"The real question is, does Apple truly want the iPad Pro to replace a laptop? "
It is funny how this argument goes around every year like clockwork. Just like the articles regarding iPhone doom due to supplier comments. The commenters on here must work for DigiTimes...
Apple has never positioned the iPad as a "laptop replacement". They position it as a "computer". The most personal computer they make. This doesn't mean it is a laptop replacement. A replacement means it has to replace "every" feature/function/use case of the original product. This is clearly not the case. I don't think anyone at Apple is stupid enough to believe that a soft keyboard + touch, or the folio keyboard, is as good at text entry as a keyboard and mouse. For the love of god, can you not understand, THEY ARE NOT TARGETING THAT PRIMARY USE CASE!
The iPad is a laptop alternative though for many - a personal computing device that can do many of the tasks of a laptop/desktop + a many new ones not possible on those machines. Lots of people have used PC's for work in the past, but that doesn't mean it was the best tool. An iPad is a better fit for many "work / productive" tasks / jobs - health care, education, sales roles, field maintenance, artists, musicians, video capture & editing in the field, photography on the go, professional drawing roles. etc...
Or put another way. How good is your laptop at capturing video? At taking pictures? Supporting any form of drawing / sketching / free hand markup? Capturing a picture of a document, recognizing its content like a scan, and allowing you to mark it up, saving that, and sending it to someone? Holding in one hand while you provide a presentation to a client in a casual setting? Doing your rounds and entering data? Taking to the field to provide you documentation & video to help fix a part? How is your PC's AR capability?
Yes, we get it. The iPad is not a good replacement if your primary job function involves a lot of typing, use of mouse, big screen for lots of data. I know - I am one of these myself - but I don't spend my time bitching on forums about why the iPad can't replace my laptop and how stupid Apple is for not making the iPad do the Mac's job. Fortunately Apple is still making the Mac...
A lot of people have picked up on the fact that for typical use, an iPad (not even Pro) is a suitable laptop replacement with some extremely minor tricks to learn (like split screen) to use it to its full potential. The iPad Pro is a suitable laptop replacement for people who primarily use a computer to create drawn art -- I predict over time it will also become the tool of choice for photo editing (it's very near that now).
Is that true? The iPad is "very near" to being the tool of choice for photo editing?
While I find the iPad preferable for some basic photo editing, even the 12.9" display is too small for professional photo editing, at least for the professional's setups I have seen in action. And that takes me back to both AI's point that being able to mirror the iPad's display on a much larger 4K display is great for presentations, but having to resort to manipulating the content via the smaller iPad screen makes no sense (vs. a direct input device on the larger display). Otherwise the iPad would be a perfect hybrid solution for the photo professional on the go.
What were the resolutions of those setups? A 27" but 1080p display is of no use to anyone. A Retina display encloses all the advantages of a large display in a most portable footprint. To a trained eye, resolution matters more than the size of the display, as screen redraw speed matters more. No professional would like to wait seconds for the screen redraw, no matter how big the display is. The iPad Pro has no shortcomings in screen redraw too. As such (and with the arrival of full Photoshop), the iPad Pro may be the first complete digital workbench for photographers and other creative professionals since decades. Macs, OK, but they lack the direct manipulation the touch interface provides and no Wacom or alike can compete with iPad Pro + Pencil 2 combo.
Essentially: iPad could be a laptop replacement, but Apple has reversed their course (or stalled it?) and so far, chooses not to go there. It's not a technical limitation but an administrative one. I find that sad.
My personal experience last night with my 6th grade grandson doing his homework on his 3 year old HP: Grandson: "This laptop sucks! It's not working!" (It was running slowly)
Me: "Use your new iPad that I just bought you."
Grandson: "No way, i love it, but it sucks for homework"
Do I buy him an MBA or MBP? Huh? I just spent $700 on an iPad. Now I'm supposed to spend $1,500-$2,000 on a tiny 13" MacBook to replace his 15" laptop? I don't think so.
Sorry, but I think you're full of it.
From your past posts, it's clear that you know what an iPad can and can't do (since you've been ranting about it forever). But yet, you go ahead and buy your 6th grade grandson an iPad to replace his laptop? You're pretending that you thought that would be the ideal device? You know it runs iOS. And then you pretend to be a victim for being forced to spend that money, and how you're "supposed to spend $1500-$2,000" on another machine? The new Macbook Air costs $1,199 - what's wrong with that machine? Or does he suddenly need a Pro machine for his 6th grade homework? Better yet, just get him a Windows laptop, if you think you're getting fleeced with a Macbook. But spare us your false, made-up narratives that no rational person would believe.
If you're primarily a content consumer, the new iPad will certainly fit the bill with a gross level of overkill for the chosen task. It is far more than capable of creating text, digital art, and animation, but falls down a slight bit on video creation not from a lack of power, but a lack of flexibility.
Yeah, they have to fix the software/workflow side of things. It doesn't really matter how powerful it is until that is the case. I guess what I'm wondering at this point, is wouldn't most of the above be just fine with a $329 iPad regular? (I ask this not simply in jest, but as someone who is headed towards a more powerful Mac and probably iPad for mobile use... as much as I'd like an iPad Pro, I just don't think I can justify the extra cost.)
Disagree with this sentiment... it's not Apple that has to fix anything, it's the "old guard" that needs to eventually whither away and give rise to a new generation that knows how to make a new workflow work for them.
This all happened before when we went from CL (keyboard driven) user interfaces to GUI. People who were entrenched with the CL way of doing things thought the GUI was a major step backwards in usability. Computers with GUI were regarded as "toys".
Also, the justification is the "extra" comes when you consider the longevity of the device. The base iPad model is fine for what you may want to do now, but will it last as long and will it be able to take advantage of any future software innovations?
