Editorial: Could Apple's lock on premium luxury be eclipsed by an era of good-enough gear?...

124678

Comments

  • Reply 61 of 148
    mike54mike54 Posts: 347member
    I've already jumped ship. With a Dell Windows 10 laptop, I can get a 17in matte screen, easy user replaceable ram and storage, dedicated GPU, and better reliability, at less than half the price of an Apple 15in laptop. I still prefer macOS, but Apple has cared less for macOS, which is clearly obvious.

    Apple is releasing new products, with old designs and a mixture of old and new parts so they can keep their costs down but keep the prices high and even increasing them. Hell, they are even still selling the mouse with the charging plug on the bottom! Apple is not making the best products they can anymore. The focus has shifted to increasing shareholder returns and growing profitability, and they see services and subscriptions as the future.
    Latkoavon b7chemengin
  • Reply 62 of 148
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 7,318member
    Johan42 said:
    Diminishing returns is here. Apple’s planned obsolescence as well. Who will prevail? The customer who has no sense will.
    Right. How long have people like you been saying Apple’s failure is just around the corner? Any day now? Next week? Next month? Next year? You’ve been waiting for forty years now. Don’t you have a clue by now?
    radarthekatpscooter63brucemcwatto_cobra
  • Reply 63 of 148
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 21,117member
    bb-15 said:
    Imagine a company looking through your mail, tracking where you go & what you buy to send advertising to you. In the past that would have been intolerable.   
    But that is what Google does. It mines data on its apps, ties it to the user and uses that data to send individualized ads to the customer. 
    This is how Google makes most of its money. 

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/020515/business-google.asp ;

    https://bgr.com/2016/02/11/why-facebook-and-google-mine-your-data-and-why-theres-nothing-you-can-do-to-stop-it/ ;

    I minimize that kind of data tracking as much as possible & part of how I do that is to carefully use Apple products to reduce data tracking for ads.
    In addition, Apple has top notch customer service & devices which have OS support/updates for many years.  
    The Apple ecosystem works well across its devices. 
    Apple products by & large are simple to use & yet are very powerful. 

    For all those things which benefit me, I’m willing to pay a reasonable amount more. 

     
    When the premise starts out wrong it puts everything after that in question.
    Google doesn't "read" your mail for anything remotely connected to advertising. 
    muthuk_vanalingamchemengin
  • Reply 64 of 148
    Some people are too naive to understand that. Some are also fine by giving away their personal info if they get “free” stuff. To them, saving money is worth more than protecting their privacy. They don’t value it. They get upset just the same when they find out their info was sold, but they won’t leave Android.
    "Saving money" and "protecting...privacy" are not mutually exclusive.  More damage has been done over the last few years to people's personal privacy through breaches at retail stores and credit ratings companies than from their use of whatever isn't an Apple operating system.  Using a competing platform doesn't make you naive or mean that you're automatically "giving away" your personal info.
    edited April 21
  • Reply 65 of 148
    Cesar Battistini MazieroCesar Battistini Maziero Posts: 167unconfirmed, member
    Johan42 said:
    Diminishing returns is here. Apple’s planned obsolescence as well. Who will prevail? The customer who has no sense will.
    You’re high. Apple devices have the longest lifespan in the business — both in official support terms (iOS), and in real world useful lifespan. My primary desktop is a 2011 iMac. I have an iphone 4s that was used as a primary device by a family member until a year or two ago and now is a backup device. What other brand has the same support and lifespan longevity? 
    My Lenovo Thinkpad T60P laptop is over 12 years old and runs like it was new -- but with a modern OS and I'm thinking swapping its main harddrive for an SSD.  How does Apple have the "longest lifespan" ?
    Yeah like a windows computer runs perfectly with 4gb of ram and 256 mb of video memory. Sorry but no. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 66 of 148
    burnside said:
    When I buy an Apple product, I know it will work. I've bought products running Windows and various flavors of Android that never, ever worked quite right. They'd be close. Close enough that I'd keep tinkering, installing/reinstalling, thinking we'd find a point of stability, only to end up with hours and $$ wasted. I've never had that happen with an Apple product (well, post-OS9). That's a BFD for people who need to get things done, not learn how to troubleshoot.
    Hear, hear.  Those who pooh-pooh the superior qualilty of Apple products or the integration among their product line most certainly doesn't have enough information from using those products to participate in a conversation about which is better or best.  "Good enough" is a point of view...and it's most certainly skewed by anyone who has used Apple products for any length of time.
  • Reply 67 of 148
    henrybay said:
    The main factor now driving Apple profitability is the software (iOS, MacOS), not the hardware. 

