While im sure there are some real defective keyboards, I doubt it’s above 1%.
Thats the mind of failure rate of anything. Screen, hinge, etc.
i bought the 2016 mbp. Maxed.
LOVE the keyboard. Can’t stand keys with unnessecary steep travel. The mbp keys are perfect. Not too much Tavel and not too little. Just right. They do need to stop here though. Any less travel is rough.
Also... ZERO issues with keys despite it being abused 8+ hours a day, every day for the past couple years.
Apple should keep refining the new keyboard. Don’t go backward to the old steep keys, just keep perfecting the new design.
You have to wonder the use cases of these reports. Apple is often the target of frivolous crap.
“I was using my MacBook Pro in the middle of a sandstorm and now it has issues with the keyboard. What the heck, Apple?”
I agree with this. I love my 2018 MBP 15". No issues with the keyboard. I'm also inclined to believe the defect numbers are far lower than people think. All people have to hear is the name "APPLE" and it sparks the haters. They use any news about Apple and elevate it so many levels higher than what it truly is. As soon as one person says they are having issues with their Apple product then the haters (especially on that awful Macrumors) who don't even own the product will crap on Apple and say "Tim Cook Needs to Go", blah blah blah. Then those haters create petitions against Apple and such. Then suddenly Dell, Lenovo, HP and MS Surface are problem free, because according to social media Apple sucks. Apple donated $1 million to disaster relief recently and the haters said Apple was being cheap and should've donated more, even thought Apple didn't have to donate at all. I'm sure those haters didn't donate anything. The bigger Apple has gotten, the worse the haters and critics have become, thanks to social media.
Apple is not going to continue selling computers that they know for a fact are defective. The company would have to pay for repairs during the 1 year warranty. That's not good business sense. I wish people would understand this logic, rather than jumping on the hater wagon.
While im sure there are some real defective keyboards, I doubt it’s above 1%.
Thats the mind of failure rate of anything. Screen, hinge, etc.
i bought the 2016 mbp. Maxed.
LOVE the keyboard. Can’t stand keys with unnessecary steep travel. The mbp keys are perfect. Not too much Tavel and not too little. Just right. They do need to stop here though. Any less travel is rough.
Also... ZERO issues with keys despite it being abused 8+ hours a day, every day for the past couple years.
Apple should keep refining the new keyboard. Don’t go backward to the old steep keys, just keep perfecting the new design.
You have to wonder the use cases of these reports. Apple is often the target of frivolous crap.
“I was using my MacBook Pro in the middle of a sandstorm and now it has issues with the keyboard. What the heck, Apple?”
I agree with this. I love my 2018 MBP 15". No issues with the keyboard. I'm also inclined to believe the defect numbers are far lower than people think. All people have to hear is the name "APPLE" and it sparks the haters. They use any news about Apple and elevate it so many levels higher than what it truly is. As soon as one person says they are having issues with their Apple product then the haters (especially on that awful Macrumors) who don't even own the product will crap on Apple and say "Tim Cook Needs to Go", blah blah blah. Then those haters create petitions against Apple and such. Then suddenly Dell, Lenovo, HP and MS Surface are problem free, because according to social media Apple sucks. Apple donated $1 million to disaster relief recently and the haters said Apple was being cheap and should've donated more, even thought Apple didn't have to donate at all. I'm sure those haters didn't donate anything. The bigger Apple has gotten, the worse the haters and critics have become, thanks to social media.
Apple is not going to continue selling computers that they know for a fact are defective. The company would have to pay for repairs during the 1 year warranty. That's not good business sense. I wish people would understand this logic, rather than jumping on the hater wagon.
Several differences - if I pay $400 for a cheap laptop and the keyboard goes out I understand that I bought a cheap laptop. A MacBook Pro is not a cheap laptop.
If I were a PC user, I could get. Dell. Or a Lenovo, or any number of other brands. As a Mac user, I have a choice of ...Apple. In the lad that was fine. Their laptops were more expensive, but they had the quality to match and I’m ok with paying for quality. I’m not ok paying for problems.
