Class action suit accuses Apple of selling Macs without needed dust filters

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 42
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,904member
    sacto joe said:
    Sounds like a manufacturing defect, not a design flaw. I’ve certainly never seen this problem personally. I doubt Apple owes anything more than a replacement.

    That’s not to say Apple shouldn’t investigate the issue, assuming it hasn’t already done so. And if they haven’t, then someone’s head needs to roll at Apple.
    For the dust on the air inlet it is a design flaw. No question about it.

    I had it on the 27inch 2009 iMac which slow cooked itself to death.

    Most people don't even know where the openings are and there is no mention of cleaning them anywhere in the manual.

    There is no filter on them either and nothing in the OS to remind users to even try to keep them clear.

    If you live in an area with high humidity the dust becomes 'sticky', making things worse. If you live in a hot climate, things are even worse. If you live near a beach, still worse.

    The dryer on my toilet sees far less use than a computer but has a tiny dust filter that should be cleaned weekly. It would be perfect for an iMac.

    Couple this with Apple's historical tendency to run fans tied to higher heat tolerances and the design becomes questionable.
    edited November 2018
  • Reply 22 of 42
    I wonder how many of these people are smokers? Smoke coats everything in a sticky residue that becomes a dust magnet.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 42
    While I oppose money grabbing lawsuits, unfortunately Apple has a long reputation of refusing to admit to issues that are fairly widespread and refuse to acknowledge them even denying any knowledge when their own support pages are full of the issue.  IMO if Apple did own up to and openly investigate these issues so people didn't feel like their high priced hardware was not built or supported to match the price most would just get them fixed by Apple instead of sueing. Instead it takes lawsuits to get Apple to do what they should without them. 
    atomic101Oferwilliamlondon
  • Reply 24 of 42
    eriamjheriamjh Posts: 1,341member
    I’ve seen dusting and visual darkening on a 2011 21.5” iMac and a 2007/8 24” iMac.  One a non-smoker, the other not.  Both computers were over 5 years old and used regularly.   I think my 2013 27” iMac is starting to show this, too.  

    I can see a settlement coupon to buy a new Mac at a small discount but little else.  

    Dust filters on on a computer?  Show me one that ships with such a thing that isn’t a server or rack-mounted pc.  

    Design defect?   Deficiency is a better word.  It might be distracting and annoying, but it does not truly reduce the usability of the computer.   It’s just lawyers taking their cut.  

    Do do any other all-in-ones have this issue?  I’d have to say such a dust filter would deviate from industry standard designs.  
  • Reply 25 of 42
    So where's the list of computers that do ship with "dust filters"? I'm guessing that including a "dust filter" would require very loud fan noise due to the filter making it harder to cool the internal components. 
    williamlondon
  • Reply 26 of 42
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,382member
    sirozha said:
    I’m having this problem with a band of dust along the right edge of the 27” Apple LED Cinema Display. The dust is not between the LED display and the outer glass cover. It’s actually inside (or behind) the LED display itself. 
    I had the exact same issue with two of Apple's 30" displays a few years ago and now with a 27" Apple display.  Both sides have several inches of the marks showing down both sides although only very noticeable on a plain white screen.  I wasn't aware of what caused it but perhaps it is dust.  To those saying it is the dusty environment, I work in a home office that is pretty dust free but obviously not totally here in Florida as pollen counts are pretty high year round.  I have no idea where the marks are located as such, only that they are there and show on screen. To be honest I never thought to complain about it as this only starts to show after several years and I assumed it was just 'what happened' with LCD screens.  I recently bought some Dell 4K monitors so this will be my first run with none Apple LCD monitors.
    edited November 2018
  • Reply 27 of 42
    dewmedewme Posts: 3,827member
    Since when have consumer grade computers been legally required to have dust filters? Do Dell, Lenovo, HP, etc., computers have dust filters? The only time I've seen a dust filter in a consumer grade computer is when I purchased an industrial grade case for a system I built myself. What's next, failure to install protection devices on consumer grade computers to guard against coronal mass ejections (CME) and electromagnetic pulse (EMP) events?

