The TextBlade keyboard is superb, but you'll have to be patient

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 1615
    revenantrevenant Posts: 621member
    my wife went in on this when it first came out.

    not a damn thing but will ship soon, date pushed back and back for years. may not be vapourware, but where is ours?

    arkorott
  • Reply 22 of 1615
    colinngcolinng Posts: 116member

    prokip said:
    OK,  Chris Taylor (1 Post ??), TokkiTheGreat (1 post ??), Gmadden (2 posts), Dabigkahuna (1 post ??), Mcmetzger (1 post ??), Idea2go_twitter (1post ??),

    I'm in !!.

    Where do I sign up ?

    But if you guys (and gals ?) are feeding me a line, a curse on the *&%&&*....  OK
    Hey Prokip, I've got a few more posts, but I'm a loud-mouth compared to the others you've mentioned. They say a lot more on the WayTools forum, which, is the most enjoyable forum I've ever been on. It's still the internet, so there will be trolls, angry people, self-proclaimed geniuses, and flame-baiting trolls too. But we don't feed the trolls so they go away.

    The WayTools forum is the first time I've actually enjoyed the community. Open-minded people with interesting ideas. People who are generous with their time and experience. If you enjoy portable computing, or just computing or creating things, check out the forum! Of course we're all incredibly enthused about our TextBlades, and for good reason. If I had to choose between upgrading my iPhone, or having a TextBlade, I'd choose TextBlade *every* time. 

    I use mine 8+ hours every work day, and it gets a lot of use on non-workdays too! Also the only keyboard I'd take camping or on a roadtrip. 
    edited April 2019 gmadden
  • Reply 23 of 1615
    colinngcolinng Posts: 116member
    mims said:
    I am extremely disappointed in this article - primarily because it doesn't provide an honest look at how WayTools has handled its pre-orders. I saw an article in January 2015 about the TextBlade, and I ordered it. At the time, the release date was end of February 2015. For the next couple years, WayTools would quietly change the shipping date by a month. Then, they started changing it by a quarter. Each time, it looked like launch was imminent. Even their blog posts are about getting the TextBlade into everyone's hands. Sure, there are TREGs. I was one of the first to order, and I have hardware beta testing experience. The day they announced TREG, I signed up. Instead, they seem to choose outspoken people on their forums in hopes to string the rest of us along. That's not a slight against the TREG people. Most seem to really enjoy the product. What it does show is a company that wants to string along a purchase base. So, they are going with the Tesla model? It would have been helpful to tell those ordering the device that they are going to wait 4+ years. Also, they are not emailing their customers. I have received exactly one email about my order - the one confirming my order and that my credit card had been charged. The only other times I hear from them is when I send an email asking about an order. According to FCC rules, they are required to contact customers when delays exceed 30 days to confirm that they customers still wants the product. They have not done that. They do, however, allow you to get your money back at any time. Eventually I did (after 4 years and 3 months) WayTools is not a company that you want to do business with. If they eventually ship the product, buy it from Amazon. AppleInsider, this is your opportunity to be a voice for "millions?" who are being scammed. I have filed a complaint with the FCC, and I have heard rumblings that there is talk of a class action lawsuit.
    I'm sorry that's how you feel about your experience. I do think they are honest - you got your money back right away, right? So it's not a scam, and I think implying that they are scammers is unwarranted and unfair. 

    New technology is hard to predict. Even years after, Teslas still ship with defects. The difference is the approach. One company decides to ship anyway and fix it if you complain. The other company decides they want to hold back because it's more important that they get it right. 

    It's a bigger change to go to a new keyboard than to drive a new car. Almost every production car works the same. Steering wheel, accelerator and brake pedals, location of turn signals and windshield washer. Nothing has really changed in decades. 

    But with TextBlade, they are definitely pushing the boundaries, and in a good way. I love my TextBlade. I suspect the bulk of TextBlade buyers will love it too, but there's an adjustment to make, and WayTools is trying to make it so 1) the payoff for making the adjustment is as high as possible, and 2) the barriers to adjusting are as low as possible. It takes work, and they are diligent. 

    I hope that after they ship, you'll order one and try it out for yourself. 
    dabigkahunagmadden
  • Reply 24 of 1615
    mims said:
    I am extremely disappointed in this article - primarily because it doesn't provide an honest look at how WayTools has handled its pre-orders.