I have an original iPad that I use every day still, mainly in bed; reading, streaming video, playing card/puzzle games. And have a 9.7" iPad Pro that I use for programming, designing my house remodel, and my everyday mobile general computer use, web browsing, calendar, reminders, messaging, etc.
And I'll also add, that I do tend to only buy and use apps that are available on both iOS and macOS. It's very nice to be able to move from one to another without having compatibility issues.
It has nothing to do with "old guard". It's about functionality.
If you're primarily a content consumer, the new iPad will certainly fit the bill with a gross level of overkill for the chosen task. It is far more than capable of creating text, digital art, and animation, but falls down a slight bit on video creation not from a lack of power, but a lack of flexibility.
Yeah, they have to fix the software/workflow side of things. It doesn't really matter how powerful it is until that is the case. I guess what I'm wondering at this point, is wouldn't most of the above be just fine with a $329 iPad regular? (I ask this not simply in jest, but as someone who is headed towards a more powerful Mac and probably iPad for mobile use... as much as I'd like an iPad Pro, I just don't think I can justify the extra cost.)
Disagree with this sentiment... it's not Apple that has to fix anything, it's the "old guard" that needs to eventually whither away and give rise to a new generation that knows how to make a new workflow work for them.
This all happened before when we went from CL (keyboard driven) user interfaces to GUI. People who were entrenched with the CL way of doing things thought the GUI was a major step backwards in usability. Computers with GUI were regarded as "toys".
Also, the justification is the "extra" comes when you consider the longevity of the device. The base iPad model is fine for what you may want to do now, but will it last as long and will it be able to take advantage of any future software innovations?
I have an original iPad that I use every day still, mainly in bed; reading, streaming video, playing card/puzzle games. And have a 9.7" iPad Pro that I use for programming, designing my house remodel, and my everyday mobile general computer use, web browsing, calendar, reminders, messaging, etc.
And I'll also add, that I do tend to only buy and use apps that are available on both iOS and macOS. It's very nice to be able to move from one to another without having compatibility issues.
This reflects my thinking to a t. We’ve gone from breadboarding to punch cards to teletypes to crts to gui/mouse and each and every change was met with some resistance and reasons why the new technology couldn’t do what the old technology could. These current crop of comments stating that the old hardware is good enough until the software comes of age is like saying that 640k System memory is more that anyone could need.
Its not saying anything of the sort. Those are false analogies.
If you're primarily a content consumer, the new iPad will certainly fit the bill with a gross level of overkill for the chosen task. It is far more than capable of creating text, digital art, and animation, but falls down a slight bit on video creation not from a lack of power, but a lack of flexibility.
Yeah, they have to fix the software/workflow side of things. It doesn't really matter how powerful it is until that is the case. I guess what I'm wondering at this point, is wouldn't most of the above be just fine with a $329 iPad regular? (I ask this not simply in jest, but as someone who is headed towards a more powerful Mac and probably iPad for mobile use... as much as I'd like an iPad Pro, I just don't think I can justify the extra cost.)
Disagree with this sentiment... it's not Apple that has to fix anything, it's the "old guard" that needs to eventually whither away and give rise to a new generation that knows how to make a new workflow work for them.
This all happened before when we went from CL (keyboard driven) user interfaces to GUI. People who were entrenched with the CL way of doing things thought the GUI was a major step backwards in usability. Computers with GUI were regarded as "toys".
I think we can all agree that it is a mixture of both.
I think it is a mistake for Apple to promote these keyboard accessories. They have to be all in, and make the software keyboard the main way of using an iPad, like the software keyboard is the main way to enter text in an iPhone. Virtually all the reviews include the Smart Keyboard Folio. That’s just a mistake as I’ve opined before. It’s the worst of all worlds, when Apple should be maximizing the iPad’s touchscreen and sensor capabilities as much as they can, in functionality, marketing and advertising.
Except -- as the review in CNBC showed -- the touch screen sucks for what he called (and I call) "real work".
A keyboard, whether touch or external, is merely an input device. There is no need to make either dominant. Its whichever best suits the user's needs and preferences.
If you're primarily a content consumer, the new iPad will certainly fit the bill with a gross level of overkill for the chosen task. It is far more than capable of creating text, digital art, and animation, but falls down a slight bit on video creation not from a lack of power, but a lack of flexibility.
Yeah, they have to fix the software/workflow side of things. It doesn't really matter how powerful it is until that is the case. I guess what I'm wondering at this point, is wouldn't most of the above be just fine with a $329 iPad regular? (I ask this not simply in jest, but as someone who is headed towards a more powerful Mac and probably iPad for mobile use... as much as I'd like an iPad Pro, I just don't think I can justify the extra cost.)
Disagree with this sentiment... it's not Apple that has to fix anything, it's the "old guard" that needs to eventually whither away and give rise to a new generation that knows how to make a new workflow work for them.
This all happened before when we went from CL (keyboard driven) user interfaces to GUI. People who were entrenched with the CL way of doing things thought the GUI was a major step backwards in usability. Computers with GUI were regarded as "toys".
Also, the justification is the "extra" comes when you consider the longevity of the device. The base iPad model is fine for what you may want to do now, but will it last as long and will it be able to take advantage of any future software innovations?
I have an original iPad that I use every day still, mainly in bed; reading, streaming video, playing card/puzzle games. And have a 9.7" iPad Pro that I use for programming, designing my house remodel, and my everyday mobile general computer use, web browsing, calendar, reminders, messaging, etc.
And I'll also add, that I do tend to only buy and use apps that are available on both iOS and macOS. It's very nice to be able to move from one to another without having compatibility issues.
