Sheesh, you make it sound like "dig" is some horrible accusation like fraud or murder or something. Look, just swap out "dig" for something like "snark" or "snide" or "insinuation".
You will of course argue that under the most charitable reading of [any given statement], it isn't snark/snide/insinuation. But, of course, nothing that would be labeled snark/snide/insinuation could be read as such under the most charitable reading because *plausible deniability* is one of the primary features of snark/snide/insinuation.
"Dig" and the others are typically presented here as a negative thing. As such, they should be accurate and BACKED UP. Which is all I asked for in requesting examples from the "availability/status update" page that Alex referred to.
And why this bit about this "most charitable reading" stuff? Just like bias, it applies to both sides, doesn't it? That is, if one gives the "most negative" interpretation of what they wrote, is that one okay? This is the same point about how I'm supposedly biased because I have a TB, but no consideration for a person, upset because they don't have one, may be biased in their interpretations.
I'm quite willing to see what the examples are and, based on actual statements, give my opinion. You can give yours too if you want - instead of trying to set the field to assume I'm just automatically being overly charitable so whatever I actually say can be ignored. Then readers can see who they think makes the most sense.
I'll deliver the evidence, but c'mon DBK - give us a break. 4+ years of delay on a product that was meant to be shipped in mere weeks, and you've had two Tregblades in the last however many years, there's no question you are "supposedly biased" while those of us "out here" are clearly biased and pissed that we not only don't have TextBlades, we don't even have Tregblades.
You can get off your high horse any time now - there's no-one more charitable to the TB WT MK cause than DBK (aside from MK himself), and everyone knows it - even you! :-)
Anyway evidence is coming. I just have life to live and work to do, but rest assured, the evidence will come for you to chew over and reject wholeheartedly as is your right as a free citizen of the US and the world.
I'll deliver the evidence, but c'mon DBK - give us a break. 4+ years of delay on a product that was meant to be shipped in mere weeks, and you've had two Tregblades in the last however many years, there's no question you are "supposedly biased" while those of us "out here" are clearly biased and pissed that we not only don't have TextBlades, we don't even have Tregblades.
You can get off your high horse any time now - there's no-one more charitable to the TB WT MK cause than DBK (aside from MK himself), and everyone knows it - even you! :-)
If I'm so biased, why is it that I keep telling WT things they need to change or shouldn't have done? Or push them to do things they should be doing. Just earlier today I reminded them we are just a week from the end of May for the update they said was coming. I'm just picky about what I criticize because some things are just bogus. When they are, I point them out.
What shows the most bias: The person who defends and criticizes depending on the specific issue, or those who always attack, and in very personal ways?
People can chose: argue against what I actually say or just claim I'm biased. The choice they make tells me a lot. It also doesn't matter if I'm "more charitable" than anyone else. What matters is how well my arguments stand up to counter arguments (as opposed to just assumptions and claims).
BTW, I've had more than two text blades as things had to be solved and replacements sent. Which is how it should be. That is a complete non-issue.
Let's see what I can recall at the moment: I've said credit cards shouldn't have been charged until GR. I've objected to the constant missing up times for updates. I've said they are too quick to ban people. Likewise to force refund (those last two are not always wrong though). I've said they shouldn't assume someone works for a competitor (maybe some do, but if you are going to make such an accusation, you need to provide proof - otherwise remain silent on it).
In another category where I don't attack them, but also don't agree with some of the critics, I've pointed out what seems to be reasonable decisions that may make delays in shipping the right decision while ALSO saying it may not be. Depends on info no one outside WT has and even then, whichever decision is made may be just a best guess. There have been other things like that which I don't specifically recall at the moment.
And some things I absolutely defend WT on, such as when they are accused of something that definitely contradicts known facts. Or when someone claims I work for WT when, in fact, they could not possibly know that - but I absolutely know I don't. I would point out that of the more aggressive critics, it is darn rare to see any of them correct those critics who make such accusations. Doesn't that show their bias?
I'm not saying I am without bias. I am saying I handle it pretty well. Certainly better than those who do nothing but attack and assume. In any case, I present the arguments and examples so people can evaluate and compare.
Contrast my posts about the ADC instruction on the 6502 to Eric. I posted a bunch of examples showing I was right. Eric mostly just kept saying I was wrong, extended it to claim I did no programming at all, yet the one link he provided showed I was correct (somehow he didn't quote the part that showed that).
Watch out DBK, MK is reading, you might find your Tregblades bricked for being so honest and forthright in putting the vast majority of your many justified grievances in the one spot... be careful!
Watch out DBK, MK is reading, you might find your Tregblades bricked for being so honest and forthright in putting the vast majority of your many justified grievances in the one spot... be careful!
I've been saying these things for years. I'm not worried. Doesn't matter if they are in one spot or many. Mark never tells me what to say or what not to say. He doesn't even give me an opinion of what things I should or shouldn't post. Wouldn't matter if he did.
In our very first phone call, he talked about one of the first treg members who had posted plenty of criticisms, but Mark felt he was thoughtful in his comments so he got in Treg. You see, we don't have to agree with anyone from WayTools. That we post a lot of positive things about the TextBlade has nothing to do with being worried about getting our units bricked. It has to do with those are our honest opinions of the product.
