Apple & Google accused of supporting 'gender apartheid' by hosting Saudi woman-tracking ap...

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  • Reply 41 of 61
    Apple chooses to participate in the Saudi Arabian market. They don’t have to. They could instead consider whether being in a market runs contrary to the values they so publicly espouse. Pulling out would hit their bottom line for sure, but that their choice to consider. 

    It’s up to them. 
    cgWerks
  • Reply 42 of 61
    steven n.steven n. Posts: 1,129member

    steven n. said:
    melgross said:
    spice-boy said:
    Apple as well as most (Western) mega corporations need to stop enabling oppressors by giving them the tools treat half of those counties population as property. We are all humans, we are born with rights and they should all be the same no matter your gender, race....etc. Unfortunately capitalist greed is spineless when standing up for what is really important. 
    Oh, please. You think socialist countries are devoid of graft and corruption? They are the worst.
    Care to back that assertion up with facts or data? I'm of the opinion human greed & corruption isn't limited to political dogma. 
    Venezuela? North Korea? The simple fact human greed and corruption isn't limited to political dogma is the exact reason placing all the power into a centrally controlled state always seems to end oppression and human atrocities. It becomes easy to justify sacrificing the sanctity of the individual to allow for a "greater good". Stalin and Chairman Mao happily killed 10's of millions in the quest for their politically correct society.
    You didn’t read carefully. I didn’t say cite me examples of corruption in socialist countries. I said back up the claim that corruption is worse in socialist states than any other historic form of human governance. Good luck with that. 

    FYI, North Korea is socialist in name only. It’s a dictatorship, totalitarian, etc. Far cry from Sweden and other democratic parliamentary countries practicing socialism. 
    Given every socialist country has gone down in corruption and flames is backing up the statement. We have run the experiment for over 100 years and the data is in. Socialism equates to humane atrocities and mass murder. P.S. don’t cite the Nordic countries as socialists because they are free markets with a larger social net. Not socialism.
    cgWerks
  • Reply 43 of 61
    melgross said:
    Apple definitely shouldn’t have this app.  Now that it’s public that they do, we can hope that they will swiftly remove it from the store. They should also prevent the ones that are already out from working.
    I sympathise with the reason for you saying this but I'm not sure that I agree. Apple already gets much criticism for its control, and hence "censorship", of the App Store deriving from its sole source status. Extending Apple's rules to reject apps providing services that are legal in the territory concerned but which would be illegal under another territory's rules feels to me to be fraught with danger.

    Extending its rules to reject apps that offend Tim Cook (or some committee within Apple) is something Apple is already accused of and it can only defend against this by showing that the rules do not contain arbitrary conditions - it's that tricky free speech thing again.

    I think this one is best left to the politicians and, as has already been said, trying gradually to influence the behaviour of the Saudi government.
  • Reply 44 of 61
    steven n. said:
    Given every socialist country has gone down in corruption and flames is backing up the statement. We have run the experiment for over 100 years and the data is in. Socialism equates to humane atrocities and mass murder. P.S. don’t cite the Nordic countries as socialists because they are free markets with a larger social net. Not socialism.
    I think you're probably right (though "every" is big word).

    We should, however, remember that "socialist" is a much misused term, usually by some autocratic clique trying to conceal its real nature. Certainly the Cold War era "Socialist" European governments managed to prove that their interpretation didn't work (and isn't there some Internet rule that says I should also mention "National Socialism" in 1930s/40s Germany).

    Just to prove that any term can be subverted, we also had the German Democratic Republic during the Cold War and, as well as claiming to be socialist, NK calls itself "the Democratic People's Republic of Korea". And I thought I knew what "democratic" meant!
  • Reply 45 of 61
    Looks like the Saudis have their shit figured out.

    We'll all continue to let them run loose.
  • Reply 46 of 61
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,314member
    mr lizard said:
    Apple chooses to participate in the Saudi Arabian market. They don’t have to. They could instead consider whether being in a market runs contrary to the values they so publicly espouse. Pulling out would hit their bottom line for sure, but that their choice to consider. 