This reflects my thinking to a t. We’ve gone from breadboarding to punch cards to teletypes to crts to gui/mouse and each and every change was met with some resistance and reasons why the new technology couldn’t do what the old technology could. These current crop of comments stating that the old hardware is good enough until the software comes of age is like saying that 640k System memory is more that anyone could need.
Its not saying anything of the sort. Those are false analogies.
macplusplus said: There are external flash drives that work over the Lightning port of previous iPad models. These come with their utility app that integrates also with the Files app and the Share sheet. We can expect USB-C versions of these flash drives, this is just a matter of time.
Why should anyone need a utility to do what any computer should be able to do directly? That's just silly.
It is equally silly that "any computer" does not do that directly. You were required to download drivers from the Internet until recently to attach a dumb hard disk. You are still required to do that on the Mac for some brands. Not to mention cameras, scanners, printers and other data capture and output devices. What computer handles those "directly"?
I've never had to download a driver to use a hard drive with a Mac, and I've been using one since the SE/30. What brands require that now? I've never run into that. Cameras have simply shown up on my desktop when plugged in for many years, scanners and printers are almost seamlessly added via the Printers & Scanners prefpane — yes those are downloading drivers, but still.
The last time I downloaded a driver for High Sierra was for Western Digital My Passport 2 TB. No operating system provides blanket support for any peripheral. The manufacturer provides the necessary utilities and drivers to the OS producer or to the buyer. Whether these are installed by a software update or downloaded explicitly is irrelevant. On iOS these are downloaded explicitly from the AppStore. Claiming that iOS does not support accessories just because of this is stupid.
You don't need a driver for those WD drives, you just format them in Disk Utility. What exactly did you download, some utilities they offer on the side?
I think the pushback has come somewhat due to Apple's slipping commitment to the Mac, especially at the lower end of the price range. The message from Apple seems to be... if you're a non-pro Mac user, your new machine is an iDevice. Except that iDevices aren't ready for prime-time to be such a replacement. So, people are frustrated with that situation.
Are you still fucking that chicken? What about the goddamned Air and mini that just came out? FFS. Slipping commitment my ass.
Indeed, people like him are living in a clueless fantasy land. In addition to the updated Mac notebooks of various sorts, the latest regular iMacs are still great machines. I’m a pro enterprise software dev and my desktop is a loaded 2011 iMac (SSD, etc) — these things have legs. Not having an annual on the nose speed bump doesn’t mean jack shit. It certainly isn’t evidence that their “commitment is slipping” or any other such nonsense. How many times do Craig et all have to spell it out at the keynotes...
Yeah, totes. And up til now, the ONLY question mark in the Mac lineup was the mini, which got a pretty clear answer, and even one that CG "Pro" Werks was positive on, so he can go back to getting his Pro Work™ done instead of these breathless forum posts about how they won't make him a Mac that he wants to use to get Pro Work™ done.
macplusplus said: There are external flash drives that work over the Lightning port of previous iPad models. These come with their utility app that integrates also with the Files app and the Share sheet. We can expect USB-C versions of these flash drives, this is just a matter of time.
Why should anyone need a utility to do what any computer should be able to do directly? That's just silly.
It is equally silly that "any computer" does not do that directly. You were required to download drivers from the Internet until recently to attach a dumb hard disk. You are still required to do that on the Mac for some brands. Not to mention cameras, scanners, printers and other data capture and output devices. What computer handles those "directly"?
I've never had to download a driver to use a hard drive with a Mac, and I've been using one since the SE/30. What brands require that now? I've never run into that. Cameras have simply shown up on my desktop when plugged in for many years, scanners and printers are almost seamlessly added via the Printers & Scanners prefpane — yes those are downloading drivers, but still.
The last time I downloaded a driver for High Sierra was for Western Digital My Passport 2 TB. No operating system provides blanket support for any peripheral. The manufacturer provides the necessary utilities and drivers to the OS producer or to the buyer. Whether these are installed by a software update or downloaded explicitly is irrelevant. On iOS these are downloaded explicitly from the AppStore. Claiming that iOS does not support accessories just because of this is stupid.
You don't need a driver for those WD drives, you just format them in Disk Utility. What exactly did you download, some utilities they offer on the side?
That was WD Elements, not My Passport, my mistake. I downloaded and installed all the related software and Disk Utility found it. I don't remember if I'd made a "Show All Devices" or not in Disk Utility.
tht said: For a thesis or documentation or a paper? Using an iPad software keyboard will be one of the least trying things about the endeavor. The only way to make it less trying is if the keyboard could just write it without my input. Just automatically write documentation for me. It’s the soul crushing boredom, not the software keyboard that will be the problem. 😜
Heh, just articles at the time for me. I wrote a small thesis for my particular track in grad-school, but not on the iPad. But, fair point.... except why make something already hard even harder?
tht said: A lot of it is indeed subjective, what you are used to, and how well you can adapt. I don’t think there is anything technical with a software keyboard - a well designed, fully spaced software keyboard - that would make writing on it more difficult to write a thesis on, all things equal including equivalent viewable areas. But the inertia of what you are used to is a really big thing to stop.
Hmm, maybe to a point, but typing is a tactile thing. Without the physical keys for positioning and feedback when you've tapped, it becomes much more difficult. I think the auto-correct is the only thing that saves the speed a bit, well, when it corrects correctly, that is (then you really have to proofread carefully!).
I think at one point I did some speed tests on both and got somewhere just over half the wpm with the iPad as with my computer/keyboard, if I remember correctly.
tht said: Yeah. Apple has not helped itself here. They should have been racing to put all their full macOS apps onto the iPad Pro, as well as racing to implement PC type functionality. Terminal, Xcode, FCPX, LPX, full iWork/Mail, full web browser, should have been or in the process of being ported and or updated to feature parity to macOS versions. The feedback on this has to be loud and voluminous. People want to use iPads for all sorts of things. It’s strange the company isn’t racing to enable it.
