ARM severs ties with Huawei, creating crisis for future phone designs

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 81
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 1,966member
    tmay said:
    tzeshan said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. 
    Your creating an equivalency, regarding the quality of information provided by a democratically elected, accountable government (Trump's and Obama's, both of whom have found issues with Huawei -- in fact, Trump is merely following up on many of the issues left over from the Obama administration) operating in a society with a free press to a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship that controls speech and movement, is beyond troubling.

    It's actually shocking.
    You are being fooled about the IP-thieving accusation. It is done by Chinese companies. Chinese government has repeatedly denied it and the denial are simply ignored. You are full of logic mistakes just like the US government. Huawei is a private company as it has insisted. In order to justify the statement that China is a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship, the China bashers insisted that Huawei is a Chinese government entity although they provided no evidence. The situation is like when Bush wants to attack Iraq he has to justify Saddam is making WMD. The war proved that it is big lie. But US did nothing in regard to the lie. So US is very accustomed to making lies about other nations. and taking no responsibility. All the leaders can do is announcing national interests and national emergency. And these are lies. US fabricated a lot of facts. Is the western world which triumphed with scientific revolution to lead the world are falling into? Fabricating facts just not Christian culture? Democracy can thrive only through lies? 
    I previously provided a link to a scholarly article, by individuals with background in Chinese legal constructs,  that concluded that Huawei was in fact 1% owned by Ren, and 99% owned by a Chinese Workers Union, that is the Chinese Government. Huawei responded to that. but did not provide any transparency that disproved the conclusion of the authors. 

    Easy fix. Huawei opens up its books to independent parties. But of course, that won't happen in China, will it.

    Just for future reference, whataboutism isn't actually a good debating strategy, unless, as I suspect, you don't actually have any facts to debate.
    You need to to learn logic. You provided no evidence that Chinese Workers Union is the Chinese Government. Then you make the implications. I can give you one lead. I read that one of Huawei director wrote an article to NYT yesterday. Can you find out if the director works for Chinese government? 
  • Reply 22 of 81
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,741member
    tzeshan said:
    tmay said:
    tzeshan said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. 
    Your creating an equivalency, regarding the quality of information provided by a democratically elected, accountable government (Trump's and Obama's, both of whom have found issues with Huawei -- in fact, Trump is merely following up on many of the issues left over from the Obama administration) operating in a society with a free press to a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship that controls speech and movement, is beyond troubling.

    It's actually shocking.
    You are being fooled about the IP-thieving accusation. It is done by Chinese companies. Chinese government has repeatedly denied it and the denial are simply ignored. You are full of logic mistakes just like the US government. Huawei is a private company as it has insisted. In order to justify the statement that China is a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship, the China bashers insisted that Huawei is a Chinese government entity although they provided no evidence. The situation is like when Bush wants to attack Iraq he has to justify Saddam is making WMD. The war proved that it is big lie. But US did nothing in regard to the lie. So US is very accustomed to making lies about other nations. and taking no responsibility. All the leaders can do is announcing national interests and national emergency. And these are lies. US fabricated a lot of facts. Is the western world which triumphed with scientific revolution to lead the world are falling into? Fabricating facts just not Christian culture? Democracy can thrive only through lies? 
    I previously provided a link to a scholarly article, by individuals with background in Chinese legal constructs,  that concluded that Huawei was in fact 1% owned by Ren, and 99% owned by a Chinese Workers Union, that is the Chinese Government. Huawei responded to that. but did not provide any transparency that disproved the conclusion of the authors. 

    Easy fix. Huawei opens up its books to independent parties. But of course, that won't happen in China, will it.

    Just for future reference, whataboutism isn't actually a good debating strategy, unless, as I suspect, you don't actually have any facts to debate.
    You need to to learn logic. You provided no evidence that Chinese Workers Union is the Chinese Government. Then you make the implications. I can give you one lead. I read that one of Huawei director wrote an article to NYT yesterday. Can you find out if the director works for Chinese government? 
    Logic tells me that an authoritarian government, ie, China, isn't going to give any Western liberal government, ie, the U.S., accurate information proving or disproving that Huawei is state owned. As I stated, without transparency, there can only be conclusions based on existing facts. Without financial records, there is no way to trace where investment comes from. If it walks like a duck, it probably is a duck.

    Seems like this would be an easy fix for both the Chinese Government and Huawei.



    I guessing that this will be blocked for you...by the Chinese Government.


    edited May 22 anantksundaramStrangeDaysmagman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 81
    acejax805acejax805 Posts: 73member
    avon b7 said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. A lot of the concerns seem to be pure conjecture or hypotheticals and ignore the fact that all countries, US and EU ones included, have both the ability and incentives to place surveillance inside any hardware or software communication platforms and equipment, whether at the manufacturing point of origin or through interception anywhere in the supply, distribution, or service channels and pretty much regardless of where the equipment is deployed. It's not like Huawei is building a giant ship with a massive crane to mine manganese nodules from the bottom of the ocean off the east coast of the US, or anything like that...
    There is absolutely nothing more than you point out.

    The Trump administration simply didn't want to see the Chinese take a tech lead (5G for example) over the US.

    Trump tried to get other countries to do the dirty work by banning Huawei. Most of those countries refused (after requesting evidence and not getting any) and as a US ban wasn't going to be enough, he simply declared a 'national emergency' to justify an executive order. This in spite of court cases (by both sides) already being underway.

    Why wait for the legalities to be cleared up when you can skip that part altogether?

    We are now in Wild West Politics and the sheriff is acting like one of those dodgy sheriffs in some crazy western.

    Blatant protectionism and nothing else save for the conjecture and hypotheticals.

    This is not the precedent the US should be setting on a world stage. 

    Not sure what world you've been living in the last 100 or so years, but this is what politics is. This is what countries do. They manage deals, relationships, et.al. that protect their country and their interests. People are so upset that the US is finally doing the same thing. China has been doing this since the 1980s. What rock has everyone been living under? Now the outrage comes out? Disingenuous af. 
    tmayStrangeDaysLordeHawkwatto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 81
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 7,570member
    tzeshan said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. 
    Your creating an equivalency, regarding the quality of information provided by a democratically elected, accountable government (Trump's and Obama's, both of whom have found issues with Huawei -- in fact, Trump is merely following up on many of the issues left over from the Obama administration) operating in a society with a free press to a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship that controls speech and movement, is beyond troubling.

    It's actually shocking.
    Huawei is a private company as it has insisted. In order to justify the statement that China is a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship, the China bashers insisted that Huawei is a Chinese government entity although they provided no evidence.
    No, they aren't. Its leader is a CPC member, and the US security senate committee has been debriefed by US intelligence agencies that they are effectively an arm of the CPC. As every Chinese company is, really, as by law they must do as the government orders them to do.

    Are you in denial, or just paid or to spread misinformation? Or coerced? Are you OK?
    edited May 22 magman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 81
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 1,966member
    tmay said:
    tzeshan said:
    tmay said:
    tzeshan said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. 
    Your creating an equivalency, regarding the quality of information provided by a democratically elected, accountable government (Trump's and Obama's, both of whom have found issues with Huawei -- in fact, Trump is merely following up on many of the issues left over from the Obama administration) operating in a society with a free press to a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship that controls speech and movement, is beyond troubling.

    It's actually shocking.
    You are being fooled about the IP-thieving accusation. It is done by Chinese companies. Chinese government has repeatedly denied it and the denial are simply ignored. You are full of logic mistakes just like the US government. Huawei is a private company as it has insisted. In order to justify the statement that China is a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship, the China bashers insisted that Huawei is a Chinese government entity although they provided no evidence. The situation is like when Bush wants to attack Iraq he has to justify Saddam is making WMD. The war proved that it is big lie. But US did nothing in regard to the lie. So US is very accustomed to making lies about other nations. and taking no responsibility. All the leaders can do is announcing national interests and national emergency. And these are lies. US fabricated a lot of facts. Is the western world which triumphed with scientific revolution to lead the world are falling into? Fabricating facts just not Christian culture? Democracy can thrive only through lies? 
    I previously provided a link to a scholarly article, by individuals with background in Chinese legal constructs,  that concluded that Huawei was in fact 1% owned by Ren, and 99% owned by a Chinese Workers Union, that is the Chinese Government. Huawei responded to that. but did not provide any transparency that disproved the conclusion of the authors. 

    Easy fix. Huawei opens up its books to independent parties. But of course, that won't happen in China, will it.

    Just for future reference, whataboutism isn't actually a good debating strategy, unless, as I suspect, you don't actually have any facts to debate.
    You need to to learn logic. You provided no evidence that Chinese Workers Union is the Chinese Government. Then you make the implications. I can give you one lead. I read that one of Huawei director wrote an article to NYT yesterday. Can you find out if the director works for Chinese government? 
    Logic tells me that an authoritarian government, ie, China, isn't going to give any Western liberal government, ie, the U.S., accurate information proving or disproving that Huawei is state owned. As I stated, without transparency, there can only be conclusions based on existing facts. Without financial records, there is no way to trace where investment comes from. If it walks like a duck, it probably is a duck.

    Seems like this would be an easy fix for both the Chinese Government and Huawei.



    I guessing that this will be blocked for you...by the Chinese Government.


    Your logic is still flawed. Let me switch the roll of US and China to show you. According to your statement logic, will US government give accurate information to China whether a company like Google before its IPO  is state owned? Further even without transparency you can not use your imagination to infer anything. It is illogical, And I asked you to check the identity of Huawei director who wrote on NYT. Did you do that? Or you don't care about facts like you are pretending. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 26 of 81
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,035member
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. 
    Your creating an equivalency, regarding the quality of information provided by a democratically elected, accountable government (Trump's and Obama's, both of whom have found issues with Huawei -- in fact, Trump is merely following up on many of the issues left over from the Obama administration) operating in a society with a free press to a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship that controls speech and movement, is beyond troubling.

    It's actually shocking.

    Well stated.  It's not about Trump.  He's more aggressive with China to say the least, but both administrations understand/understood what China was and is doing.  
    magman1979StrangeDaysLordeHawkwatto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 81
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,035member

    tzeshan said:

    sdw2001 said:
    avon b7 said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. A lot of the concerns seem to be pure conjecture or hypotheticals and ignore the fact that all countries, US and EU ones included, have both the ability and incentives to place surveillance inside any hardware or software communication platforms and equipment, whether at the manufacturing point of origin or through interception anywhere in the supply, distribution, or service channels and pretty much regardless of where the equipment is deployed. It's not like Huawei is building a giant ship with a massive crane to mine manganese nodules from the bottom of the ocean off the east coast of the US, or anything like that...
    There is absolutely nothing more than you point out.

    The Trump administration simply didn't want to see the Chinese take a tech lead (5G for example) over the US.

    Trump tried to get other countries to do the dirty work by banning Huawei. Most of those countries refused (after requesting evidence and not getting any) and as a US ban wasn't going to be enough, he simply declared a 'national emergency' to justify an executive order. This in spite of court cases (by both sides) already being underway.

    Why wait for the legalities to be cleared up when you can skip that part altogether?

    We are now in Wild West Politics and the sheriff is acting like one of those dodgy sheriffs in some crazy western.

    Blatant protectionism and nothing else save for the conjecture and hypotheticals.

    This is not the precedent the US should be setting on a world stage. 


    This is incredibly naive.  It's not just an insecure platform or the specter of secret surveillance/tracking.  It's about:  

    1.  The relationship between the Communist Party/Government and "private" business.  
    2.  The requirements placed upon said business, including surveillance and cooperation with government "requests" (e.g. spying, targeting). 
    3.  China's advanced cyber and and industrial espionage programs 
    4.  The company's advanced presence in 5G technology, which will soon be deployed world-wide.  

    In the end, this about China's wish to be globally dominant in all areas.  Technology/the Internet is a key goal for them.  Imagine an Internet run, in essence, by the Communist Chinese instead of the free market West.  Huawei is not just some company that might be risky to do business with.  They are an integral part of China's government, which seeks world domination.  This is is why we are banning them.  China has had it out for us since the late 1970's.  They have been executing a 75 year plan to take us on militarily, economically and geopolitically.  By 2050, their goal is to be the world's Super Power.   

    But yeah, that Trump is nuts, huh?  
    All are one sided biased talks. 

    Apparently AI has bots.   
    magman1979StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 81
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 1,966member
    tzeshan said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. 
    Your creating an equivalency, regarding the quality of information provided by a democratically elected, accountable government (Trump's and Obama's, both of whom have found issues with Huawei -- in fact, Trump is merely following up on many of the issues left over from the Obama administration) operating in a society with a free press to a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship that controls speech and movement, is beyond troubling.

    It's actually shocking.
    Huawei is a private company as it has insisted. In order to justify the statement that China is a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship, the China bashers insisted that Huawei is a Chinese government entity although they provided no evidence.
    No, they aren't. Its leader is a CPC member, and the US Security Council has been debriefed by US intelligence agencies that they are effectively an arm of the CPC. As every Chinese company is, really, as by law they must do as the government orders them to do.

    Are you in denial, or just paid or to spread misinformation? Or coerced? Are you OK?
    You have a flawed logic too. So every Republican in the US works for US government? Come on! Stop using this low level illogical argument. I thought the western world is superior to China because they learned logic. Apparently logic has to be learned over and over. And don't use the US Security Council to support you. Because we cannot see the briefing. It is not transparent. If it is not open to the public you can not use it in your logic. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 29 of 81
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 1,966member
    sdw2001 said:

    tzeshan said:

    sdw2001 said:
    avon b7 said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. A lot of the concerns seem to be pure conjecture or hypotheticals and ignore the fact that all countries, US and EU ones included, have both the ability and incentives to place surveillance inside any hardware or software communication platforms and equipment, whether at the manufacturing point of origin or through interception anywhere in the supply, distribution, or service channels and pretty much regardless of where the equipment is deployed. It's not like Huawei is building a giant ship with a massive crane to mine manganese nodules from the bottom of the ocean off the east coast of the US, or anything like that...
    There is absolutely nothing more than you point out.

    The Trump administration simply didn't want to see the Chinese take a tech lead (5G for example) over the US.

    Trump tried to get other countries to do the dirty work by banning Huawei. Most of those countries refused (after requesting evidence and not getting any) and as a US ban wasn't going to be enough, he simply declared a 'national emergency' to justify an executive order. This in spite of court cases (by both sides) already being underway.

    Why wait for the legalities to be cleared up when you can skip that part altogether?

    We are now in Wild West Politics and the sheriff is acting like one of those dodgy sheriffs in some crazy western.

    Blatant protectionism and nothing else save for the conjecture and hypotheticals.

    This is not the precedent the US should be setting on a world stage. 


    This is incredibly naive.  It's not just an insecure platform or the specter of secret surveillance/tracking.  It's about:  

    1.  The relationship between the Communist Party/Government and "private" business.  
    2.  The requirements placed upon said business, including surveillance and cooperation with government "requests" (e.g. spying, targeting). 
    3.  China's advanced cyber and and industrial espionage programs 
    4.  The company's advanced presence in 5G technology, which will soon be deployed world-wide.  

    In the end, this about China's wish to be globally dominant in all areas.  Technology/the Internet is a key goal for them.  Imagine an Internet run, in essence, by the Communist Chinese instead of the free market West.  Huawei is not just some company that might be risky to do business with.  They are an integral part of China's government, which seeks world domination.  This is is why we are banning them.  China has had it out for us since the late 1970's.  They have been executing a 75 year plan to take us on militarily, economically and geopolitically.  By 2050, their goal is to be the world's Super Power.   

    But yeah, that Trump is nuts, huh?  
    All are one sided biased talks. 

    Apparently AI has bots.   
    Apparently AI has a lot of people who cannot use logic. 
  • Reply 30 of 81
    magman1979magman1979 Posts: 1,129member
    tzeshan said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. 
    Your creating an equivalency, regarding the quality of information provided by a democratically elected, accountable government (Trump's and Obama's, both of whom have found issues with Huawei -- in fact, Trump is merely following up on many of the issues left over from the Obama administration) operating in a society with a free press to a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship that controls speech and movement, is beyond troubling.

    It's actually shocking.
    You are being fooled about the IP-thieving accusation. It is done by Chinese companies. Chinese government has repeatedly denied it and the denial are simply ignored. You are full of logic mistakes just like the US government. Huawei is a private company as it has insisted. In order to justify the statement that China is a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship, the China bashers insisted that Huawei is a Chinese government entity although they provided no evidence. The situation is like when Bush wants to attack Iraq he has to justify Saddam is making WMD. The war proved that it is big lie. But US did nothing in regard to the lie. So US is very accustomed to making lies about other nations. and taking no responsibility. All the leaders can do is announcing national interests and national emergency. And these are lies. US fabricated a lot of facts. Is the western world which triumphed with scientific revolution to lead the world are falling into? Fabricating facts just not Christian culture? Democracy can thrive only through lies? 
    The only person being fooled is you, Mr I Won’t Take My Blinders Off.

    I have spent a lot of time in mainland China, and what Anantksundaram said is 100% factual and true, about their government(s) (national and regional), and the majority of the population. It’s both a cultural way of being, and political.

    Wake up to the reality, not the rosy “we did nothing wrong, we are the victim” reality perpetrated by the draconian, communist terror group known as the PRC.
    edited May 22 StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 81
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,035member

    tzeshan said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. 
    Your creating an equivalency, regarding the quality of information provided by a democratically elected, accountable government (Trump's and Obama's, both of whom have found issues with Huawei -- in fact, Trump is merely following up on many of the issues left over from the Obama administration) operating in a society with a free press to a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship that controls speech and movement, is beyond troubling.

    It's actually shocking.
    You are being fooled about the IP-thieving accusation. It is done by Chinese companies. Chinese government has repeatedly denied it and the denial are simply ignored. 

    Maybe because they are lying?  

    You are full of logic mistakes just like the US government. Huawei is a private company as it has insisted. In order to justify the statement that China is a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship, the China bashers insisted that Huawei is a Chinese government entity although they provided no evidence.

    There is absolutely no argument that the relationship between the Chinese government and Chinese corporations is incestuous.  The Chinese government is Communist and is stealing IP through espionage and forced technology transfers.  The Chinese government is draconian, particularly when it comes to dissent and freedom of speech.  Go to China and do a search for Tiananmen Square, the anniversary of which is approaching.  You'll find nothing.  Huawei may not be an "agency" of the government, but they are beholden to the government.  They are uncomfortably close with the government.  The United States cannot tolerate a company like that getting a major foothold in our tech infrastructure.  


    The situation is like when Bush wants to attack Iraq he has to justify Saddam is making WMD. The war proved that it is big lie. But US did nothing in regard to the lie. So US is very accustomed to making lies about other nations. and taking no responsibility. All the leaders can do is announcing national interests and national emergency. And these are lies. US fabricated a lot of facts. Is the western world which triumphed with scientific revolution to lead the world are falling into? Fabricating facts just not Christian culture? Democracy can thrive only through lies? 


    That is a silly analogy.  I won't get into the WMD debate, because it's clear you have no understanding or interest in what actually happened there.  I will say that coming in here claiming all the facts we know about China are a "big lie" is laughable.  I called you a bot in my previous post.  It's possible that you're just a paid Chinese propagandist.  Their ambassador was on FNC the other night, and I caught him while I was flipping around.  He spouted the same blatant denials you have.  No evidence?  You have to be kidding me.  Would you like a list of companies victimized by cyber espionage?  Would you like to look into the OPM hack?  Or the fact that China spends at least twice as much on its military as it claims?  Or tell me about the Belt and Road initiative?  Or Made in China 2025.  They are telling us their goals. They want domination in industry, technology, military, financially, etc.  This has been the plan for 40 years.   

    The Chinese people are being ruled by a brutal Communo-Capitalist cabal that wants to dominate the globe.  They simply put a nicer face on it than the Soviets did.  They are also much more dangerous, because they don't just have a bunch of nukes aimed at us.  They want complete control of every industry I've laid out.  They've learned from the Soviets' mistakes.  They've allowed enough quasi-captalism to get the prosperity needed to fund their expansion.   The only good news is we still outrank them in virtually every area.  Our trade deficit allows us to call the shots, like we're doing now.  We could do far more harm to them by reducing or even eliminating trade with them one ra period of years.  Their economy depends on double digit growth and they have 300 million people living like it was 1,000 years ago.  Now is the time to stand up to them.  


    edited May 22 tmayStrangeDaysLordeHawkwatto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 81
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 19,152member
    tzeshan said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. 
    Your creating an equivalency, regarding the quality of information provided by a democratically elected, accountable government (Trump's and Obama's, both of whom have found issues with Huawei -- in fact, Trump is merely following up on many of the issues left over from the Obama administration) operating in a society with a free press to a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship that controls speech and movement, is beyond troubling.

    It's actually shocking.
    You are being fooled about the IP-thieving accusation. It is done by Chinese companies. Chinese government has repeatedly denied it .... 
    OK. You're agreeing that Chinese companies steal IP. So, even if Huawei were solely a private company with no ties to the government, you're telling me that they stole IP to get to where they were. That is unconscionable behavior on their part.

    But, as you know the actions against Huawei by the US government are not for IP theft, but national security reasons. It has to do with their opaque code, the concern over backdoors, concern over Chinese tech firms being under the control of the government when it comes to information, and concern over whether Huawei was truly independent of the government. On top of which, Huawei is not willing to provide detailed financial information (as pointed out above), which would allow the US to assess their ownership structure.

    Bottom line: your arguments make no sense. or to the extent they do, they work against you.
    sdw2001watto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 81
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,769member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. A lot of the concerns seem to be pure conjecture or hypotheticals and ignore the fact that all countries, US and EU ones included, have both the ability and incentives to place surveillance inside any hardware or software communication platforms and equipment, whether at the manufacturing point of origin or through interception anywhere in the supply, distribution, or service channels and pretty much regardless of where the equipment is deployed. It's not like Huawei is building a giant ship with a massive crane to mine manganese nodules from the bottom of the ocean off the east coast of the US, or anything like that...
    There is absolutely nothing more than you point out.

    The Trump administration simply didn't want to see the Chinese take a tech lead (5G for example) over the US.

    Trump tried to get other countries to do the dirty work by banning Huawei. Most of those countries refused (after requesting evidence and not getting any) and as a US ban wasn't going to be enough, he simply declared a 'national emergency' to justify an executive order. This in spite of court cases (by both sides) already being underway.

    Why wait for the legalities to be cleared up when you can skip that part altogether?

    We are now in Wild West Politics and the sheriff is acting like one of those dodgy sheriffs in some crazy western.

    Blatant protectionism and nothing else save for the conjecture and hypotheticals.

    This is not the precedent the US should be setting on a world stage. 

     
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-huawei-usa-5g-specialreport/special-report-hobbling-huawei-inside-the-u-s-war-on-chinas-tech-giant-idUSKCN1SR1EU?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

    "Europeans pushed back, too. During one closed-door session, senior representatives from European telecom operators pressed a U.S. official for hard evidence that Huawei presented a security risk. One executive demanded to see a smoking gun, recalled the U.S. official. 


    The American official fired back: “If the gun is smoking, you’ve already been shot. I don’t know why you’re lining up in front of a loaded weapon.”


    I suspect that the U.S. sees Huawei as both "personal' and "strategic" to both Xi and China, based on all of the telegraphing Huawei and China have been doing about Huawei's breadth of accomplishments and basic resistance to Huawei.

    "Politics is war by other means"

    https://oll.libertyfund.org/pages/clausewitz-war-as-politics-by-other-means



    Or, as Tony Soprano might say, "We're going to bust their balls"


    Xi should have never backed out on the agreements that they made in the earlier trade negotiations.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/16/world/asia/trade-xi-jinping-trump-china-united-states.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

    "BEIJING — China’s leader, Xi Jinping, seemed confident three weeks ago that a yearlong trade war with the United States could soon subside, handing him a potent political victory.

    He even made a speech saying China would protect intellectual property, encourage foreign investment, and buy more goods and services from abroad — all changes the United States had been demanding as the countries tried to negotiate a deal.

    But just a week after that speech, Chinese negotiators sent the Americans a substantially rewritten draft agreement, prompting President Trump to accuse Beijing of reneging on terms that had been settled.

    That has left hopes for a historic breakthrough in tatters."

    Credit to the Czechs and Australians for leading off against Huawei.


    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-huawei-usa-5g-specialreport/special-report-hobbling-huawei-inside-the-u-s-war-on-chinas-tech-giant-idUSKCN1SR1EU?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews


    https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/how-australia-led-the-us-in-its-global-war-against-huawei-20190522-p51pv8.html

    What you just posted tacitly admitted that there is 'nothing in the bag' on Huawei. Something that simply confirms the madness in all this.

    However, we don't need much more than Trump's own words to see why this is happening. The fact that he is getting away with it (at least so far) says a lot about the damage he is causing around the world. I really can't see it lasting.

    China is preparing a response (according to the latest rumours) that puts Apple squarely in its crosshairs as a tit-for-tat  counter for the Huawei move and that will supposedly hit multibillion dollar Chinese investments in the US.

    The 'smoking gun' reference is a sign of how low things have got. Did he not understand that, through that reference, he will have to accept that other powers will be able to argue their cases in exactly the same way? Or does he think that only the US should be allowed that 'right'?

    This is pure, absolute protectionism. Nothing more.
    toysandme
  • Reply 34 of 81
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,769member
    acejax805 said:
    avon b7 said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. A lot of the concerns seem to be pure conjecture or hypotheticals and ignore the fact that all countries, US and EU ones included, have both the ability and incentives to place surveillance inside any hardware or software communication platforms and equipment, whether at the manufacturing point of origin or through interception anywhere in the supply, distribution, or service channels and pretty much regardless of where the equipment is deployed. It's not like Huawei is building a giant ship with a massive crane to mine manganese nodules from the bottom of the ocean off the east coast of the US, or anything like that...
    There is absolutely nothing more than you point out.

    The Trump administration simply didn't want to see the Chinese take a tech lead (5G for example) over the US.

    Trump tried to get other countries to do the dirty work by banning Huawei. Most of those countries refused (after requesting evidence and not getting any) and as a US ban wasn't going to be enough, he simply declared a 'national emergency' to justify an executive order. This in spite of court cases (by both sides) already being underway.

    Why wait for the legalities to be cleared up when you can skip that part altogether?

    We are now in Wild West Politics and the sheriff is acting like one of those dodgy sheriffs in some crazy western.

    Blatant protectionism and nothing else save for the conjecture and hypotheticals.

    This is not the precedent the US should be setting on a world stage. 

    Not sure what world you've been living in the last 100 or so years, but this is what politics is. This is what countries do. They manage deals, relationships, et.al. that protect their country and their interests. People are so upset that the US is finally doing the same thing. China has been doing this since the 1980s. What rock has everyone been living under? Now the outrage comes out? Disingenuous af. 
    Enlighten me with some cases on this scale.

    Protectionism. Not national security.
    toysandme
  • Reply 35 of 81
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,035member
    tzeshan said:
    sdw2001 said:

    tzeshan said:

    sdw2001 said:
    avon b7 said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. A lot of the concerns seem to be pure conjecture or hypotheticals and ignore the fact that all countries, US and EU ones included, have both the ability and incentives to place surveillance inside any hardware or software communication platforms and equipment, whether at the manufacturing point of origin or through interception anywhere in the supply, distribution, or service channels and pretty much regardless of where the equipment is deployed. It's not like Huawei is building a giant ship with a massive crane to mine manganese nodules from the bottom of the ocean off the east coast of the US, or anything like that...
    There is absolutely nothing more than you point out.

    The Trump administration simply didn't want to see the Chinese take a tech lead (5G for example) over the US.

    Trump tried to get other countries to do the dirty work by banning Huawei. Most of those countries refused (after requesting evidence and not getting any) and as a US ban wasn't going to be enough, he simply declared a 'national emergency' to justify an executive order. This in spite of court cases (by both sides) already being underway.

    Why wait for the legalities to be cleared up when you can skip that part altogether?

    We are now in Wild West Politics and the sheriff is acting like one of those dodgy sheriffs in some crazy western.

    Blatant protectionism and nothing else save for the conjecture and hypotheticals.

    This is not the precedent the US should be setting on a world stage. 


    This is incredibly naive.  It's not just an insecure platform or the specter of secret surveillance/tracking.  It's about:  

    1.  The relationship between the Communist Party/Government and "private" business.  
    2.  The requirements placed upon said business, including surveillance and cooperation with government "requests" (e.g. spying, targeting). 
    3.  China's advanced cyber and and industrial espionage programs 
    4.  The company's advanced presence in 5G technology, which will soon be deployed world-wide.  

    In the end, this about China's wish to be globally dominant in all areas.  Technology/the Internet is a key goal for them.  Imagine an Internet run, in essence, by the Communist Chinese instead of the free market West.  Huawei is not just some company that might be risky to do business with.  They are an integral part of China's government, which seeks world domination.  This is is why we are banning them.  China has had it out for us since the late 1970's.  They have been executing a 75 year plan to take us on militarily, economically and geopolitically.  By 2050, their goal is to be the world's Super Power.   

    But yeah, that Trump is nuts, huh?  
    All are one sided biased talks. 

    Apparently AI has bots.   
    Apparently AI has a lot of people who cannot use logic. 

    It's logical to write "all biased talks" and just move on?  I'm stating facts based on what we've learned over the past 30+ years.  I'm citing publicly announced policies and positions.  I'm referring to actual events that have taken place.  Your position is "LIES! ALL LIES!"   

    Please, tell me more about "logic."  
    StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 81
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,035member

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. A lot of the concerns seem to be pure conjecture or hypotheticals and ignore the fact that all countries, US and EU ones included, have both the ability and incentives to place surveillance inside any hardware or software communication platforms and equipment, whether at the manufacturing point of origin or through interception anywhere in the supply, distribution, or service channels and pretty much regardless of where the equipment is deployed. It's not like Huawei is building a giant ship with a massive crane to mine manganese nodules from the bottom of the ocean off the east coast of the US, or anything like that...
    There is absolutely nothing more than you point out.

    The Trump administration simply didn't want to see the Chinese take a tech lead (5G for example) over the US.

    Trump tried to get other countries to do the dirty work by banning Huawei. Most of those countries refused (after requesting evidence and not getting any) and as a US ban wasn't going to be enough, he simply declared a 'national emergency' to justify an executive order. This in spite of court cases (by both sides) already being underway.

    Why wait for the legalities to be cleared up when you can skip that part altogether?

    We are now in Wild West Politics and the sheriff is acting like one of those dodgy sheriffs in some crazy western.

    Blatant protectionism and nothing else save for the conjecture and hypotheticals.

    This is not the precedent the US should be setting on a world stage. 

     
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-huawei-usa-5g-specialreport/special-report-hobbling-huawei-inside-the-u-s-war-on-chinas-tech-giant-idUSKCN1SR1EU?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

    "Europeans pushed back, too. During one closed-door session, senior representatives from European telecom operators pressed a U.S. official for hard evidence that Huawei presented a security risk. One executive demanded to see a smoking gun, recalled the U.S. official. 


    The American official fired back: “If the gun is smoking, you’ve already been shot. I don’t know why you’re lining up in front of a loaded weapon.”


    I suspect that the U.S. sees Huawei as both "personal' and "strategic" to both Xi and China, based on all of the telegraphing Huawei and China have been doing about Huawei's breadth of accomplishments and basic resistance to Huawei.

    "Politics is war by other means"

    https://oll.libertyfund.org/pages/clausewitz-war-as-politics-by-other-means



    Or, as Tony Soprano might say, "We're going to bust their balls"


    Xi should have never backed out on the agreements that they made in the earlier trade negotiations.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/16/world/asia/trade-xi-jinping-trump-china-united-states.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

    "BEIJING — China’s leader, Xi Jinping, seemed confident three weeks ago that a yearlong trade war with the United States could soon subside, handing him a potent political victory.

    He even made a speech saying China would protect intellectual property, encourage foreign investment, and buy more goods and services from abroad — all changes the United States had been demanding as the countries tried to negotiate a deal.

    But just a week after that speech, Chinese negotiators sent the Americans a substantially rewritten draft agreement, prompting President Trump to accuse Beijing of reneging on terms that had been settled.

    That has left hopes for a historic breakthrough in tatters."

    Credit to the Czechs and Australians for leading off against Huawei.


    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-huawei-usa-5g-specialreport/special-report-hobbling-huawei-inside-the-u-s-war-on-chinas-tech-giant-idUSKCN1SR1EU?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews


    https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/how-australia-led-the-us-in-its-global-war-against-huawei-20190522-p51pv8.html

    What you just posted tacitly admitted that there is 'nothing in the bag' on Huawei. Something that simply confirms the madness in all this.

    However, we don't need much more than Trump's own words to see why this is happening. The fact that he is getting away with it (at least so far) says a lot about the damage he is causing around the world. I really can't see it lasting.

    China is preparing a response (according to the latest rumours) that puts Apple squarely in its crosshairs as a tit-for-tat  counter for the Huawei move and that will supposedly hit multibillion dollar Chinese investments in the US.

    The 'smoking gun' reference is a sign of how low things have got. Did he not understand that, through that reference, he will have to accept that other powers will be able to argue their cases in exactly the same way? Or does he think that only the US should be allowed that 'right'?

    This is pure, absolute protectionism. Nothing more.

    1.  What's in the bag?  The Chinese government's relationship to private industry.  

    2.  What "damage" is Trump causing around the world?  I'm quite serious.  

    3.  China does not have the economic firepower to drastically affect us.  The only thing they could really do is dump U.S. treasuries onto the market.  That would tank our economy, which in turn would tank the world economy.  It's suicide.  We could eliminate all trade with China within a few years and we'd recover just fine.  China would not.  They are 2% of our economy.  We are 20% of theirs.  

    4.  This is not protectionism.  This is called "fighting the war we have."   Trump is using tariffs to force China to make a better deal and get them to stop their blatant IP theft and cheating on trade.  The war doesn't go away just because you pretend it doesn't exist (just as every Republican and Democrat administration did before Trump).  
    anantksundarammr. hwatto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 81
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 1,966member
    tzeshan said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. 
    Your creating an equivalency, regarding the quality of information provided by a democratically elected, accountable government (Trump's and Obama's, both of whom have found issues with Huawei -- in fact, Trump is merely following up on many of the issues left over from the Obama administration) operating in a society with a free press to a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship that controls speech and movement, is beyond troubling.

    It's actually shocking.
    You are being fooled about the IP-thieving accusation. It is done by Chinese companies. Chinese government has repeatedly denied it .... 
    OK. You're agreeing that Chinese companies steal IP. So, even if Huawei were solely a private company with no ties to the government, you're telling me that they stole IP to get to where they were. That is unconscionable behavior on their part.

    But, as you know the actions against Huawei by the US government are not for IP theft, but national security reasons. It has to do with their opaque code, the concern over backdoors, concern over Chinese tech firms being under the control of the government when it comes to information, and concern over whether Huawei was truly independent of the government. On top of which, Huawei is not willing to provide detailed financial information (as pointed out above), which would allow the US to assess their ownership structure.

    Bottom line: your arguments make no sense. or to the extent they do, they work against you.
    In the most general sense, western world invented almost all the IPs in the modern world. You can say Chinese companies stole the western world IP. But in a legal sense, unless they stole a patent they are not against the law. I think the crimes the Chinese companies made is copycat. If you insist to use the most general definition then Google and Microsoft are first in stealing IPs from Apple. Why they are not targeted?

    Regarding the national security, did you read the statement by Department of Commerce? It is a violation of US law sanction Iran. Why there is such a law? Because after 911, US classified many entities as terrorist groups. The Israel wants to add PLA to the list. And US agreed. Iran sympathized with PLA, Accordingly Israel asked US to include Iran as a terrorist nation. US complied with Israel. So the bottom line is Huawei is a national security threat to Israel. Do you see how the logic evolves, I think a lot of European nations and Russia will agree with what I said. Only American people are constantly being fooled. 
    toysandme
  • Reply 38 of 81
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,741member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. A lot of the concerns seem to be pure conjecture or hypotheticals and ignore the fact that all countries, US and EU ones included, have both the ability and incentives to place surveillance inside any hardware or software communication platforms and equipment, whether at the manufacturing point of origin or through interception anywhere in the supply, distribution, or service channels and pretty much regardless of where the equipment is deployed. It's not like Huawei is building a giant ship with a massive crane to mine manganese nodules from the bottom of the ocean off the east coast of the US, or anything like that...
    There is absolutely nothing more than you point out.

    The Trump administration simply didn't want to see the Chinese take a tech lead (5G for example) over the US.

    Trump tried to get other countries to do the dirty work by banning Huawei. Most of those countries refused (after requesting evidence and not getting any) and as a US ban wasn't going to be enough, he simply declared a 'national emergency' to justify an executive order. This in spite of court cases (by both sides) already being underway.

    Why wait for the legalities to be cleared up when you can skip that part altogether?

    We are now in Wild West Politics and the sheriff is acting like one of those dodgy sheriffs in some crazy western.

    Blatant protectionism and nothing else save for the conjecture and hypotheticals.

    This is not the precedent the US should be setting on a world stage. 

     
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-huawei-usa-5g-specialreport/special-report-hobbling-huawei-inside-the-u-s-war-on-chinas-tech-giant-idUSKCN1SR1EU?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

    "Europeans pushed back, too. During one closed-door session, senior representatives from European telecom operators pressed a U.S. official for hard evidence that Huawei presented a security risk. One executive demanded to see a smoking gun, recalled the U.S. official. 


    The American official fired back: “If the gun is smoking, you’ve already been shot. I don’t know why you’re lining up in front of a loaded weapon.”


    I suspect that the U.S. sees Huawei as both "personal' and "strategic" to both Xi and China, based on all of the telegraphing Huawei and China have been doing about Huawei's breadth of accomplishments and basic resistance to Huawei.

    "Politics is war by other means"

    https://oll.libertyfund.org/pages/clausewitz-war-as-politics-by-other-means



    Or, as Tony Soprano might say, "We're going to bust their balls"


    Xi should have never backed out on the agreements that they made in the earlier trade negotiations.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/16/world/asia/trade-xi-jinping-trump-china-united-states.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

    "BEIJING — China’s leader, Xi Jinping, seemed confident three weeks ago that a yearlong trade war with the United States could soon subside, handing him a potent political victory.

    He even made a speech saying China would protect intellectual property, encourage foreign investment, and buy more goods and services from abroad — all changes the United States had been demanding as the countries tried to negotiate a deal.

