IMHO, Touch Bar is going away. I think there is plenty of evidence that it will happen soon. The new iMacs and iMac Pros came out without the touch-bar capability (there’s no external keyboard with the Touch Bar capability). Same is true with the newly released Mac Mini and soon-to-be released Mac Pro. Neither the MacBook not the newly released MacBook Air has the Touch Bar.
If Apple saw a future for the Touch Bar, we would have external keyboards with the Touch Bar capability by now, and there would be an option for the Touch Bar in the 2018 MacBook Air.
How can the new MacBook keyboard be better than the old one? Give me a break. There is virtually zero key travel! The old MacBook Air had one of the best keyboards ever - millions of users around the world didn’t just like it - they loved it.
The only reason Apple persists with this ridiculously shallow butterfly keyboard is because they have invested so much money into the project and are too proud to admit they made a mistake.
Watch the numerous youtube video reviews of the new MacBook Air and notice how lukewarm the reviewers are towards its keyboard. None of them rave about it - they just tolerate it. Hardly a glowing endorsement.
Apple designers your new butterfly keyboard is too S H A L L O W. It needs more key T R A V E L. No amount of silicon glue will fix this problem - it needs to be redesigned.
I completely agree on the keyboard. Why would anyone want to buy a premium machine and then have to "tolerate" its primary interface with the user?
But, I think, rather than focus on the keyboard in isolation, this points to a rigid, narrowly focused Mac design team. There are very narrow differences between the 3 machines -- put them side by side and an average user would be hard pressed to tell them apart or even decide which is better.
Sort of the Henry Ford philosophy: Any color you want as long as its black
From a hardware perspective I'll go with the Lenovo Thinkpad line every single time. A small sampling of this line shows: -- The "X1 Carbon" series -- super light and thin: 2 USB, 2USBc, HDMI, headphone, SD, LTE, multiple CPU, SSD, Display and RAM options
-- The "T" series -- built like tanks, 14 & 15 inch models, integrated or NVIDIA graphics, up to 32Gb DDR4, 500Gb HD to 1Tb SSD, Dual quick switch batteries, 4 different screen option including touch screen, 2 USB, 2 USBc, HDMI, headphone, SD, LTE, multiple CPU options with an optional docking station. And, it is highly user modifiable and upgradeable with detailed instructions on replacing every single part down to the processor.
Obviously, there is one for every user and their unique needs. Nobody needs to adapt their needs to the machine. And, all three are more rugged than any MacBook with better keyboards that are spill resistant.
In comparison, Mac hardware is very, very limited. Its primary selling point is not the hardware but the OS and Apple's ecosystem.
I think Apple users would be best off if Apple fired their narrow minded Mac design team and simply sold Lenovo Thinkpads loaded with Apple's MacOS and the Apple Ecosystem.
When looking at MacBook's the difference between the hardware and software brings back memories of the defense dominated 1970's Steelers where the Defense told the Offense:
I think the keyboard on the new MB Air -- which is similar if not identical to the one on the latest MacBook Pros -- is great. The larger keys more than make up for the (very slight) reduction in travel in the previous MB Air keyboard, and for most of the prima donnas here you might actually try using it for more than two minutes in a store before judging. I make my living as a writer through my Mac and its keyboard -- it works fine, which is why the MB Pro has been a such a hit product. If you love travel so much, why aren't you using a mechanical keyboard? Why aren't such keyboards flying off the shelves, and selling in the millions? It's because you're being over critical and hypocritical about this, that's why -- not to mention grossly misrepresenting what a tiny minority of users you are.
In my life I've gone from manual typewriter to electric typewriter to those honking large/heavy keyboards in the early computers (Apple II and its contemporaries) to the various Mac keyboards to the chiclet design to the new MB Pro -- and the only one I can really really disliking was the one with the first iMacs (because the letters rubbed off, and let's not ever speak of that hockey-puck mouse again, for that matter).
I continue to be highly productive right across those lines, as do the 100 million current Mac users and all the people who have ever used Macs. Go back to a Windows machine and the chiclet keyboard designs they stole from Apple, or buy an external keyboard if you seriously believe you "can't" work with the new ones -- lots of options out there for you "special cases."
Meanwhile, the rest of us will be carrying on being productive and satisfied users, as we have been -- and very happy not to have to go back to the era of difficult, weighty, hard-to-strike keyboards.
Yeah it’s quite silly. But if they didn’t have key travel to complain about, what would be left?
Still, this product feels compromised - either or not to maintain the other, more compromised/aging MacBook models. Processor/port/RAM/HD wise. What about the TouchBar ? Has Apple decided that NOT to be an across-platform standard ? What’s the policy here ? Expandability...service...pfff. The whole planet now sees Apple is broadening its 1 year service window and busy defining repair programs as its quality standards appear to fall. This is not gratitude, it is a principal omission that the current leadership isn’t able or interested to address. I am not prepared to pay the premium price for a 2016-spec product designed not to compromise MBPro 2018 I am prepared to buy a $15 BT tactile keyboard substitute for daily use, which should have Apple ashamed as it denies the whole concept of mobility. My 2015 Air being the best mobile solution to date, is just insane.