    <imho> The only thing I can say is that there is absolutely no limit on what people are willing to instigate a lawsuit against Apple over, at least not while there is at least one lawyer left standing who will take on the case. Apple has money, lots of money, and lots of people want Apple's money. I completely understand the reason for having the class action mechanism in place, but the mechanism is being grossly abused by opportunists trying to game the system. The lawyers who take on class action cases that are found to be without merit are complicit in perpetuating fraud and should be required to compensate the public coffers for wasting the time and money spent on dragging these cases through the court system. The legal system is being used as a gambling casino, and class action lawsuits allow anyone to play a high stakes game with the high rollers with no fear of losing any on their own money. </imho>

    Apple should send the plaintiffs a strip of fibrous filter material (like you find in furnace/HVAC filters) and a small roll of duct tape. "Dear Valued Customer: Enclosed find your optional, user-installed dust filter per your request. Remove filter once a month, wash and dry it, and reinstall using the supplied duct tape. Enjoy."
    docno42pscooter63
  • Reply 28 of 42
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,904member
    So where's the list of computers that do ship with "dust filters"? I'm guessing that including a "dust filter" would require very loud fan noise due to the filter making it harder to cool the internal components. 
    I think that angle is besides the point.

    The air inlets on any device are there to get air into the unit. Anything that reduces or stops that happening, means the purpose of the inlets is compromised.

    On iMacs (at least mine) the inlets are not actually visible during normal use and the maintenance instructions make no mention of them. Nor does the system require users to periodically keep them clean.

    Of course, through normal use, the accumulation is a slow process. Problems are likely to occur out of warranty. 

    What other AIO do or do not do is irrelevant.

    It is these kinds of 'hidden' issues that largely go unnoticed until someone presents a formal complaint. If the complaint prospers, you can bet Apple and other manufacturers will make design changes. If it doesn't, then manufacturers will probably do nothing.

    Fan noise is design/and component dependent. They don't have to be 'loud'.
  • Reply 29 of 42
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,382member
    As someone who is in the Apple repair business, including several years of warranty repair work, I think this lawsuit is nonsense. I’ve dealt with many cases where in the course of doing things like RAM or HD upgrades or replacements I would find the insides of the computer caked in dust. Computer still ran fine. An extreme example is the time I found the inside of an iMac caked with white powder. I installed an SSD into the computer after clearing out the powder. I asked the customer afterwards what was going on with her computer and she told me she often got ready for her day by powdering herself in front of the computer. Another case was the woman who called me to set up her computer. She was a hoarder who lived in a filthy house and she smoked. The computer had been purchased the previous year and was sitting out of the box on a table but still wrapped in the original clear plastic. There was a distinct yellow stain on the exposed metal parts of the computer but thankfully not on the screen that had been protected by the plastic. I set the computer up for her and the computer ran for a day and a half before it died. Wouldn’t start to save her life and the warranty had expired since it had been a year since she bought it. I took it to the Apple Store, explained the unusual situation of a year old computer which had hardly been used but had died. My story was buttressed by the yellow stain which was clearly visible only on the exposed parts of the computer. They verified my story by checking the amount of time the hardware had been used, which the computer keeps in somewhere in PRAM. Ended up charging her $50 labor for the logic board replacement because the also found the interior caked with cigarette residue. I usually find Apple to be reasonably easy and fair to work with in these situations. They’re often willing to help and bend the rules to be helpful as long as you aren’t a jerk and can clearly explain the situation to them.
    I don't see any relevance to the article in your anecdotal story, it is about a specific issue in monitors which I happen to also see on mine.  I could talk about the large repair departments I had at the official Apple Dealerships I ran with lots of stories of customers' self-made damage but I still am now looking at these marks down both sides of an Apple LCD 27", so stories from the past wouldn't make them vanish, would they?  Later,  if I remember  I'll take a photograph of mine for you and post it.  I am not currently in my office where the large equipment is as I am on the road using my MBP.  As I point out in the post a few moments ago this is my third Apple LCD monitor with the issue.  I am not asking for any lawsuit but I would like to see Apple investigate this and prevent it from happening if at all possible in the future.
  • Reply 30 of 42
    herbapouherbapou Posts: 2,227member
    I have yet to see a PC with an air filter....  I remember opening my Pc's so full of dust I had to take them outside to dust them off with an air can.
    I did try to dust off my imac using a can and pushing air at the bottom so dust will come out of top.  Worked but I am not sure its safe to do.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 31 of 42
    neilmneilm Posts: 902member
    We have a fleet of 27" iMacs at the office. The oldest dates to 2011, a couple are pretty new, and the rest someplace in between. These are in intensive use 40+ hours a week, which is way more than any home computer. I've never seen any screen issues. The office is reasonably clean, and of course no smoking, but does have forced air HVAC.