    Apple’s hardware is being destroyed by a ‘design extremism’ that prioritises thinness and minimalism over functionality. This results in faulty keyboards, lack of ports and the removal of much loved features Ike Touch ID and MagSafe cables. 

    Jony Ives has much to answer for in this respect. But Tim Cook won’t challenge him because he is basically a supply chain management guy, and feels out of his depth when it comes to design aesthetics and functionality. 

    If Steve Jobs we’re alive today he would tell Ives, ‘I don’t care how elegantly thin the new MacBook is, if the keyboard doesn’t work it’s trash! And stop removing stuff from our products that people really like - like ports, and TouchID. We’re not creating art here, we’re trying to make products that folks love to use and can rely on! If this means they have to be a little thicker - make them thicker, God dam it!’ 

    If Jobs was in a particularly bad mood, he might add, ‘Look Jony, you’ve had a good run here at Apple, but all this adulation and success has gone to your head. You’ve become a design extremist, and our products are suffering for it. If you don’t prioritise functionality over thinness it’s time for you to move on.’ 
    Yeah.  This. ;)
  • Reply 68 of 148
    jcs2305jcs2305 Posts: 829member
    Johan42 said:
    Diminishing returns is here. Apple’s planned obsolescence as well. Who will prevail? The customer who has no sense will.
    You’re high. Apple devices have the longest lifespan in the business — both in official support terms (iOS), and in real world useful lifespan. My primary desktop is a 2011 iMac. I have an iphone 4s that was used as a primary device by a family member until a year or two ago and now is a backup device. What other brand has the same support and lifespan longevity? 
    My Lenovo Thinkpad T60P laptop is over 12 years old and runs like it was new -- but with a modern OS and I'm thinking swapping its main harddrive for an SSD.  How does Apple have the "longest lifespan" ?
    I thought the OP said Apple devices, not laptops specifically when referring to the longest lifespan in the business. Most of the planned obsolescence claims I have seen refer to iPhones and not Apple,s other hardware. You have to admit more folks are using older Mac laptops than they are 12 year old Thinkpads. 

    So yes a non Mac can have a long service life but it isn’t as likely in my opinion. My two macs at home are both late 2011 ( Mini & Air ) and they both ares still running strong. This is possible, but not typical for windows machines of the same age in my experience. Just my 2c ... 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 69 of 148
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 1,807member
    mike54 said:
    I've already jumped ship. With a Dell Windows 10 laptop, I can get a 17in matte screen, easy user replaceable ram and storage, dedicated GPU, and better reliability, at less than half the price of an Apple 15in laptop. I still prefer macOS, but Apple has cared less for macOS, which is clearly obvious.

    Apple is releasing new products, with old designs and a mixture of old and new parts so they can keep their costs down but keep the prices high and even increasing them. Hell, they are even still selling the mouse with the charging plug on the bottom! Apple is not making the best products they can anymore. The focus has shifted to increasing shareholder returns and growing profitability, and they see services and subscriptions as the future.
    Yes Win 10 doesn't suck, but its importance continually declines because of the move to the web and mobile.  We will see if Apple does come out with a SuperOs some day/some year running on their A-series Architecture.
  • Reply 70 of 148
    danvmdanvm Posts: 791member
    jcs2305 said:
    Johan42 said:
    Diminishing returns is here. Apple’s planned obsolescence as well. Who will prevail? The customer who has no sense will.
    You’re high. Apple devices have the longest lifespan in the business — both in official support terms (iOS), and in real world useful lifespan. My primary desktop is a 2011 iMac. I have an iphone 4s that was used as a primary device by a family member until a year or two ago and now is a backup device. What other brand has the same support and lifespan longevity? 
    My Lenovo Thinkpad T60P laptop is over 12 years old and runs like it was new -- but with a modern OS and I'm thinking swapping its main harddrive for an SSD.  How does Apple have the "longest lifespan" ?
    I thought the OP said Apple devices, not laptops specifically when referring to the longest lifespan in the business. Most of the planned obsolescence claims I have seen refer to iPhones and not Apple,s other hardware. You have to admit more folks are using older Mac laptops than they are 12 year old Thinkpads. 