I really don't get it. Maybe they are just that confident in 3rd party developers and that people will quickly move on from their own apps those 3rd parties? It seems insane to put so much effort into product design excellence, user-experience, and then just drop the ball on all the productivity apps people might use every day. But, that seems to be Apple's MO.
macplusplus said: It is equally silly that "any computer" does not do that directly. You were required to download drivers from the Internet until recently to attach a dumb hard disk. You are still required to do that on the Mac for some brands. Not to mention cameras, scanners, printers and other data capture and output devices. What computer handles those "directly"?
I'm not following. Since when do you have to use special drivers or utilities to access files on an external hard drive or media on a Mac?
fastasleep said: What about the goddamned Air and mini that just came out? FFS. Slipping commitment my ass.
The prices have gone up a good bit. Also, how many years was it since the Air and mini were updated? Oh, now that Apple finally updated them, you're going to pretend it wasn't a long while?
macplusplus said: The last time I downloaded a driver for High Sierra was for Western Digital My Passport 2 TB. No operating system provides blanket support for any peripheral. The manufacturer provides the necessary utilities and drivers to the OS producer or to the buyer. Whether these are installed by a software update or downloaded explicitly is irrelevant. On iOS these are downloaded explicitly from the AppStore. Claiming that iOS does not support accessories just because of this is stupid.
Wow, don't buy a WD Passport 2 TB then! But, no, I don't believe it required drivers. You're probably talking about some silly WD utilities to encrypt it or some such nonsense (toss that stuff out!). But, that's a completely different thing that the OS not supporting user access to a file system.
foregoneconclusion said: I understand your point, but I think it's obvious that it doesn't really pan out in the current market. iOS hasn't been able to support higher pricing for software, and that higher pricing is a requirement if you want to see legacy desktop or console level apps. That's the reason Apple is pushing the subscription model. It's likely the only way to start moving the needle towards more $$ for more sophisticated apps. The only developers that have been willing to release full desktop versions of apps in iOS so far have typically been ones that were already competing on price and providing bargain solutions on the desktop...like the Affinity apps that are only $50 on macOS.
And gaming is even more obvious. You always hear the comparisons with things like the Switch and "why can't Apple have those kinds of games on iOS" and the answer is very simple: developers don't currently expect iOS users to buy $60 games. $10 is considered to be a high price for a game on iOS. That's why iOS games that are full featured desktop or console games are almost always releases from a previous generation, like PS2 era GTA: San Andreas or Xbox 360 era GRID: Autosport. There are a few exceptions to that starting to show up, but it's slow progress due to the expectations for revenue generated. Games like Fortnite and PUBG already had a payment model that mirrored mobile on desktop, so it's not a coincidence that those are the only current generation blockbusters that were aggressively ported to iOS in short order.
I agree with many of your points, especially the subscription direction (which is also happening on the desktop). But, the big key difference here is the potential size of the markets. For example, maybe a console game has to charge $60 (now more like $100) for a top game to come out because the numbers are still relatively small. But, they might actually make more at $10 a pop if they sell 10x more copies. But, I suspect it might be a combination... prices inching up, subscription, and quantity.
IMO, the big problem with gaming on the iOS is the lack of controller support. I don't think the touch interface lends itself to most of those kind of games, and Apple stupidly went with the licensed accessory approach vs just adding driver support for Playstation and Xbox controllers many already have or are familiar with.
mjtomlin said: Disagree with this sentiment... it's not Apple that has to fix anything, it's the "old guard" that needs to eventually whither away and give rise to a new generation that knows how to make a new workflow work for them.
This all happened before when we went from CL (keyboard driven) user interfaces to GUI. People who were entrenched with the CL way of doing things thought the GUI was a major step backwards in usability. Computers with GUI were regarded as "toys".
Also, the justification is the "extra" comes when you consider the longevity of the device. The base iPad model is fine for what you may want to do now, but will it last as long and will it be able to take advantage of any future software innovations?
I have an original iPad that I use every day still, mainly in bed; reading, streaming video, playing card/puzzle games. And have a 9.7" iPad Pro that I use for programming, designing my house remodel, and my everyday mobile general computer use, web browsing, calendar, reminders, messaging, etc.
And I'll also add, that I do tend to only buy and use apps that are available on both iOS and macOS. It's very nice to be able to move from one to another without having compatibility issues.
Well, for the record, I was a CL guy, who happily embraced the GUI when it came along. The problem is that the issue isn't my inability to adapt my workflow... it's simply an inferior workflow. It has advantages for some thing, which lend themselves to a portable, touch-driven interface, and now more traditional art practices via 'pencil'. But, the young whipper-snappers aren't going to be more productive on this newfangled thing either if they have to get traditional work done.
I'm also not sure the iPad Pro is going to have this longevity value more than a year or two extra. I can't remember if it was this thread where I said it earlier... but the limiting factor on iOS devices is RAM (historically), not CPU/GPU speed. My hunch is that when the big apps come in full, you'll need a new iPad Pro with more RAM than the current model has.
StrangeDays said: Indeed, people like him are living in a clueless fantasy land. In addition to the updated Mac notebooks of various sorts, the latest regular iMacs are still great machines. I’m a pro enterprise software dev and my desktop is a loaded 2011 iMac (SSD, etc) — these things have legs. Not having an annual on the nose speed bump doesn’t mean jack shit. It certainly isn’t evidence that their “commitment is slipping” or any other such nonsense. How many times do Craig et all have to spell it out at the keynotes...
