ECG feature in Apple Watch is already saving lives [u]

2»

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 39
    knowitall said:
    It isn’t an ECG the AW measures, it’s only a rhythm measurement, that’s a big difference.
    Apple shouldn’t call it that way.
    Wrong. 

    Yet another post by “knowitall” not knowing anything, it seems. 
    edited December 2018 GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 22 of 39
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 7,470member
    Can’t wait for the first class action claiming the Watch didn’t detect a heart problem or one that claims a false positive caused a user's emotional distress and anxiety. When it comes to American culture I’ve become a complete cynic. 
    viclauyycwonkothesane
  • Reply 23 of 39
    jdgazjdgaz Posts: 358member
    lkrupp said:
    So NBC Nightly News with Lester Holt did a negative hit piece on the ECG feature on tonight’s newscast. It emphasized possible problems with false positives and Apple’s warning that it is not intended to actually diagnose anything. The segment was negative all the way through.
    Do people still watch network news, I mean commentary. Such a waste of time to hear someone tell you what they think instead of simply the facts. 
    viclauyyc
  • Reply 24 of 39
    macmarcus said:
    bageljoey said:
    I have been happy with my Series 3 Apple Watch. I was planning on skipping 4 even though I like the better screen.
    ...but should I risk my life to save a few hundred dollars?
    The bigger, better screen alone is worth the upgrade. The ECG feature to me was a great idea so mostly upgraded for that. However, using the 4 for a couple months I must say the screen is so superior it is worth it just for that.
    I fully agree having switched from the Gen 3. 
  • Reply 25 of 39
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 5,295member
    sflagel said:
    bageljoey said:
    I have been happy with my Series 3 Apple Watch. I was planning on skipping 4 even though I like the better screen.
    ...but should I risk my life to save a few hundred dollars?
    I read that atrial fibrillation is not life threatening. It increases your chances of a stroke (but so does eating too much chocolate). And it does not require an “ECG” to recognise it, it’s symptom is an irregular pulse, which is why Series 2 and 3 can also detect it. So what the ECG for? Is there a doctor in this forum that can explain it better than the NHS website? 
    Its really a matter of precision:   The optical sensor can only measure heart rate sporadically (like every second or so at best) and is, compared to an electronic measurement) imprecise.  Think about it:   a normal heart beats at least once a second or more -- so if you only sample it every second or two you are limited in how precise you could be.  The electronic ECG on the AW is a much more precise measurement -- precise enough to produce the graph that they show and that physician can measure the peaks and valleys -- instead of simply saying the heart rate was "irregular".

    An analogy would be a couple years ago when Cleveland Clinic cardiophysiologists compared various wrist based optical heart rate measurements to chest straps and to medical grade equipment:
    The medical equipment was the standard and regarded as 100% accurate.
    The chest strap (which does an electronic measurement) was second most accurate at 99%
    The Apple Watch (probably a Series 0, 1 or 2) was third at 90%
    Other fitness trackers were less accurate at measuring heart rate.

    So, its a matter of precision.

    I hope that Apple could devise a way to do all heart rate tracking electronically from the wrist and get rid of the less than accurate, battery eating optical sensor.
  • Reply 26 of 39
    knowitallknowitall Posts: 1,463member
    knowitall said:
    It isn’t an ECG the AW measures, it’s only a rhythm measurement, that’s a big difference.
    Apple shouldn’t call it that way.
    Wrong. 

    Yet another post by “knowitall” not knowing anything, it seems. 
    Eh no, your wrong, it isn’t an ECG, if it was it should have 5 ‘derivative’ readings and that’s not the case.
    Please point out what things I’m not correct (with valid arguments) ... can’t wait.
  • Reply 27 of 39
    knowitallknowitall Posts: 1,463member
    roake said:
    knowitall said:
    It isn’t an ECG the AW measures, it’s only a rhythm measurement, that’s a big difference.
    Apple shouldn’t call it that way.
    It actually IS an ECG on the Series 4, just with fewer leads than the ones done in your doctors office.
    Not according to my information source also Intensive care unit, also an expert view.
    Maybe a question of definitions then, I understand it’s a combination of pulse reading and electric reading on the AW, but for an ECG you need multiple electric readings, so this does not qualify as an ECG (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrocardiography ).
    edited December 2018
  • Reply 28 of 39
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 5,295member
    knowitall said:
    roake said:
    knowitall said:
    It isn’t an ECG the AW measures, it’s only a rhythm measurement, that’s a big difference.
    Apple shouldn’t call it that way.
    It actually IS an ECG on the Series 4, just with fewer leads than the ones done in your doctors office.
    Not according to my information source also Intensive care unit, also an expert view.
    Maybe a question of definitions then, I understand it’s a combination of pulse reading and electric reading, but for an ECG you need multiple electric readings, so this does not qualify as an ECG.
    Yeh -- that's the standard medical 12 lead ECG.
    The one on the Apple Watch is a single lead ECG.  It's still an ECG but, while it is accurate, it does not supply the wealth of information a trained cardiologist can glean from a full 12 lead ECG.