    So yes a non Mac can have a long service life but it isn’t as likely in my opinion. My two macs at home are both late 2011 ( Mini & Air ) and they both ares still running strong. This is possible, but not typical for windows machines of the same age in my experience. Just my 2c ... 
    I don't think you or someone can admit (or deny) that more people use older Mac compared to Thinkpads, unless you have a link with those stats.  
    edited April 21
  • Reply 71 of 148
    danvmdanvm Posts: 791member
    k2kw said:
    mike54 said:
    I've already jumped ship. With a Dell Windows 10 laptop, I can get a 17in matte screen, easy user replaceable ram and storage, dedicated GPU, and better reliability, at less than half the price of an Apple 15in laptop. I still prefer macOS, but Apple has cared less for macOS, which is clearly obvious.

    Apple is releasing new products, with old designs and a mixture of old and new parts so they can keep their costs down but keep the prices high and even increasing them. Hell, they are even still selling the mouse with the charging plug on the bottom! Apple is not making the best products they can anymore. The focus has shifted to increasing shareholder returns and growing profitability, and they see services and subscriptions as the future.
    Yes Win 10 doesn't suck, but its importance continually declines because of the move to the web and mobile.  We will see if Apple does come out with a SuperOs some day/some year running on their A-series Architecture.
    If that's the case, then we can said that macOS has not importance at all in the industry, considering it's low marketshare, is that right?
    edited April 21
  • Reply 72 of 148
    gatorguy said:
    bb-15 said:
    Imagine a company looking through your mail, tracking where you go & what you buy to send advertising to you. In the past that would have been intolerable.   
    But that is what Google does. It mines data on its apps, ties it to the user and uses that data to send individualized ads to the customer. 
    This is how Google makes most of its money. 

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/020515/business-google.asp ;

    https://bgr.com/2016/02/11/why-facebook-and-google-mine-your-data-and-why-theres-nothing-you-can-do-to-stop-it/ ;

    I minimize that kind of data tracking as much as possible & part of how I do that is to carefully use Apple products to reduce data tracking for ads.
    In addition, Apple has top notch customer service & devices which have OS support/updates for many years.  
    The Apple ecosystem works well across its devices. 
    Apple products by & large are simple to use & yet are very powerful. 

    For all those things which benefit me, I’m willing to pay a reasonable amount more. 

     
    When the premise starts out wrong it puts everything after that in question.
    Google doesn't "read" your mail for anything remotely connected to advertising. 

    How disingenuous of you.

    You meant Google no longer scans email for targeted advertising. You know, since they have stopped that practice. 
    firelockpscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 73 of 148
    leighrleighr Posts: 184member
    There’s always a market for “cheap and nasty” but not necessarily much profit in it. The market that Samsung seems to be going for, though, is “expensive and nasty”. It will be mind boggling if people who shell out over $2,000 for a Fold, will simply say “oh well, it’s Samsung, what do you expect” when their Fold dies after a couple of days. Even if the device was not without its obvious manufacturing flaws, the look of it is simply horrid. The notch size and positioning simply defies logic; it’s a dodgy, budget looking device, sold for a premium price. So while the Fold is obviously destined for failure, the media will continue to support Samsung (largely due to their advertising spend) and #Foldgate will be swept under the carpet. The fandroids will continue to buy expensive and nasty Samsung’s, simply because they’re not Apple. And the cycle will continue...
    edited April 21 watto_cobra
  • Reply 74 of 148
    LatkoLatko Posts: 398member
    In the beginning Android was crap.  It’s good enough now, to give Android devices a look.  I remain concerned about the security of the Google Play Store, but I’m not a kid that downloads a bunch of junk. So, it’s less important...

    The iPhone and IPad don’t have me in an “ecosystem lock” but if I owned an Apple Watch the convenience factor would be compelling.  I don’t like watches... 

    I’m watching what Microsoft does with Android/Linux.  If they get better integration than what’s offered on Apple, that might move the needle...
    Good luck. You wont be missed.

    Indeed, “Get milked or perish” 

    The Cookette mantra for customer retention

    edited April 21 macplusplus
  • Reply 75 of 148
    jdwjdw Posts: 786member

    Could Apple's lock on premium luxury be eclipsed by an era of good-enough gear?


    Expanding on the above question is this second question: 

    Is your existing Apple gear "good enough" to you because you would be losing functionality by purchasing the newest Apple gear?

    To which I answer: YES

    My mid-2015 top-end 15" MBP is "good enough" because to purchase a newer MBP would mean lose of "Pro" features important to me.  SD Card slot, USB-A ports, MagSafe, a good keyboard, extension power cord in the box, the list goes on.  