Futther more, the very design of the computer prevents easy repair of the keyboard, making the repair time consuming and costly. Fortunately, Apple has stepped up to the plate for now and is footing the bill, but we are all at their mercy with this. They could discontinue the program next week. I’d rather have a reliable device than a good warranty.
My daughter asked me about a new computer for college last night. She started off with my 2011 MacBook Air that is not up to the task. (Although the keyboard still works perfectly) sadly I don’t think I can recommend a MacBook for her. She’s going to treat it like a college student, and given the issues I’ve had with mine after treating it gently, I’m afraid hers wouldn’t last.
You can can call me a hater, but when I pay for quality, I expect quality.
While im sure there are some real defective keyboards, I doubt it’s above 1%.
Thats the mind of failure rate of anything. Screen, hinge, etc.
i bought the 2016 mbp. Maxed.
LOVE the keyboard. Can’t stand keys with unnessecary steep travel. The mbp keys are perfect. Not too much Tavel and not too little. Just right. They do need to stop here though. Any less travel is rough.
Also... ZERO issues with keys despite it being abused 8+ hours a day, every day for the past couple years.
Apple should keep refining the new keyboard. Don’t go backward to the old steep keys, just keep perfecting the new design.
You have to wonder the use cases of these reports. Apple is often the target of frivolous crap.
“I was using my MacBook Pro in the middle of a sandstorm and now it has issues with the keyboard. What the heck, Apple?”
I agree with this. I love my 2018 MBP 15". No issues with the keyboard. I'm also inclined to believe the defect numbers are far lower than people think. All people have to hear is the name "APPLE" and it sparks the haters. They use any news about Apple and elevate it so many levels higher than what it truly is. As soon as one person says they are having issues with their Apple product then the haters (especially on that awful Macrumors) who don't even own the product will crap on Apple and say "Tim Cook Needs to Go", blah blah blah. Then those haters create petitions against Apple and such. Then suddenly Dell, Lenovo, HP and MS Surface are problem free, because according to social media Apple sucks. Apple donated $1 million to disaster relief recently and the haters said Apple was being cheap and should've donated more, even thought Apple didn't have to donate at all. I'm sure those haters didn't donate anything. The bigger Apple has gotten, the worse the haters and critics have become, thanks to social media.
Apple is not going to continue selling computers that they know for a fact are defective. The company would have to pay for repairs during the 1 year warranty. That's not good business sense. I wish people would understand this logic, rather than jumping on the hater wagon.
Several differences - if I pay $400 for a cheap laptop and the keyboard goes out I understand that I bought a cheap laptop. A MacBook Pro is not a cheap laptop.
If I were a PC user, I could get. Dell. Or a Lenovo, or any number of other brands. As a Mac user, I have a choice of ...Apple. In the lad that was fine. Their laptops were more expensive, but they had the quality to match and I’m ok with paying for quality. I’m not ok paying for problems.
Futther more, the very design of the computer prevents easy repair of the keyboard, making the repair time consuming and costly. Fortunately, Apple has stepped up to the plate for now and is footing the bill, but we are all at their mercy with this. They could discontinue the program next week. I’d rather have a reliable device than a good warranty.
My daughter asked me about a new computer for college last night. She started off with my 2011 MacBook Air that is not up to the task. (Although the keyboard still works perfectly) sadly I don’t think I can recommend a MacBook for her. She’s going to treat it like a college student, and given the issues I’ve had with mine after treating it gently, I’m afraid hers wouldn’t last.
You can can call me a hater, but when I pay for quality, I expect quality.