    It’s up to them. 
    Exactly. If they really hold certain ideals as core principals (as they seem to be implying, even directly stating?), then they would apply them equally. If they don't, then they aren'y really core principals, but preferences at best, marketing opportunities at worst.

    steven n. said:
    Given every socialist country has gone down in corruption and flames is backing up the statement. We have run the experiment for over 100 years and the data is in. Socialism equates to humane atrocities and mass murder. P.S. don’t cite the Nordic countries as socialists because they are free markets with a larger social net. Not socialism.
    Politics, and political systems, are social sciences, just like economics. If they get the human-nature aspect wrong (in terms of checks and balances), then the system will fail. That's also, btw, the problem with the Capitalist systems we have as well... the laws that regulate them have been corrupted by money, such that we hardly have anything close to a free market. (ie: free doesn't mean 'anything goes' but a 'just' market).

    Also, good point about the Nordic countries, and if I'm understanding correctly, things aren't actually as good there as some think.
  • Reply 47 of 61
    steven n. said:
    While I find many (most?) of the restrictions Saudi places on its citizens (both men and women) oppressive, the US has 714,300% more simple burglaries, 5,600% higher opiate drug usage and 450% higher murder rate when compared to Saudi Arabia. NOTE: The "," is being used as a group separator and not a decimal point.
    Well… you just basically said "let's not rule out oppressing women, because maybe that causes fewer [unrelated bad things]".
  • Reply 48 of 61
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,982member
    StrangeDays said:
    melgross said:
    spice-boy said:
    Apple as well as most (Western) mega corporations need to stop enabling oppressors by giving them the tools treat half of those counties population as property. We are all humans, we are born with rights and they should all be the same no matter your gender, race....etc. Unfortunately capitalist greed is spineless when standing up for what is really important. 
    Oh, please. You think socialist countries are devoid of graft and corruption? They are the worst.
    Care to back that assertion up with facts or data? I'm of the opinion human greed & corruption isn't limited to political dogma. 

    spice-boy said:
    Apple as well as most (Western) mega corporations need to stop enabling oppressors by giving them the tools treat half of those counties population as property. We are all humans, we are born with rights and they should all be the same no matter your gender, race....etc. Unfortunately capitalist greed is spineless when standing up for what is really important. 
    I don’t have to back it up. If you know anything at all, you should know it yourself.
  • Reply 49 of 61
    steven n. said:
    melgross said:
    spice-boy said:
    Apple as well as most (Western) mega corporations need to stop enabling oppressors by giving them the tools treat half of those counties population as property. We are all humans, we are born with rights and they should all be the same no matter your gender, race....etc. Unfortunately capitalist greed is spineless when standing up for what is really important. 
    Oh, please. You think socialist countries are devoid of graft and corruption? They are the worst.
    Care to back that assertion up with facts or data? I'm of the opinion human greed & corruption isn't limited to political dogma. 
    Venezuela? North Korea? The simple fact human greed and corruption isn't limited to political dogma is the exact reason placing all the power into a centrally controlled state always seems to end oppression and human atrocities. It becomes easy to justify sacrificing the sanctity of the individual to allow for a "greater good". Stalin and Chairman Mao happily killed 10's of millions in the quest for their politically correct society.
    Your view would be valid if Venezuela, North Korea, the Soviet Union and China under Mao were in fact "socialist" countries, but they're not. Try any of the major modern European countries - especially Scandinavian - which are organized as socialist states and you'll see your argument fall apart.
  • Reply 50 of 61
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,982member

    steven n. said:
    melgross said:
    Apple definitely shouldn’t have this app.  Now that it’s public that they do, we can hope that they will swiftly remove it from the store. They should also prevent the ones that are already out from working.

    both Apple and Google need much stricter guidelines, and need to more rigorously police their stores. I know that Google’s attitude has always been to turn away from what’s in there as they were trying to increase the apps to meet Apple’s numbers. But that race is long over. Google now needs to do whatever it can to stop malicious apps of any kind. Apple needs to step its own wfforts up.
    Mel,

    I have always enjoyed your posts but I think this is more detailed than the simple "They should have the app". Given this app is little more than a wrapper on existing data on the Saudi government web site, is the logical conclusion Apple's Safari should filter out the specific pages allowing this tracking? Or is that against Net Neutrality? 

    While I find many (most?) of the restrictions Saudi places on its citizens (both men and women) oppressive, the US has 714,300% more simple burglaries, 5,600% higher opiate drug usage and 450% higher murder rate when compared to Saudi Arabia. NOTE: The "," is being used as a group separator and not a decimal point.