Give me a friggin' break. Who's talking about annual speed bumps on the nose? So, now that Apple has finally updated a few Mac models (which I've praised them for), suddenly y'all have amnesia about the past 4 or 5 years?
And, the context here, btw, was about whether it would have been nice if Apple still kept a closer to $500 entry level Mac. I was answering with what I feel would be Apple's response (i.e.: buy an iPad, or iPad Pro), and why I feel that isn't an adequate replacement. I'm not sure what that has do with your above response jumping on me.
I'm quite happy with the Mac mini refresh, and will probably be buying a config close to $2000, then likely adding an eGPU (Blackmagic unless another maker comes along with quiet before then). Then, buying an iPad, etc. But, to now try and pretend Apple wasn't behind on this stuff... who's living in the clueless fantasy land?
paxman said: I get that but there is the MBA. Personally I am a Mac guy and have no need for an iPad. In fact, I have 3 old ones I'll sell once I get around to it. I currently have a MBP but if the new Air had been out I would have chosen that. Plenty powerful for me.
Yeah, that's probably the best overall deal or entry-level system. We have a couple of the older ones here as well. I'm a bit mixed on the MBA update, but it is probably adequate for most users. Unfortunately, the price went up a bit too.
brucemc said: Apple has never positioned the iPad as a "laptop replacement". They position it as a "computer".
I can't remember all the things they've said, but it is more the actions. I think someone did post a Tim Cook quote about the iPad looking like the future of computing. Then there was all the delay and questioning about the future of the Mac. The 'computer' ad. The price and 'pro' shift of the Mac line, etc.
The problem with the 'computer' thing, is that all sorts of things around my home are now computers. I think they were saying more than that it is technically a computer.
fastasleep said: Yeah, totes. And up til now, the ONLY question mark in the Mac lineup was the mini, which got a pretty clear answer, and even one that CG "Pro" Werks was positive on, so he can go back to getting his Pro Work™ done instead of these breathless forum posts about how they won't make him a Mac that he wants to use to get Pro Work™ done.
Wow, you fanboys are amazing. Sudden loss of memory, huh? And, Apple can do no wrong... except that you've constantly gotten it wrong.
Back when I/we were complaining that it had been so long since a Mac Pro update, and it's future seemed in question... you were telling us that the future was iDevices and that the pro user-base just wasn't big enough to justify such a machine anymore. Move on, dinosaurs. Then Apple announces they were re-thinking the Mac Pro and it would be out at some point.
Back when I/we were complaining about Apple's lack of MacBook Pro updates... you were telling us it was all Intel's fault. No speed gain to be had, so why update? Then Apple comes out with MBP updates, and imagine that, huge speed gains? Couldn't have been the new Intel chips, though... must be the pixie dust Tim keeps in his pocket to bless each Mac with, right?
Back when I/we were complaining about the mini being 5 or 6 years out of date... you were telling us the mini was just too small of a market segment for Apple to bother with anymore, and a failure of a product (not selling), so why would Apple bother with it anymore? After all, there is no need for headless machines when there are iMacs. Apple updates the mini, I suppose just to make me happy, as you know better that they don't sell, right?
I think my complaints were fairly legitimate, and fortunately, it seems Apple agrees. The question remains, then, about the why of all the delays. Since we're not in Apple's meeting room, we can only speculate. I suppose you'll just say it was part of a well-orchestrated plan.
And, even this post is a bit revisionist. The iMac needs an update yet, and up until not all that long ago, it wasn't just the mini in need of an update. Do I need to find you that Mac Rumors 'buy advice' page where pretty much every Mac model across the lineup was 'don't buy'?
I'm really happy about a few of the moves Apple has made recently. I'm glad I was wrong, too (it seems), about them ditching the Mac (at least shorter term). There is still a lot of work to be done on the software side of things, but at least they are finally coming through on the hardware. And, where credit is due, I'll give it. Where I feel they are failing, I'll say it. I've been doing so for decades now.
I think we can all agree that it is a mixture of both.
I think it is a mistake for Apple to promote these keyboard accessories. They have to be all in, and make the software keyboard the main way of using an iPad, like the software keyboard is the main way to enter text in an iPhone. Virtually all the reviews include the Smart Keyboard Folio. That’s just a mistake as I’ve opined before. It’s the worst of all worlds, when Apple should be maximizing the iPad’s touchscreen and sensor capabilities as much as they can, in functionality, marketing and advertising.
Except -- as the review in CNBC showed -- the touch screen sucks for what he called (and I call) "real work".
A keyboard, whether touch or external, is merely an input device. There is no need to make either dominant. Its whichever best suits the user's needs and preferences.
I disagree with the CNBC reviewer if he said that. The touchscreen is awesome. Multi-touch gesturing on the iPad is where it becomes really useful. For the iPad, I’ve already laid out a litany of reasons why touchscreen should be the default way of doing things, and in particular flat on a table. It makes using the touchscreen a whole lot easier. It makes using the Pencil a whole lot easier and quicker.
If an iPad is vertical in a clamshell configuration, it neuters the biggest advantage of an iPad. A lot of people complain about the text editing, insertion placement, text selection, and want a trackpad or mouse support, implying they use an iPad propped up with an external keyboard. But if they used an iPad flat on a table instead of propped up, you could do text editing about as well as with a trackpad. A little buggy in complex web browser text boxes right now, so Apple has to tighten it up, but so far it works. Arrow keys on the software keyboard would be nice, and there’s room on the 12.9 for them. Meta keys would be great too.