Now, back to the issue of bias, look at how many times people have accused us of being afraid to be negative with only assumptions to "support" their claim. That's what true bias does.
Out of interest, I spent about 10 minutes sampling every 10th of DBK's posts as I was curious to see if you extrapolated into the future at what point DBK's posts in this thread would actually exceed the total number of posts in the thread...
I'm afraid I discovered that he's currently not really quite exceeding the 45 degree angle, but I thought it was rather fun nonetheless:
TextBladeDenied - customer mims wrote us and asked for a discount on expedited shipping as compensation for the wait.
And he no doubt made that request operating under a false pretense, established by you, that the product was shipping soon. (How many years ago was this exchange?)
Since we provide substantial perks for those who choose to keep a preorder, we let him decide If he preferred to trade any of those for expedited shipping. He didn’t. The perks are worth far more.
You are a repulsive liar and twister of truth. You cannot say 'we provide' - present tense - when you have, in fact, provided nothing. To the contrary, you have taken money from everyone, and provided absolutely nothing in exchange, except empty words. You have zero credibility.
But you already knew this, and seek to cast it as somehow bad.
Yes, its bad to offer something to people, when you have no intention of fulfilling that offer. Its a lie. Everything you are doing and have done for the last 4+ years has been 'bad' because it has all been a charade. Your purpose is to mislead people, to extract money.
That is demonstrably your purpose in wasting your days fixated on what you call a ‘joke’.
You are a joke. You are a bald-faced liar. You have no credibility. You are here right now bickering with people rather than finishing the product. You are here right now bickering with people over BS rather than offering even the slightest substantive or credible information about the completion of the project and the delivery status of the product. You are without shame.
You deserve to be sued into oblivion and subsequently imprisoned for fraud.
We know how We know the present firmware was There will continue to be Those who use it can they need to be they must rewrite you fix something you are rewriting you double (or more) the things that can go wrong you still need What this means that goes slower because that ignores the risks they are subject to there is risk
You just wrote another diatribe filled with speculation. Last I checked, you said you do not work for Waytools, and yet here you are again making ignorant and uninformed assertions on behalf of Waytools. You really have no place in this conversation Kahuna. You are a troll. Stop butting in and trying to answer questions for other people. You have no independent or verifiable or first hand information. Stop trying to cover for Mark Knighton. Stop trying to be his little Deflector in Chief. Stop lying on his behalf. Your behavior is pathetic.
@gmadden said his keyboard works fine and has no Bluetooth issues. My original questions stand for @gmadden. I am interested in hearing his answers and opinions. I'll repeat the post here for visibility:
gmadden said:
I personally don’t have problems with Bluetooth and my TextBlade. Daily I use TextBlade across iPhones, iPads, MacBooks.
TextBladeDenied said:
And yet, Mark Knighton refuses to ship it. Care to guess why?
Have you ever run a firmware update on your TextBlade gmadden, or heard of someone running a firmware update?
Have you heard any reports of any treg tester bricking a Textblade as part of a firmware update procedure?
Does interrupting a firmware update brick the keyboard?
Can a Textblade be un-bricked with a reset procedure and firmware upgrade re-run?
Why, in the entire universe of firmware upgradeable devices, is only Waytools unable to ship a product with firmware that can be easily upgraded at a later date?
There are countless little electronic gadgets available (with a fraction of the alleged R&D input of the Textblade) which have no problem implementing an intuitive firmware update procedure that works. Why can't Waytools figure that out? Have an opinion?
Why is the Textblade firmware update procedure so unreliable that Waytools cannot risk releasing firmware v1 while they finish v2?
If there is no serious and good faith logical answer to these questions, then perhaps the real answer is simply that there is no Textblade being offered for sale under any circumstance, and the technical issues alleged (firmware re-write) are a cover story.
Isn't the much more likely truth that they cannot afford to produce it (and thus lie to everyone by not disclosing that fact), or that they are restrained from selling it due to patent/legal issues (and thus they lie to everyone by not disclosing that fact)?
Mark Knighton is a liar. There is no believable technical explanation for not releasing the product. The firmware re-write excuses are lies.