Laptops aren’t built for “expandability” and they’re quite serviceable, just not by me which is fine. Like with cars, the compromise is worth it for the attributes I value in a portable — size, weight, etc.
Still, this product feels compromised - either or not to maintain the other, more compromised/aging MacBook models. Processor/port/RAM/HD wise. What about the TouchBar ? Has Apple decided that NOT to be an across-platform standard ? What’s the policy here ? Expandability...service...pfff. The whole planet now sees Apple is broadening its 1 year service window and busy defining repair programs as its quality standards appear to fall. This is not gratitude, it is a principal omission that the current leadership isn’t able or interested to address. I am not prepared to pay the premium price for a 2016-spec product designed not to compromise MBPro 2018 I am prepared to buy a $15 BT tactile keyboard substitute for daily use, which should have Apple ashamed as it denies the whole concept of mobility. My 2015 Air being the best mobile solution to date, is just insane.
Laptops aren’t built for “expandability” and they’re quite serviceable, just not by me which is fine. Like with cars, the compromise is worth it for the attributes I value in a portable — size, weight, etc.
Compromise isn’t a bad word. It surrounds us.
Unfortunately, Apple's obsession with size and weight makes compromise pretty much a moot point. I'm glad these units meet your needs. My needs are more along the lines of a quality keyboard, easy on the eyes screen, maintainability and upgradability.
The 6 year old Thinkpad T410 I'm typing this on is pretty much bullet proof. It's running the current OS, has a great keyboard & screen, double its original RAM (which I could double again if needed), a new 256Gb SSD and a second harddrive for automatic backups & such. But, I'm thinking about tearing it down to apply new thermal grease to the CPU & GPU coolers because its starting to run a little warm when I put demands on it. Fortunately, Lenovo supplies detailed, step by step instructions on how to do that.
We all have unique needs and one size rarely fits all.
Went to see 3 options today in person 1. The Air 2. The MacBook Pro (is it worth the extra) 3. A surface laptop 2 (could I switch ?)
the keyboard on the Air is better than the pro (a little) but not much. I would still “tolerate it” , not love it by a long long way.
The biggest problem with with the Air was the screen. No other way to say it.. it was quite a bit dimmer than the pro. Quite noticeable. And quite off putting when the cost is almost as much as the pro.
Build quality wise I preferred the Air design over the pro.
The keyboard on the surface laptop was superior to both Air and Pro, and the screen ratio was better too (3:2). High res as well so no issue there. Slightly more reflective screen but noticeably brighter than the Air. It’s ports , whilst older (mdp, usb a, surface connector) actually work better for me as I have no usb C stuff. Build wise ... better than expected and light ,but nowhere near the prestige level of the Air. If only it didn’t come with windows.
Came away sonewhat undecided. Trade offs on all options which was disappointing . Quite disappointed with the Air’s screen. Not good when you drop this kind of money... Sigh.
I agree. What’s more, they’ve doubled down on TouchID. I couldnt believe the amount of time they spend discussing it on stage, rather than just mentioning that it was included.
Any why continue to include the headphone jack? Wouldn’t two USB-C ports, one on each side of the notebook be much more useful to the user than an “ancient” headphone jack Apple is removing from all of their other ultra-portable devices?
A fast secured machine with a real Esc key must be appealing to other professional users.
There is no Esc key any more on the newer MBPs?! $#&)/* There go my plans for an upgrade, which I've been thinking about.
I somehow missed that one... (I am still on my 16GB/1TB/2.5GHz/Mid-2015 MBP -- can't bring myself to give up on MagSafe quite yet; and it's a damn gorgeous machine... the best Apple's ever made.)
But, I'm thinking about tearing it down to apply new thermal grease to the CPU & GPU coolers because its starting to run a little warm when I put demands on it. Fortunately, Lenovo supplies detailed, step by step instructions on how to do that
Yes. Because this is what normal people do with their time. LOL
I have tested the keyboards (but don't own one yet - still happy with my 4 yo MBP), and they seem fine, any new keyboard takes a bit to get used to, but that takes a few days, then you are over it.
That's what I was hoping when I ordered my 2016 MacBook Pro with Touch Bar two years ago. That hasn't been the case.
I don't have any problem with the way it feels or sounds, but rather how it works (or doesn't). My typing accuracy is significantly lower with the butterfly keyboard compared to the other Macs in the house. I don't know why, maybe because the keys are larger and thus closer together. I thought I was just getting sloppy until I worked on the external keyboard for a few days. As soon as I went back to the butterfly, instant increase in typos.