    However I'm quite sure that there's plenty of dust on their logic boards. We used to have Mac Pro 'cheese graters,' which being upgradeable did get opened up regularly. I've used canned air to blow the dust out of their interiors many times, and done the same for laptops I've disassembled too. Because of their size the Pros usually lived on the carpeted floor under desks, which certainly made their dust inhalation worse. iMacs, which are obviously up on a desk top, get less exposure.

    I would like the iMac to be practical to open up for occasional cleaning, but I guess that's never going to happen. I don't believe I've ever seen a personal computer with air filtration.
  • Reply 32 of 42
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,382member
    neilm said:
    We have a fleet of 27" iMacs at the office. The oldest dates to 2011, a couple are pretty new, and the rest someplace in between. These are in intensive use 40+ hours a week, which is way more than any home computer. I've never seen any screen issues. The office is reasonably clean, and of course no smoking, but does have forced air HVAC.

    However I'm quite sure that there's plenty of dust on their logic boards. We used to have Mac Pro 'cheese graters,' which being upgradeable did get opened up regularly. I've used canned air to blow the dust out of their interiors many times, and done the same for laptops I've disassembled too. Because of their size the Pros usually lived on the carpeted floor under desks, which certainly made their dust inhalation worse. iMacs, which are obviously up on a desk top, get less exposure.

    I would like the iMac to be practical to open up for occasional cleaning, but I guess that's never going to happen. I don't believe I've ever seen a personal computer with air filtration.
    Given I have such marks in an Apple LCD (in fact three to date) and you don't it makes me suspect it could be a manufacturing issue.  I wonder if different manufacturers were used, thus some do and some don't allow 'something to happen' at the edges of the screens.  I am not totally convinced it is dust.  I actually had thought it could be heat damage to some plastic film as all my Apple LCDs get very hot.  I didn't realize how hot until I recently bought two Dell LCDs which run almost cold.  Note mine are all stand-alone monitors as I use Mac Pros, I've not had an iMac in years.
    edited November 2018
  • Reply 33 of 42
    I'm curious why the dust is destroying the screen.

    If one disassembles and removes the dust, how is the internal LCD needing replacement?  Is the dust getting somewhere it can't be removed?

    My 2009 27" iMac has the magnetic cover glass, then the ?very?fragile? LCD panel under it.  If dust is in between glass & panel, can't it be removed?

    The LCD itself is of course a sub-assembly with it's own outer/inner/pixel layers.  Is dust getting into even THOSE insides?

    E.

    My sympathies to all with the issue.
    edited November 2018
  • Reply 34 of 42
    herbapouherbapou Posts: 2,227member
    I'm curious why the dust is destroying the screen.

    If one disassembles and removes the dust, how is the internal LCD needing replacement?  Is the dust getting somewhere it can't be removed?

    My 2009 27" iMac has the magnetic cover glass, then the ?very?fragile? LCD panel under it.  If dust is in between glass & panel, can't it be removed?

    The LCD itself is of course a sub-assembly with it's own outer/inner/pixel layers.  Is dust getting into even THOSE insides?

    E.

    My sympathies to all with the issue.
    I had dust problems on my 2009 imac because back then the screens were not laminated with the glass.  So I had dust coming between the screen and the glass. Not a problem on my 2012 imac.  My GPU failed 2 years after purchased.  The Apple tech cleaned the glass and the screen at the same time they repaired the GPU.
    edited November 2018
  • Reply 35 of 42
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,904member
    I'm curious why the dust is destroying the screen.

    If one disassembles and removes the dust, how is the internal LCD needing replacement?  Is the dust getting somewhere it can't be removed?

    My 2009 27" iMac has the magnetic cover glass, then the ?very?fragile? LCD panel under it.  If dust is in between glass & panel, can't it be removed?

    The LCD itself is of course a sub-assembly with it's own outer/inner/pixel layers.  Is dust getting into even THOSE insides?

    E.

    My sympathies to all with the issue.
    On your iMac the dust can be removed. Apple used to have a dust removal kit for this, that techs used on reassembling the screen. When I had my HD replaced the tech spent 15min on the drive and much more on eliminating the dust! Ha!
  • Reply 36 of 42
    williamh said:
    There's also the possibility that some people just live like pigs.  Anyone who claims to have had a computer replaced 3 times due to dust does not have a computer problem.  That person has a dust problem.  

    I'd also like to suggest that the very fact that something can go wrong with a product, even if that problem can be reasonably foreseen, doesn't entitle anyone to compensation.  That's called a learning experience - If it broke too soon, don't buy that again.  

    If you think I'm just an Apple fanboy, you're generally right.   But OTOH, I am finding Apple products are getting a bit flakey for what they cost and they're generally less serviceable than ever.  I'm not super happy with my year-old MacBook.  Not thrilled when my $300 Beats failed pretty quickly (thanks for fixing them though Apple).  Not thrilled with how an Apple Watch failed not long after the warranty was done. My daughter's MacBook was effing up the other day (overheating, wouldn't start up for several days - until it did). My wife's complains about her MacBook Pro - though that might be her.  In my professional life I work with a lot of different equipment so I know "the other side" perfectly well too.   I'll think about all of this (and the good stuff too) next time I need to buy things.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_warranty
    williamlondon
  • Reply 37 of 42
    Another example of Apple shooting itself in the foot by sealing their boxes shut or making it almost impossible to open the devices.

    I work in Radiology and we use many different kinds of computers and do so in a carefully climate controlled environment. Despite this, we still regularly clean for dust. 

    Apple's stupid obsession with overly thin devices with no I/O and no easy user access is not appreciated. Batterygate would have been so much faster and simpler with an iPhone designed to have user exchanged batteries. This issue would have been a non-issue had they made the laptops and iMacs easy to keep clean. Even the 2018 Mac mini I am typing this on shows the tone deafness as the computer has to be taken apart just to add memory.

    Maybe slipping below Microsoft in valuation will wake them up.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 38 of 42
    dee_dee said:
    DAalseth said:
    Evans had the screen on his iMac replaced three times, twice at his own expense, and also paid $900 to have his logic board replaced after his computer began to overheat and slow down.
    Then he has an environmental problem in the location where he is using his Mac. That isn't Apple's fault.
    That's right.  Everyone knows you can only use Mac's in completely dust free environments.  Like a clean room.  I'm 100% behind this class action.  
    This guy replaced his Mac three times -- if Macs were that blatantly defective there'd be a ton of cases like this, yet this is the first we've heard of it. So for him to have "three bad ones" is unlikely, and his environment is more suspect.
    neilmwilliamlondon
  • Reply 39 of 42
    But seriously, if anyone wants to keep their “computer” dust-free, get one that’s completely sealed, like an iPad.
  • Reply 40 of 42
    YP101YP101 Posts: 132member
    PC case with air filter in it is most likely high end. Not from OEM build. Other than maybe gaming PC. Which it has high price tag.

    Anyway I never saw OEM build PC with air filter. Most of house(unless you are living in fab style clean room) has dust no matter how clean you are.
    When you go outside and come back dust from outside will come in with you.
    Also specially the people living with their shoe in house will have more dust.

    I thought Apple fixed that problem as laminate the screen on glass. Only older model that screen was separated.
    I think older model has foil seal between screen panel and body. Maybe that seal peal off due to bad batch or high temp or humid area.

    Also my church brother has old 2006 iMac(white case) and still running fine. He is not the guy very clean. I can see the dust in his desk all over place.
    Specially behind the iMac and Notebook stand. HP notebook from 2007 still alive as well.
    Funny thing is all these years I don't think he never clean his notebook or iMac.
    I don't see any dust build up between screen panel and glass.




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