    I have hardware beta testing experience. The day they announced TREG, I signed up. Instead, they seem to choose outspoken people on their forums in hopes to string the rest of us along.


    Also, they are not emailing their customers.
    First, it does provide an honest look. It doesn't give a long detailed history of the delays, but saying it has taken 4 years (so far) does provide the basic facts about not shipping. If you think about it, there is a whole bunch of stuff that only gives the broad picture. It simply isn't a long article.

    As for TREG membership, we have people with beta testing experience. We have people who have unique typing situations. WayTools, of course, already had it's own people testing, which is probably what led to so many unexpected delays. Those of us in Treg would report an issue and, especially if we got a log of it to send in, Waytools typically fixed it pretty quick. I think the same thing happened before Treg. Even when they knew there were some problems their people discovered, they had found that generally they could fix them quickly, thus we had short extensions for shipping. But new problems kept coming up. I've certainly learned a lot about how individual differences in how people type are more extensive than people would usually think - which shows up when you have multiple characters on a key. Anyway, Waytools has said that they want a variety of people and use cases in Treg. Not just people with some especially qualifying credentials. That variety is needed!

    Oh, they didn't just choose outspoken people on their forums. Some never posted at all before being chosen, or at least very rarely. Some had been quite critical of WayTools (I have a habit of reading old posts of new Treg members so I know this is true). All kinds of people.

    But anything criticizing the lack of communication is usually a legit complaint.

    Oh, and since you wanted more info about delays there are places one can go which cover it in detail. Of course, some places are simply dedicated to attacking WayTools, often in rather silly ways. Or people can go to my subreddit where I cover the good and the bad. I'm normally the only person posting, which is fine since I simply created it to give the realities of what has been happening, though I'll be glad to answer questions, etc.

    However, my subreddit is NOT for those who want to attack the company. Plenty of other places for that. Mine is for real information, not rants. I ban people who come to post yet more attacks.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/TextbladeRealities/

    gmaddencolinng
  • Reply 25 of 1615
    gmaddengmadden Posts: 26member
    I’m one of those who didn’t publicly post on the WayTools forums until being chosen. 
    Typing on it has been such a joy that I want others have their blocks removed so I do what I can to help build the community that Colinng spoke of. 
    colinngMasteroftheobvious
  • Reply 26 of 1615
    gmaddengmadden Posts: 26member
    @AppleInsider I sure hope this is only part one of your WayTools series. 
    colinngalexonlineMasteroftheobvioussmiffy31
  • Reply 27 of 1615
    After initially ordering in 2016, I've been part of the TextBlade TREG for approximately a year now.

    Originally I never thought that the keyboard would be preferred over traditional keyboards, but personally I'm obsessed about the idea of mobile computing so for me the plan was to not have to use other keyboards anyway. And given the possibilites of configuration and the short distances to move your fingers I see no reason to not desire this as the only keyboard to use.

    Some have expressed that coding might be tricky. First off I would say that special characters isn't a big deal, all standard characters are available and you can add others if you want to that wouldn't be as easily accessible on other keyboards. What might be a bit trickier though could be some shortcuts used in IDEs or editors, but also here you can use the configuration options to make the most commonly used shortcuts from your favorite IDE/editor really simple.

    I did read beforehand that it would take time to get used to and sure I can agree that it takes time to get good touch typing going (especially if you have your own style already, which I did). But I never felt that there was a problem to just start typing if you were a bit calm. I just want to emphasize that even if there are "paradigm shift"-like technology involved it is at the same time not that strange feeling to start using it. 
    dabigkahunagmaddencolinng
  • Reply 28 of 1615
    Hi,

    This is being typed on a Textblade that I have been using as part of the TREG for over a year now with minimal issues, other than learning the layout and the massive functionality.  This is not just a keyboard, it is a computerized input device.  When you master the layers and the macro function etc. it makes the unit indispensable: I certainly find I miss the functionality when I do not have it to hand.

    With my job I can be using a laptop, IPad and two or three terminals.  Historically each had a keyboard which made for a terrible ergonomic setup.  With the blades Jump function I use one keyboard for all, easy and comfortable. 

    Out on site it is a breeze to use with my phone or IPad, much more comfortable and functional than a case keyboard.

    Is it worth the £100 I paid?  Well I have ordered one form my son and a second for me, so yes.