" if I pay $400 for a cheap laptop and the keyboard goes out I understand that I bought a cheap laptop. A MacBook Pro is not a cheap laptop. "
You are equating price with perfection, and that makes no sense. And let's be real about it. It's just a keyboard problem. It's not a logic board problem, not an SSD problem, not a screen problem, which are things that would completely prevent anyone from using the computer at all. You're making it sound like Apple's entire laptop sucks left right and sideways. I'm not trying to downplay the keyboard, but you are saying that paying a premium for an Apple device means it needs to be 100% perfect, and that's just not logical with mass produced products. I don't know how long you've been a Mac user but I've been using Macs exclusively for the past 20 years and I can name a laundry list of issues with my Macs that Apple has had to publicly announce and fix, so this isn't something new in terms of Macs having problems. Social media of today is what exacerbates any small problems about Apple's products, as if there were never problems with their products in the past.
"You can can call me a hater, but when I pay for quality, I expect quality."
Well those are your words. I never called anyone here that, nor what I said earlier about haters had anything to do with what you just wrote.
Joanna Stern has cried wolf about so much nonsense over the years, from her time at pro-troll site Verge, to her silly complaints at WSJ. Won't take her as a single source on anything.
Here's Gruber politely saying Stern is full of shit over her recommendation to tape your Mac's webcam to protect it from hackers:
1. This is why Cook is increasing AppleCare to deal with keyboard problems
2. Looks like Apple has not infected their biggest seller MacBookAir with the problem keyboard.
3. I guess you will be cheering when DED does a hit piece on Joanna Stern. I hope her article is included in the WSJ when you sign up for Apple News+.
The 2018 MacBook Air keyboard is the same in every regard as the MacBook Pro.
I typed that Wrong. Thank you for catching it. If the new MBAs have problems then that is bad because Airs are very popular. Keep up the good work. This is great editorial.
While im sure there are some real defective keyboards, I doubt it’s above 1%.
Thats the mind of failure rate of anything. Screen, hinge, etc.
i bought the 2016 mbp. Maxed.
LOVE the keyboard. Can’t stand keys with unnessecary steep travel. The mbp keys are perfect. Not too much Tavel and not too little. Just right. They do need to stop here though. Any less travel is rough.
Also... ZERO issues with keys despite it being abused 8+ hours a day, every day for the past couple years.
Apple should keep refining the new keyboard. Don’t go backward to the old steep keys, just keep perfecting the new design.
You have to wonder the use cases of these reports. Apple is often the target of frivolous crap.
“I was using my MacBook Pro in the middle of a sandstorm and now it has issues with the keyboard. What the heck, Apple?”
I agree with this. I love my 2018 MBP 15". No issues with the keyboard. I'm also inclined to believe the defect numbers are far lower than people think. All people have to hear is the name "APPLE" and it sparks the haters. They use any news about Apple and elevate it so many levels higher than what it truly is. As soon as one person says they are having issues with their Apple product then the haters (especially on that awful Macrumors) who don't even own the product will crap on Apple and say "Tim Cook Needs to Go", blah blah blah. Then those haters create petitions against Apple and such. Then suddenly Dell, Lenovo, HP and MS Surface are problem free, because according to social media Apple sucks. Apple donated $1 million to disaster relief recently and the haters said Apple was being cheap and should've donated more, even thought Apple didn't have to donate at all. I'm sure those haters didn't donate anything. The bigger Apple has gotten, the worse the haters and critics have become, thanks to social media.
Apple is not going to continue selling computers that they know for a fact are defective. The company would have to pay for repairs during the 1 year warranty. That's not good business sense. I wish people would understand this logic, rather than jumping on the hater wagon.
Several differences - if I pay $400 for a cheap laptop and the keyboard goes out I understand that I bought a cheap laptop. A MacBook Pro is not a cheap laptop.
If I were a PC user, I could get. Dell. Or a Lenovo, or any number of other brands. As a Mac user, I have a choice of ...Apple. In the lad that was fine. Their laptops were more expensive, but they had the quality to match and I’m ok with paying for quality. I’m not ok paying for problems.
Futther more, the very design of the computer prevents easy repair of the keyboard, making the repair time consuming and costly. Fortunately, Apple has stepped up to the plate for now and is footing the bill, but we are all at their mercy with this. They could discontinue the program next week. I’d rather have a reliable device than a good warranty.