It would be plain hard to use the multi-touch gestures when it is propped up by a keyboard case. Hard. You have to reach and lift up your arms. There isn’t solid backing on the iPad combined with the user lifting up their arms. That’s makes it quite unjoyable [is this word better than un-enjoyable?] to use the touchscreen. Virtually impossible to do touchscreen stuff with precision while vertical. You have to be able to rest your arms and wrists on a solid surface.
Hmm, maybe to a point, but typing is a tactile thing. Without the physical keys for positioning and feedback when you've tapped, it becomes much more difficult. I think the auto-correct is the only thing that saves the speed a bit, well, when it corrects correctly, that is (then you really have to proofread carefully!).
I think at one point I did some speed tests on both and got somewhere just over half the wpm with the iPad as with my computer/keyboard, if I remember correctly.
I totally agree with your assessment.
I wonder how many of those who claim typing on a screen based keyboard is as fast as a quality external keyboard are not able to touch type and instead are looking at the keyboard instead of the screen and poking along with one or two fingers instead of 8. That would be a major equalizer. It would in fact be the difference between a V8 and a lawnmower engine -- they're slow regardless of which keyboard they use so which one makes little difference.
I think we can all agree that it is a mixture of both.
I think it is a mistake for Apple to promote these keyboard accessories. They have to be all in, and make the software keyboard the main way of using an iPad, like the software keyboard is the main way to enter text in an iPhone. Virtually all the reviews include the Smart Keyboard Folio. That’s just a mistake as I’ve opined before. It’s the worst of all worlds, when Apple should be maximizing the iPad’s touchscreen and sensor capabilities as much as they can, in functionality, marketing and advertising.
Except -- as the review in CNBC showed -- the touch screen sucks for what he called (and I call) "real work".
A keyboard, whether touch or external, is merely an input device. There is no need to make either dominant. Its whichever best suits the user's needs and preferences.
I disagree with the CNBC reviewer if he said that. The touchscreen is awesome. Multi-touch gesturing on the iPad is where it becomes really useful. For the iPad, I’ve already laid out a litany of reasons why touchscreen should be the default way of doing things, and in particular flat on a table. It makes using the touchscreen a whole lot easier. It makes using the Pencil a whole lot easier and quicker.
If an iPad is vertical in a clamshell configuration, it neuters the biggest advantage of an iPad. A lot of people complain about the text editing, insertion placement, text selection, and want a trackpad or mouse support, implying they use an iPad propped up with an external keyboard. But if they used an iPad flat on a table instead of propped up, you could do text editing about as well as with a trackpad. A little buggy in complex web browser text boxes right now, so Apple has to tighten it up, but so far it works. Arrow keys on the software keyboard would be nice, and there’s room on the 12.9 for them. Meta keys would be great too.
It would be plain hard to use the multi-touch gestures when it is propped up by a keyboard case. Hard. You have to reach and lift up your arms. There isn’t solid backing on the iPad combined with the user lifting up their arms. That’s makes it quite unjoyable [is this word better than un-enjoyable?] to use the touchscreen. Virtually impossible to do touchscreen stuff with precision while vertical. You have to be able to rest your arms and wrists on a solid surface.
I think it mostly depends on your work tasks -- some are better suited to a touch screen and some are better suited to an external keyboard and mouse. It also depends on how much straight typing you do as well as your ability to touch type using all 8 fingers without looking at the keyboard. If you're a hunt & peck guy pretty much any keyboard will do.
They tout the processor power, etc, but what's the point if you can do little more than surf the web and compose e-mails?
And you'd be wrong. You're literally not paying attention to all the apps that support the Pencil, the video editing apps, the myriad music production and synthesizer apps, the fact full Photoshop is coming next year, etc. "Little more" shows that maybe YOU are incapable of doing more than that on an iPad, but that doesn't mean others are.
No - I didn't use my iPad Pro for drawing. It probably would have been better had I done that. I naively tried to use it as a replacement for my laptop and used it for other general uses and was routinely frustrated by how difficult it was to do things. For starters, the pencil and keyboard are necessities; so you can add $250 to the cost of the device. Even with those, routine tasks were so cumbersome that I found myself avoiding using it. Anything that involved any sort of file management or moving a file from one app to another was downright painful but trivial on my MacBook. It is possible that had I invested a bunch more money in 3rd party apps that my experience would have been better, but nominally, Apple's apps should have been up to the task.
None of these issues were caused by hardware limitations. The were all due to the design of iOS. ultimately, it's still seems like a glorified smart phone OS that they've expanded to the iPad. IOS 11 was a huge jump forward. I'm hoping iOS 13 will be another quantum leap. until then, as powerful as the A12x processor is, there's really no point.
They tout the processor power, etc, but what's the point if you can do little more than surf the web and compose e-mails?
And you'd be wrong. You're literally not paying attention to all the apps that support the Pencil, the video editing apps, the myriad music production and synthesizer apps, the fact full Photoshop is coming next year, etc. "Little more" shows that maybe YOU are incapable of doing more than that on an iPad, but that doesn't mean others are.
No - I didn't use my iPad Pro for drawing. It probably would have been better had I done that. I naively tried to use it as a replacement for my laptop and used it for other general uses and was routinely frustrated by how difficult it was to do things. For starters, the pencil and keyboard are necessities; so you can add $250 to the cost of the device. Even with those, routine tasks were so cumbersome that I found myself avoiding using it. Anything that involved any sort of file management or moving a file from one app to another was downright painful but trivial on my MacBook. It is possible that had I invested a bunch more money in 3rd party apps that my experience would have been better, but nominally, Apple's apps should have been up to the task.
None of these issues were caused by hardware limitations. The were all due to the design of iOS. ultimately, it's still seems like a glorified smart phone OS that they've expanded to the iPad. IOS 11 was a huge jump forward. I'm hoping iOS 13 will be another quantum leap. until then, as powerful as the A12x processor is, there's really no point.