    Do I have confidence in Waytools?  Yes.  I looked into Mark and the business and have spent several hours on the phone from the UK to the States with Mark discussing the product.  As an Engineer I respect and understand the issues the Waytools team have and are having with the development of the product, bringing disruptive technology to the market needs to be done in the right way or it will fail and I believe they are doing it right despite the frustration we have all had with the process.
    edited April 2019 gmaddencolinngMasteroftheobvious
  • Reply 29 of 1615
    Ordered the thing over 4 years ago, I am not in TREG, although have signed up for it years ago. Keyboard might be brilliant, however the company's communication is sub-par: status updates have both decreased in meaningful content and frequency, many unhappy (non TREG) users were banned from the forums, and have not got their queries addressed. I always wondered how successful would this be internationally, as it seems that the multitouch interface of the keys is trying to figure out what letter you wanted to write - I assume in English only?
    leeeh2arkorottalexonline
  • Reply 30 of 1615
    aknabiaknabi Posts: 211member
    DAalseth said:
    I've seen lots of "revolutionary" keyboards come and go. They all share one thing in common. Reviewers love them. A small subset of people use them and love them. Most people go back to the regular keyboard. If I ever get a chance to try this I might. But I sure as heck ain't shelling out ~$120 based on a video.
    However, a perhaps greater reason for the delay is down to technical issues such as Bluetooth. We've been shown circuit diagrams and we've had Bluetooth explained to us at length, but it boils down to how this standard is far more complex and far more unreliable than it appears.
    Boy that's the truth. Every rev of BT promises to be more stable and reliable. And every rev is still mediocre at best. I finally gave up on the Magic Keyboard and Magic Mouse that came with my iMac and replaced them with a wired pair that hasn't missed a beat. My BT headphones and speaker work okay, but for keyboards and mice, I just have had no luck.
    Wait... you "I finally gave up on the Magic Keyboard and Magic Mouse that came with my iMac and replaced them with a wired pair"...

    Both the Magic Keyboard and Mouse work wired... so... ummmm. WTF? 
  • Reply 31 of 1615
    Ordered the thing over 4 years ago, I am not in TREG, although have signed up for it years ago. Keyboard might be brilliant, however the company's communication is sub-par: status updates have both decreased in meaningful content and frequency, many unhappy (non TREG) users were banned from the forums, and have not got their queries addressed. I always wondered how successful would this be internationally, as it seems that the multitouch interface of the keys is trying to figure out what letter you wanted to write - I assume in English only?
    I cannot say with certainty in what way the "AI"-generated code helps but I can say that I have no problems typing in Swedish.
    edited April 2019 gmaddencolinngStill_hopefulMasteroftheobvious
  • Reply 32 of 1615
    Ordered the thing over 4 years ago, I am not in TREG, although have signed up for it years ago. Keyboard might be brilliant, however the company's communication is sub-par: status updates have both decreased in meaningful content and frequency, many unhappy (non TREG) users were banned from the forums, and have not got their queries addressed. I always wondered how successful would this be internationally, as it seems that the multitouch interface of the keys is trying to figure out what letter you wanted to write - I assume in English only?
  • Reply 33 of 1615
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,868administrator
    A number of us with TREG units have not been active commenters on this site, but you can see our consistent activity on the WayTools forums. Said another way: these are just fake accounts created by one person to shill a product.

    The WayTools forum is at forumDOTwaytoolsDOTcom
    They are not.
  • Reply 34 of 1615
    This article doesn't cover the whole story. It's only a simple glance of about the last few months.

    First of all, bluetooth issue is only the latest excuse by Waytools, something they've been milking for close a year now, to justify their never-ending delays. Previously, there were changes to the butterfly switch mechanism, software changes, paint changes on the keys, molding changes, firmware changes, changes to accommodate new Bluetooth versions, new IOS version, etc. etc -- all of which came after the fact. And oftentimes, they don't even provide excuses (or updates), they just delay with no excuses. Mind you, to figure out anything you have to go and dig through the forums, since they never bother to email you. Even their so-called realtime shipping calendar would say you'll get it soon, only to find out nope, it's delayed yet again. It's become a running joke. People have to remind Waytools to change that calendar after the promised dates have passed.

