MUCH more.
And how much is your time worth? You expect to get paid well enough to live decently for whatever you do for a living, so why can't others demand the same? I don't know about the cost of setting up and maintaining that assembly line relative to the number of people who will choose to buy a Mac Mini which isn't the standard configuration. However, the hourly wage of a service technician (plus training, benefits, the cost of providing the space where they work, tools, etc) certainly isn't negligible.
Yet HP manages to offer its quite excellent Z-series workstations at prices roughly equivalent to Apple's pro line, AND offer upgrades at prices close to "going rate."
I mention this not to suggest that Apple and HP are equivalent, but simply to refute the argument that Apple's upgrade prices are extremely high because cost recovery makes them so. I can't imagine other suppliers are realizing lower assembly costs than Apple, yet they don't impose such premiums on custom configurations.
Just checked MacSales/OWC and their RAM for this model costs $169.99 vs the $200 upgrade price Apple charges ($188 if you qualify for their EPP and (possibly) educational discounts). I use MacSales all the time but regardless of the warranty, the price difference doesn't make sense to me considering the lack of ease in replacing it. Using cheaper RAM is not something I do or recommend so for those who just have to be able to change or upgrade RAM, good luck.
disclaimer: OWC charges $1079.99 for a full 64GB of RAM vs Apple's $1316 (EPP price) so it might be worth it if you really want to spend that much money on a Mac mini.
from https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205041 Couldn't quickly find actual warranty but when Apple says something like this, it sounds to me like they aren't allowing it.
We asked. We're also very clear in our warning about the procedure.
The fact you have to put back Apple's RAM if you need to go in for a repair should ring alarm bells here! That's also called deception in my book. What is the 'guidance' here on what to say if the Apple tech asks if you have replaced the RAM and put the Apple RAM back ... lie?
I only have a single personal anecdote in which to pull from. This was well around 2004, I'm guessing, with the PowerPC Macs. I had upgraded the RAM in my PowerBook. Everything was working fine for about two months, I'd say, and then came a macOS nee Mac OS X update.
After that I started having various issues which ranged from complete failures to weird graphics issue. Reinstalling the OS didn't seem to resolve the issues. Still under warranty I sent my notebook to Apple.
They sent it back a couple days later with my 3rd-party RAM removed, Apple RAM installed that matched the original specs of the machine, a fresh install of Mac OS X, and no charge. I didn't supply them my original RAM because it never occurred to me that the 3rd-party RAM I had installed many weeks earlier would be the issue.
I ended up sending that RAM back to the manufacture—which was a much bigger PITA and longer process than sending to Apple. After a lengthy phone call, I think it included going to their website to find an RMA sheet, which then had to be printed out, and then manually filled out, and then faxed back to them at my expense. I also had to pay for shipping the RAM back to them.
Now, I usually just buy the maximum RAM because I'm not sure Apple is as gracious with repairs as it was back then and ain't nobody got time for that shit.
I think you are exactly right, times have changed. Back when I owned a major share in numerous Apple Dealerships we never minded if such things had been done as long as the problem wasn't obviously caused by the owner in the process. Now it's a whole new ball game as they say.
Previous version: soldered RAM, people complain. New version: slotted RAM, people complain.
Look man, if you're not comfortable using screwdrivers, you're not even a real DIY tinkerer, so why even both complaining since this is something only DIY folks do?
I am an avid tinkerer and maker, thank you. But upgrading RAM shouldn't be this risky for the average user. Apple could've made the RAM easier to access, but they decided otherwise. Which is a dick move.
The average user is NOT messing with this stuff...
Dunno why people are backing Apple on this one, it's a lazy implementation of a premium product and a crappy user experience. They managed to block more tinkerers from attempting to upgrade their own RAM. Fewer people will buy it and Apple will end-up discontinuing it.
Look, I'm someone who has done very difficult tinkering with computers in the past. For example, to get more performance out of an old G4 TiBook, I moved one of the resistors on the motherboard which controlled the CPU speed (the hardware equivalent of BIOS overclocking on PCs).
However, I also am open minded enough to see that I'm in a very small group of people who knows how to do this, cares about it, and/or is willing to spend my time doing it. And I also understand that it requires extra product design, engineering, and assembly line complexity to include a RAM access panel or similarly easy access. If this was an Arduino or Raspberry Pi type of device targeted at tinkerers, then I'd definitely question the decision. But because it's a device targeted at the mass market, I completely understand why it was made.
So you're saying that for a device to be user upgradable it must to fall in the category of an Arduino. Gotcha! Apple could've easily made the bottom twistable, or require a standard screwdriver, or even better, no screws at all, no hidden access points. Any combination of these efforts, which Apple has done beautifully in the past, would've kept the same circuitry yet made the RAM accessible.
Quit whining...the video doesn't look hard and you only need to do this maybe once.