    But just a week after that speech, Chinese negotiators sent the Americans a substantially rewritten draft agreement, prompting President Trump to accuse Beijing of reneging on terms that had been settled.

    That has left hopes for a historic breakthrough in tatters."

    Credit to the Czechs and Australians for leading off against Huawei.


    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-huawei-usa-5g-specialreport/special-report-hobbling-huawei-inside-the-u-s-war-on-chinas-tech-giant-idUSKCN1SR1EU?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews


    https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/how-australia-led-the-us-in-its-global-war-against-huawei-20190522-p51pv8.html

    What you just posted tacitly admitted that there is 'nothing in the bag' on Huawei. Something that simply confirms the madness in all this.

    However, we don't need much more than Trump's own words to see why this is happening. The fact that he is getting away with it (at least so far) says a lot about the damage he is causing around the world. I really can't see it lasting.

    China is preparing a response (according to the latest rumours) that puts Apple squarely in its crosshairs as a tit-for-tat  counter for the Huawei move and that will supposedly hit multibillion dollar Chinese investments in the US.

    The 'smoking gun' reference is a sign of how low things have got. Did he not understand that, through that reference, he will have to accept that other powers will be able to argue their cases in exactly the same way? Or does he think that only the US should be allowed that 'right'?

    This is pure, absolute protectionism. Nothing more.
    I just gave you the National Security perspective of a U.S. Government official. You ignore it. Fair enough.

    Then you state "absolute protectionism" without any data to back that up, ignoring that there is in fact a number of National Security issues with Huawei, and I posted the link to what the Australians had determined in their adversary simulations. Would you also blame the Czechs and Australia for "absolute protectionism"?

    I'm convinced both that Apple should stay in China, no matter the loss of sales, and that Apple will weather that loss of sales. Simply put, Apple is a better corporate citizen in China than Huawei in in China, and is a shining example of the best of America.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 81
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 7,570member
    tzeshan said:
    tzeshan said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. 
    Your creating an equivalency, regarding the quality of information provided by a democratically elected, accountable government (Trump's and Obama's, both of whom have found issues with Huawei -- in fact, Trump is merely following up on many of the issues left over from the Obama administration) operating in a society with a free press to a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship that controls speech and movement, is beyond troubling.

    It's actually shocking.
    Huawei is a private company as it has insisted. In order to justify the statement that China is a draconian IP-thieving communist dictatorship, the China bashers insisted that Huawei is a Chinese government entity although they provided no evidence.
    No, they aren't. Its leader is a CPC member, and the US Security Council has been debriefed by US intelligence agencies that they are effectively an arm of the CPC. As every Chinese company is, really, as by law they must do as the government orders them to do.

    Are you in denial, or just paid or to spread misinformation? Or coerced? Are you OK?
    You have a flawed logic too. So every Republican in the US works for US government? Come on! Stop using this low level illogical argument. I thought the western world is superior to China because they learned logic. Apparently logic has to be learned over and over. And don't use the US Security Council to support you. Because we cannot see the briefing. It is not transparent. If it is not open to the public you can not use it in your logic. 
    What on earth are you talking about? Yes, any Republican in federal office works for the US government. That's who writes their paychecks.

    As for China, there is only one party -- the murderous CPC, who will imprison or disappear anybody they disagree with.

    As a resident, I don't need to personally see security briefings -- we have a representative republic. They get to see them. If the US senators say they exist, I believe them. If you got to discredit everything you never personally saw then it would bring vast amounts of knowledge into doubt, as you personally never vetted most everything in life.

    Your bosses are authoritarian dictators. I may not like the Trump administration, but I dislike the ultra-corrupt, murderous Chinese government even less. It's a no-brainer. Trusting an authoritarian regime with the global internet is beyond stupid. 
    tmayradarthekatLordeHawkwatto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 81
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 7,570member

    avon b7 said:
    acejax805 said:
    avon b7 said:
    dewme said:
    I really wish there was some objective, scientific, and non-politicized coverage of the actual issues the US has with Huawei. A lot of the concerns seem to be pure conjecture or hypotheticals and ignore the fact that all countries, US and EU ones included, have both the ability and incentives to place surveillance inside any hardware or software communication platforms and equipment, whether at the manufacturing point of origin or through interception anywhere in the supply, distribution, or service channels and pretty much regardless of where the equipment is deployed. It's not like Huawei is building a giant ship with a massive crane to mine manganese nodules from the bottom of the ocean off the east coast of the US, or anything like that...
    There is absolutely nothing more than you point out.

    The Trump administration simply didn't want to see the Chinese take a tech lead (5G for example) over the US.

    Trump tried to get other countries to do the dirty work by banning Huawei. Most of those countries refused (after requesting evidence and not getting any) and as a US ban wasn't going to be enough, he simply declared a 'national emergency' to justify an executive order. This in spite of court cases (by both sides) already being underway.

    Why wait for the legalities to be cleared up when you can skip that part altogether?

    We are now in Wild West Politics and the sheriff is acting like one of those dodgy sheriffs in some crazy western.

    Blatant protectionism and nothing else save for the conjecture and hypotheticals.

    This is not the precedent the US should be setting on a world stage. 

    Not sure what world you've been living in the last 100 or so years, but this is what politics is. This is what countries do. They manage deals, relationships, et.al. that protect their country and their interests. People are so upset that the US is finally doing the same thing. China has been doing this since the 1980s. What rock has everyone been living under? Now the outrage comes out? Disingenuous af. 
    Enlighten me with some cases on this scale.

    Protectionism. Not national security.
    That's just like, your opinion, man. You can't prove that assertion. I have no reason to believe my senators are lying to me. I certainly trust them more than some chinese apologist on a website.
    anantksundaramwatto_cobra
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