    My girlfriend and I ordered their six-pack set (over a $1,000) in March of 2015 for her students because she fell for their marketing tactic: Keys for Kids, in which Waytools promised to donate $1 million worth of their keyboards to schools. A promised they failed to keep, never mentioning it again. Later in 2015, they went on a ridiculous tirade accusing any people asking questions about delays as being saboteurs working for imaginary competitors, force cancelling their orders and either silencing their account or shutting them down all together -- a practice they still practice today.

    Waytools always chooses a date (or range of dates) to provide the next update, yet miss that date or provide nothing at all, until another promise of another update (repeat and rinse for four years). It's impossible to tell what latest problem they're tackling, what they've done or just what the heck they're doing in their office. You're completely in the dark. Whatever updates you do get, it's mostly about improvements or feature creep nobody asked for, padded with heaps of chest-pounding that tells you absolutely nothing. Though they have a rant section, It's apparently only there to weed out people they don't like -- those who dare to complain or ask tough questions will end up being shadow-banned or having your entire order cancelled. And their usual response is some passive-aggressive post like: "We were forced to cancel your order, because this order is causing you stress. And we don't want to stress you. Goodbye."

    In fairness, heir product may well be great, revolutionary even (their words, not mine). But that's only half of the story. When you buy a product, you get a company as well. While the product may be good, the company half is truly a pain to deal with. I love tech gadgets, but there is no tech amazing enough to deal with Waytools' pompous, arrogant talking down to, or the seemingly endless semantic games, their endless comparison of themselves as Apple, Tesla and Samsung, and other such BS.

    After four years of force cancelling orders and shutting down accounts of anyone who dared to ask tough questions (usually regarding delivery), the forums are now left with only handful of the aligned who continually heap praises on Waytools and the wonders of the Textblade. Check the latest in their forums and you'll see they're mostly TREG users who talk about how they spent their day with a Textblade, how beautiful their experience was, with pictures and videos, written by repeat posters who step over each other to heap even more praises about the Textblade and Waytools. It reads like a bizarre cult blog -- typed on a Textblade, fueled by Waytools.

    It wasn't like that in the beginning. Early on, there were many gadgeteers and keyboard fanatics who provided lively discussions about interesting topics, but they all got fed up or were force-cancelled by Waytools. So, if you're into one-off tech gadgets which you'll probably toss out after the novelty wears off, and you're okay with waiting possibly for years with a good chance it may never ship. put in an order.

    Otherwise, I recommend you stay away from Waytools. No product is worth this kind of company.
    arkorottalexonline
  • Reply 35 of 1615
    colinngcolinng Posts: 116member
    1. First of all, bluetooth issue is only the latest excuse by Waytools, something they've been milking for close a year now, to justify their never-ending delays. 


    2. My girlfriend and I ordered their six-pack set (over a $1,000) in March of 2015 for her students because she fell for their marketing tactic: Keys for Kids, in which Waytools promised to donate $1 million worth of their keyboards to schools. A promised they failed to keep, never mentioning it again.


    3. Later in 2015, they went on a ridiculous tirade accusing any people asking questions about delays as being saboteurs working for imaginary competitors, force cancelling their orders and either silencing their account or shutting them down all together -- a practice they still practice today.


    4. Though they have a rant section, It's apparently only there to weed out people they don't like -- those who dare to complain or ask tough questions will end up being shadow-banned or having your entire order cancelled. And their usual response is some passive-aggressive post like: "We were forced to cancel your order, because this order is causing you stress. And we don't want to stress you. Goodbye."


    5. In fairness, heir product may well be great, revolutionary even (their words, not mine). But that's only half of the story. When you buy a product, you get a company as well. While the product may be good, the company half is truly a pain to deal with. I love tech gadgets, but there is no tech amazing enough to deal with Waytools' pompous, arrogant talking down to, or the seemingly endless semantic games, their endless comparison of themselves as Apple, Tesla and Samsung, and other such BS.


    6. After four years of force cancelling orders and shutting down accounts of anyone who dared to ask tough questions (usually regarding delivery), the forums are now left with only handful of the aligned who continually heap praises on Waytools and the wonders of the Textblade. Check the latest in their forums and you'll see they're mostly TREG users who talk about how they spent their day with a Textblade, how beautiful their experience was, with pictures and videos, written by repeat posters who step over each other to heap even more praises about the Textblade and Waytools. It reads like a bizarre cult blog -- typed on a Textblade, fueled by Waytools.