My daughter asked me about a new computer for college last night. She started off with my 2011 MacBook Air that is not up to the task. (Although the keyboard still works perfectly) sadly I don’t think I can recommend a MacBook for her. She’s going to treat it like a college student, and given the issues I’ve had with mine after treating it gently, I’m afraid hers wouldn’t last.
You can can call me a hater, but when I pay for quality, I expect quality.
I hope the come out with 16 inch MBP with old keyboard.
Joanna Stern has cried wolf about so much nonsense over the years, from her time at pro-troll site Verge, to her silly complaints at WSJ. Won't take her as a single source on anything.
Here's Gruber politely saying Stern is full of shit over her recommendation to tape your Mac's webcam to protect it from hackers:
As discussed in the April 2018 comment thread (linked in the first paragraph of this article), I think the statement in that paragraph that "AppleInsider found out in April 2018 the failure rates were double that of previous mechanisms" is based on a flawed statistical analysis. Put succinctly, there is a denominator problem in the figuring. With the wrong denominator, the term "failure rate" does not mean what you think it means. Details are in the April '18 thread. Mike W. disagreed with me then and I imagine will here, too. I do respect Mike W., but if there's a baseline statistical problem underlying an assertion, and then you layer on the confirmation bias of commenters who do actually have the keyboard problem making a beeline to an article featuring the issue, we end up with a perception of the scope of the issue that has a tenuous relationship with reality.
As discussed in the April 2018 comment thread (linked in the first paragraph of this article), I think the statement in that paragraph that "AppleInsider found out in April 2018 the failure rates were double that of previous mechanisms" is based on a flawed statistical analysis. Put succinctly, there is a denominator problem in the figuring. With the wrong denominator, the term "failure rate" does not mean what you think it means. Details are in the April '18 thread. Mike W. disagreed with me then and I imagine will here, too. I do respect Mike W., but if there's a baseline statistical problem underlying an assertion, and then you layer on the confirmation bias of commenters who do actually have the keyboard problem making a beeline to an article featuring the issue, we end up with a perception of the scope of the issue that has a tenuous relationship with reality.
Yeah, going on record for still disagreeing with your assessment, for the same reason.
[]...] You have to wonder the use cases of these reports. Apple is often the target of frivolous crap.
“I was using my MacBook Pro in the middle of a sandstorm and now it has issues with the keyboard. What the heck, Apple?”
Let's assume my use case is the issue and the failing keys are my fault ("I'm holding it wrong"). Why am I only experiencing failures since buying this machine? Why not the three previous models I owned before it? How and where I use my machine has not changed. My uses of it haven't changed. The only variable is the machine. If my use case is the problem, shouldn't it have evidenced with ALL my Macs, not just this one?
BTW, it's insulting as hell to refer to reports of problems as "frivolous crap." Try living with this for s few days and tell me my frustration is frivolous. I'm glad you don't have problems with yours, but it's a wild twist of logic to interpret that as meaning no one else does.
"If my use case is the problem, shouldn't it have evidenced with ALL my Macs, not just this one?" Statistically speaking, quite probably the answer to this question is "no." If you're dealing with a low probability issue, you might not ever experience the problem, even if the probability for it turning up was the same across all your macs. This is true, whether or not Apple did something wrong, or it's caused by you typing away in the Sahara.
If you have a six-sided die, you have a 16.6666 percent chance of rolling a "2," each and every time you roll the die, which also means you have an 83.3333 percent chance of not rolling a "2," each and every time you roll the die. Let's say that rolling a "2" results in someone smacking you in the head with a wet salmon. Nobody wants that, so it's good that the first three rolls of the die resulted in what was most likely (83.3333%) to happen each time: no "2" and no wet salmon in the head. Then you roll the fourth time, get the "2" and whack.
Nobody wants the wet salmon, and it does not fee like frivolous crap when it's upside your head. In the dry world of statistics, however, getting whacked by the salmon the fourth time has no bearing on the three previous rolls of the die. Getting thumped this time does not mean that the die in the three previous rolls was better those times.
