The blue collar worker pays their due taxes, and so should the biggest corporations.
Typical simplistic response. Apple DOES pay its taxes, just not enough in the opinion of some. It’s the tired old argument about “fair share”. Apple negotiated a tax agreement with Ireland for example, but the EU wants Ireland to back out of it to get more money out of Apple.
When’s the last time you voluntarily sent some extra money to your government just because you wanted to be fair?
Well, to be absolutely fair, according to a three year investigation by the EU into the Irish agreement, Apple not only decided how much it would make available for taxation but when it did, it paid less than 1%.
We'll see how things play out but you should at least see that doesn't look very fair at all.
Dude, it's not Apple's (or any company's or anyone's) job to pay "their fair share." Their only obligation is to pay what's legally owed. If they get get a sweet heart deal from the elected officials of some country (or state), go complain to those officials. Or should Apple have a Tax Fairness Committee of their Board decide where they should send extra money because it's the right thing to do? I'm pretty sure a majority of shareholders would vote against such a plan. But feel free to do that with your own money.
The blue collar worker pays their due taxes, and so should the biggest corporations.
Typical simplistic response. Apple DOES pay its taxes, just not enough in the opinion of some. It’s the tired old argument about “fair share”. Apple negotiated a tax agreement with Ireland for example, but the EU wants Ireland to back out of it to get more money out of Apple.
When’s the last time you voluntarily sent some extra money to your government just because you wanted to be fair?
Well, to be absolutely fair, according to a three year investigation by the EU into the Irish agreement, Apple not only decided how much it would make available for taxation but when it did, it paid less than 1%.
We'll see how things play out but you should at least see that doesn't look very fair at all.
Dude, it's not Apple's (or any company's or anyone's) job to pay "their fair share." Their only obligation is to pay what's legally owed. If they get get a sweet heart deal from the elected officials of some country (or state), go complain to those officials. Or should Apple have a Tax Fairness Committee of their Board decide where they should send extra money because it's the right thing to do? I'm pretty sure a majority of shareholders would vote against such a plan. But feel free to do that with your own money.
That isn't actually true.
You would imagine it would be and I could almost accept it if it were not for one HUGE problem.
When the Irish problem blew up, Tim Cook himself went on record and said what was being banded around was false because Apple had 'values'.
I suppose the logical question now is to ask TC outright what those values actually mean because on my scale of values, knowingly deciding how much you wish to make available for taxation and then paying hardly anything on it doesn't sit well at all with my own values.
Moreso, as after the fact we have learnt that TC had more than a couple of (supposedly heated) meetings with the competition commissioner and was well aware of the situation that was unfurling.
If the EU claim is upheld and Apple eventually concedes it has to pay Ireland back, TC's words will boomerang back to him like a fiery hot potato from hell.
To paraphrase Phil Schiller: 'values my ass!'
In all seriousness, we have to wait and see how things play out.
I asked Tim why he lied about this statement and said that it will backfire, his answer:
“We selected Ireland in 1980 when Apple was a small company that had minimum or no profits. It was selected for manufacturing skills.”
I then sent this but got no answer back:
Former Apple executives claim the almost tax-free status enjoyed in Ireland by the iPhone and iPad maker dates back to the firm’s arrival here 32 years ago. “There were tax concessions for us to go there,” said Del Yocam, who was vice president of manufacturing at Apple in the 1980s.
Another former finance executive, who asked not to be named, said: “We had a tax holiday for the first 10 years in Ireland. We paid no taxes to the Irish Government. ”
Apple wasn’t an exception, although it was among the last to enjoy such treatment. From 1956 to 1980, Ireland attracted foreign companies by offering a zero rate of tax.
The blue collar worker pays their due taxes, and so should the biggest corporations.
In the end, the customer pays for everything. That includes the blue collar workers enjoying Apple products. I'm not saying corporations shouldn't pay what they owe, I am saying that when you go after corporations as if they're golden geese, the money will come from somewhere - a corporation doesn't just suck it up.
The cool aid too many Americans drink is that endless consuming and low prices is the most important thing in life. Affordable healthcare, affordable higher eduction, paid time for new parents, low rate loans, the important stuff which really makes for a better life don't exist in the USA but cheap meaningless consumer products are everywhere.