    7. It wasn't like that in the beginning. Early on, there were many gadgeteers and keyboard fanatics who provided lively discussions about interesting topics, but they all got fed up or were force-cancelled by Waytools. So, if you're into one-off tech gadgets which you'll probably toss out after the novelty wears off, and you're okay with waiting possibly for years with a good chance it may never ship. put in an order.


    Otherwise, I recommend you stay away from Waytools. No product is worth this kind of company.

    Wow! You’ve somehow managed to invent a negative reason for everything that has happened! 

    Because the mobile AppleInsider forum site doesn’t let me break up your quotes by section, I’ve numbered your points and will respond by number. 

    1. Reliable Bluetooth is hard. See everyone else’s comments about getting keyboards and headphones to work reliably. The only headphone that I’ve heard “just works” is AirPods, and so it’s no surprise it took the world by storm. Touted as “Apple’s best product” even though they also make the iPhone that you pair it with. The most humorous anecdote about Bluetooth that sums it up for me, is John Gruber’s comment - the Bluetooth slogan should be: it’ll work great next year. 

    2. They haven’t gone to General Release yet - something they are honest about. Keys for Kids would logically come after General Release - there’s no point shipping incomplete products to kids. 

    3. I’ve never seen them silencing an account. I’ve been on the forum at least 2 years, maybe 3. If you sound like the $99 is causing you more stress than it should, they will refund you immediately, and give you a week to exercise the option to reinstate your order without losing your place in line. If someone is distressed about the money and doesn’t reinstate their order, then I’d say WayTools did the right thing in refunding them! 

    They don’t silence posts. Some people on the forums go on such a ridiculous tirade, that any mature adult will recognize that’s just BMW (bitching, moaning, whining). If you were to BMW amongst your friends who were having fun, they’d point it out to you and probably you’d snap out of it. Or you’d flush with embarrassment. I think that happens when someone gets called out on the forums for BMW. As it should. We are adults, and we should be called out on bad behaviour. 

    There’s nothing that makes the internet a cesspit more than the racist BS posted by “Anonymous Coward” on SlashDot. Done in real life, in public, there’d be stares of disapproval and others crossing to the other side of the street to avoid you and show you that such viewpoints are not acceptable. It doesn’t seem to work on the internet. 

    4. I’ve never seen a shadow ban, so kindly link to one as proof. I have seen people not staying on topic, and go off on a serious tangent. It’s seriously not fun to read those posts - and just like the racist posts on SlashDot, these posts even get upvotes?!?!? Where is the ban feauture you allude to? 

    As for refunds, see point #3. I feel most of the refunds are amply justified, though others may disagree. 

    5. WayTools isn’t pompous or arrogant. What I find is a startling lack of understanding of technology on the internet. So if they have to use an analogy for “new technology that is hard to develop and takes a long time to get right” then I think a comparison to Tesla is warranted. People “get” car development takes a long time. For some reason they don’t realize software development is far more difficult. 4 wheels and a motor is hard, but one that doesn’t drive you into parked fire trucks and concrete barriers, is at least 100 times harder. 

    6. You’re overlooking the many people who read the forums and don’t say anything. People who wait patiently. They comment when they feel they can add. Unsurprisingly, TREGgers have a lot to say about a keyboard on a keyboard forum, especially one that has become their favourite keyboard. It’s not a cult board. There are lots of participants from many walks of life, and when the topic is right, they say something. I didn’t even know there were pilots on the forum, until they commented on Boeing - in a post that was examining how Boeing had trouble with software. 

    7. TextBlade is not one-off tech. Honestly I wish people would stop posting one-off tech in the WayTools forums, but hey, keyboard fanatics post there all the time. 
    gmadden
  • Reply 36 of 1615
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,913member
    > This is the best keyboard we have ever used.

    That’s some statement. That should be the lead of the story. Expand, please. 
    gmadden
  • Reply 37 of 1615
    colinng said:

    3. I’ve never seen them silencing an account. I’ve been on the forum at least 2 years, maybe 3. If you sound like the $99 is causing you more stress than it should, they will refund you immediately, and give you a week to exercise the option to reinstate your order without losing your place in line. If someone is distressed about the money and doesn’t reinstate their order, then I’d say WayTools did the right thing in refunding them! 