In the case of the keyboards, Apple doesn't release their statistics but they do say that the problem has happened only in a small number of machines. The chances of having the problem are probably way lower than 16.6666%. It's a low probability issue. Nobody wants to be the living proof that it's not a no probability issue, but your individual experience with your current mac doesn't really extrapolate out to all of the same model, nor does it tell you anything about the relative performance of previous models.
The old keyboards got debris under them too but were high enough that the crumbs could be dislodged easily. There's nothing particularly wrong with having a low profile keyboard but it would be more reliable to have the mechanism that registers the key press difficult to affect mechanically. Just now the key has to reach a switch to activate it and if anything gets in the way, it's broken.
If there was a sensor in the hinge, it wouldn't need to reach a switch and the switch could be removed to give more travel. Another option would be to have pressure sensors at the base of the keys and they would detect the impact point of the press. Even if a key got jammed completely, the sensor would still detect the press and the sensitivity could be adjusted by the user.
I wouldn't mind having a solid-state option similar to the trackpad. I think it would be comfortable enough to type on if the keys were bouncy enough with a soft rubber base. It could be a completely flat surface recessed with a smart connector that allows you to connect any kind of input you want. Having the keyboard easily replaceable allows for switching language/layout and makes it easier to buy used laptops without worrying about keyboard reliability. Of course alternatives will take years to show up and more years to see if they have any problems.
The problem is Lack Of Key Travel which makes these keyboards the worst of any MacBook series. They are HORRIBLE to type on with insufficient tactile feedback.
My wife purchased a 2018 13" MBP with TouchBar in the fall and absolutely loves the keyboard. It has been 100% reliable. I have used it a bit and really love the feel, e.g., the fact that the keys remain stable and level when depressed. Granted, it takes a few minutes of typing to adjust to the shorter throw of the keys, but I am able to type faster and more reliably with the new keyboard.
Granted, there are people who've had issues with the butterfly keyboard. I'm not discounting their experiences, but the people I've asked in the wild about their Macs with butterfly keyboard have all said how much they like the computer and its keyboard.
I do not trust the opinions of Joanna Stern when it comes to Apple products. She does her best to paint them in their worst light, and frankly, I wonder if she's really experienced the problems with her keyboard or is just making it all up. We have no idea how she takes care of her MacBook either. If she's truly having issues with her keyboard, the proper approach is to get in touch with Apple Support and let them help her, not stand on her street corner along with people like Marco Arment and scream at the top of their lungs about the issue. In 30 years of owning Macs and many other Apple products, Apple has always made good on any issues we've had, which have been few and far between.
As discussed in the April 2018 comment thread (linked in the first paragraph of this article), I think the statement in that paragraph that "AppleInsider found out in April 2018 the failure rates were double that of previous mechanisms" is based on a flawed statistical analysis. Put succinctly, there is a denominator problem in the figuring. With the wrong denominator, the term "failure rate" does not mean what you think it means. Details are in the April '18 thread. Mike W. disagreed with me then and I imagine will here, too. I do respect Mike W., but if there's a baseline statistical problem underlying an assertion, and then you layer on the confirmation bias of commenters who do actually have the keyboard problem making a beeline to an article featuring the issue, we end up with a perception of the scope of the issue that has a tenuous relationship with reality.
Yeah, going on record for still disagreeing with your assessment, for the same reason.
So here’s the thing. I asked a systems engineer colleague to consider your analysis and my assessment of it, and asked the question, am I wrong? I’m always willing to consider the possibility that I’m wrong. She said I am not wrong, and went on to reiterate a number of the issues I raised previously about the methodology used in the April 2018 AI analysis. I’m sure that means squat to you, but I’d encourage you to get an offline second opinion yourself from a someone who does statistics for a living and see what you get.
When I bought my 2017 MacBook Pro, the reports of keyboard issues was enough to cause pause for thought on it.
