What a world to twisted systems where wear and tear is no longer valid...
Hey, it’s a bullshit lawsuit, but it’s definitely a factory defect and not wear and tear.
How do you know it’s a defect? Circuit boards are not supposed to be subjected to flex/stress. Of course with consumer devices that’s not completely unavoidable. People do drop, hit or sit on their phones.
The question is, how many impacts should a device be able to withstand before something eventually fails? Is there a standard somewhere you’re aware of? How will these lawyers prove it’s a defect? Simple. They can’t. Just because a certain issue happens with 1 in n devices doesn’t make it a defect. They’re going to need a very large sample size in order to get this figure and prove that this problem will eventually occur in a significant number of devices.
I saw an article from one of those iPhone/Mac repair shops (you know, the people who think they’re smarter than engineers, yet their job is nothing more than a technician several Pay grades below a real engineer) who claimed this issue was an ”epidemic”.
The flaw with their thinking is that they only see the devices that have this flaw, not the millions who don’t. So while they might have a steady stream of customers with this issue (who likely Googled their problem and found their shop through an ad to fix it) it doesn’t mean all devices have this issue.
I had a chat with a technician who thought a certain engine in a certain vehicle was garbage. His reasoning? Every car that came into the dealer with the check engine light on and a specific fault code required major engine work costing thousands of dollars. He was absolutely correct on the fault code in that these engines did require expensive work if they had this fault. The problem was he didn’t know how many vehicles never have this problem - he’s only counting the ones he sees in the shop and thinks that 100% of them eventually have this issue.
Makes me me wonder how someone can be reasonably intelligent enough to repair devices (which requires someone who can think logically) yet they can’t understand their customers don’t represent all users.
When I see reports like this, I don’t always think it is the problem of the manufacturer, in this case Apple, but rather it is American justice system.
This is is no longer about consumer rights, it is all about blood sucking lawyers and lobbyists.
Hot coffee can’t be hot. Knife need a warning label about it will cut you open. It makes me wonder if gun manufacturers put warning on guns about it can kill people. But I guess it doesn’t matter.
Sorry for bad English.
Let me guess: you didn't spend $1K on an iPhone 7 and have this problem happen to you?
iPhone 7 wasn’t a grand, but nice try with the narrative. Started at $649 USD.
I understand what happened to 6, but 7? Makes me worried about my 6s too since they are the same size. I’m glad it’s been working fine other than the battery, which I’ve replaced myself last year.
Personally I think there are a million other things to “worry” about before this, but hey, whatever you want to keep you up at nite.
I understand what happened to 6, but 7? Makes me worried about 6s too, since iPhone 7 is the same size.
I had iPhone 6 before. It's known for fast battery draining. And on iPhone 5, the screen went black or berserk when the phone gets hot. iPhone 4 is the best problem-free phone I ever had. Finger cross on my current iPhone X.
Actually no, neither the 5 or 6 is known for those things.
Ironic you mention the 4, since it was indeed known for another complete non-issue.
Wow. Funny. I just finished making an appointment with Apple Store 10 min ago for my son's iPhone 7's microphone issue. Believe it or not, this is my third time doing this. When I first got his iPhone 7, it was brand new. The microphone stopped working after a few months. Apple gave him a new one and last for only a year. Then Apple gave him yet another new one. This one also last just over a year again. Now I am going back to see them tomorrow. Same problem, every time. Microphone just stopped working out of the blue. This is iPhone 7 specifically.
What a world to twisted systems where wear and tear is no longer valid...
Hey, it’s a bullshit lawsuit, but it’s definitely a factory defect and not wear and tear.
How do you know it’s a defect? Circuit boards are not supposed to be subjected to flex/stress. Of course with consumer devices that’s not completely unavoidable. People do drop, hit or sit on their phones.
The question is, how many impacts should a device be able to withstand before something eventually fails? Is there a standard somewhere you’re aware of? How will these lawyers prove it’s a defect? Simple. They can’t. Just because a certain issue happens with 1 in n devices doesn’t make it a defect. They’re going to need a very large sample size in order to get this figure and prove that this problem will eventually occur in a significant number of devices.
I saw an article from one of those iPhone/Mac repair shops (you know, the people who think they’re smarter than engineers, yet their job is nothing more than a technician several Pay grades below a real engineer) who claimed this issue was an ”epidemic”.
