michelb76 said: Which for some people is pointless if it doesn't support CUDA. Or if you can no longer dualboot into windows to plays games. Dumbing down pro machines has never worked for anyone. I'd welcome an Apple GPU in a macbook pro or consumer machine though.
This assumes they care about that, though.
Mike Wuerthele said: Perhaps, but I don't think that there's any argument to be made that iOS devices have stopped selling, or that there's any danger that the installed base is somehow going to fade into oblivion at any time in the next decade or two.
No, but if it's all about growth, it could make Wall Street unhappy.
... Yes, Win10 is no MacOS but it is far from the nightmare of previous versions and for me the benefits of cheap powerful hardware trumps the OS every time. ...
For sure. If you can do w/o macOS as part of your regular workflow, go PC. Or, maybe a Mac and PC, and let the PC do the heavy lifting. But, if we want to do most of our work on/with macOS, then we're kind of stuck with what Apple gives us.
... Yes, Win10 is no MacOS but it is far from the nightmare of previous versions and for me the benefits of cheap powerful hardware trumps the OS every time. ...
For sure. If you can do w/o macOS as part of your regular workflow, go PC. Or, maybe a Mac and PC, and let the PC do the heavy lifting. But, if we want to do most of our work on/with macOS, then we're kind of stuck with what Apple gives us.
That's a perfectly reasonable thing to do to have the best of both worlds. I still have 2x Mac Pros, an iMac and MacBook Pro but they've become dust collectors in a very short time. I planned to do all 3D animation work on the PC and edit on the Mac side but the PC was so much faster at all media tasks, night and day faster, that I do all professional work on the PC. My Macs are relegated to iTunes and Twitter.
I thought I would hate Win10 but I don't, it's not quite as good or consistent as MacOS but I'm quite happy to make a small sacrifice on the OS to have access to hardware that is in a different league faster and at a fraction of the cost of the best Pro level Mac Apple can produce.
There is a malaise at Apple, we've seen it with botched MBP keyboards and now failing screens along with the scam of the i9 CPU option and charging $300 to have a CPU that cannot be cooled sufficiently to make it at all a worthwhile option. Apple is no longer the company that pulled me away from PCs in the first place.
I don't rule out buying Macs in the future but Apple are going to have to make an extremely compelling argument and it'll have to be more than a prettier OS.
UrbaneLegend said: That's a perfectly reasonable thing to do to have the best of both worlds. I still have 2x Mac Pros, an iMac and MacBook Pro but they've become dust collectors in a very short time. I planned to do all 3D animation work on the PC and edit on the Mac side but the PC was so much faster at all media tasks, night and day faster, that I do all professional work on the PC. My Macs are relegated to iTunes and Twitter.
I thought I would hate Win10 but I don't, it's not quite as good or consistent as MacOS but I'm quite happy to make a small sacrifice on the OS to have access to hardware that is in a different league faster and at a fraction of the cost of the best Pro level Mac Apple can produce.
There is a malaise at Apple, we've seen it with botched MBP keyboards and now failing screens along with the scam of the i9 CPU option and charging $300 to have a CPU that cannot be cooled sufficiently to make it at all a worthwhile option. Apple is no longer the company that pulled me away from PCs in the first place.
I don't rule out buying Macs in the future but Apple are going to have to make an extremely compelling argument and it'll have to be more than a prettier OS.
Agreed, especially if you do the vast majority of your work in a single or few specific apps. Then, you kind of make-do for the rest of your workflow. The problem comes in more when you're doing a good portion of your workflow across several apps and disciplines, then you probably either want both machines or will put up with a loss of performance to just be on the Mac.
re: Windows 10 - Yeah, sort of. Again, it probably depends on how much you're in a particular app. But, there are just things that daily bug me down to small levels about how the OS is setup. For example, even things like cut/paste are harder on Windows (ie: key placement for Apple-C vs ctrl-C), or stuff like the control boxes for closing windows. I'm sure muscle-memory eventually helps that, but they just aren't as good from the get-go.