Sure, here they are. Note how yours never acknowledge the fact that you can't say when the product will ship, but you certainly dance around it. (I removed line breaks to keep the emails easy to follow:
9/29/16: Hi John, Thanks for your email. We certainly understand that folks are eager to get their TextBlades, and sorry for our delay. We will be adding more TREG users, and will keep you in mind. Either way, just as TREG deliveries did happen, so will your shipment, and we hope you do love it when yours arrives. New TREG shipments always reflect the latest build process knowledge, and TREG user input is working very effectively to validate update details to help expedite general release. We've posted a Q4 window estimate on your status page while we work through inventory updates based on extensive user testing data, and flex fab is progressing as planned. You're in an early shipping group, so we do hope it'll be by your anniversary, but we'll have better visibility once we've tested finished TextBlades from this new process. We're using everything learned from TREG user experience, and putting it into what we ship to everyone. The heavy user testing is a conservative philosophy and takes time, but we think it's right for a big step forward.We very much appreciate your interest, and we are working hard to release something you will love. Thank you, WayTools Team
11/21/16: Hi John, Thanks for your email, and sorry for our delay. We've identified and believe we've now resolved an intermittent issue that could sometimes cause character swaps for some users. We've shipped newly updated units to the field, and we're analyzing more user input now to be certain that's it's completely validated, but so far it looks good. Customers have been reporting good improvements with the units that we've shipped out with these changes, and we believe we understand what was causing it and how to prevent it. We are testing firmware and lamination process changes we've made to address this. In the meantime, we've preemptively ordered some additional lamination part stock, to let us move pretty quickly if all checks out ok. So we have units in the field right now with the firmware and lamination changes, and we're hopeful that let's us start general release within this quarter. After our test release group customers confirm no further details to address, we'll start shipping general release. You'll get a Configuration Email a few days before your shipment is ready to go out with a link to control all the details, so you'll be notified automatically. Customers are pretty happy with our test release shipments, and you can read some of their comments on our Blog page, Customer Voices. We certainly don't want to take longer than needed, but with a significant advance, there's a duty to respond on those details, so everyone can enjoy what this new machine can really do. Thank you, WayTools Team 8/30/17: Hi John, Thanks so much for writing us, and very sorry for holding back general release. We are currently working with an expanding group of Test Release Group (TREG) users who we've shipped, to find and resolve any detail points they report based on their daily use. We'll confirm a final ship date for you once the remaining user observations have been settled, and that's expected over the next few months. We're very sorry our estimates can't be more precise right now. We'll update your Status Page again as we approach general release, and dates will become more definitive at that time. For many of our TREG customers, testing is already complete right now, but our users are pretty thorough on the details, and some have found unusual cases that are worth addressing before general release. They are finding less and less now, so that's quite encouraging. We're sorry that takes time, but we think you'll find it's definitely worth us making that extra effort. Very much appreciate your patience, John. We hope you are very pleased when your TextBlade arrives. Thank you, WayTools Team
3/15/18: Hi John, Thanks for checking in, and sorry for the late reply. Our team is in full swing, and very busy working together with hundreds of users who are helping validate TextBlade for general release. TREG users who have it now are already giving us strong validation that it is superior to all their other keyboards. You can read about what we're doing on the Feb 17 report on your order status page. We’ll update as we complete the testing and begin general release. Very sorry our estimates can’t be more precise right now. Your pre-order purchase entitles you to significant savings and other benefits with our Early Adopter Guarantee. Those benefits include free MultiMap (save $19 per TextBlade), free future-proof swap (save up to $99), and a special gift based on your order date. All of those are included free of charge with your pre-order, and each are worth quite a bit of money. Our intent is that folks who ordered early should get a better deal. If any of those benefits is not of interest to you, we'd be happy to let you trade one for having us pay expedited shipping for you. We’re committed to doing all that’s needed for a high quality general release, and expect that 2018 will be a fantastic year for TextBlade and all its users. Thank you, WayTools Team
8/28/18: Hi John, Thanks for your note, and very sorry for holding back release during validation. Yes, your estimated ship window is this summer, and we will update you on your Status Page as the details are cleared. We’re shipping more TextBlades to expand the installed base of users, and the process is working really well. As the punch list has narrowed, we bring in more users to surface any remaining details, at a pace our support team can resolve quickly. Sorry for the time for this phase, but it’s really the fastest way to deliver the best experience in general release. Once you get your TextBlade, we hope it’ll be clear why this approach is smart for a major paradigm shift in technology. We very much appreciate your patience, John. Thank you, WayTools Team
3/21/19: Hi John, Thanks for your email. We’re complying with FTC Regulations. We understand your impression on a quick read of them, but there’s more to the provisions, and you’ve conflated some of them. The context here is quite different from a default presumption of 30 days, if no time estimate had been stated. Here, we provide estimated dates which are some months out, and update as we have more info. We disclose and acknowledge the uncertainties of ship date on our order process, and don’t promise final dates until we have cleared certain technical milestones. We always let customers take a refund at will, at any time. If you study the FTC guidelines in depth (our legal team has), they apply to promised dates certain, rather than estimates that are disclosed to be uncertain. Ultimately, it’s always in the customer’s control whether to keep an order or get a quick refund. It’s easy for a customer to decide this online at any time, based on their view of contemporary status. The FTC always advises customers that the first recourse if not satisfied is simply to obtain a refund. That is the primary resolution mechanism. The regulations also provide for a vendor to make refunds preemptively and independently if needed, at the vendor’s discretion, in order to resolve any concerns of customers. The mod’s will suspend posts when they see information posted that is materially incorrect, which is represented as authoritative. In this case, this topic had already been visited many times on many threads, which are available on our site, and you can peruse. At this point, there is much published on topic covering the same points we discuss here with you in this email. We appreciate your interest, and hope you are delighted when you receive your TextBlade. Thank you, WayTools Team