While I don't understand Apple's reasoning for milling a hollow aluminum shell when they could cut costs and make it easier to design, assemble, and repair, this is probably one of the easiest Mac minis with this styling to work on.
I think the earliest ones had RAM bays fully accessible from the bottom without removing the logic board, but as iFixit notes it's easy to remove and doesn't require specialized parts. Access to the RAM is step 5 on their teardown.
I have several 2012 Mac minis and RAM was a 2-minute job. Now the HDD swapping to an SSD was a bitch!
I have a 2014 Mac mini that could use my old 2.5" SSD but I don't want to go through the effort of digging down to that HDD.
I am not 100% but I think the 2014 model is even more of a bitch to change the HHD out. I kick myself that when I had my 2012's open I didn't just add a SATA extender and take the connection outside. I could then so easily have swapped out and upsized the SSDs over time.
As I recall, that was only an option if you also got that SSD for a Fusion Drive setup.
I don't follow? Maybe you misunderstood me or I phrased it badly. If I extend the internal bus SATA interface on any Mac or PC and stick an SSD on the end the computer doesn't know the SSD isn't inside, what difference does it make where the actual physical drive is? In fact, I am looking at several Dell Server towers with cables trapped in the side door and SSDs on the ends they are booted into. It makes changing out boot drives so easy, although with a PC you do have to mess with EFI/BIOS not so with a Mac.
auxio said: [...] Turned out that the RAM I bought didn't have error correction/ECC and the heat sinks on it were much smaller, one of which was the cause of my crashes. This was the reason that the RAM Apple used was a lot more expensive. The devil is in the details.
Good point.
Of course the comparisons in this thread ARE for identical RAM. Apple is charging almost twice as much as Crucial et al for exactly the same component.
And so you're either paying for the extra assembly line needed to build the machine, or you're paying for a service technician's time to install it. You do understand that, when you get someone else to do something for you, it's always going to cost a fair bit more than if you do it yourself right? People don't seem to have a problem paying extra for home renos/repairs, car repairs, etc. But they'll scream from the rooftops if it's for their computer.
Yes, I understand the points you've made. Your philosophical view ignores the very obvious practical reality. The issue is not that it costs more, but how MUCH more.
In order to question how MUCH more, one should put the photos of both original Apple RAM and OEM's RAM side by side, matching all the specifics as can be read on the photos along with OEM RAM's street price, then ask "why?" also taking into account labor costs.
I forgot how many times I heard in my Mac life since 1984 "those are not suited to Macs, Apple uses those ones, which are more expensive..."
Previous version: soldered RAM, people complain. New version: slotted RAM, people complain.
Look man, if you're not comfortable using screwdrivers, you're not even a real DIY tinkerer, so why even both complaining since this is something only DIY folks do?
I am an avid tinkerer and maker, thank you. But upgrading RAM shouldn't be this risky for the average user. Apple could've made the RAM easier to access, but they decided otherwise. Which is a dick move.
The average user is NOT messing with this stuff...
Dunno why people are backing Apple on this one, it's a lazy implementation of a premium product and a crappy user experience. They managed to block more tinkerers from attempting to upgrade their own RAM. Fewer people will buy it and Apple will end-up discontinuing it.
Look, I'm someone who has done very difficult tinkering with computers in the past. For example, to get more performance out of an old G4 TiBook, I moved one of the resistors on the motherboard which controlled the CPU speed (the hardware equivalent of BIOS overclocking on PCs).
However, I also am open minded enough to see that I'm in a very small group of people who knows how to do this, cares about it, and/or is willing to spend my time doing it. And I also understand that it requires extra product design, engineering, and assembly line complexity to include a RAM access panel or similarly easy access. If this was an Arduino or Raspberry Pi type of device targeted at tinkerers, then I'd definitely question the decision. But because it's a device targeted at the mass market, I completely understand why it was made.
So you're saying that for a device to be user upgradable it must to fall in the category of an Arduino. Gotcha! Apple could've easily made the bottom twistable, or require a standard screwdriver, or even better, no screws at all, no hidden access points. Any combination of these efforts, which Apple has done beautifully in the past, would've kept the same circuitry yet made the RAM accessible.
Quit whining...the video doesn't look hard and you only need to do this maybe once.
While I don't understand Apple's reasoning for milling a hollow aluminum shell when they could cut costs and make it easier to design, assemble, and repair, this is probably one of the easiest Mac minis with this styling to work on.
I think the earliest ones had RAM bays fully accessible from the bottom without removing the logic board, but as iFixit notes it's easy to remove and doesn't require specialized parts. Access to the RAM is step 5 on their teardown.
I have several 2012 Mac minis and RAM was a 2-minute job. Now the HDD swapping to an SSD was a bitch!
I have a 2014 Mac mini that could use my old 2.5" SSD but I don't want to go through the effort of digging down to that HDD.