It is a heck of a lot easier to use than it even was a couple years ago (ie: Windows 10 improved that much itself, not just Windows 10 vs previous versions). But, the registry is still there and the rest of the ugliness isn't buried too deep. For example, I had to start over on my setup of the CAD app I'm using, as the install went awry and I just didn't trust trying to fix that, knowing what happens behind the scenes.
re: Apple - Yeah, it's a different company for better or worse. Some love that, some hate it, but it's not the same Apple. It's kind of a mixed bag, even for me. But, ultimately, if they can't keep that Steve-inspired soul alive of fasciation with technology and improving the world, along with primary focus on UX, they'll just be the next has-been corporate entity at some point.
cgWerks said: But, ultimately, if they can't keep that Steve-inspired soul alive of fasciation with technology and improving the world, along with primary focus on UX, they'll just be the next has-been corporate entity at some point.
cgWerks said: But, ultimately, if they can't keep that Steve-inspired soul alive of fasciation with technology and improving the world, along with primary focus on UX, they'll just be the next has-been corporate entity at some point.
Doomed, are they?
At that point, it hardly matters. They can be gone, or be a $10 Trillion company... who cares?
How about us shmucks who own units circa MacBookPro11,3 that paid top-dollar to max-out the performance of their MacBook Pros? These were released in 2014 with Nvidia cards! And we are stuck back in Sierra because Apple has dropped support for them.
I can begrudgingly understand if Apple doesn't want to support Nvidia cards in eGPUs — they weren't supported to begin with. But dropping graphics support for 4-year-old laptops that were 100% built by Apple is user-hostile and bad bad bad.
How about us shmucks who own units circa MacBookPro11,3 that paid top-dollar to max-out the performance of their MacBook Pros? These were released in 2014 with Nvidia cards! And we are stuck back in Sierra because Apple has dropped support for them.
I can begrudgingly understand if Apple doesn't want to support Nvidia cards in eGPUs — they weren't supported to begin with. But dropping graphics support for 4-year-old laptops that were 100% built by Apple is user-hostile and bad bad bad.
Not sure why you'd think it's not supported, all MBPs 2012 onward are supported by Mojave.
There is no reason for apple not to work with Nvidia to make drivers available. This is just plain inexcusable. Apple doesn't make any video cards so there is no competitive reason to exclude them. Tim Cook should be ashamed of himself and Nvidia should stop posturing and get to work. We the customers are the ones who suffer. Maybe now that Apple is learning that they are not God and Nvidia is also not invincible they should work together and stop all this strip silliness.
Apple's decision to block Nvidia from releasing drivers that it, and basically it alone, has responsibility for coding and supporting, is baffling. There's no issue of additional support requirements here... at least none that rise to any level of significance, given that Nvidia is more than capable of providing Apple with all the resources necessary to compensate for any support needed from them in the process of making drivers available for OS X, and Nvidia supports the end user. Nvidia has obviously successfully supported OS X through multiple revisions, all the way up to High Sierra, and there's no evidence that this has caused undue problems. Anyone using an eGPU or a PCIe card in older Mac Pros is well aware that these are not Apple products, and that the company to go to for support is not Apple, but the video card vendor. There's no difference, in that respect, with AMD, in how this breaks the standard "single point of support" 100% controlled platform paradigm that Apple usually operates under. In fact, any device connected via an external Thunderbolt expansion box is also going to break that paradigm, and people plug plenty of things besides video cards into these boxes, with the full understanding that they need to go to the vendor for support.
How about us shmucks who own units circa MacBookPro11,3 that paid top-dollar to max-out the performance of their MacBook Pros? These were released in 2014 with Nvidia cards! And we are stuck back in Sierra because Apple has dropped support for them.
I can begrudgingly understand if Apple doesn't want to support Nvidia cards in eGPUs — they weren't supported to begin with. But dropping graphics support for 4-year-old laptops that were 100% built by Apple is user-hostile and bad bad bad.
Not sure why you'd think it's not supported, all MBPs 2012 onward are supported by Mojave.
I'm still using my 2010 Mac Pro almost every day. It's got a MacVidCads GTX 980 in it.