    Taber's Medical Dictionary defines ECG as:  "A record of the electrical activity of the heart ....  the electrocardiogram gives important information concerning the spread of electricity to different parts of the heart and is used to diagnose rhythm and conduction disturbances, myocardial infarction or ischemia, chamber enlargement, and metabolic disorders among others...."

    But a single lead ECG, like that from the Apple Watch, can only detect rhythm disturbances.
  • Reply 29 of 39
    This is ridiculous. Knowitall is wrong and Roake is correct.

    There are two (2) different measurements using two (2) different sensor types.

    (1) "Continuously" monitoring one's pulse can show a pattern that is highly correlated with a control group of people with diagnosed Afib. That was the point of the Apple Heart Study - to more precisely determine the pulse patterns indicative of Afib. Available on all AWs using the pulse sensor.

    (2) The ECG which is in fact an actual ECG using electrical activity to create a graphic of the fundamental parts of a heart beat to show the electrical impulse wave. Again it is in fact an actual ECG and is available only on the AW4 when using the ECG app and the two electrical sensors (in back of watch and digital crown).

    The end.

    https://www.apple.com/apple-watch-series-4/health/
    edited December 2018 SoliStrangeDaysRayz2016
  • Reply 30 of 39
    knowitallknowitall Posts: 1,463member
    knowitall said:
    roake said:
    knowitall said:
    It isn’t an ECG the AW measures, it’s only a rhythm measurement, that’s a big difference.
    Apple shouldn’t call it that way.
    It actually IS an ECG on the Series 4, just with fewer leads than the ones done in your doctors office.
    Not according to my information source also Intensive care unit, also an expert view.
    Maybe a question of definitions then, I understand it’s a combination of pulse reading and electric reading, but for an ECG you need multiple electric readings, so this does not qualify as an ECG.
    Yeh -- that's the standard medical 12 lead ECG.
    The one on the Apple Watch is a single lead ECG.  It's still an ECG but, while it is accurate, it does not supply the wealth of information a trained cardiologist can glean from a full 12 lead ECG.

    Taber's Medical Dictionary defines ECG as:  "A record of the electrical activity of the heart ....  the electrocardiogram gives important information concerning the spread of electricity to different parts of the heart and is used to diagnose rhythm and conduction disturbances, myocardial infarction or ischemia, chamber enlargement, and metabolic disorders among others...."

    But a single lead ECG, like that from the Apple Watch, can only detect rhythm disturbances.
    Exactly, especially the last part.
    A definition I find disputes yours, it mentions for example recognition of a heart attack; for the condition of the heart muscle you really need a (full) ECG: https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3212
  • Reply 31 of 39
    knowitall said:
    It isn’t an ECG the AW measures, it’s only a rhythm measurement, that’s a big difference.
    Apple shouldn’t call it that way.
    The FDA classifies the ECG App as: Electrocardiograph software for over-the-counter use.

    So I think it's okay for Apple to say: With the ECG app, Apple Watch Series 4 is capable of generating an ECG similar to a single-lead electrocardiogram.

    It, of course, isn't a 12-lead ECG. But Apple doesn't claim that it is.
    SoliStrangeDaysRayz2016
  • Reply 32 of 39
    knowitall said:
    knowitall said:
    It isn’t an ECG the AW measures, it’s only a rhythm measurement, that’s a big difference.
    Apple shouldn’t call it that way.
    Wrong. 