I am not 100% but I think the 2014 model is even more of a bitch to change the HHD out. I kick myself that when I had my 2012's open I didn't just add a SATA extender and take the connection outside. I could then so easily have swapped out and upsized the SSDs over time.
As I recall, that was only an option if you also got that SSD for a Fusion Drive setup.
I don't follow? Maybe you misunderstood me or I phrased it badly. If I extend the internal bus SATA interface on any Mac or PC and stick an SSD on the end the computer doesn't know the SSD isn't inside, what difference does it make where the actual physical drive is? In fact, I am looking at several Dell Server towers with cables trapped in the side door and SSDs on the ends they are booted into. It makes changing out boot drives so easy, although with a PC you do have to mess with EFI/BIOS not so with a Mac.
It seems like it doesn't have the PCIe-like port built-into the board, like with other Macs of its time. You have to buy a separate cable that will work from the designated port to convert to the PCIe-like setup for Apple's SSDs, but I don't think those were available when I bought it which is why I didn't think it was possible.
auxio said: [...] Turned out that the RAM I bought didn't have error correction/ECC and the heat sinks on it were much smaller, one of which was the cause of my crashes. This was the reason that the RAM Apple used was a lot more expensive. The devil is in the details.
Good point.
Of course the comparisons in this thread ARE for identical RAM. Apple is charging almost twice as much as Crucial et al for exactly the same component.
And so you're either paying for the extra assembly line needed to build the machine, or you're paying for a service technician's time to install it. You do understand that, when you get someone else to do something for you, it's always going to cost a fair bit more than if you do it yourself right? People don't seem to have a problem paying extra for home renos/repairs, car repairs, etc. But they'll scream from the rooftops if it's for their computer.
Yes, I understand the points you've made. Your philosophical view ignores the very obvious practical reality. The issue is not that it costs more, but how MUCH more.
In order to question how MUCH more, one should put the photos of both original Apple RAM and OEM's RAM side by side, matching all the specifics as can be read on the photos along with OEM RAM's street price, then ask "why?" also taking into account labor costs.
I forgot how many times I heard in my Mac life since 1984 "those are not suited to Macs, Apple uses those ones, which are more expensive..."
I'd amend that a wee bit ... "those are not suited to Macs, Apple uses those, which are higher quality, more reliable and perhaps even faster..."
Comments
I'd rather get all the RAM I'm likely to need on Day One, and enjoy the full potential of the machine while the other components are still current.
Yes, I understand the points you've made. Your philosophical view ignores the very obvious practical reality. The issue is not that it costs more, but how MUCH more.
mmm... that's exactly what I said. I quote myself "In my case, I make sure I purchase a Mac with the correct configuration for my needs for the two years under coverage"
After that I started having various issues which ranged from complete failures to weird graphics issue. Reinstalling the OS didn't seem to resolve the issues. Still under warranty I sent my notebook to Apple.
They sent it back a couple days later with my 3rd-party RAM removed, Apple RAM installed that matched the original specs of the machine, a fresh install of Mac OS X, and no charge. I didn't supply them my original RAM because it never occurred to me that the 3rd-party RAM I had installed many weeks earlier would be the issue.
I ended up sending that RAM back to the manufacture—which was a much bigger PITA and longer process than sending to Apple. After a lengthy phone call, I think it included going to their website to find an RMA sheet, which then had to be printed out, and then manually filled out, and then faxed back to them at my expense. I also had to pay for shipping the RAM back to them.
Now, I usually just buy the maximum RAM because I'm not sure Apple is as gracious with repairs as it was back then and ain't nobody got time for that shit.
As a former PC tech and current software dev, this just strikes me as common sense but so many seem to struggle with it.
But I understand that you're so deep in your rabbit hole that it's difficult to see the big picture, so let me try another way of thinking about it. Try to name any other mass market electronic device or appliance which is designed to have the hardware components within it be user upgradeable (TV, stereo, microwave oven, dishwasher, refrigerator, etc). Like it or not, mass market computers are appliances for the vast majority of people (users).
iPad or iPhone, that's an appliance like a washing machine. Something intended for a market of professional users, maybe not. You and I may not tune the performance of our cars, but a racing driver does. You may not modify your home stereo system, but a professional studio is as likely as not to modify a console/preamp/whatever.
I'm not disagreeing with you, you're clearly right about Apple's philosophy, but I do wonder if it's one worth reconsidering for their "pro" products.
I mention this not to suggest that Apple and HP are equivalent, but simply to refute the argument that Apple's upgrade prices are extremely high because cost recovery makes them so. I can't imagine other suppliers are realizing lower assembly costs than Apple, yet they don't impose such premiums on custom configurations.
I forgot how many times I heard in my Mac life since 1984 "those are not suited to Macs, Apple uses those ones, which are more expensive..."