I could tolerate that, as annoying as it is, but I am sick to fucking DEATH of keys that only respond if you hit them exactly the right way with the right amount of force, stop working completely no matter HOW you press them, or repeat on their own. It's not difficult to remedy -- I just turn the machine upside and spank it -- but it sure sucks the joy out a $5000 purchase when I have to do that every couple days, while people with much less expensive hardware never give the keyboard a second thought.
Mostly I still love this machine and would buy it again, but that love is in SPITE of the keyboard. It sucks.
What's really weird is that Apple keeps promoting their new butterfly keyboards as '4 times more stable' than the older versions.
Yet, in all my years of using MacBooks - and working with other MacBook users - I have never once heard anyone complain about keyboard stability.
In fact, what is keyboard stability? Is there really such a thing? All I know is that the older MacBook keyboards are extremely easy and enjoyable to use - and very accurate.
I suspect that Apple just wanted to make their keyboards as thin as possible - and then retrofitted 'stability' as a rationale for doing so.
I've used the 2018 MBP with TouchBar and have no problems with the keyboard. The Butterfly mechanism seems to have hit its stride with the 3rd Gen. It feels as good as my second gen. MBA keyboard.
I seriously feel that people are just making a mountain out of a molehill.
Question: Could the T2 improve real world performance of the SSD such that the processor diff. makes no difference?
For storage-intensive tasks it may be faster. For processor-intensive tasks it will be slower. The latter is much more common than the former, so I'd say "no."
bestkeptsecret said: I seriously feel that people are just making a mountain out of a molehill.
Spend a few days with mine. I promise that will clear up your "feeling" on the matter right quick.
Then again, if you don't use the letter P very much, maybe you won't mind if pressing the key doesn't always produce a character on screen.
Actually the worst offender at the moment is 6. P seems to be working today. Even when it wasn't, it was less disruptive than when the E key went south or the R produced rrrr every time I touched it.
But, I'm thinking about tearing it down to apply new thermal grease to the CPU & GPU coolers because its starting to run a little warm when I put demands on it. Fortunately, Lenovo supplies detailed, step by step instructions on how to do that
Yes. Because this is what normal people do with their time. LOL
So you would throw away a perfectly good machine and spend a grand or so on a new one that performs no better? Really? Do you also sell your car when it gets dirty?
bestkeptsecret said: I seriously feel that people are just making a mountain out of a molehill.
Spend a few days with mine. I promise that will clear up your "feeling" on the matter right quick.
Then again, if you don't use the letter P very much, maybe you won't mind if pressing the key doesn't always produce a character on screen.
Actually the worst offender at the moment is 6. P seems to be working today. Even when it wasn't, it was less disruptive than when the E key went south or the R produced rrrr every time I touched it.
Actually, that kind of wondering stickiness or lack of responsiveness has always been, in my experience, more a case of some sort machine overload rather than a keyboard problem. I find it is usually resolved by things like:
-- shutting down open programs
-- adding memory
-- rebooting
And, I find that it mostly happens on certain user forums that monitor keystrokes as you type.
But then I use Windows machines and don't use Apple keyboards -- so my experience may not apply.
But, regardless of the cause, it is incredibly frustrating and irritating.
- 2018 MB Air i5 1.6Ghz Y series 8th gen 7w dual core 8Gb 256Gb $A2,149
- 2017 MBP i5 2.3Ghz U series 7th gen 15w dual core 8Gb 256Gb $A2,199
According to this review the MBP has
+ Better screen
+ Faster processor
- 2nd gen keyboard (more likely to have problems)
- No Touch ID
- No T2 controller
- Less battery life than Air
Question: Could the T2 improve real world performance of the SSD such that the processor diff. makes no difference?
Relative to the MBP13FN, it would be imperceptible. Where storage performance would matter for your question is virtual memory performance, memory compression and possibly randomized memory allocation (security thing). If the T2 ends up doing the latter two faster - assuming the T2 has hardware blocks that can do the memory compression and memory allocation randomization - it may end up a smoother device. Not necessarily faster, just smoother during memory constrained scenarios. But this effect is going to be subtle, assuming the hardware blocks in the T2 are there.
The T2 has a HEVC block in it, and if you do a lot of HEVC transcodes, the clear winner is the 2018 MBA, unless you prefer the tapered shape and Touch ID which can be quite subjective. HEVC is the only thing that breaks in the MBA’s favor in a huge objective way. Otherwise, it is basically down to which display you would rather have. Since they are the same price, seems a no brainer other than the HEVC transcodes. HEVC transcodes will be something like 500% faster on the MBA. If you are doing that type of work, it may mean you are transferring GBs of data into and out of the machine. The faster storage performance on the MBA will make this take less time. So, a win in more ways than one.