I have the bad habit of eating lunch at my desk, and know that even my old 2012 machine got crumbs stuck which needed to be manually removed to correct the action.
In the end, I opted to buy the machine and fit a silicone keyboard cover immediately before doing anything else to try and keep as much stuff out as possible.
So, far this seems to have been working, the machine is now a year old and I have travelled widely with it and I continue to eat lunch in front of it, something I should probably work on.
Do I still fear the keyboard failing, not as much as I did. But, I figure if it happens when travelling for work, I’ll pick up a cheap keyboard for use until I get home. If it happens when I’m at hope, a TimeMachine restore to my spare MacMini (its why I bought it) and it can go for repair.
Ok, so I had to buy a keyboard protector to get by. But, $25 when I’m spending $5000 on a computer doesn’t seem like much of an outlay.
The problem is Lack Of Key Travel which makes these keyboards the worst of any MacBook series. They are HORRIBLE to type on with insufficient tactile feedback.
I like how Lack Of Key Travel is a proper noun now.
I seriously do not understand this argument at all. HOW exactly does a key need to travel further than it does on these keyboards in order to provide sufficient tactile feedback? I can easily tell I'm hitting every single key, feel the springiness, hear the sound, etc. It's not like typing on an iPad or something. Going back to working on someone's pre-2016 MBP for a bit, I found those keys to feel wobbly and weird having been using my 2018 for a few months. I absolutely love the new keyboards.
I honestly feel like the internet echo chamber is just latching on to these key phrases and repeated by people who don't even own these Macs.
As discussed in the April 2018 comment thread (linked in the first paragraph of this article), I think the statement in that paragraph that "AppleInsider found out in April 2018 the failure rates were double that of previous mechanisms" is based on a flawed statistical analysis. Put succinctly, there is a denominator problem in the figuring. With the wrong denominator, the term "failure rate" does not mean what you think it means. Details are in the April '18 thread. Mike W. disagreed with me then and I imagine will here, too. I do respect Mike W., but if there's a baseline statistical problem underlying an assertion, and then you layer on the confirmation bias of commenters who do actually have the keyboard problem making a beeline to an article featuring the issue, we end up with a perception of the scope of the issue that has a tenuous relationship with reality.
Yeah, going on record for still disagreeing with your assessment, for the same reason.
So here’s the thing. I asked a systems engineer colleague to consider your analysis and my assessment of it, and asked the question, am I wrong? I’m always willing to consider the possibility that I’m wrong. She said I am not wrong, and went on to reiterate a number of the issues I raised previously about the methodology used in the April 2018 AI analysis. I’m sure that means squat to you, but I’d encourage you to get an offline second opinion yourself from a someone who does statistics for a living and see what you get.
I did before the original piece went live, and again when we did it the second time.
And, we always take onboard complaints, and don't operate in a vacuum. We have a large volume of people that we rely on for "idiot checking."
The problem is Lack Of Key Travel which makes these keyboards the worst of any MacBook series. They are HORRIBLE to type on with insufficient tactile feedback.
I like how Lack Of Key Travel is a proper noun now.
I seriously do not understand this argument at all. HOW exactly does a key need to travel further than it does on these keyboards in order to provide sufficient tactile feedback? I can easily tell I'm hitting every single key, feel the springiness, hear the sound, etc. It's not like typing on an iPad or something. Going back to working on someone's pre-2016 MBP for a bit, I found those keys to feel wobbly and weird having been using my 2018 for a few months. I absolutely love the new keyboards.
I honestly feel like the internet echo chamber is just latching on to these key phrases and repeated by people who don't even own these Macs.
The vast majority of professional reviewers ( in magazines and online) are lukewarm or critical about the butterfly keyboards. Typical reviews say ‘once you get used to it, it’s not so bad’ or ‘the lack of key travel won’t be to everyone’s taste’ or ‘if you don’t need to type anything longer than a 2 page memo, these keyboards are fine’. Hardly glowing endorsements.