    So Apple is not merely in danger of good enough gear from rivals, but it is also in danger of losing sales to the Mac faithful if they don't start remembering the practical day-to-day needs of The Rest of Us.
    Latko80s_Apple_GuyGeorgeBMacelijahg
  • Reply 76 of 148
    Apple is losing in China to Chinese brands. Huawei charges as much as an iPhone for some of it's phone and still people are buying it instead of iPhone. Other Chinese brands are not behind too. Go to tmall.com or jd.com and see how Apple products cost much less than many Chinese brands, be it Laptop , Desktop or iPhone.
    chemengin
  • Reply 77 of 148
    macplusplusmacplusplus Posts: 1,907member
    elijahg said:
    elijahg said:

    danvm said:
    Johan42 said:
    Diminishing returns is here. Apple’s planned obsolescence as well. Who will prevail? The customer who has no sense will.
    You’re high. Apple devices have the longest lifespan in the business — both in official support terms (iOS), and in real world useful lifespan. My primary desktop is a 2011 iMac. I have an iphone 4s that was used as a primary device by a family member until a year or two ago and now is a backup device. What other brand has the same support and lifespan longevity? 
    My Lenovo Thinkpad T60P laptop is over 12 years old and runs like it was new -- but with a modern OS and I'm thinking swapping its main harddrive for an SSD.  How does Apple have the "longest lifespan" ?
    Same here buddy. My MacBook is from late 2008. It is 11 years old, running smoothly , and it does so looking 5 times better than your machine.
    The difference is that the good looking machine is running an old OS X 10.11 while the ugly one is capable of running the latest version of Windows 10.  Following the original post about longest lifespan, the ugly one is ahead considering it's running a modern OS.  Still, both devices are to old for modern applications.  
    Nonsense. The capabilities of a machine depends on the CPU. You cannot override CPU’s physical limitations with the OS, no matter how modern it is. Windows support of earlier machines is because those were crap in terms of security. This a just a burden on Microsoft, not progress.
    Not quite. At a cost of speed, "physical limitations" of CPUs apart from speed can oft be "overridden" with software emulation. If the CPU is 64 bit, and it's running Windows 10, it can run pretty much all modern software, albeit much more slowly than a modern CPU. Oh, and it gets security updates. 

    To increase your signal to noise ratio please go to ark.intel.com, find Intel Core Duo under Legacy Intel Processors, compare it to today’s 9th generation Intel. Then please tell us what capabilities can you implement via software emulation to make it run as 9th gen Intel !...

    A Core Duo will always run as Core Duo regardless of the OS or whatever software emulation you implement. In most cases a legacy machine will run faster under its native OS, XP Vista or whatever, not to mention also the legacy driver support. Windows 10 forums are full of people screaming because of the lack of legacy driver support and reverting back to their legacy OS for that reason. Yes you get a modern OS and most probably better security but you lose the fingerprint reader or the sound card...

    To decrease your ignorance level, please go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulator .

    You'll note I said 64-bit. Core Duos are not 64 bit. But in any case, it is possible for a 32-bit CPU to do 64-bit calculations, but they are much slower as they're done in software. Like I said, if an older CPU doesn't support an extension of x64 that a modern piece of software uses, the missing extension is emulated in software. It is much slower, as I said, but it allows modern software to run on older CPUs. If this wasn't the case, it would mean software would always have to be written for the lowest target CPU that the developer thinks may be used. Otherwise the software would crash as soon as an unsupported instruction was encountered. No developer would specifically target a 9th gen i9, as it would only be supported on a tiny subset of systems. 

    Driver support is a different beast entirely, that's up to the manufacturer of the peripheral on a PC. If a manufacturer keeps the peripheral updated, even a 15 year old peripheral will run just fine in Win 10. Apple supplies all the drivers for Macs and could keep old drivers updated to ensure they worked on newer OSs, so your point is moot; the same issue would not pertain to Macs.

    And to prove my point, the Church-Turing thesis corroborates exactly what I said above.
    What is the point of “emulation” in this? We are not talking about the emulation of a few missing instructions among processors of a couple of generations old, we are talking about decade old architectural differences. You cannot emulate a higher architecture in a decade-old lower architecture, that is the opposite. Theoretically you can as an undergraduate homework, or you can emulate this and that, but the industry has yet to see a “i9 emulator” for Core Duos.
    radarthekat
  • Reply 78 of 148

    There were a few threads where no one bothered to respond to Johan42's posts. Those were good threads.