The flaw with their thinking is that they only see the devices that have this flaw, not the millions who don’t. So while they might have a steady stream of customers with this issue (who likely Googled their problem and found their shop through an ad to fix it) it doesn’t mean all devices have this issue.
I had a chat with a technician who thought a certain engine in a certain vehicle was garbage. His reasoning? Every car that came into the dealer with the check engine light on and a specific fault code required major engine work costing thousands of dollars. He was absolutely correct on the fault code in that these engines did require expensive work if they had this fault. The problem was he didn’t know how many vehicles never have this problem - he’s only counting the ones he sees in the shop and thinks that 100% of them eventually have this issue.
Makes me me wonder how someone can be reasonably intelligent enough to repair devices (which requires someone who can think logically) yet they can’t understand their customers don’t represent all users.
It’s not an intelligence problem. It is a common human logic challenge. We tend to fall for logical fallacies in various way because we are not science machines. It takes a much wider scope of experience and more critical thinking to work around logical fallacies.
These repair people may indeed see a valid trend. Their regular exposure to it makes it seem much more notable. If they aren’t considering selection bias, they’ll report it as “all devices eventually experience this flaw.” In some cases, they’re not wrong.
Their data is still useful and shouldn’t be blown off as mere stupidity, ignorance, or arrogance. They’re seeing something you’re not. To them, you might seem oblivious. If we don’t have the numbers of actual products in the hands of customers, and the number of repairs/replacements done by the manufacturer, we cannot compare those numbers to third-party repair reports to come to a certain conclusion, and manufacturers depend on that to maintain their claims of “misrepresentation” when repair people declare a problem is endemic. Manufacturers do lie.
I understand what happened to 6, but 7? Makes me worried about my 6s too since they are the same size. I’m glad it’s been working fine other than the battery, which I’ve replaced myself last year.
Personally I think there are a million other things to “worry” about before this, but hey, whatever you want to keep you up at nite.
I have an iPhone 6s, too. This worries me too. I don’t need yet one more thing to worry about, because I have too many things to worry about already (like my neighbor’s cigarette filth oozing into my house).
But Apple engineering has clearly crossed the line from “designed to be fit for function” into “designed for arbitrary style that is an opponent of reliability”.
Solder joints fracture from bending. Hmm... I didn’t know people were supposed to bend their phones. I’m wondering how many of the “defective” phones were dropped or sat on.
What a world to twisted systems where wear and tear is no longer valid...
Hey, it’s a bullshit lawsuit, but it’s definitely a factory defect and not wear and tear.
You suggesting that even though it was “definitely a factory defect” the plaintiffs should either just pay themselves to fix it or that Apple offered to fix it for free and they refused? Trying to figure out why you think it is “a bullshit lawsuit”? I had two 6 devices with the touch disease and both were replaced without question. If they haven’t though I would have been pretty annoyed with Apple. What would you suggest that they do to get the issue resolved?
When I see reports like this, I don’t always think it is the problem of the manufacturer, in this case Apple, but rather it is American justice system.
This is is no longer about consumer rights, it is all about blood sucking lawyers and lobbyists.
Hot coffee can’t be hot. Knife need a warning label about it will cut you open. It makes me wonder if gun manufacturers put warning on guns about it can kill people. But I guess it doesn’t matter.
Sorry for bad English.
Another person who was successfully programmed by McDonald’s propaganda against a woman they injured with unreasonably and dangerously unsafe coffee temperatures. People should expect coffee to be hot. They should not have to expect to be at risk of THIRD DEGREE BURNS if an all too normal event like a spill occurs.
Learn the facts, because that was not a frivolous lawsuit. It was a successful smear campaign against a customer that was severely injured by corporate malfeasance, with a policy of keeping coffee at dangerous temperatures, which McDonald’s had been repeatedly WARNED about and cited for during health and human safety inspections.
What a world to twisted systems where wear and tear is no longer valid...
iPhones for most of us are expensive products, a product that comes with a 1 year warranty. Of course if you want to spend another 10% of the purchase cost you can extend that warranty with Apple care. I can't think of anyone that thinks that is a good deal especially for a product which is used by the average person for several hours each day.
Apple's products are manufactured on a massive scale, they have a relatively low fail rate but they have a fail rate. There are internal documents proving this. Apple most likely expects this and has ofter (after frustrated customers have taken this problem public) done the right thing and addressed these issues. Sometimes Apple does not and a class action suit is brought against the company and I fully support those suing Apple in this case. Some AI readers really live up to the cult stereotype that unfortunately defined Apple products users in the past. Stop defending a Trillion dollar company which has an army of lawyers, it does not need your help and your loyalty to a brand is scary as hell.