    Is it safety by the point of a gun? In my view, yes. In theirs? I don't know. Is it better to walk away from the table so we have 0 influence to slowly change the regime or do you stay at the table so you can at least carry on a conversation? Personally, I believe it is the second option.
    This has nothing to do with net neutrality. I don’t know where you even get that idea from. Also, where do you get those numbers from? I certainly wouldn’t trust anything an oppressive state like that gives out. In addition, that is a religious state, so they need to have people believe that the morality is greater, so their numbers are suspect. There are also just about 12 million Saudis. They also exaggerate their population so as to attempt to fool their enimies into thinking they are stronger militarily than they are. Additionally, violence against the vast number of foreign workers is actually legal there, and countries can’t protect citizens working there from execution for acts that elsewhere, are considered to be minor crimes, if they are considered to be crimes at all.

    what is hap pending here is that by allowing these Apple, both Apple and Google are tacitly acknowledging the right of Saudi laws and customs to be enforced around the world. Even allowing that in Saudi Arabia isn’t the type of thing they should be doing.

    why, do you disagree? You think it should be allowed?
    cgWerks
  • Reply 51 of 61
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,982member
    steven n. said:
    payeco said:
    steven n. said:

    There is a fine line everyone has to draw from tyrannically forcing their views of morality on different cultures and standing up for true oppressiveness.
    Surely you must agree though that are some fundamental rights that every human inherently has?
    Being raised in a western culture, it is easy for me to fall back on "life, liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" written by T. Jefferson (a slave owner). I personally, feel Saudi Arabia is weak on the "liberty" front and place an over emphasis on sanctity. This extends to all citizens from men and women though it impacts women more than men.

    However, if you extend "liberty" to include safe movement of society so long as you stay within sanctity of society (taking liberty as a theological meaning "being free from sin") then Saudi looks at Western culture as corrupt and weak on liberty.
    That’s a backwards way of looking at it.
  • Reply 52 of 61
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,982member

    steven n. said:
    lmac said:
    Apple does take moral positions on issues, such as LGBTQ rights, gun control, privacy protection, freedom of speech, so the argument that they shouldn't take a position on a particular issue is invalid. However, they also want to sell products in countries with what we might consider repressive regimes, so they do need to strike a balance. I would say this app is over the line, but if I was a Saudi woman trying to get out of the country, good advice would be to leave the phone behind.
    But they also move servers into counties like Russia and China (even handing control of the servers to local companies under government control) to abide by local laws. As I said, these are complex issues.
    And that’s unfortunate. It’s difficult to know what’s best on larger issues. But smaller ones, such as in individual app, the choice is easier. That’s particularly true if both Apple and Google agree on where the lines not to cross are. Of course, Chinese phone manufacturers don’t care at all, considering where they come from.

    but I feel it’s better to engage than not to engage. Is it better if Apple put their servers there, or withdraw from the country? They could withdraw,but then others will fill in. The net result in the countries is that those others would likely be even more compliant than Apple would be. And choice would be less than before. Google leaving China Sid absolutely nothing for Chinese censorship. In fact, it made it even easier for the government, because Baidu took over comp,Evelyn, and they are completely controlled by the government.
    command_f
  • Reply 53 of 61
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,982member
    An app designed to track you doesn’t work if you don’t carry a phone. This is just ridiculously paranoid.
    Well, this is complex. Before this app, women were still controlled heavily. Before phones too. Will they even be allowed to leave the house without a phone? Possibly not. They need to be driven where they go, and where they go must first be approved. Previously, they could “cheat” and slip away for a time, but not with this app.
  • Reply 54 of 61
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,982member
    spice-boy said:
    melgross said:
    spice-boy said:
    Apple as well as most (Western) mega corporations need to stop enabling oppressors by giving them the tools treat half of those counties population as property. We are all humans, we are born with rights and they should all be the same no matter your gender, race....etc. Unfortunately capitalist greed is spineless when standing up for what is really important. 
    Oh, please. You think socialist countries are devoid of graft and corruption? They are the worst.
    Oh, please have you ever lived in a "socialist" country? How about spent a week in one? Your comment most likely a flame illuminates how little you know.
    Do you know what a socialist country even is? I would bet not. You may think France is socialist, but it’s not. The only true socialist countries were, and are those ruled by communist parties, such as the USSR, N Korea, etc., or parties that are nationalistic such as we see in certain mid and South American countries.
    cgWerks
  • Reply 55 of 61
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,982member