    Yet another post by “knowitall” not knowing anything, it seems. 
    Eh no, your wrong, it isn’t an ECG, if it was it should have 5 ‘derivative’ readings and that’s not the case.
    Please point out what things I’m not correct (with valid arguments) ... can’t wait.
    See the post by the actual ICU physician Roake on this thread who said you’re wrong and it’s an ECG, which is why Apple calls it that. The AW also does pulse-based measurements, but that’s different than what this electrical-conduction-based sensor is doing. 

    Based on your other posts you’re confusing a 12-lead ECG as being the only sort of ECG possible, which is simply not the case. The AW is a single-lead ECG, but it is still measure electrical conduction rhythms, not pulses. 

    Others have explained this and provided links including the FDA stance. You simply misunderstood what an ECG was, end of story. 
    edited December 2018 SoliRayz2016
  • Reply 33 of 39
    This update impacts the battery life on my S4 by A LOT. Now I have to charge my apple watch everyday since I updated, where I use to do it every 2 days, sometimes even 3. The worst part is that I haven't even exercise that much and the battery still drains fast.
  • Reply 34 of 39
    knowitall said:
    knowitall said:
    roake said:
    knowitall said:
    It isn’t an ECG the AW measures, it’s only a rhythm measurement, that’s a big difference.
    Apple shouldn’t call it that way.
    It actually IS an ECG on the Series 4, just with fewer leads than the ones done in your doctors office.
    Not according to my information source also Intensive care unit, also an expert view.
    Maybe a question of definitions then, I understand it’s a combination of pulse reading and electric reading, but for an ECG you need multiple electric readings, so this does not qualify as an ECG.
    Yeh -- that's the standard medical 12 lead ECG.
    The one on the Apple Watch is a single lead ECG.  It's still an ECG but, while it is accurate, it does not supply the wealth of information a trained cardiologist can glean from a full 12 lead ECG.

    Taber's Medical Dictionary defines ECG as:  "A record of the electrical activity of the heart ....  the electrocardiogram gives important information concerning the spread of electricity to different parts of the heart and is used to diagnose rhythm and conduction disturbances, myocardial infarction or ischemia, chamber enlargement, and metabolic disorders among others...."

    But a single lead ECG, like that from the Apple Watch, can only detect rhythm disturbances.
    Exactly, especially the last part.
    A definition I find disputes yours, it mentions for example recognition of a heart attack; for the condition of the heart muscle you really need a (full) ECG: https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3212
    No, it doesn't dispute anything.  In medical parlance, when one speaks of an "ECG" they mean a full 12 lead ECG.   I have never seen or heard of a medical facility using a single lead ECG, 12 lead is assumed.  And, if fewer leads are placed (for expediency) it is then specified as such.   It is only with things like the Apple Watch where it became an issue.
  • Reply 35 of 39
    SoliSoli Posts: 9,388member
    knowitall said:
    knowitall said:
    roake said:
    knowitall said:
    It isn’t an ECG the AW measures, it’s only a rhythm measurement, that’s a big difference.
    Apple shouldn’t call it that way.
    It actually IS an ECG on the Series 4, just with fewer leads than the ones done in your doctors office.
    Not according to my information source also Intensive care unit, also an expert view.
    Maybe a question of definitions then, I understand it’s a combination of pulse reading and electric reading, but for an ECG you need multiple electric readings, so this does not qualify as an ECG.
    Yeh -- that's the standard medical 12 lead ECG.
    The one on the Apple Watch is a single lead ECG.  It's still an ECG but, while it is accurate, it does not supply the wealth of information a trained cardiologist can glean from a full 12 lead ECG.

    Taber's Medical Dictionary defines ECG as:  "A record of the electrical activity of the heart ....  the electrocardiogram gives important information concerning the spread of electricity to different parts of the heart and is used to diagnose rhythm and conduction disturbances, myocardial infarction or ischemia, chamber enlargement, and metabolic disorders among others...."

    But a single lead ECG, like that from the Apple Watch, can only detect rhythm disturbances.
    Exactly, especially the last part.
    A definition I find disputes yours, it mentions for example recognition of a heart attack; for the condition of the heart muscle you really need a (full) ECG: https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3212
     In medical parlance...
    JFC!  🤦‍♂️♾
  • Reply 36 of 39
    thttht Posts: 3,323member
    You can think of the Watch 4 ECG measurement as a computational ECG, like computational photography takes advantage of high performance compute engines and fast CCD sensors to do a bunch of things that a large sensor camera with big glass can do.