3/21/19: Hi John, 1. To your timing question, we’ll be updating our order status server with new info soon. You can read a little about what we’re preparing right now, on our forum here - https://forum.waytools.com/t/summary-of-what-the-new-infrastructure-code-fork-is-about/5578/21 While we’re updating the firmware, for a rough idea, please assume it will be around summer when we get sign-off from the treg users, and can start general release. The team is working through detail points on this right now, so we’ll have a more defined forecast when we update the server. If you’d like to see some impressions from the customers we’ve already shipped, you can find them here https://forum.waytools.com/c/Reviews 2. To the comments about a class action, we’ve not been noticed of any such action, which is a legal requirement for an actual suit. We know a couple customers mused about this as a way to push shipping them as part of treg, however we don’t see a bludger as a way to invite a friendly relationship. Please forward the contact you received and we’ll talk with them to answer their questions. 3. For forum posts, mod’s do change trust level for a cooling period when they see assertions that misinform. That’s the essential utility of the trust rating. In your post, the language was postured as a fairly imperative form of a declaration to all our customers. It suggests FTC conflict. Yet it’s in a forum where the audience is well-informed of the delay, and indeed conversing about it. We have no interest in heavy-handedness. But experience has shown that common sense caution is wise to avoid unproductive debate where a party may have interests other than resolution. Below is the language from your post - “Of course, if it doesn't ship, we should all be reminded of the notification rules required by the Federal Trade Commission relating to sales on the Internet. https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules” You can weigh whether the mod’s take seems arbitrary, or rational in this context. Thank you, WayTools Team
3/22/19: Hi John, We’ll re-send your status page link via email. Use the Change tab there to cancel, and it will let you send the credit to any card you choose. So no worries if your old card expired. On your status page right near the schedule estimates, the explanations you want are located there, as the attached markups show. Your status page changes as we update with new information. You do not get an email each time your bank balance changes, for example. You just go online to your bank and can see the current balance. Your status page works the same way. We tried the notification email approach on earlier products, and many customers complained that there were simply too many notifications, so we adopted this method and customers prefer it. We had inventory when we made our first press announcement, but we held it back from mass release during this time, at great cost to us, because of the refinement work that we reported on in great detail as we progressed. You’ve referred to our press release, but didn’t acknowledge all that we reported since then. We accept that you don’t have faith in us, and won’t try to change your mind. But we do take pride in doing something distinguished, and treating our customers honorably. You can choose what to see, and what to ignore, as you please. In fairness, we did what we did, and posted what we wrote, even if you prefer not to read it or credit us for doing so. You may wish to judge us only on the part of the picture you choose to see, and are free to convince yourself we are uncaring, or unworthy. That’s up to you to decide. We mention these points not for our benefit, but on the chance that it might provide some closure and peace for you. With your refund, we’ll consider the matter settled. We’re grateful for your interest. Thank you, WayTools Team
Just to be clear, my argument all along has been that if you been proactively communicating with your paying clients you wouldn't have to be defending yourself on a forum about an article written weeks ago. All it takes is a simple email to your paying customers. Update them. But you won't do that.
How many customers - paying customers - paid their $99 and simply forgot about their order? You can see my first email to you was a year later because I had forgotten about my order. How many of your customers moved? How many no longer have the same email? How will you refund them? Do you care? If you did, you would email your customers and give them an update -- something that should have been done after the first delay.
You took $99 from countless people, and unless they have proactively contacted you, they have been forgotten. That's simply poor customer service.
Thanks for posting our responses Mims. It helps clarify how we endeavored to address your questions.
But you did fail and continue to fail to answer the main question that I had: When will the product ship?
I'm pretty sure that is because they can't be confident enough about a specific date. And, considering the many discovered issues, that makes sense.
But it was nevertheless interesting to see they took the time to write lengthy responses, answered a number of questions, and were cordial about it.
Thanks for your thoughts, Kahuna, but they have given specific dates. It started when I ordered in 2015. It would ship in March (I think - I'm too lazy to look). Then for every month for about a year, they would quietly change the shipping date. Then it changed to every quarter. When they changed the date from July 2015 to August 2015, did they really think there was any chance they could make that deadline? Given that we are 4 years out, I find that highly improbable. If that's the case, then that's dishonest.
They were very cordial, but they never answered my question only to imply that if I waited just a bit longer, I would have a TextBlade. Remember, you got yours. You paid $99 and if nothing else happens, you got what you paid for. I got nothing, but if you read the emails from my perspective, tell me why I shouldn't be upset? Tell me why anyone who is not in the TREG group should believe that they will ever get the product? We've seen pictures of product. We've seen blog posts about TextBlades being used far and wide. Why are the very first orderers not part of the TREG?
Also, beyond getting one TextBlade, has the company given YOU - dabigkahuna - anything else? ANYTHING of value. There are rumors that some of you are getting more for your continued support. Please put that rumor to rest.
Out of interest, I spent about 10 minutes sampling every 10th of DBK's posts as I was curious to see if you extrapolated into the future at what point DBK's posts in this thread would actually exceed the total number of posts in the thread...
I'm afraid I discovered that he's currently not really quite exceeding the 45 degree angle, but I thought it was rather fun nonetheless:
Well, lots of posts last night and I won't have time to get to most of them for awhile, but let's see what I can cover before heading out.
Your chart shows a greater distance vertically for every 200 than it does horizontally. That throws the angle off
Might be interesting if you made a similar chart combining all those who mostly criticize.
Kahuna Troll. My inquiry was directed at @gmadden, not you.