    Unsurprisingly, Waytools seems to choose only vocal fans to be testers.  I do believe the product is great so It is not surprising that you are still a fan now that you are one of the chosen.  Arguing with true fans accomplishes little so I won't bother with most of my initial reaction to your post.

    But I do want to correct your error on #3.  Waytools does indeed silence accounts, even those who are moderate and respectful in their criticism.  They put my account "temporarily on hold as a precautionary measure until your post can be reviewed" almost a year ago after years of forum participation This was back when Bluetooth was the excuse not to ship.  They have refused to even respond to my multiple queries asking why they disabled my account.  Only Waytools would know how many people have been banned, because they don't announce it, you just don't see them post anymore.  I didn't bother to create a new account so I could participate again, but I have created an account here just so I can set the record straight.

    Here is what I posted that got me banned,  I can only assume my questions struck a nerve.  Perhaps the natural implication was too close to the truth:

    Really? I don't know of any other company who would deny customers eager to purchase a product just because it doesn't inter-operate perfectly with some portion of devices which have their own unique bugs. Reporting bugs to the outside responsible parties and even working in the background to help them to fix it or to implement work-arounds makes sense. But delaying release for this is just insane. Even if the product in question is made by Apple, the company you always compare yourself too. And these delays are completely unfair to the customers who want to use your product with the rest of the devices.

    Is it easier to deny your customers access to your product for such frivolous reasons when you already have their money?

    Speaking of money, do you really already have hundreds of thousands of orders and 10s of millions of dollars? Or were you just being optimistic about fast order ramp-up when you mentioned 1000x more users?

    I haven't asked for a refund because I want my keyboard, not my money back.  And I was lucky not to have a refund forced on me as they have done to so many others when they expressed such frustration.

    The practice of charging up front for pre-orders of a product, which was claimed to be just waiting for volume production, and then delaying shipment for 4 years, constantly claiming it isn't quite good enough yet (in spite of upgradeable firmware and nothing but praise from testers) justifies asking some uncomfortable questions.  But asking the questions doesn't justify banning the asker.

    I'm a developer of firmware and embedded software with over 40 years of keyboard use.  I frequently use portable keyboards.  I volunteered to test this product 3 years ago and followed up with email.  I would be probably be a better tester than most, but since I'm not active on the forums defending the company's unapologetic delays in pursuit of absolute perfection at the expense of customer respect, I'm sure I'll never be sent a test unit.
    alexonline
  • Reply 38 of 1615
    i've ordered, was in the second round after an article posted elsewhere, still waiting.  

    been banned from the WayTools Forum because they apparently didn't like my comments, none of which (to my mind) seemed out of line.  i've asked for some detail as to why they've banned me, no response.

    i got unbanned (which shows that it does happen), made one post, which again they didn't like because it was critical, and again got banned.  when i asked why, no response (and i continue to ask why).  let it be known that my criticism came on the section of the forum that was entitled "rants".  apparently one can't rant in the rants area.

    WT has been known to refund people without them asking for a refund, in what appears to be either a power play or because they fear the ramifications of not refunding the money, i hope it's the latter.  but they make people who don't want the refund, reorder the keyboard in what seems to be somewhat demeaning manner.  posting on the forum things like, if you want to reorder put another order in by the end of the week, or things of that nature.  (by the way, WT if you are reading this I don't want a refund).  and yes it got to the point where people who were being critical of the company would post things like i just did to make sure they weren't refunded.

    if a company lives and dies by how they treat their customer base -- i'm not sure how it's going to go for them.  i know i don't think i've been treated fairly, and there are many out there who think the same as i do.  do i still desire to be more portable, yes.  do i think the TB will fill that need, yes.  because all i needed was a very small portable keyboard.  will i use the product when/if it comes, yes.  will it be the revolutionary keyboard of the future, maybe.  will i give a big thumbs up to the company that produced it, nope.
    arkorottalexonline
  • Reply 39 of 1615
    prokip said:

    But if you guys (and gals ?) are feeding me a line, a curse on the *&%&&*....  OK
    You might want to check Reddit.

    Or MacRumours for that matter. 

    R


    alexonline
  • Reply 40 of 1615
    mcmetzger said:


    There's no getting around the fact that the first people in were lied to. 
    Yes we were indeed lied to. 

    R
    alexonline
This discussion has been closed.