They tout the processor power, etc, but what's the point if you can do little more than surf the web and compose e-mails?
And you'd be wrong. You're literally not paying attention to all the apps that support the Pencil, the video editing apps, the myriad music production and synthesizer apps, the fact full Photoshop is coming next year, etc. "Little more" shows that maybe YOU are incapable of doing more than that on an iPad, but that doesn't mean others are.
No - I didn't use my iPad Pro for drawing. It probably would have been better had I done that. I naively tried to use it as a replacement for my laptop and used it for other general uses and was routinely frustrated by how difficult it was to do things. For starters, the pencil and keyboard are necessities; so you can add $250 to the cost of the device. Even with those, routine tasks were so cumbersome that I found myself avoiding using it. Anything that involved any sort of file management or moving a file from one app to another was downright painful but trivial on my MacBook. It is possible that had I invested a bunch more money in 3rd party apps that my experience would have been better, but nominally, Apple's apps should have been up to the task.
None of these issues were caused by hardware limitations. The were all due to the design of iOS. ultimately, it's still seems like a glorified smart phone OS that they've expanded to the iPad. IOS 11 was a huge jump forward. I'm hoping iOS 13 will be another quantum leap. until then, as powerful as the A12x processor is, there's really no point.
I would agree that once you start using iOS methods for managing files, including hire party apps, cloud services, and wireless drives, you’d get used to handling your files that way. In that sense, you’re transferring your expectations of using a MacBook onto the iPad, and that’s wrong.
But you’re not at fault for you’re expectations from the hardware side. Apple markets and sells the iPad with a keyboard presenting the expectation of using it like a MacBook, but does not give you the same ergonomic ability to navigate the device without touching the screen, and that in my opinion makes it impossible to use as a MacBook replacement, despite the apparent marketing, much less a desktop replacement using an external monitor.
Comments
Apple has never positioned the iPad as a "laptop replacement". They position it as a "computer". The most personal computer they make. This doesn't mean it is a laptop replacement. A replacement means it has to replace "every" feature/function/use case of the original product. This is clearly not the case. I don't think anyone at Apple is stupid enough to believe that a soft keyboard + touch, or the folio keyboard, is as good at text entry as a keyboard and mouse. For the love of god, can you not understand, THEY ARE NOT TARGETING THAT PRIMARY USE CASE!
The iPad is a laptop alternative though for many - a personal computing device that can do many of the tasks of a laptop/desktop + a many new ones not possible on those machines. Lots of people have used PC's for work in the past, but that doesn't mean it was the best tool. An iPad is a better fit for many "work / productive" tasks / jobs - health care, education, sales roles, field maintenance, artists, musicians, video capture & editing in the field, photography on the go, professional drawing roles. etc...
Or put another way. How good is your laptop at capturing video? At taking pictures? Supporting any form of drawing / sketching / free hand markup? Capturing a picture of a document, recognizing its content like a scan, and allowing you to mark it up, saving that, and sending it to someone? Holding in one hand while you provide a presentation to a client in a casual setting? Doing your rounds and entering data? Taking to the field to provide you documentation & video to help fix a part? How is your PC's AR capability?
Yes, we get it. The iPad is not a good replacement if your primary job function involves a lot of typing, use of mouse, big screen for lots of data. I know - I am one of these myself - but I don't spend my time bitching on forums about why the iPad can't replace my laptop and how stupid Apple is for not making the iPad do the Mac's job. Fortunately Apple is still making the Mac...
https://d3npuic909260z.cloudfront.net/001/637/471/wMCu_360.mp4
Sorry, but I think you're full of it.
From your past posts, it's clear that you know what an iPad can and can't do (since you've been ranting about it forever). But yet, you go ahead and buy your 6th grade grandson an iPad to replace his laptop? You're pretending that you thought that would be the ideal device? You know it runs iOS. And then you pretend to be a victim for being forced to spend that money, and how you're "supposed to spend $1500-$2,000" on another machine? The new Macbook Air costs $1,199 - what's wrong with that machine? Or does he suddenly need a Pro machine for his 6th grade homework? Better yet, just get him a Windows laptop, if you think you're getting fleeced with a Macbook. But spare us your false, made-up narratives that no rational person would believe.
Yeah, totes. And up til now, the ONLY question mark in the Mac lineup was the mini, which got a pretty clear answer, and even one that CG "Pro" Werks was positive on, so he can go back to getting his Pro Work™ done instead of these breathless forum posts about how they won't make him a Mac that he wants to use to get Pro Work™ done.
But, fair point.... except why make something already hard even harder?
Hmm, maybe to a point, but typing is a tactile thing. Without the physical keys for positioning and feedback when you've tapped, it becomes much more difficult. I think the auto-correct is the only thing that saves the speed a bit, well, when it corrects correctly, that is (then you really have to proofread carefully!).
I think at one point I did some speed tests on both and got somewhere just over half the wpm with the iPad as with my computer/keyboard, if I remember correctly.
I really don't get it. Maybe they are just that confident in 3rd party developers and that people will quickly move on from their own apps those 3rd parties? It seems insane to put so much effort into product design excellence, user-experience, and then just drop the ball on all the productivity apps people might use every day. But, that seems to be Apple's MO.
I'm not following. Since when do you have to use special drivers or utilities to access files on an external hard drive or media on a Mac?
The prices have gone up a good bit. Also, how many years was it since the Air and mini were updated? Oh, now that Apple finally updated them, you're going to pretend it wasn't a long while?
Wow, don't buy a WD Passport 2 TB then! But, no, I don't believe it required drivers. You're probably talking about some silly WD utilities to encrypt it or some such nonsense (toss that stuff out!). But, that's a completely different thing that the OS not supporting user access to a file system.