You just wrote another diatribe filled with speculation. Last I checked, you said you do not work for Waytools, and yet here you are again making ignorant and uninformed assertions on behalf of Waytools. You really have no place in this conversation Kahuna. You are a troll. Stop butting in and trying to answer questions for other people. You have no independent or verifiable or first hand information. Stop trying to cover for Mark Knighton. Stop trying to be his little Deflector in Chief. Stop lying on his behalf. Your behavior is pathetic.
1. On a public board, readable by the public which is free to respond. And there is the added benefit that I had good explanations.
2. Some speculation, based on known facts, all carefully described. Meanwhile, you not only speculate, you ignore things that have been said by WT that counter your assumptions. If you did pay attention, you might make arguments that having more free memory doesn't matter, but you don't. Of course, if I were you I wouldn't either since such a claim would make little sense, but at least you would be responding to known information.
Thanks for your thoughts, Kahuna, but they have given specific dates.
When they changed the date from July 2015 to August 2015, did they really think there was any chance they could make that deadline?
if you read the emails from my perspective, tell me why I shouldn't be upset?....Why are the very first orderers not part of the TREG?
Also, beyond getting one TextBlade, has the company given YOU - dabigkahuna - anything else? ANYTHING of value. There are rumors that some of you are getting more for your continued support. Please put that rumor to rest.
1. They gave lots of estimates. Some with more narrow windows, but still estimates.
2. I've been through this many times, including, I think, on this forum. But if necessary, I'll do it again after I get back.
3. I have no problem with being upset. I've also, though probably not here, said why it wouldn't be good to just ship Treg to the first orders. If you like, I'll cover that again too.
4. We don't get anything for our "support". Our task is to test. But, unfortunately, your question is the type of thing that if I say "no" to, then if you ever ask again and say "I can't comment", that would be equivalent to saying yes! So I'll tell you how this works though. Part of the NDA is that we don't talk about any products we may even hear possibilities about UNLESS WayTools talks about them publicly. To me that means I won't even talk about whether any exist, even if I'm not specific as to what they might be.
Two examples, which have both been commented on by WT so I can talk about them. One is the dongle. And I have one. Many (don't know if it is all) Treg testers do. This is NOT "for our continued support". It is something we test. They have also talked about the mouse. I sure don't have one of them. I don't even know if they have done anything except list what they will do and how they will do it. At some point, if they follow through, probably some of us will get to test it too. After all, WT said Treg testing will continue of GR. But, just like the dongle, it isn't about our "support". It is about testing.
Mims - your post 1069 repeats substantively the same content as your post 1026. It’s thousands of words.
In the guidelines for this forum, rule 12 is “Don't spam ... substantively the same content.” Please respect that spirit to allow productive discussion.
Removing all our formatting and line breaks doesn’t make our answers easier to follow. Mixing the distinct concepts together into one giant paragraph is harder to distinguish and follow.
There were many technical challenges we overcame to build TextBlade, and users really like it. Our replies to you, and the posts on our site make clear that time windows are estimates, and more defined dates will follow completion of validation tests from customers. We’ve posted a lot of info as we’ve progressed through this work.
We understand that this process is not what you prefer. We suggested and you accepted a refund, which you acknowledge was prompt.
Since you are not ordering a TextBlade, please have consideration for those who are, and want us to focus on expanding shipments as soon as possible. Thank you.
Mims - your post 1069 repeats substantively the same content as your post 1026. It’s thousands of words.
In this case it wasn’t his fault because he mentioned before that he sent it and it went to moderation. Thus he made adjustments and we saw that in 1026 and now the one that went to moderation finally showed up. Happened to me once so I assume that is the case here.
And yet, Mark Knighton refuses to ship it. Care to guess why
I’m always amazed at these kinds of statements since he has explained why. You may not like the explanation - but then you would be explaining why. Or you may want more detail, as I do, but then you’d be talking about that. Instead you pretend no reason has been given.
We know how lack of free memory is at least a big part of this. We know the present firmware was said to work well enough. There is no contradiction in theses two things though it can seem that way on the surface.
Yes, we know that the present firmware works well enough. That's why we want WayTools to ship. The lack of free memory doesn't actually affect current performance; it (and the consequent "necessity" of an immediate rewrite) is just an excuse to delay shipping.
There will continue to be issues found. Those who use it can see how complicated it is and how it is virtually impossible to find all problems that will be discovered with mass shipments.
So they need to be able to fix those things efficiently. With no free memory, they must rewrite not only the problematic code but often other code just to make room!
1) They don't have to actually fix every problem that is reported in real time as it is reported. They do have the option to tell people that a fix is on the way in an update that is coming soon. (hee-hee, I see what I did there.) Waiting for fixes is annoying to be sure, but much less annoying than waiting for General Release. And while we wait we'd be delighted (presumably as delighted as current TREGgers) with the product in hand.
WayTools says that they aren't demanding perfection before they ship. That means they are going to have to accept that their imperfections will be out in the wild for a while.
2) Yes, they'd have to develop their current problematic code at the same time as writing the new fork. In common industry parlance, that's what a code fork means--working on 2 parallel versions of the code at the same time (hence a fork with its parallel tines). If you just stop development on one and only work on the other, that's a rewrite. WayTools really should stop calling it a "firmware fork" and call it what it really is--a rewrite from the ground up.