Whereas the earlier MacBook keyboards were universally praised for their responsiveness, reliability and tactile feedback.
The chorus of complaints about the butterfly keyboards is not some internet ‘echo chamber’ - it is real and justified.
Side issue with the new keyboards, not related to reliability:
I finally figured out why my typing accuracy is so much poorer on my Touch Bar Mac than my wife's Retina: the size and proximity of the keys.
I'm a lousy typist. My fingers fall kinda in the vicinity of a key, but don't seem to find the center very often. On the Retina there's more space between keys, so the risk of accidentally hitting an adjacent key as well as or instead of the intended one is lower. With so little space between the keys on the Touch Bar, I frequently catch the edge of adjacent keys.
That kinda sucks, because the low, wide keys on the newer machine look much cooler!
I just read Joanna Stern’s article in the Wall Street Journal. She is absolutely right, Apple has got to stop prioritising thin-ness over functionally. Or, in her own words (typed on her butterfly keyboard)...
Apple has had 3 attempts to get the Butterfly keyboards right, and failed. Not only are they unreliable and prone to jamming, they are horrible to type on - there is barely any key travel.
Apple sacrificed their wonderful old keyboard design - which was the best in the business - to save a millimetre in thickness! What a joke.
Comments
Apple donated $1 million to disaster relief recently and the haters said Apple was being cheap and should've donated more, even thought Apple didn't have to donate at all. I'm sure those haters didn't donate anything. The bigger Apple has gotten, the worse the haters and critics have become, thanks to social media.
Apple is not going to continue selling computers that they know for a fact are defective. The company would have to pay for repairs during the 1 year warranty. That's not good business sense. I wish people would understand this logic, rather than jumping on the hater wagon.
If I were a PC user, I could get. Dell. Or a Lenovo, or any number of other brands. As a Mac user, I have a choice of ...Apple. In the lad that was fine. Their laptops were more expensive, but they had the quality to match and I’m ok with paying for quality. I’m not ok paying for problems.
Futther more, the very design of the computer prevents easy repair of the keyboard, making the repair time consuming and costly. Fortunately, Apple has stepped up to the plate for now and is footing the bill, but we are all at their mercy with this. They could discontinue the program next week. I’d rather have a reliable device than a good warranty.
My daughter asked me about a new computer for college last night. She started off with my 2011 MacBook Air that is not up to the task. (Although the keyboard still works perfectly) sadly I don’t think I can recommend a MacBook for her. She’s going to treat it like a college student, and given the issues I’ve had with mine after treating it gently, I’m afraid hers wouldn’t last.
You can can call me a hater, but when I pay for quality, I expect quality.
You are equating price with perfection, and that makes no sense. And let's be real about it. It's just a keyboard problem. It's not a logic board problem, not an SSD problem, not a screen problem, which are things that would completely prevent anyone from using the computer at all. You're making it sound like Apple's entire laptop sucks left right and sideways. I'm not trying to downplay the keyboard, but you are saying that paying a premium for an Apple device means it needs to be 100% perfect, and that's just not logical with mass produced products. I don't know how long you've been a Mac user but I've been using Macs exclusively for the past 20 years and I can name a laundry list of issues with my Macs that Apple has had to publicly announce and fix, so this isn't something new in terms of Macs having problems. Social media of today is what exacerbates any small problems about Apple's products, as if there were never problems with their products in the past.
"You can can call me a hater, but when I pay for quality, I expect quality."
Well those are your words. I never called anyone here that, nor what I said earlier about haters had anything to do with what you just wrote.
If you have a six-sided die, you have a 16.6666 percent chance of rolling a "2," each and every time you roll the die, which also means you have an 83.3333 percent chance of not rolling a "2," each and every time you roll the die. Let's say that rolling a "2" results in someone smacking you in the head with a wet salmon. Nobody wants that, so it's good that the first three rolls of the die resulted in what was most likely (83.3333%) to happen each time: no "2" and no wet salmon in the head. Then you roll the fourth time, get the "2" and whack.