I understand what happened to 6, but 7? Makes me worried about my 6s too since they are the same size. I’m glad it’s been working fine other than the battery, which I’ve replaced myself last year.
Personally I think there are a million other things to “worry” about before this, but hey, whatever you want to keep you up at nite.
But Apple engineering has clearly crossed the line from “designed to be fit for function” into “designed for arbitrary style that is an opponent of reliability”.
In your last post you say people don’t have all the data. Now you claim Apple engineering is faulty.
This is a straight up lie without no factual basis whatsoever. And you’re criticizing people for believing propaganda?
I have experienced the exact same symptoms as described in this article and assumed it was just my phone that was having the problem. I am relieved to know that it’s not just my phone, and I’m thankful for legitimate lawsuits like this.
I understand what happened to 6, but 7? Makes me worried about my 6s too since they are the same size. I’m glad it’s been working fine other than the battery, which I’ve replaced myself last year.
Personally I think there are a million other things to “worry” about before this, but hey, whatever you want to keep you up at nite.
Well it has the similar size as the 7, and both of them were using 7000 series aluminum, so I can feel concerned about it. That doesn’t mean I think the 6s is unreliable though.
I think this kind of defect is relative and whether it is a defect is largely a matter of degree.
For myself, I took advantage of the iPhone 6 Touch Disease and got a new phone out of it: While Touch Disease is real, it is also relative. Mine didn't breakdown till after 3 years of use and only then when I added my grandson's smaller iPhone 7 to the same pocket where I carried my 6+ while we played basketball. The 6+ bent over the smaller 7 and touch disease developed.
So, was that a defective phone or misuse on my part? I think the answer may be "Both". And I suspect that this problem may be similar: if you don't "over stress" the phone, the problem doesn't happen: But, what is "over stressing"?
An analogy might be: when I tore down one of my early IBM Thinkpads I found that it contained a separate full size titanium frame inside. That obviously added considerable bulk to the laptop but it also made it near bullet proof -- NOTHING was going to bend inside of there. Nothing! Apple could easily avoid these problems by adding thick, bulky titanium frame to the inside of its phones -- but then we would likely complain that they weren't slim enough.
These are difficult problems that force Tim to earn his paycheck.
You got a good question to begin with, and a horrible conclusion.
I understand what happened to 6, but 7? Makes me worried about my 6s too since they are the same size. I’m glad it’s been working fine other than the battery, which I’ve replaced myself last year.
Personally I think there are a million other things to “worry” about before this, but hey, whatever you want to keep you up at nite.
I have an iPhone 6s, too. This worries me too. I don’t need yet one more thing to worry about, because I have too many things to worry about already (like my neighbor’s cigarette filth oozing into my house).
But Apple engineering has clearly crossed the line from “designed to be fit for function” into “designed for arbitrary style that is an opponent of reliability”.
That last conclusion is so easy to say. Yes we do know the 7 fails and 6s shares similar size, but that’s all we know. Remember that 6s is a year older than 7 too.
One thing many people seem to miss is Apple was fixing this issue at no cost for a time, and then just suddenly stopped and is now treating the issue as user fault and charging them to fix it. This to me, sounds like a hardware flaw they are trying to sweep under the rug, much like the MacBook keyboard issue, the iPad Pro white spot issue and the 6/6 Plus Touch disease issue. They have a history of doing this and I have been recommending people do not buy the 7 or 7 Plus when asked in person or on places online since last summer. This is a lawsuit I think it is perfectly apt and I fully support it.
I think this kind of defect is relative and whether it is a defect is largely a matter of degree.
For myself, I took advantage of the iPhone 6 Touch Disease and got a new phone out of it: While Touch Disease is real, it is also relative. Mine didn't breakdown till after 3 years of use and only then when I added my grandson's smaller iPhone 7 to the same pocket where I carried my 6+ while we played basketball. The 6+ bent over the smaller 7 and touch disease developed.
So, was that a defective phone or misuse on my part? I think the answer may be "Both". And I suspect that this problem may be similar: if you don't "over stress" the phone, the problem doesn't happen: But, what is "over stressing"?