Yes, developing the current code and new code at the same time is hard work. That's what they set out to do, right? A keyboard revolution? Revolutions are hard work and don't get done all in one step. They have to accept that it will get done in stages. It took Apple 3 versions before they got Cut/Copy/Paste into iPhone. They didn't delay the whole product until Cut/Copy/Paste was ready; they shipped. Real artists ship.
As many like to say, any time a feature is added or even just expanded, no matter how simple, you can create new problems. Somehow they forget all that in this case! ...
I have not forgotten. This argument is why they need to stop with the feature creep and actually freeze the feature set or they will never get around to shipping as the problems will keep multiplying. Somehow you keep drawing the opposite conclusion from this argument than you ought to.
One can claim they should do it that way anyway, but that ignores the risks of ordinary users being unhappy with the results if they are subject to any newly discovered problems. Sure, there is risk with either choice, but if you want them to go with your choice, then invest in creating your own product.
...There were many technical challenges we overcame to build TextBlade, and users really like it. Our replies to you, and the posts on our site make clear that time windows are estimates, and more defined dates will follow completion of validation tests from customers. We’ve posted a lot of info as we’ve progressed through this work...
I appreciate you’re trying to thread a needle here with your use of the word “customers”. You’re clearly using it to further the narrative that the “product has [technically] been successfully shipped to customers...”, however you may want to consider that using it seriously triggers people (also customers) who are not seeing and experiencing that “success”. Moreover, knowing that people who had an order placed significantly later than they have had months/years long access to the fabled product might feel like having your nose rubbed in dog poop...
I say this simply for your consideration... I am sure you don’t want your customers feeling like they’ve had their nose rubbed in it.
(Seriously, it’s just an observation, feel free to disregard entirely... but it’s always worthwhile considering any point of view which comes from your own blind spots. Don’t ever forget the business adage; stupid leaders should surround themselves with smart people... smart leaders surround themselves with smart people who disagree with them...)
I have seen time and again where you get yourself in a terrible tangle with your communications and it is clear that public relations is not your area of expertise; you (possibly unintentionally) write things which people take offence to and your defence of those situations becomes emotional, often leading to silence (whether due to fits of pique or a frustration that you find yourself in no-win situations...)
It may be worth employing a public relations/communications specialist. These are easily avoidable “rookie” issues. An employed specialist is not so emotionally tied to “the product” and therefore tend not to fall in to emotional comms errors.
I know it’s just a single word, but it’s a word (and comms strategy) a professional would have avoided - it’s obvious to an objective professional that particular word/phrase, whilst pleasing the company’s internal idea of itself and “pumping up public perception to the uninformed”, nevertheless has a high probability of antagonising existing customers with unfulfilled orders (actually, all customer orders remain unfulfilled if we’re being honest...)
1. They gave lots of estimates. Some with more narrow windows, but still estimates.
I don't feel like you know what an estimate means in a business context. For example, if a contractor gives an estimate for a project, and I take them up on it and pay them, they can't just unilaterally change the price afterwards and claim "It was jut an estimate! I was surprised by something so now it is going to cost more!"
In this case it is shipping date and not price, but the point still stands. And offering refunds is not good enough, just like it wouldn't be good enough in the contracting example. Like if a contractor had my deck half-built, you wouldn't just say "Just take a refund!"--I'd be well within my rights to demand that they actually finish the job instead of refunding me with the job not done.
Edit to add: To say it more concisely, you can hold someone to an estimate in a business context even though you wouldn't in a social context.
In the guidelines for this forum, rule 12 is “Don't spam ... substantively the same content.” Please respect that spirit to allow productive discussion.
Whoops-a-daisy! I guess you forgot once again that you are not the admin here, Mark Knighton. Head on over to your forum if you want to tell people about the rules.
There were many technical challenges we overcame to build TextBlade, and users really like it.
Clarification for anyone who does not speak MarkKnightonese: They do not have any 'users'. They have 131 people who paid them to test an unfinished and unreleased product, but 10,000+ customers have received nothing.
Our replies to you, and the posts on our site make clear that time windows are estimates, and more defined dates will follow completion of validation tests from customers. We’ve posted a lot of info as we’ve progressed through this work.
And in case anybody is just joining in, a friendly reminder that the 'time window estimates' began 4+ years ago, and every single one of those 'time windows' that Mark Knighton (Waytools_support) posted on his site has been a complete falsehood. For 4+ years he has said: 'shipping next week', 'shipping next month', 'shipping end of April 2015', 'shipping this summer (2015)', 'shipping in spring (2016)', 'shipping after a few weeks of testing (2016, 2017, 2018)', 'updates coming soon (jan feb march apr may jun july aug sep oct nov dec jan feb march apr may jun july aug sep oct nov dec jan feb march apr may jun july aug sep oct nov dec jan feb march apr may)'
If Waytools_Support (Mark Knighton) says something, you can bet good money that it will not happen and win win win!
Remember that folks. You are dealing with a manipulative lying scam artist here. Buyer beware!
Comments
You can get off your high horse any time now - there's no-one more charitable to the TB WT MK cause than DBK (aside from MK himself), and everyone knows it - even you! :-)
Anyway evidence is coming. I just have life to live and work to do, but rest assured, the evidence will come for you to chew over and reject wholeheartedly as is your right as a free citizen of the US and the world.