Nobody wants the wet salmon, and it does not fee like frivolous crap when it's upside your head. In the dry world of statistics, however, getting whacked by the salmon the fourth time has no bearing on the three previous rolls of the die. Getting thumped this time does not mean that the die in the three previous rolls was better those times.
In the case of the keyboards, Apple doesn't release their statistics but they do say that the problem has happened only in a small number of machines. The chances of having the problem are probably way lower than 16.6666%. It's a low probability issue. Nobody wants to be the living proof that it's not a no probability issue, but your individual experience with your current mac doesn't really extrapolate out to all of the same model, nor does it tell you anything about the relative performance of previous models.
If there was a sensor in the hinge, it wouldn't need to reach a switch and the switch could be removed to give more travel. Another option would be to have pressure sensors at the base of the keys and they would detect the impact point of the press. Even if a key got jammed completely, the sensor would still detect the press and the sensitivity could be adjusted by the user.
I wouldn't mind having a solid-state option similar to the trackpad. I think it would be comfortable enough to type on if the keys were bouncy enough with a soft rubber base. It could be a completely flat surface recessed with a smart connector that allows you to connect any kind of input you want. Having the keyboard easily replaceable allows for switching language/layout and makes it easier to buy used laptops without worrying about keyboard reliability. Of course alternatives will take years to show up and more years to see if they have any problems.
Granted, there are people who've had issues with the butterfly keyboard. I'm not discounting their experiences, but the people I've asked in the wild about their Macs with butterfly keyboard have all said how much they like the computer and its keyboard.
I do not trust the opinions of Joanna Stern when it comes to Apple products. She does her best to paint them in their worst light, and frankly, I wonder if she's really experienced the problems with her keyboard or is just making it all up. We have no idea how she takes care of her MacBook either. If she's truly having issues with her keyboard, the proper approach is to get in touch with Apple Support and let them help her, not stand on her street corner along with people like Marco Arment and scream at the top of their lungs about the issue. In 30 years of owning Macs and many other Apple products, Apple has always made good on any issues we've had, which have been few and far between.
I seriously do not understand this argument at all. HOW exactly does a key need to travel further than it does on these keyboards in order to provide sufficient tactile feedback? I can easily tell I'm hitting every single key, feel the springiness, hear the sound, etc. It's not like typing on an iPad or something. Going back to working on someone's pre-2016 MBP for a bit, I found those keys to feel wobbly and weird having been using my 2018 for a few months. I absolutely love the new keyboards.
I honestly feel like the internet echo chamber is just latching on to these key phrases and repeated by people who don't even own these Macs.
And, we always take onboard complaints, and don't operate in a vacuum. We have a large volume of people that we rely on for "idiot checking."
Whereas the earlier MacBook keyboards were universally praised for their responsiveness, reliability and tactile feedback.
The chorus of complaints about the butterfly keyboards is not some internet ‘echo chamber’ - it is real and justified.
I finally figured out why my typing accuracy is so much poorer on my Touch Bar Mac than my wife's Retina: the size and proximity of the keys.
I'm a lousy typist. My fingers fall kinda in the vicinity of a key, but don't seem to find the center very often. On the Retina there's more space between keys, so the risk of accidentally hitting an adjacent key as well as or instead of the intended one is lower. With so little space between the keys on the Touch Bar, I frequently catch the edge of adjacent keys.
That kinda sucks, because the low, wide keys on the newer machine look much cooler!
’Itt’s ttimee tto sttop prriorrittizing tthinneess oveerr usabilitty. Itt’s ttimee tto seetttthee butttteerrfly keeyboarrd frreeee. Leett itt fly...farr, farr away.’
Apple has had 3 attempts to get the Butterfly keyboards right, and failed. Not only are they unreliable and prone to jamming, they are horrible to type on - there is barely any key travel.
Apple sacrificed their wonderful old keyboard design - which was the best in the business - to save a millimetre in thickness! What a joke.