I was considering an upgade to a 1080, but that's on hold now.
We use CUDA at work and it's been very annoying that there are no recent Macs with Nvidia.
I find that I'm just using W10 more and more, even though I don't like it. MacOS is nice, but if the hardware isn't there, it will not sell and erode the MacOS ecosystem to the point where developers leave and that includes the iOS developers.
Some articles say Apple turned its back on customers and Nvidia. I say Apple is protecting their customers and the ecosystem from the likes of Nvidia. I applaud 👏🏼👏🏼 Apple's decision.
Some articles say Apple turned its back on customers and Nvidia. I say Apple is protecting their customers and the ecosystem from the likes of Nvidia. I applaud 👏🏼👏🏼 Apple's decision.
That article was for a video, and based on this one.
It is possible NVIDIA web drivers might NEVER be released for Mojave. In my specific case, it is for NVIDIA GeForce GTX960 running on Mac Pro
mid-2012 5,1 running High Sierra with up to date NVIDIA web drivers, on 2 x 40" 4K monitors via DP, and on System Information>Graphics/Displays, it states Metal: Supported, feature set macOS GPUFamily1 v3.
Considering the amount of money I have paid for a variety of NVIDIA
cards and Apple products over decades (tens of thousands of pounds), including every generation of Mac from the first Mac Plus in 1988 to Mac Pro 2012, and every generation of iPad and iPhone up to 10XS Max, I think it only fair that if
support for NVIDIA's GTX960 card on the Mac platform is going to be
dropped, then we should simply be told this. Why prevaricate like this? This must be something that
has already been decided long ago, and that means that if support for my GTX960 and others like it HAS been dropped, then NO-ONE is working on a driver that
will allow me to continue to use this product. If no-one is actually
working on Mojave web drivers at NVIDIA, then we should be told this.
This is an easy question to answer. It is simply Yes, or No. Why
should we be left guessing about this?
There is a thread that has been running for a year now on the NVIDIA website at https://devtalk.nvidia.com/default/topic/1042520/drivers/-when-will-the-nvidia-web-drivers-be-released-for-macos-mojave-10-14-/
yet no NVIDIA employee has climbed into this thread to address our
legitimate concerns. This makes me wonder why NVIDIA hosts these forums
at all, if the company doesn't interact with its own customers. That
indicates a lack of interest bordering on contempt for NVIDIA customers who purchased products
in good faith, expecting our high end investment to continue to work on
the same machine it always worked on before.
Personally, I don't see how it is so much harder to write a driver
for Mojave than it has been up to High Sierra, but if it is, then NVIDIA
could let us know one way or the other. I don't care whether it is Apple's fault or NVIDIA's, they should just tell us one way or the other, when or how or whether they're going to throw us under the bus.
There is a thread that has been running for a year now on the NVIDIA website at https://devtalk.nvidia.com/default/topic/1042520/drivers/-when-will-the-nvidia-web-drivers-be-released-for-macos-mojave-10-14-/
yet no NVIDIA employee has climbed into this thread to address our
legitimate concerns. This makes me wonder why NVIDIA hosts these forums
at all, if the company doesn't interact with its own customers. That
indicates a lack of interest bordering on contempt for NVIDIA customers who purchased products
in good faith, expecting our high end investment to continue to work on
the same machine it always worked on before.
This is typical of many companies user forums. Apple doesn’t involve itself with their forums either, and you can find hundreds of threads where someone makes this complaint only to be told “Apple does not monitor these forums”. Forums are for the benefit of user to user tech support, which helps the company by reducing support calls to some degree.
It is particularly annoying for owners of MacBook Pro's with integral Nvidia GPUs. After upgrading to Mojave, we take a hit in graphics performance using the Apple default drivers for Nvidia. We could probably live with that, but we were using our MacBook Pro for parallelized apps that used the Nvidia GPU for sped up computations. Since Nvidia can not upgrade the driver for graphics, it also means the CUDA driver is out of date. On the other hand, we noticed that with High Sierra and using the Nvidia drivers installed before we went to Mojave, there were regular failures of the graphic processor to properly execute, causing screen misdraws and blankouts. These have stopped once we stop using the Nvidia drivers. Perhaps Apple is actually protecting the consumer from problems with the drivers?