I know this is an Apple centric website but guess what Apple products are used in Europe as well and those people have governments which provide the things I mentioned. How those governments accomplish this is with their tax laws. Corporations as well as individuals pay their fair share unlike the upside down tax laws here in the US. Some 30 years later American's still believe that by not taxing the rich we all benefit sooner or later. Guess what trickle down economics don't work. We have returned to the era of the Robber Barons circa 1900. Carnegie = Bezos, Frick = Gates and so on. Why do so many Americans take pride in huge corporations which only benefit the wealthiest?
There have been psychological tests to study why. It seems to do with people’s desire to be wealthy themselves one day, and to defend their own position. In tests where subjects could either give some of their test-issued money up to the person with more than them, or down to the person with less, they usually give it upwards. Why? Because that person can’t threaten the giver’s position in the hierarchy, while giving to the person below their standing can as it emables them to climb upward in rank.
The blue collar worker pays their due taxes, and so should the biggest corporations.
Typical simplistic response. Apple DOES pay its taxes, just not enough in the opinion of some. It’s the tired old argument about “fair share”. Apple negotiated a tax agreement with Ireland for example, but the EU wants Ireland to back out of it to get more money out of Apple.
When’s the last time you voluntarily sent some extra money to your government just because you wanted to be fair?
Well, to be absolutely fair, according to a three year investigation by the EU into the Irish agreement, Apple not only decided how much it would make available for taxation but when it did, it paid less than 1%.
We'll see how things play out but you should at least see that doesn't look very fair at all.
Dude, it's not Apple's (or any company's or anyone's) job to pay "their fair share." Their only obligation is to pay what's legally owed. If they get get a sweet heart deal from the elected officials of some country (or state), go complain to those officials. Or should Apple have a Tax Fairness Committee of their Board decide where they should send extra money because it's the right thing to do? I'm pretty sure a majority of shareholders would vote against such a plan. But feel free to do that with your own money.
That isn't actually true.
You would imagine it would be and I could almost accept it if it were not for one HUGE problem.
When the Irish problem blew up, Tim Cook himself went on record and said what was being banded around was false because Apple had 'values'.
I suppose the logical question now is to ask TC outright what those values actually mean because on my scale of values, knowingly deciding how much you wish to make available for taxation and then paying hardly anything on it doesn't sit well at all with my own values.
Moreso, as after the fact we have learnt that TC had more than a couple of (supposedly heated) meetings with the competition commissioner and was well aware of the situation that was unfurling.
If the EU claim is upheld and Apple eventually concedes it has to pay Ireland back, TC's words will boomerang back to him like a fiery hot potato from hell.
To paraphrase Phil Schiller: 'values my ass!'
In all seriousness, we have to wait and see how things play out.
Yeah nonsense. Apple is the largest US taxpayer. Contrast this with corporations like GE, who famously applied so much creative accounting to lower their tax liability to below zero — the IRS owned them money. It was absurd, and not right. But apparently legal.
What are you folks so obsessed about how much tax Apple has to pay? You should be concerned that you get almost nothing for the taxes you pay if you live in the US. Apple is in the top 3 richest corporations in the world, they must obey the laws of the countries they operate in.
Perhaps because this isn't PublicSectorEfficientUseOfTaxDollarsInsider?
The blue collar worker pays their due taxes, and so should the biggest corporations.
In the end, the customer pays for everything. That includes the blue collar workers enjoying Apple products. I'm not saying corporations shouldn't pay what they owe, I am saying that when you go after corporations as if they're golden geese, the money will come from somewhere - a corporation doesn't just suck it up.
The cool aid too many Americans drink is that endless consuming and low prices is the most important thing in life. Affordable healthcare, affordable higher eduction, paid time for new parents, low rate loans, the important stuff which really makes for a better life don't exist in the USA but cheap meaningless consumer products are everywhere.
I know this is an Apple centric website but guess what Apple products are used in Europe as well and those people have governments which provide the things I mentioned. How those governments accomplish this is with their tax laws. Corporations as well as individuals pay their fair share unlike the upside down tax laws here in the US. Some 30 years later American's still believe that by not taxing the rich we all benefit sooner or later. Guess what trickle down economics don't work. We have returned to the era of the Robber Barons circa 1900. Carnegie = Bezos, Frick = Gates and so on. Why do so many Americans take pride in huge corporations which only benefit the wealthiest?