Comments
If Apple saw a future for the Touch Bar, we would have external keyboards with the Touch Bar capability by now, and there would be an option for the Touch Bar in the 2018 MacBook Air.
-- The "X1 Carbon" series -- super light and thin: 2 USB, 2USBc, HDMI, headphone, SD, LTE, multiple CPU, SSD, Display and RAM options
When looking at MacBook's the difference between the hardware and software brings back memories of the defense dominated 1970's Steelers where the Defense told the Offense:
Laptops aren’t built for “expandability” and they’re quite serviceable, just not by me which is fine. Like with cars, the compromise is worth it for the attributes I value in a portable — size, weight, etc.
Compromise isn’t a bad word. It surrounds us.
1. The Air
2. The MacBook Pro (is it worth the extra)
3. A surface laptop 2 (could I switch ?)
the keyboard on the Air is better than the pro (a little) but not much. I would still “tolerate it” , not love it by a long long way.
The biggest problem with with the Air was the screen. No other way to say it.. it was quite a bit dimmer than the pro. Quite noticeable. And quite off putting when the cost is almost as much as the pro.
Build quality wise I preferred the Air design over the pro.
The keyboard on the surface laptop was superior to both Air and Pro, and the screen ratio was better too (3:2). High res as well so no issue there. Slightly more reflective screen but noticeably brighter than the Air. It’s ports , whilst older (mdp, usb a, surface connector) actually work better for me as I have no usb C stuff. Build wise ... better than expected and light ,but nowhere near the prestige level of the Air. If only it didn’t come with windows.
Came away sonewhat undecided. Trade offs on all options which was disappointing . Quite disappointed with the Air’s screen. Not good when you drop this kind of money... Sigh.
Any why continue to include the headphone jack? Wouldn’t two USB-C ports, one on each side of the notebook be much more useful to the user than an “ancient” headphone jack Apple is removing from all of their other ultra-portable devices?
I somehow missed that one... (I am still on my 16GB/1TB/2.5GHz/Mid-2015 MBP -- can't bring myself to give up on MagSafe quite yet; and it's a damn gorgeous machine... the best Apple's ever made.)
I don't have any problem with the way it feels or sounds, but rather how it works (or doesn't). My typing accuracy is significantly lower with the butterfly keyboard compared to the other Macs in the house. I don't know why, maybe because the keys are larger and thus closer together. I thought I was just getting sloppy until I worked on the external keyboard for a few days. As soon as I went back to the butterfly, instant increase in typos.
I could tolerate that, as annoying as it is, but I am sick to fucking DEATH of keys that only respond if you hit them exactly the right way with the right amount of force, stop working completely no matter HOW you press them, or repeat on their own. It's not difficult to remedy -- I just turn the machine upside and spank it -- but it sure sucks the joy out a $5000 purchase when I have to do that every couple days, while people with much less expensive hardware never give the keyboard a second thought.
Mostly I still love this machine and would buy it again, but that love is in SPITE of the keyboard. It sucks.
Yet, in all my years of using MacBooks - and working with other MacBook users - I have never once heard anyone complain about keyboard stability.
In fact, what is keyboard stability? Is there really such a thing? All I know is that the older MacBook keyboards are extremely easy and enjoyable to use - and very accurate.
I suspect that Apple just wanted to make their keyboards as thin as possible - and then retrofitted 'stability' as a rationale for doing so.
I've used the 2018 MBP with TouchBar and have no problems with the keyboard. The Butterfly mechanism seems to have hit its stride with the 3rd Gen. It feels as good as my second gen. MBA keyboard.
I seriously feel that people are just making a mountain out of a molehill.
I had a ZX Spectrum. The rubber keys would keep getting stuck in their own grooves so often!
I remember typing in loads and loads of BASIC code to play a simple game. It got easier with the cassettes that you could connect to it.
Spend a few days with mine. I promise that will clear up your "feeling" on the matter right quick.
Then again, if you don't use the letter P very much, maybe you won't mind if pressing the key doesn't always produce a character on screen.
Actually the worst offender at the moment is 6. P seems to be working today. Even when it wasn't, it was less disruptive than when the E key went south or the R produced rrrr every time I touched it.
The T2 has a HEVC block in it, and if you do a lot of HEVC transcodes, the clear winner is the 2018 MBA, unless you prefer the tapered shape and Touch ID which can be quite subjective. HEVC is the only thing that breaks in the MBA’s favor in a huge objective way. Otherwise, it is basically down to which display you would rather have. Since they are the same price, seems a no brainer other than the HEVC transcodes. HEVC transcodes will be something like 500% faster on the MBA. If you are doing that type of work, it may mean you are transferring GBs of data into and out of the machine. The faster storage performance on the MBA will make this take less time. So, a win in more ways than one.