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 79 of 148
    danvm said:
    I suppose Google cannot be as bad as you said, considering Apple agreed to accept billions of dollars from Google to make their search engine default in iOS and macOS devices, right?
    and how difficult is it to change the search engine and homepage in MacOS? It is easy.
    I rarely do searching on my phone so there really is little history to pilfer.
    90% of Google domains, 100% of FB and Twitter are all blocked at my home firewall. It is amazing how fast pages load with all that crud disabled.

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 80 of 148
    IreneWIreneW Posts: 173member
    elijahg said:
    elijahg said:

    danvm said:
    Johan42 said:
    Diminishing returns is here. Apple’s planned obsolescence as well. Who will prevail? The customer who has no sense will.
    You’re high. Apple devices have the longest lifespan in the business — both in official support terms (iOS), and in real world useful lifespan. My primary desktop is a 2011 iMac. I have an iphone 4s that was used as a primary device by a family member until a year or two ago and now is a backup device. What other brand has the same support and lifespan longevity? 
    My Lenovo Thinkpad T60P laptop is over 12 years old and runs like it was new -- but with a modern OS and I'm thinking swapping its main harddrive for an SSD.  How does Apple have the "longest lifespan" ?
    Same here buddy. My MacBook is from late 2008. It is 11 years old, running smoothly , and it does so looking 5 times better than your machine.
    The difference is that the good looking machine is running an old OS X 10.11 while the ugly one is capable of running the latest version of Windows 10.  Following the original post about longest lifespan, the ugly one is ahead considering it's running a modern OS.  Still, both devices are to old for modern applications.  
    Nonsense. The capabilities of a machine depends on the CPU. You cannot override CPU’s physical limitations with the OS, no matter how modern it is. Windows support of earlier machines is because those were crap in terms of security. This a just a burden on Microsoft, not progress.
    Not quite. At a cost of speed, "physical limitations" of CPUs apart from speed can oft be "overridden" with software emulation. If the CPU is 64 bit, and it's running Windows 10, it can run pretty much all modern software, albeit much more slowly than a modern CPU. Oh, and it gets security updates. 

    To increase your signal to noise ratio please go to ark.intel.com, find Intel Core Duo under Legacy Intel Processors, compare it to today’s 9th generation Intel. Then please tell us what capabilities can you implement via software emulation to make it run as 9th gen Intel !...

    A Core Duo will always run as Core Duo regardless of the OS or whatever software emulation you implement. In most cases a legacy machine will run faster under its native OS, XP Vista or whatever, not to mention also the legacy driver support. Windows 10 forums are full of people screaming because of the lack of legacy driver support and reverting back to their legacy OS for that reason. Yes you get a modern OS and most probably better security but you lose the fingerprint reader or the sound card...

    To decrease your ignorance level, please go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulator .

    You'll note I said 64-bit. Core Duos are not 64 bit. But in any case, it is possible for a 32-bit CPU to do 64-bit calculations, but they are much slower as they're done in software. Like I said, if an older CPU doesn't support an extension of x64 that a modern piece of software uses, the missing extension is emulated in software. It is much slower, as I said, but it allows modern software to run on older CPUs. If this wasn't the case, it would mean software would always have to be written for the lowest target CPU that the developer thinks may be used. Otherwise the software would crash as soon as an unsupported instruction was encountered. No developer would specifically target a 9th gen i9, as it would only be supported on a tiny subset of systems. 

    Driver support is a different beast entirely, that's up to the manufacturer of the peripheral on a PC. If a manufacturer keeps the peripheral updated, even a 15 year old peripheral will run just fine in Win 10. Apple supplies all the drivers for Macs and could keep old drivers updated to ensure they worked on newer OSs, so your point is moot; the same issue would not pertain to Macs.

    And to prove my point, the Church-Turing thesis corroborates exactly what I said above.
    What is the point of “emulation” in this? We are not talking about the emulation of a few missing instructions among processors of a couple of generations old, we are talking about decade old architectural differences. You cannot emulate a higher architecture in a decade-old lower architecture, that is the opposite. Theoretically you can as an undergraduate homework, or you can emulate this and that, but the industry has yet to see a “i9 emulator” for Core Duos.
    But, what is your point? Windows 10 runs on these old processors, obviously not as fast and smooth as on a modern CPU, but it works and get regular updates.
    elijahg
Sign In or Register to comment.