There have been psychological tests to study why. It seems to do with people’s desire to be wealthy themselves one day, and to defend their own position. In tests where subjects could either give some of their test-issued money up to the person with more than them, or down to the person with less, they usually give it upwards. Why? Because that person can’t threaten the giver’s position in the hierarchy, while giving to the person below their standing can as it emables them to climb upward in rank.
Social-economic defensive maneuver, it seems.
I actually agree with you comment 100%. Our society as with most has a hierarchy and most people only feel good about themselves when they know others have less than themselves. The fantasy of the American dream re-enforces this idea that if you work hard you will have all you ever hoped for "someday". Meanwhile a vast majority of the population goes through life like a hamster on wheel, getting nowhere, fast. I would go as far and say that racism and xenophobia Is kept alive by our class system, people put themselves first here, people like themselves second and everyone else is considered a threat. Drop a layer of religion on top of it all and the biggest lie of all that someday if you are "good" you get to live in a mansion in heaven, actually the more you suffer in this life the better the next one will be. A plan obviously invented by people that had it all and were not willing to share any of it with others.
What are you folks so obsessed about how much tax Apple has to pay? You should be concerned that you get almost nothing for the taxes you pay if you live in the US. Apple is in the top 3 richest corporations in the world, they must obey the laws of the countries they operate in.
I believe Apple has complied with all laws in counties it operates in. It just seems like that when the EU needs more money, they pick some big US Corp and slap a new tax on them. That’s the optics of it, so prove me wrong.
The blue collar worker pays their due taxes, and so should the biggest corporations.
Typical simplistic response. Apple DOES pay its taxes, just not enough in the opinion of some. It’s the tired old argument about “fair share”. Apple negotiated a tax agreement with Ireland for example, but the EU wants Ireland to back out of it to get more money out of Apple.
When’s the last time you voluntarily sent some extra money to your government just because you wanted to be fair?
Well, to be absolutely fair, according to a three year investigation by the EU into the Irish agreement, Apple not only decided how much it would make available for taxation but when it did, it paid less than 1%.
We'll see how things play out but you should at least see that doesn't look very fair at all.
Dude, it's not Apple's (or any company's or anyone's) job to pay "their fair share." Their only obligation is to pay what's legally owed. If they get get a sweet heart deal from the elected officials of some country (or state), go complain to those officials. Or should Apple have a Tax Fairness Committee of their Board decide where they should send extra money because it's the right thing to do? I'm pretty sure a majority of shareholders would vote against such a plan. But feel free to do that with your own money.
That isn't actually true.
You would imagine it would be and I could almost accept it if it were not for one HUGE problem.
When the Irish problem blew up, Tim Cook himself went on record and said what was being banded around was false because Apple had 'values'.
I suppose the logical question now is to ask TC outright what those values actually mean because on my scale of values, knowingly deciding how much you wish to make available for taxation and then paying hardly anything on it doesn't sit well at all with my own values.
Moreso, as after the fact we have learnt that TC had more than a couple of (supposedly heated) meetings with the competition commissioner and was well aware of the situation that was unfurling.
If the EU claim is upheld and Apple eventually concedes it has to pay Ireland back, TC's words will boomerang back to him like a fiery hot potato from hell.
To paraphrase Phil Schiller: 'values my ass!'
In all seriousness, we have to wait and see how things play out.
Gee, I wonder how Huawei values compare...I'm sure you can tell us.
I wish some of these European countries would build big companies that we could tax. But, they never seem to. I wonder why?
I look at these dumb people and wonder WHY? I'm not sure why they CARE what taxes Apple pays or doesn't pay. They aren't the tax collectors. Ignoring that, Corporations don't pay taxes. YOU the customer pay the taxes. This is the round about pay for politicians to tax YOU. Oh look at those Evil corporations. That EVIL oil company. They aren't taxes enough or pay their fair share. Whatever that means. Ok, tax them more, prices go up, you pay more. You pay more for that Apple device. You pay more for your GAS. Whatever it is. You are in fact asking the government to tax YOU more money. What do you get out of that? Unless you're sucking off the Government teat, not a whole lot other than more Government waste.