    steven n. said:
    melgross said:
    spice-boy said:
    Apple as well as most (Western) mega corporations need to stop enabling oppressors by giving them the tools treat half of those counties population as property. We are all humans, we are born with rights and they should all be the same no matter your gender, race....etc. Unfortunately capitalist greed is spineless when standing up for what is really important. 
    Oh, please. You think socialist countries are devoid of graft and corruption? They are the worst.
    Care to back that assertion up with facts or data? I'm of the opinion human greed & corruption isn't limited to political dogma. 
    Venezuela? North Korea? The simple fact human greed and corruption isn't limited to political dogma is the exact reason placing all the power into a centrally controlled state always seems to end oppression and human atrocities. It becomes easy to justify sacrificing the sanctity of the individual to allow for a "greater good". Stalin and Chairman Mao happily killed 10's of millions in the quest for their politically correct society.
    "Venezuela", "North Korea" is "data"?

    What about "Philippines", "Italy"? (Neither is "socialist").
    It’s both, of course. While i hate to say it, often similar conditions exist. Poverty stricken countries tend to have rulers that are very corrupt. Often, these rulers take a socialist stance. Sometimes they don’t bother to hide it under that banner.
  • Reply 56 of 61
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,982member
    mr lizard said:
    Apple chooses to participate in the Saudi Arabian market. They don’t have to. They could instead consider whether being in a market runs contrary to the values they so publicly espouse. Pulling out would hit their bottom line for sure, but that their choice to consider. 

    It’s up to them. 
    Not helpful. You have to look at the overall picture. What would happen if Apple pulled out? Forget about what would happen to Apple for a moment. What happens in that country? Will people be better off, or worse off? Would Apple have more control over the situation than those that would replace it, or not? At worse, Apple leaving wouldn’t make any difference at all. At best, the government would have less control with Apple there than if, say, Huawei stepped in instead.
  • Reply 57 of 61
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,314member
    melgross said:
    Oh, please. You think socialist countries are devoid of graft and corruption? They are the worst.
    Care to back that assertion up with facts or data? I'm of the opinion human greed & corruption isn't limited to political dogma. 
    Human nature isn't limited to political dogma, for sure, but some systems provide better checks and balances, or allow fallen human nature a place to thrive.

    montrosemacs said:
    Try any of the major modern European countries - especially Scandinavian - which are organized as socialist states and you'll see your argument fall apart.
    They have more socialized programs and maybe fall a bit closer to that end of the political spectrum, but I don't think any of them are socialist.

    melgross said:
    .. What would happen if Apple pulled out? Forget about what would happen to Apple for a moment. What happens in that country? Will people be better off, or worse off? Would Apple have more control over the situation than those that would replace it, or not? At worse, Apple leaving wouldn’t make any difference at all. At best, the government would have less control with Apple there than if, say, Huawei stepped in instead.
    I don't think it is about Apple pulling out, but about Apple sticking to their ethical stance... which might prevent them from being let in. Maybe they can affect some slow change, maybe not. But, I'm not sure I agree with becoming corrupt so corrupt people will let you do business with them.
  • Reply 58 of 61
    This is what happens when u inject yourself into the political discourse and forget that you're still just a company that makes money; you get judged for both good and bad decisions. This is an example of a bad decision. Being the self-proclaimed world police on morale isn't so easy is it Apple and Google.
    cgWerks
  • Reply 59 of 61
    urahara said:
    I am a bit confused. 
    Does the app provides all those functions to cotrol women? Also the app can track if the passort was used? 

    ... If you read the article that was cited,..
    By this logic if I didin't read the article it wasn't cited.
  • Reply 60 of 61
    urahara said:

    It should be pointed out that since removing the app doesn’t affect the law, removing it will almost assuredly make traveling harder for women (since the app now presumably makes it way easier for men to approve travel compared to the old method). 

    I’d hope that Apple would actually talk with Saudi women and get their take on it, to determine what course of action has the least impact on human rights. 

    So it doesnt't restrict the movement. It gives the abality to allow easily for woman to travel. Nice! Actually, it's a good app.
    Well, you did admit in an early post you were confused.
    Thank you for reminding me what I have written before. So, what's your point?
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