Cheers
Alex,
What shows the most bias: The person who defends and criticizes depending on the specific issue, or those who always attack, and in very personal ways?
People can chose: argue against what I actually say or just claim I'm biased. The choice they make tells me a lot. It also doesn't matter if I'm "more charitable" than anyone else. What matters is how well my arguments stand up to counter arguments (as opposed to just assumptions and claims).
BTW, I've had more than two text blades as things had to be solved and replacements sent. Which is how it should be. That is a complete non-issue.
Let's see what I can recall at the moment: I've said credit cards shouldn't have been charged until GR. I've objected to the constant missing up times for updates. I've said they are too quick to ban people. Likewise to force refund (those last two are not always wrong though). I've said they shouldn't assume someone works for a competitor (maybe some do, but if you are going to make such an accusation, you need to provide proof - otherwise remain silent on it).
In another category where I don't attack them, but also don't agree with some of the critics, I've pointed out what seems to be reasonable decisions that may make delays in shipping the right decision while ALSO saying it may not be. Depends on info no one outside WT has and even then, whichever decision is made may be just a best guess. There have been other things like that which I don't specifically recall at the moment.
Contrast my posts about the ADC instruction on the 6502 to Eric. I posted a bunch of examples showing I was right. Eric mostly just kept saying I was wrong, extended it to claim I did no programming at all, yet the one link he provided showed I was correct (somehow he didn't quote the part that showed that).
In our very first phone call, he talked about one of the first treg members who had posted plenty of criticisms, but Mark felt he was thoughtful in his comments so he got in Treg. You see, we don't have to agree with anyone from WayTools. That we post a lot of positive things about the TextBlade has nothing to do with being worried about getting our units bricked. It has to do with those are our honest opinions of the product.
Now, back to the issue of bias, look at how many times people have accused us of being afraid to be negative with only assumptions to "support" their claim. That's what true bias does.
I'm afraid I discovered that he's currently not really quite exceeding the 45 degree angle, but I thought it was rather fun nonetheless:
You are a repulsive liar and twister of truth. You cannot say 'we provide' - present tense - when you have, in fact, provided nothing. To the contrary, you have taken money from everyone, and provided absolutely nothing in exchange, except empty words. You have zero credibility.
Yes, its bad to offer something to people, when you have no intention of fulfilling that offer. Its a lie. Everything you are doing and have done for the last 4+ years has been 'bad' because it has all been a charade. Your purpose is to mislead people, to extract money.
You are a joke. You are a bald-faced liar. You have no credibility. You are here right now bickering with people rather than finishing the product. You are here right now bickering with people over BS rather than offering even the slightest substantive or credible information about the completion of the project and the delivery status of the product. You are without shame.
You deserve to be sued into oblivion and subsequently imprisoned for fraud.
@gmadden said his keyboard works fine and has no Bluetooth issues. My original questions stand for @gmadden. I am interested in hearing his answers and opinions. I'll repeat the post here for visibility:
How many customers - paying customers - paid their $99 and simply forgot about their order? You can see my first email to you was a year later because I had forgotten about my order. How many of your customers moved? How many no longer have the same email? How will you refund them? Do you care? If you did, you would email your customers and give them an update -- something that should have been done after the first delay.
You took $99 from countless people, and unless they have proactively contacted you, they have been forgotten. That's simply poor customer service.
They were very cordial, but they never answered my question only to imply that if I waited just a bit longer, I would have a TextBlade. Remember, you got yours. You paid $99 and if nothing else happens, you got what you paid for. I got nothing, but if you read the emails from my perspective, tell me why I shouldn't be upset? Tell me why anyone who is not in the TREG group should believe that they will ever get the product? We've seen pictures of product. We've seen blog posts about TextBlades being used far and wide. Why are the very first orderers not part of the TREG?
Also, beyond getting one TextBlade, has the company given YOU - dabigkahuna - anything else? ANYTHING of value. There are rumors that some of you are getting more for your continued support. Please put that rumor to rest.
https://forum.waytools.com/t/is-supported-another-multibyte-language/127
edit: BTW, as we are very close to the end of May do you know more precisely when will you post it ?
Your chart shows a greater distance vertically for every 200 than it does horizontally. That throws the angle off
Might be interesting if you made a similar chart combining all those who mostly criticize.
2. Some speculation, based on known facts, all carefully described. Meanwhile, you not only speculate, you ignore things that have been said by WT that counter your assumptions. If you did pay attention, you might make arguments that having more free memory doesn't matter, but you don't. Of course, if I were you I wouldn't either since such a claim would make little sense, but at least you would be responding to known information.
2. I've been through this many times, including, I think, on this forum. But if necessary, I'll do it again after I get back.
3. I have no problem with being upset. I've also, though probably not here, said why it wouldn't be good to just ship Treg to the first orders. If you like, I'll cover that again too.
4. We don't get anything for our "support". Our task is to test. But, unfortunately, your question is the type of thing that if I say "no" to, then if you ever ask again and say "I can't comment", that would be equivalent to saying yes! So I'll tell you how this works though. Part of the NDA is that we don't talk about any products we may even hear possibilities about UNLESS WayTools talks about them publicly. To me that means I won't even talk about whether any exist, even if I'm not specific as to what they might be.
Two examples, which have both been commented on by WT so I can talk about them. One is the dongle. And I have one. Many (don't know if it is all) Treg testers do. This is NOT "for our continued support". It is something we test. They have also talked about the mouse. I sure don't have one of them. I don't even know if they have done anything except list what they will do and how they will do it. At some point, if they follow through, probably some of us will get to test it too. After all, WT said Treg testing will continue of GR. But, just like the dongle, it isn't about our "support". It is about testing.
In the guidelines for this forum, rule 12 is “Don't spam ... substantively the same content.” Please respect that spirit to allow productive discussion.
Removing all our formatting and line breaks doesn’t make our answers easier to follow. Mixing the distinct concepts together into one giant paragraph is harder to distinguish and follow.
There were many technical challenges we overcame to build TextBlade, and users really like it. Our replies to you, and the posts on our site make clear that time windows are estimates, and more defined dates will follow completion of validation tests from customers. We’ve posted a lot of info as we’ve progressed through this work.
We understand that this process is not what you prefer. We suggested and you accepted a refund, which you acknowledge was prompt.
Since you are not ordering a TextBlade, please have consideration for those who are, and want us to focus on expanding shipments as soon as possible. Thank you.
1) They don't have to actually fix every problem that is reported in real time as it is reported. They do have the option to tell people that a fix is on the way in an update that is coming soon. (hee-hee, I see what I did there.) Waiting for fixes is annoying to be sure, but much less annoying than waiting for General Release. And while we wait we'd be delighted (presumably as delighted as current TREGgers) with the product in hand.
WayTools says that they aren't demanding perfection before they ship. That means they are going to have to accept that their imperfections will be out in the wild for a while.
2) Yes, they'd have to develop their current problematic code at the same time as writing the new fork. In common industry parlance, that's what a code fork means--working on 2 parallel versions of the code at the same time (hence a fork with its parallel tines). If you just stop development on one and only work on the other, that's a rewrite. WayTools really should stop calling it a "firmware fork" and call it what it really is--a rewrite from the ground up.
Yes, developing the current code and new code at the same time is hard work. That's what they set out to do, right? A keyboard revolution? Revolutions are hard work and don't get done all in one step. They have to accept that it will get done in stages. It took Apple 3 versions before they got Cut/Copy/Paste into iPhone. They didn't delay the whole product until Cut/Copy/Paste was ready; they shipped. Real artists ship.
I have not forgotten. This argument is why they need to stop with the feature creep and actually freeze the feature set or they will never get around to shipping as the problems will keep multiplying. Somehow you keep drawing the opposite conclusion from this argument than you ought to.
That is a false choice.
I say this simply for your consideration... I am sure you don’t want your customers feeling like they’ve had their nose rubbed in it.
(Seriously, it’s just an observation, feel free to disregard entirely... but it’s always worthwhile considering any point of view which comes from your own blind spots. Don’t ever forget the business adage; stupid leaders should surround themselves with smart people... smart leaders surround themselves with smart people who disagree with them...)
I have seen time and again where you get yourself in a terrible tangle with your communications and it is clear that public relations is not your area of expertise; you (possibly unintentionally) write things which people take offence to and your defence of those situations becomes emotional, often leading to silence (whether due to fits of pique or a frustration that you find yourself in no-win situations...)
It may be worth employing a public relations/communications specialist. These are easily avoidable “rookie” issues. An employed specialist is not so emotionally tied to “the product” and therefore tend not to fall in to emotional comms errors.
I know it’s just a single word, but it’s a word (and comms strategy) a professional would have avoided - it’s obvious to an objective professional that particular word/phrase, whilst pleasing the company’s internal idea of itself and “pumping up public perception to the uninformed”, nevertheless has a high probability of antagonising existing customers with unfulfilled orders (actually, all customer orders remain unfulfilled if we’re being honest...)
In this case it is shipping date and not price, but the point still stands. And offering refunds is not good enough, just like it wouldn't be good enough in the contracting example. Like if a contractor had my deck half-built, you wouldn't just say "Just take a refund!"--I'd be well within my rights to demand that they actually finish the job instead of refunding me with the job not done.
Edit to add: To say it more concisely, you can hold someone to an estimate in a business context even though you wouldn't in a social context.
Clarification for anyone who does not speak MarkKnightonese: They do not have any 'users'. They have 131 people who paid them to test an unfinished and unreleased product, but 10,000+ customers have received nothing.
And in case anybody is just joining in, a friendly reminder that the 'time window estimates' began 4+ years ago, and every single one of those 'time windows' that Mark Knighton (Waytools_support) posted on his site has been a complete falsehood. For 4+ years he has said: 'shipping next week', 'shipping next month', 'shipping end of April 2015', 'shipping this summer (2015)', 'shipping in spring (2016)', 'shipping after a few weeks of testing (2016, 2017, 2018)', 'updates coming soon (jan feb march apr may jun july aug sep oct nov dec jan feb march apr may jun july aug sep oct nov dec jan feb march apr may jun july aug sep oct nov dec jan feb march apr may)'
If Waytools_Support (Mark Knighton) says something, you can bet good money that it will not happen and win win win!
Remember that folks. You are dealing with a manipulative lying scam artist here. Buyer beware!