Who put those loopholes into place to help get businesses, etc, it was the Politicians. So on one side they're putting those loopholes into place, and on the other side talking about how evil they are for using those same loopholes. In the end, YOU are the one paying more.
What are you folks so obsessed about how much tax Apple has to pay? You should be concerned that you get almost nothing for the taxes you pay if you live in the US. Apple is in the top 3 richest corporations in the world, they must obey the laws of the countries they operate in.
I believe Apple has complied with all laws in counties it operates in. It just seems like that when the EU needs more money, they pick some big US Corp and slap a new tax on them. That’s the optics of it, so prove me wrong.
For one, since you haven't been following along: The issue is NOT that Apple didn't comply with the laws of Ireland. It's that Irish law was in violation of EU law, because it gave Ireland an unfair competitive advantage when vying for corporate investors. If Irish regulations were illegal under EU law, they weren't enforceable; ergo: Apple owes back taxes.
Whether it's Apple who owes, or Ireland who ought cover for it, is under dispute — which is why the money Apple has put up remains in escrow until it's been decided.
Second: Just because you personally never, ever hear about ANYTHING the EU does unless it concerns an American corporation, doesn't mean it's not happening.
Not all of these are directly tax evasion, but many are effectively that, in terms of illegal subsidies (as is Apple in Ireland): Energy company Engie. Real Madrid - 20.3 Million € (and six other Spanish football teams). Deutsche Post — somewhere between 500 Million and 1 billion €. Belgian B-Post, as well. Nürburgring GmbH (the race track operator) — half a billion. Olympic Airlines — about 150 million. and plenty, plenty more. This is just a couple of choice examples from the first page of a Google search.
I think it may be a symptom of your not being able to think of many European companies beyond Daimler and VW, full stop.
It's sort of like how most Americans seem to think that the EU must hate US corporations and hits them with massive anti-trust punishments (Microsoft, Google), when in fact, there are anti-trust rulings all the time, and the vast majority of them concern illegal pricing cartels between EU corporations. You obviously never hear about that, because it's outside of your sphere of interest.
And in fact, even we here hardly hear about it, because frankly, it's kind of not so interesting to hear that four electronics companies have been fined twenty million Euros for price-fixing the lightbulb market.
The blue collar worker pays their due taxes, and so should the biggest corporations.
In the end, the customer pays for everything. That includes the blue collar workers enjoying Apple products. I'm not saying corporations shouldn't pay what they owe, I am saying that when you go after corporations as if they're golden geese, the money will come from somewhere - a corporation doesn't just suck it up.
Why is it never the inverse when they get a tax break?
What are you folks so obsessed about how much tax Apple has to pay? You should be concerned that you get almost nothing for the taxes you pay if you live in the US. Apple is in the top 3 richest corporations in the world, they must obey the laws of the countries they operate in.
I believe Apple has complied with all laws in counties it operates in. It just seems like that when the EU needs more money, they pick some big US Corp and slap a new tax on them. That’s the optics of it, so prove me wrong.
Obviously the French government believes Apple skirted that countries tax laws. Apple is unlikely the only company to get caught doing this, it just makes headlines when it's one of the top and most visible corporations in the world.
What are you folks so obsessed about how much tax Apple has to pay? You should be concerned that you get almost nothing for the taxes you pay if you live in the US. Apple is in the top 3 richest corporations in the world, they must obey the laws of the countries they operate in.
I believe Apple has complied with all laws in counties it operates in. It just seems like that when the EU needs more money, they pick some big US Corp and slap a new tax on them. That’s the optics of it, so prove me wrong.
Obviously the French government believes Apple skirted that countries tax laws. Apple is unlikely the only company to get caught doing this, it just makes headlines when it's one of the top and most visible corporations in the world.
A couple years back the French tax authorities went after Google claiming they owed $Billions in back taxes, and deciding the Big G owed $1.7B when all was said and done. French courts tossed it out so it's not as tho they can always make their claims stick.
What are you folks so obsessed about how much tax Apple has to pay? You should be concerned that you get almost nothing for the taxes you pay if you live in the US. Apple is in the top 3 richest corporations in the world, they must obey the laws of the countries they operate in.