    It’s the first iteration, so we looking at where phones cameras were in the iPhone 4 era maybe, but with time, the Watch’s measurement technique will be able to extract more and more information and come closer and closer to a multi-contact measurement device. It measures the body’s electrical currents in a circuit from the wrist, up the arm, through the chest, down the other arm, through the fingertips and back to the Watch. The signal content is all there.

    Multi-lead measurements make it easier to isolate things, and it is a very mature technique. But with what the Watch is doing, time, more compute power, better sensors on the Watch (frequency, sensitivity), the potential is there to be about as good as a existing “medical” grade ECG machines.

    There will likely come a time where the Watch can measure you heart for hours on end as well, with the user doing things they do normally. That type of data is something that isn’t done at doctor visit, represents a different class of data that doctors have access to, and it’s a gigantic amount of information for a compute engine to infer medical condition.

    Medical companies will eventually have shirts or clothing, with multiple leads and all, that’ll do this, but Apple obviously has a huge silicon and programming advantage versus a lot of these companies.
  • Reply 37 of 39
    Soli said:
    knowitall said:
    knowitall said:
    roake said:
    knowitall said:
    It isn’t an ECG the AW measures, it’s only a rhythm measurement, that’s a big difference.
    Apple shouldn’t call it that way.
    It actually IS an ECG on the Series 4, just with fewer leads than the ones done in your doctors office.
    Not according to my information source also Intensive care unit, also an expert view.
    Maybe a question of definitions then, I understand it’s a combination of pulse reading and electric reading, but for an ECG you need multiple electric readings, so this does not qualify as an ECG.
    Yeh -- that's the standard medical 12 lead ECG.
    The one on the Apple Watch is a single lead ECG.  It's still an ECG but, while it is accurate, it does not supply the wealth of information a trained cardiologist can glean from a full 12 lead ECG.

    Taber's Medical Dictionary defines ECG as:  "A record of the electrical activity of the heart ....  the electrocardiogram gives important information concerning the spread of electricity to different parts of the heart and is used to diagnose rhythm and conduction disturbances, myocardial infarction or ischemia, chamber enlargement, and metabolic disorders among others...."

    But a single lead ECG, like that from the Apple Watch, can only detect rhythm disturbances.
    Exactly, especially the last part.
    A definition I find disputes yours, it mentions for example recognition of a heart attack; for the condition of the heart muscle you really need a (full) ECG: https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3212
     In medical parlance...
    JFC!  🤦‍♂️♾
    Your time would be better spent educating yourself rather than trolling...
  • Reply 38 of 39
    tht said:
    ...

    Multi-lead measurements make it easier to isolate things, and it is a very mature technique. But with what the Watch is doing, time, more compute power, better sensors on the Watch (frequency, sensitivity), the potential is there to be about as good as a existing “medical” grade ECG machines.

    There will likely come a time where the Watch can measure you heart for hours on end as well,
    ...
    I think it unlikely that the Apple Watch will ever develop the ability to provide the wealth of information that a 12 lead ECG provides.   It's not a matter of accuracy or computational power.  Rather each of the 12 leads needs to be positioned on a certain spot of the body and, if you get the wrong lead in the wrong spot the results will be messed up -- because each lead is getting a different signal from that part of the body.

    But I too look forward to the Apple Watch providing better/continuous heart monitoring.  And I suspect that the electrical sensor used in the ECG may be the key to open that door.   Currently, the optical sensor just uses too much battery to run it continuously throughout the day.
  • Reply 39 of 39
    roakeroake Posts: 668member
    knowitall said:
    knowitall said:
    It isn’t an ECG the AW measures, it’s only a rhythm measurement, that’s a big difference.
    Apple shouldn’t call it that way.
    Wrong. 

    Yet another post by “knowitall” not knowing anything, it seems. 
    Eh no, your wrong, it isn’t an ECG, if it was it should have 5 ‘derivative’ readings and that’s not the case.
    Please point out what things I’m not correct (with valid arguments) ... can’t wait.
    I'll simply said that I am Board Certified as knowing what I'm talking about.  The Apple Watch produces a valid ECG.
Sign In or Register to comment.