Maybe Apple needs to work with AMD into turning the Radeon GPUs into GPUs that are far better than what NVidia can offer. The thing is, Apple doesn't seem all that interested in running games on OSX. Maybe it's just not worth the effort. On the Windows side, everything is nice and open and consumers can buy all the various hardware needed to run the top games. All Apple has is some skinny and sealed iMac that barely keeps a stock CPU from thermal-throttling under full load. Apple is all by itself and unfortunately, that's the way it will stay. Apple's walled garden is made to be totally isolated.
Maybe Apple needs to work with AMD into turning the Radeon GPUs into GPUs that are far better than what NVidia can offer. The thing is, Apple doesn't seem all that interested in running games on OSX. Maybe it's just not worth the effort. On the Windows side, everything is nice and open and consumers can buy all the various hardware needed to run the top games. All Apple has is some skinny and sealed iMac that barely keeps a stock CPU from thermal-throttling under full load. Apple is all by itself and unfortunately, that's the way it will stay. Apple's walled garden is made to be totally isolated.
What are you playing that's not well-served by an eGPU box and top of the line AMD GPU card?
Comments
No, but if it's all about growth, it could make Wall Street unhappy.
For sure. If you can do w/o macOS as part of your regular workflow, go PC. Or, maybe a Mac and PC, and let the PC do the heavy lifting. But, if we want to do most of our work on/with macOS, then we're kind of stuck with what Apple gives us.
I thought I would hate Win10 but I don't, it's not quite as good or consistent as MacOS but I'm quite happy to make a small sacrifice on the OS to have access to hardware that is in a different league faster and at a fraction of the cost of the best Pro level Mac Apple can produce.
There is a malaise at Apple, we've seen it with botched MBP keyboards and now failing screens along with the scam of the i9 CPU option and charging $300 to have a CPU that cannot be cooled sufficiently to make it at all a worthwhile option. Apple is no longer the company that pulled me away from PCs in the first place.
I don't rule out buying Macs in the future but Apple are going to have to make an extremely compelling argument and it'll have to be more than a prettier OS.
re: Windows 10 - Yeah, sort of. Again, it probably depends on how much you're in a particular app. But, there are just things that daily bug me down to small levels about how the OS is setup. For example, even things like cut/paste are harder on Windows (ie: key placement for Apple-C vs ctrl-C), or stuff like the control boxes for closing windows. I'm sure muscle-memory eventually helps that, but they just aren't as good from the get-go.
It is a heck of a lot easier to use than it even was a couple years ago (ie: Windows 10 improved that much itself, not just Windows 10 vs previous versions). But, the registry is still there and the rest of the ugliness isn't buried too deep. For example, I had to start over on my setup of the CAD app I'm using, as the install went awry and I just didn't trust trying to fix that, knowing what happens behind the scenes.
re: Apple - Yeah, it's a different company for better or worse. Some love that, some hate it, but it's not the same Apple. It's kind of a mixed bag, even for me. But, ultimately, if they can't keep that Steve-inspired soul alive of fasciation with technology and improving the world, along with primary focus on UX, they'll just be the next has-been corporate entity at some point.
https://everymac.com/mac-answers/macos-mojave-faq/macos-mojave-1014-compatible-macs-system-requirements.html
(under Tim the Mac degraded to a Twitter/FaceBook client - which is his intellectual perspective)
Nvidia has been responsible for mass recalls of MacBook Pros and even Windows laptops for years due to their poor hardware design and manufacturing. Multiple class action lawsuits have been filed and many of us suffered through their GPU GeForce hardware debacles and paid the price. This article spells it out nicely https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/02/14/video-nvidia-support-was-abandoned-in-macos-mojave-and-heres-why
Some articles say Apple turned its back on customers and Nvidia. I say Apple is protecting their customers and the ecosystem from the likes of Nvidia. I applaud 👏🏼👏🏼 Apple's decision.