I agree with many of your points, especially the subscription direction (which is also happening on the desktop). But, the big key difference here is the potential size of the markets. For example, maybe a console game has to charge $60 (now more like $100) for a top game to come out because the numbers are still relatively small. But, they might actually make more at $10 a pop if they sell 10x more copies. But, I suspect it might be a combination... prices inching up, subscription, and quantity.
IMO, the big problem with gaming on the iOS is the lack of controller support. I don't think the touch interface lends itself to most of those kind of games, and Apple stupidly went with the licensed accessory approach vs just adding driver support for Playstation and Xbox controllers many already have or are familiar with.
Well, for the record, I was a CL guy, who happily embraced the GUI when it came along. The problem is that the issue isn't my inability to adapt my workflow... it's simply an inferior workflow. It has advantages for some thing, which lend themselves to a portable, touch-driven interface, and now more traditional art practices via 'pencil'. But, the young whipper-snappers aren't going to be more productive on this newfangled thing either if they have to get traditional work done.
I'm also not sure the iPad Pro is going to have this longevity value more than a year or two extra. I can't remember if it was this thread where I said it earlier... but the limiting factor on iOS devices is RAM (historically), not CPU/GPU speed. My hunch is that when the big apps come in full, you'll need a new iPad Pro with more RAM than the current model has.
Give me a friggin' break. Who's talking about annual speed bumps on the nose? So, now that Apple has finally updated a few Mac models (which I've praised them for), suddenly y'all have amnesia about the past 4 or 5 years?
And, the context here, btw, was about whether it would have been nice if Apple still kept a closer to $500 entry level Mac. I was answering with what I feel would be Apple's response (i.e.: buy an iPad, or iPad Pro), and why I feel that isn't an adequate replacement. I'm not sure what that has do with your above response jumping on me.
I'm quite happy with the Mac mini refresh, and will probably be buying a config close to $2000, then likely adding an eGPU (Blackmagic unless another maker comes along with quiet before then). Then, buying an iPad, etc. But, to now try and pretend Apple wasn't behind on this stuff... who's living in the clueless fantasy land?
Yeah, that's probably the best overall deal or entry-level system. We have a couple of the older ones here as well. I'm a bit mixed on the MBA update, but it is probably adequate for most users. Unfortunately, the price went up a bit too.
The problem with the 'computer' thing, is that all sorts of things around my home are now computers. I think they were saying more than that it is technically a computer.
Wow, you fanboys are amazing. Sudden loss of memory, huh? And, Apple can do no wrong... except that you've constantly gotten it wrong.
Back when I/we were complaining that it had been so long since a Mac Pro update, and it's future seemed in question... you were telling us that the future was iDevices and that the pro user-base just wasn't big enough to justify such a machine anymore. Move on, dinosaurs. Then Apple announces they were re-thinking the Mac Pro and it would be out at some point.
Back when I/we were complaining about Apple's lack of MacBook Pro updates... you were telling us it was all Intel's fault. No speed gain to be had, so why update? Then Apple comes out with MBP updates, and imagine that, huge speed gains? Couldn't have been the new Intel chips, though... must be the pixie dust Tim keeps in his pocket to bless each Mac with, right?
Back when I/we were complaining about the mini being 5 or 6 years out of date... you were telling us the mini was just too small of a market segment for Apple to bother with anymore, and a failure of a product (not selling), so why would Apple bother with it anymore? After all, there is no need for headless machines when there are iMacs. Apple updates the mini, I suppose just to make me happy, as you know better that they don't sell, right?
I think my complaints were fairly legitimate, and fortunately, it seems Apple agrees. The question remains, then, about the why of all the delays. Since we're not in Apple's meeting room, we can only speculate. I suppose you'll just say it was part of a well-orchestrated plan.
And, even this post is a bit revisionist. The iMac needs an update yet, and up until not all that long ago, it wasn't just the mini in need of an update. Do I need to find you that Mac Rumors 'buy advice' page where pretty much every Mac model across the lineup was 'don't buy'?
I'm really happy about a few of the moves Apple has made recently. I'm glad I was wrong, too (it seems), about them ditching the Mac (at least shorter term). There is still a lot of work to be done on the software side of things, but at least they are finally coming through on the hardware. And, where credit is due, I'll give it. Where I feel they are failing, I'll say it. I've been doing so for decades now.
If an iPad is vertical in a clamshell configuration, it neuters the biggest advantage of an iPad. A lot of people complain about the text editing, insertion placement, text selection, and want a trackpad or mouse support, implying they use an iPad propped up with an external keyboard. But if they used an iPad flat on a table instead of propped up, you could do text editing about as well as with a trackpad. A little buggy in complex web browser text boxes right now, so Apple has to tighten it up, but so far it works. Arrow keys on the software keyboard would be nice, and there’s room on the 12.9 for them. Meta keys would be great too.
It would be plain hard to use the multi-touch gestures when it is propped up by a keyboard case. Hard. You have to reach and lift up your arms. There isn’t solid backing on the iPad combined with the user lifting up their arms. That’s makes it quite unjoyable [is this word better than un-enjoyable?] to use the touchscreen. Virtually impossible to do touchscreen stuff with precision while vertical. You have to be able to rest your arms and wrists on a solid surface.
But you’re not at fault for you’re expectations from the hardware side. Apple markets and sells the iPad with a keyboard presenting the expectation of using it like a MacBook, but does not give you the same ergonomic ability to navigate the device without touching the screen, and that in my opinion makes it impossible to use as a MacBook replacement, despite the apparent marketing, much less a desktop replacement using an external monitor.