I believe Apple has complied with all laws in counties it operates in. It just seems like that when the EU needs more money, they pick some big US Corp and slap a new tax on them. That’s the optics of it, so prove me wrong.
For one, since you haven't been following along: The issue is NOT that Apple didn't comply with the laws of Ireland. It's that Irish law was in violation of EU law, because it gave Ireland an unfair competitive advantage when vying for corporate investors. If Irish regulations were illegal under EU law, they weren't enforceable; ergo: Apple owes back taxes.
Whether it's Apple who owes, or Ireland who ought cover for it, is under dispute — which is why the money Apple has put up remains in escrow until it's been decided.
Second: Just because you personally never, ever hear about ANYTHING the EU does unless it concerns an American corporation, doesn't mean it's not happening.
Not all of these are directly tax evasion, but many are effectively that, in terms of illegal subsidies (as is Apple in Ireland): Energy company Engie. Real Madrid - 20.3 Million € (and six other Spanish football teams). Deutsche Post — somewhere between 500 Million and 1 billion €. Belgian B-Post, as well. Nürburgring GmbH (the race track operator) — half a billion. Olympic Airlines — about 150 million. and plenty, plenty more. This is just a couple of choice examples from the first page of a Google search.
I think it may be a symptom of your not being able to think of many European companies beyond Daimler and VW, full stop.
It's sort of like how most Americans seem to think that the EU must hate US corporations and hits them with massive anti-trust punishments (Microsoft, Google), when in fact, there are anti-trust rulings all the time, and the vast majority of them concern illegal pricing cartels between EU corporations. You obviously never hear about that, because it's outside of your sphere of interest.
And in fact, even we here hardly hear about it, because frankly, it's kind of not so interesting to hear that four electronics companies have been fined twenty million Euros for price-fixing the lightbulb market.
Ok, well thank you for explaining some of that. I have been following along, although your point about spheres of interest is well taken. As you point out, it does seem like the EU targets American businesses, and maybe rightly so. My original point to all of this is where are the European mega corporations that get the same treatment by the US government. If Ireland has been breaking EU law for so long, why wasn’t it addressed years ago? Anyway, good discussion.
The blue collar worker pays their due taxes, and so should the biggest corporations.
Typical simplistic response. Apple DOES pay its taxes, just not enough in the opinion of some. It’s the tired old argument about “fair share”. Apple negotiated a tax agreement with Ireland for example, but the EU wants Ireland to back out of it to get more money out of Apple.
When’s the last time you voluntarily sent some extra money to your government just because you wanted to be fair?
Well, to be absolutely fair, according to a three year investigation by the EU into the Irish agreement, Apple not only decided how much it would make available for taxation but when it did, it paid less than 1%.
We'll see how things play out but you should at least see that doesn't look very fair at all.
Dude, it's not Apple's (or any company's or anyone's) job to pay "their fair share." Their only obligation is to pay what's legally owed. If they get get a sweet heart deal from the elected officials of some country (or state), go complain to those officials. Or should Apple have a Tax Fairness Committee of their Board decide where they should send extra money because it's the right thing to do? I'm pretty sure a majority of shareholders would vote against such a plan. But feel free to do that with your own money.
That isn't actually true.
You would imagine it would be and I could almost accept it if it were not for one HUGE problem.
When the Irish problem blew up, Tim Cook himself went on record and said what was being banded around was false because Apple had 'values'.
I suppose the logical question now is to ask TC outright what those values actually mean because on my scale of values, knowingly deciding how much you wish to make available for taxation and then paying hardly anything on it doesn't sit well at all with my own values.
Moreso, as after the fact we have learnt that TC had more than a couple of (supposedly heated) meetings with the competition commissioner and was well aware of the situation that was unfurling.
If the EU claim is upheld and Apple eventually concedes it has to pay Ireland back, TC's words will boomerang back to him like a fiery hot potato from hell.
To paraphrase Phil Schiller: 'values my ass!'
In all seriousness, we have to wait and see how things play out.
Gee, I wonder how Huawei values compare...I'm sure you can tell us.
Is that a pure example of whataboutism?
My stance is the same no matter who is involved but as I said in the Apple case, let's see how things play out. Same applies to Huawei.
Comments
You would imagine it would be and I could almost accept it if it were not for one HUGE problem.
When the Irish problem blew up, Tim Cook himself went on record and said what was being banded around was false because Apple had 'values'.
I suppose the logical question now is to ask TC outright what those values actually mean because on my scale of values, knowingly deciding how much you wish to make available for taxation and then paying hardly anything on it doesn't sit well at all with my own values.
Moreso, as after the fact we have learnt that TC had more than a couple of (supposedly heated) meetings with the competition commissioner and was well aware of the situation that was unfurling.
If the EU claim is upheld and Apple eventually concedes it has to pay Ireland back, TC's words will boomerang back to him like a fiery hot potato from hell.
To paraphrase Phil Schiller: 'values my ass!'
In all seriousness, we have to wait and see how things play out.
https://9to5mac.com/2018/06/21/tim-cook-ireland-interview-tax-data-center/
I asked Tim why he lied about this statement and said that it will backfire, his answer:
“We selected Ireland in 1980 when Apple was a small company that had minimum or no profits. It was selected for manufacturing skills.”
I then sent this but got no answer back:
Former Apple executives claim the almost tax-free status enjoyed in Ireland by the iPhone and iPad maker dates back to the firm’s arrival here 32 years ago. “There were tax concessions for us to go there,” said Del Yocam, who was vice president of manufacturing at Apple in the 1980s.
Another former finance executive, who asked not to be named, said: “We had a tax holiday for the first 10 years in Ireland. We paid no taxes to the Irish Government. ”
Apple wasn’t an exception, although it was among the last to enjoy such treatment. From 1956 to 1980, Ireland attracted foreign companies by offering a zero rate of tax.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/how-apple-first-landed-in-ireland-1.1405766
Social-economic defensive maneuver, it seems.
This is is the difference “values” can make.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/meet-the-18-companies-that-paid-no-taxes-over-8-years/
I would go as far and say that racism and xenophobia Is kept alive by our class system, people put themselves first here, people like themselves second and everyone else is considered a threat. Drop a layer of religion on top of it all and the biggest lie of all that someday if you are "good" you get to live in a mansion in heaven, actually the more you suffer in this life the better the next one will be. A plan obviously invented by people that had it all and were not willing to share any of it with others.
Who put those loopholes into place to help get businesses, etc, it was the Politicians. So on one side they're putting those loopholes into place, and on the other side talking about how evil they are for using those same loopholes. In the end, YOU are the one paying more.
If Irish regulations were illegal under EU law, they weren't enforceable; ergo: Apple owes back taxes.
Whether it's Apple who owes, or Ireland who ought cover for it, is under dispute — which is why the money Apple has put up remains in escrow until it's been decided.
Second: Just because you personally never, ever hear about ANYTHING the EU does unless it concerns an American corporation, doesn't mean it's not happening.
Not all of these are directly tax evasion, but many are effectively that, in terms of illegal subsidies (as is Apple in Ireland):
Energy company Engie.
Real Madrid - 20.3 Million € (and six other Spanish football teams).
Deutsche Post — somewhere between 500 Million and 1 billion €.
Belgian B-Post, as well.
Nürburgring GmbH (the race track operator) — half a billion.
Olympic Airlines — about 150 million.
and plenty, plenty more. This is just a couple of choice examples from the first page of a Google search.
I think it may be a symptom of your not being able to think of many European companies beyond Daimler and VW, full stop.
It's sort of like how most Americans seem to think that the EU must hate US corporations and hits them with massive anti-trust punishments (Microsoft, Google), when in fact, there are anti-trust rulings all the time, and the vast majority of them concern illegal pricing cartels between EU corporations. You obviously never hear about that, because it's outside of your sphere of interest.
And in fact, even we here hardly hear about it, because frankly, it's kind of not so interesting to hear that four electronics companies have been fined twenty million Euros for price-fixing the lightbulb market.
If Ireland has been breaking EU law for so long, why wasn’t it addressed years ago? Anyway, good discussion.
My stance is the same no matter who is involved but as I said in the Apple case, let's see how things play out. Same applies to Huawei.