An analogy might be: when I tore down one of my early IBM Thinkpads I found that it contained a separate full size titanium frame inside. That obviously added considerable bulk to the laptop but it also made it near bullet proof -- NOTHING was going to bend inside of there. Nothing! Apple could easily avoid these problems by adding thick, bulky titanium frame to the inside of its phones -- but then we would likely complain that they weren't slim enough.
These are difficult problems that force Tim to earn his paycheck.
You got a good question to begin with, and a horrible conclusion.
LOL... So how is presenting Tim with difficult decisions and having him earn his pay a "horrible conclusion"?
As I pointed out -- there are no solutions to this that don't come with compromises. That's hard. And so, yes, Tim earns his pay.
It looks like the "Loop Disease" is broken trace on the board, so that's why people solder a small wire, whereas "Touch Disease" is because of loose connection. The case is not exactly the same.
Comments
How do you know it’s a defect? Circuit boards are not supposed to be subjected to flex/stress. Of course with consumer devices that’s not completely unavoidable. People do drop, hit or sit on their phones.
The question is, how many impacts should a device be able to withstand before something eventually fails? Is there a standard somewhere you’re aware of? How will these lawyers prove it’s a defect? Simple. They can’t. Just because a certain issue happens with 1 in n devices doesn’t make it a defect. They’re going to need a very large sample size in order to get this figure and prove that this problem will eventually occur in a significant number of devices.
I saw an article from one of those iPhone/Mac repair shops (you know, the people who think they’re smarter than engineers, yet their job is nothing more than a technician several Pay grades below a real engineer) who claimed this issue was an ”epidemic”.
The flaw with their thinking is that they only see the devices that have this flaw, not the millions who don’t. So while they might have a steady stream of customers with this issue (who likely Googled their problem and found their shop through an ad to fix it) it doesn’t mean all devices have this issue.
I had a chat with a technician who thought a certain engine in a certain vehicle was garbage. His reasoning? Every car that came into the dealer with the check engine light on and a specific fault code required major engine work costing thousands of dollars. He was absolutely correct on the fault code in that these engines did require expensive work if they had this fault. The problem was he didn’t know how many vehicles never have this problem - he’s only counting the ones he sees in the shop and thinks that 100% of them eventually have this issue.
Makes me me wonder how someone can be reasonably intelligent enough to repair devices (which requires someone who can think logically) yet they can’t understand their customers don’t represent all users.
Personally I think there are a million other things to “worry” about before this, but hey, whatever you want to keep you up at nite.
Ironic you mention the 4, since it was indeed known for another complete non-issue.
These repair people may indeed see a valid trend. Their regular exposure to it makes it seem much more notable. If they aren’t considering selection bias, they’ll report it as “all devices eventually experience this flaw.” In some cases, they’re not wrong.
Their data is still useful and shouldn’t be blown off as mere stupidity, ignorance, or arrogance. They’re seeing something you’re not. To them, you might seem oblivious. If we don’t have the numbers of actual products in the hands of customers, and the number of repairs/replacements done by the manufacturer, we cannot compare those numbers to third-party repair reports to come to a certain conclusion, and manufacturers depend on that to maintain their claims of “misrepresentation” when repair people declare a problem is endemic. Manufacturers do lie.
But Apple engineering has clearly crossed the line from “designed to be fit for function” into “designed for arbitrary style that is an opponent of reliability”.
Learn the facts, because that was not a frivolous lawsuit. It was a successful smear campaign against a customer that was severely injured by corporate malfeasance, with a policy of keeping coffee at dangerous temperatures, which McDonald’s had been repeatedly WARNED about and cited for during health and human safety inspections.
Apple's products are manufactured on a massive scale, they have a relatively low fail rate but they have a fail rate. There are internal documents proving this. Apple most likely expects this and has ofter (after frustrated customers have taken this problem public) done the right thing and addressed these issues. Sometimes Apple does not and a class action suit is brought against the company and I fully support those suing Apple in this case. Some AI readers really live up to the cult stereotype that unfortunately defined Apple products users in the past. Stop defending a Trillion dollar company which has an army of lawyers, it does not need your help and your loyalty to a brand is scary as hell.
In your last post you say people don’t have all the data. Now you claim Apple engineering is faulty.
This is a straight up lie without no factual basis whatsoever. And you’re criticizing people for believing propaganda?
As I pointed out -- there are no solutions to this that don't come with compromises. That's hard. And so, yes, Tim earns his pay.
Loop Disease:
Touch Disease: