Editorial: China's retaliatory 'unreliable supplier' list will hit Windows, Android the ha...

24

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 64
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    lkrupp said:
    This has shades of 2001 where the U.S. created a pre-emptive war based on lies and rhetoric -- which went unchallenged despite a wealth of evidence to the contrary.

    Bush/Cheney:   "We KNOW the WMDs are there"

    Powell at the UN:   We have surveillance photos showing that WMDs are in THIS building
    UN Inspectors:  We've been in that building.  Inside with a trained inspection crew.  There's nothing there.
    BushCheney:   Why should we believe YOU?

    And so, here we go again:  Without a shred of supporting evidence, just lies and rhetoric bolstered by fear mongering, we are starting another war -- where BOTH sides are bound to lose.

    The first time, our western allies grudgingly and hesitatingly supported us (most of them -- remember "Freedom Fries"?).  This time that is not so likely to happen:   They have already called Trump's bluff on Huawei and Trump & gang responded by threatening them. 

    This is unlikely to end well -- except for Trump.   Trump will be able to use these new wars as a distraction from his upcoming impeachment, play the victim,  and rally his base around him.  Then, he'll retire to his gold plated estate richer than ever.   But the U.S. will be left trying to restore its reputation (again) with the rest of the world.
    Man, you are going to wind up in the loony bin when Trump is reelected to a second term. Get a grip. Impeachment? Go right ahead but remember you need 67 votes in the Senate to convict. There are 47 Democrats so you would need 20 Republicans to defect. That ain’t gonna happen and Pelosi knows it. Sorry but you need to know.
    Yeh, you’re right that McConnell’s senate will protect Trump from impeachment - almost no matter what. 

    But this, combined with his newly announced economic war against Mexico, may change that equation as the funders (the big ones) of those senators say “No Mas”!

    With these 2 wars, he’s impacting some powerful people - not just in China and Mexico but here in the U. S. as well as the UK & Europe.    They may not be able to get to Trump, but they can get to those senators. 

    As Pelosi says:   Trump seems to be asking for impeachment. 
    ronn
  • Reply 22 of 64
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,333member
    avon b7 said:
    Perhaps off topic but I just stumbled across this. I never went into the documents of the original case but if this report is factually accurate, it is a real eye opener:

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/05/31/chinese-intellectual-property-theft-the-indictment-of-huawei-is-an-embarrassment/
    Yeah, only it doesn't cover but one instance of Huawei stealing IP, there are many, so no, it isn't an eye opener, just an opinion piece.




    anantksundaramclaire1
  • Reply 23 of 64
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,404member
    mubaili said:
    It doesn’t make any sense. Then Trump would just add ZTE to the list as well. Both sides are stupid and both sides behave like a spoil kid throwing a tantrum.
    Both sides?   That's a false equivalency.   This is all Trump antagonizing and China finally responding.
    Wow you truly are a one-note-Johnny, aren’t you.

    We get it: you HATE Trump, and you LOVE Communists. Can you stop with the same-old same-old in every thread where every time someone mentions the word “Huawei” Dr Pavlov takes over?!
    JWSClkruppapple ][
  • Reply 24 of 64
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,404member
    avon b7 said:
    Perhaps off topic but I just stumbled across this. I never went into the documents of the original case but if this report is factually accurate, it is a real eye opener:

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/05/31/chinese-intellectual-property-theft-the-indictment-of-huawei-is-an-embarrassment/
    Counterpunch.org? 

    It’s the personification of a fake news rag. Pretty much like the Alex Jones of the Left.
    edited May 2019 tmayapple ][
  • Reply 25 of 64
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,678member
    avon b7 said:
    Perhaps off topic but I just stumbled across this. I never went into the documents of the original case but if this report is factually accurate, it is a real eye opener:

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/05/31/chinese-intellectual-property-theft-the-indictment-of-huawei-is-an-embarrassment/
    Counterpunch.org? 

    It’s the personification of a fake news rag. Pretty much like the Alex Jones of the Left.
    I really have no idea. It was a purely  accidental discovery. Never heard of it before but the author supposedly teaches economics at Columbia University. I don't think I've read anything by him except that piece.
  • Reply 26 of 64
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 4,297member
    avon b7 said:
    "Huawei's HiSilicon Kirin 980 is currently more than a year behind Apple's work, but China could go full rogue in selling existing ARM and Qualcomm infringing chips at a discount until it can produce its own designs, flooding the market and devastating Western markets for ARM and Qualcomm IP."

    Rubbish.

    It is built off the same process technology as the A12. It includes an on SoC modem. That modem is faster than any Apple modem. The SoC is compatible with Balong 5000. It had the world's fastest mobile wi-fi chipset. It's DSP/ISPs are state of the art. As are its NPUs.

    The modems and WiFi chipset are homegrown.

    That's the SoC.

    You are beam focussing narrowly on one basic and largely irrelevant metric.

    On the other hand, Apple lacks dual frequency GPS, it's battery technology has lacked for years, its shell designs are dated, its antenna designs have nowhere near the ability of Huawei's in troublesome areas, its camera designs have nowhere near the versatility of Huawei's, its charging tech (reverse wireless or cabled, or wireless) is behind etc.

    Huawei could not 'go rogue'. If it did, its phones would be banned from sale everywhere outside China!

    It can infringe alright but the products would literally be banned eveywhere they wanted to sell them.
    Do you work for Huawei or something? You sure seem to do a lot of marketing for them here.
    tmayronnbadmonk
  • Reply 27 of 64
    RocwurstRocwurst Posts: 60member
    avon b7 said:
    You are beam focussing narrowly on one basic and largely irrelevant metric.
    CPU and GPU speed is irrelevant?!

    Ahem, I think most commentators would agree those metrics are in fact the most important when comparing phone performance and on every single one the iPhone obliterates Huawei (and every other Android OEM).
    ronnbadmonkbakedbananas
  • Reply 28 of 64
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,678member
    Rocwurst said:
    avon b7 said:
    You are beam focussing narrowly on one basic and largely irrelevant metric.
    CPU and GPU speed is irrelevant?!

    Ahem, I think most commentators would agree those metrics are in fact the most important when comparing phone performance and on every single one the iPhone obliterates Huawei (and every other Android OEM).
    The simplest way to deal with your claim is for you yourself to find out through your own means.

    Go out and ask anyone with a Kirin 980 if speed is an issue. If it lacks in some way. If you don't know anyone, look around on the internet.

    It has been years since speed was an issue for users. 

    I use a Kirin 970 and speed isn't even a consideration.

    That is the reality for the vast majority of people but don't take my word for it. Ask and investigate for yourself!

    The same applies to Apple. Have you seen anyone clamouring to upgrade older handsets because of speed? People are holding onto their iPhones for longer and one of the reasons is that speed - even.on two year old hardware - is fine.

    What counts today, what sells new phones are other factors. Obviously each new generation is faster than the previous one and that won't change but camera tech is far more of a selling point right now the proof is in the pudding.

    Look at what reviewers and users are debating over. Look at what advertising is pushing (cameras). It is not speed.

    That is way off what most commentators consider most important.

    On the other hand faster WiFi, faster modems, signal stability, batteries and charging etc are still important to many users.

    Like I said, look around you. Who is complaining about the speed of the Kirin 980, QC845 etc? 

    Do you agree that for the vast majority of users, speed isn't a problem?


    edited May 2019 muthuk_vanalingamgatorguybakedbananasrinosaur
  • Reply 29 of 64
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,678member
    avon b7 said:
    "Huawei's HiSilicon Kirin 980 is currently more than a year behind Apple's work, but China could go full rogue in selling existing ARM and Qualcomm infringing chips at a discount until it can produce its own designs, flooding the market and devastating Western markets for ARM and Qualcomm IP."

    Rubbish.

    It is built off the same process technology as the A12. It includes an on SoC modem. That modem is faster than any Apple modem. The SoC is compatible with Balong 5000. It had the world's fastest mobile wi-fi chipset. It's DSP/ISPs are state of the art. As are its NPUs.

    The modems and WiFi chipset are homegrown.

    That's the SoC.

    You are beam focussing narrowly on one basic and largely irrelevant metric.

    On the other hand, Apple lacks dual frequency GPS, it's battery technology has lacked for years, its shell designs are dated, its antenna designs have nowhere near the ability of Huawei's in troublesome areas, its camera designs have nowhere near the versatility of Huawei's, its charging tech (reverse wireless or cabled, or wireless) is behind etc.

    Huawei could not 'go rogue'. If it did, its phones would be banned from sale everywhere outside China!

    It can infringe alright but the products would literally be banned eveywhere they wanted to sell them.
    Do you work for Huawei or something? You sure seem to do a lot of marketing for them here.
    I think we've had that conversation before. No.

    I simply pointed out the gaping holes in the line that was being peddled on that front.

    The piece is full of holes but I would be here all day if I had to pick up on all of them.

    I have no time for that. I believe what I wrote was factually correct and I'm sure someone would let me know if that weren't the case.

    It's just a bit of balance injected into a very skewed opinion.

    Someone would have to explain to me for example how Huawei could 'go rogue' and release, let's say the Kirin 1020, without all the licencing in place and get it into world markets on a new model.

    It would be halted before it got out of the gate. No retailer would touch it. No carrier would touch it.

    This applies to any US sourced or US connected component and includes software. The companies involved would place injunctions in all markets just for fear of Trump's retaliatory measures.

    I can't see 'going rogue' even being an option.


    muthuk_vanalingambakedbananas
  • Reply 30 of 64
    sfolaxsfolax Posts: 49member
    "However, rather than targeting Apple—the company that employs vast numbers of Chinese workers at plants ranging from Foxconn to Pegatron, and which supports a huge network of Chinese supply chain companies, and which sells the leading share of premium phones in China, which contributes billions in domestic VAT to China on local sales of devices, the P.R.C. has outlined that its retaliation will not be ill-considered and self-destructive, but will instead target the very companies that Trump ordered to stop doing business with Huawei."

    What a horrible constructed sentence. One of many in all of his articles.

    Is DED getting paid per word or is English a second or third language for him?
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 31 of 64
    claire1claire1 Posts: 510unconfirmed, member
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:
    avon b7 said:
    You are beam focussing narrowly on one basic and largely irrelevant metric.
    CPU and GPU speed is irrelevant?!

    Ahem, I think most commentators would agree those metrics are in fact the most important when comparing phone performance and on every single one the iPhone obliterates Huawei (and every other Android OEM).
    The simplest way to deal with your claim is for you yourself to find out through your own means.

    Go out and ask anyone with a Kirin 980 if speed is an issue. If it lacks in some way. If you don't know anyone, look around on the internet.

    It has been years since speed was an issue for users. 

    I use a Kirin 970 and speed isn't even a consideration.

    That is the reality for the vast majority of people but don't take my word for it. Ask and investigate for yourself!

    The same applies to Apple. Have you seen anyone clamouring to upgrade older handsets because of speed? People are holding onto their iPhones for longer and one of the reasons is that speed - even.on two year old hardware - is fine.

    What counts today, what sells new phones are other factors. Obviously each new generation is faster than the previous one and that won't change but camera tech is far more of a selling point right now the proof is in the pudding.

    Look at what reviewers and users are debating over. Look at what advertising is pushing (cameras). It is not speed.

    That is way off what most commentators consider most important.

    On the other hand faster WiFi, faster modems, signal stability, batteries and charging etc are still important to many users.

    Like I said, look around you. Who is complaining about the speed of the Kirin 980, QC845 etc? 

    Do you agree that for the vast majority of users, speed isn't a problem?



    Wow you're so short-sighted. Do you really think Apple creates its own processors for the sole purpose of opening apps faster?

    Also why do you insist on defending wannabe-Apple companies? Go to MacRumors, they'll LOVE YOU!
    ronnanantksundaramLordeHawk
  • Reply 32 of 64
    claire1claire1 Posts: 510unconfirmed, member

    sfolax said:
    "However, rather than targeting Apple—the company that employs vast numbers of Chinese workers at plants ranging from Foxconn to Pegatron, and which supports a huge network of Chinese supply chain companies, and which sells the leading share of premium phones in China, which contributes billions in domestic VAT to China on local sales of devices, the P.R.C. has outlined that its retaliation will not be ill-considered and self-destructive, but will instead target the very companies that Trump ordered to stop doing business with Huawei."

    What a horrible constructed sentence. One of many in all of his articles.

    Is DED getting paid per word or is English a second or third language for him?

    That's the best anti-Apple rubbish you could think of? DEDs sentence structure?
    ronnanantksundaramLordeHawk
  • Reply 33 of 64
    sfolaxsfolax Posts: 49member
    claire1 said:

    sfolax said:
    "However, rather than targeting Apple—the company that employs vast numbers of Chinese workers at plants ranging from Foxconn to Pegatron, and which supports a huge network of Chinese supply chain companies, and which sells the leading share of premium phones in China, which contributes billions in domestic VAT to China on local sales of devices, the P.R.C. has outlined that its retaliation will not be ill-considered and self-destructive, but will instead target the very companies that Trump ordered to stop doing business with Huawei."

    What a horrible constructed sentence. One of many in all of his articles.

    Is DED getting paid per word or is English a second or third language for him?

    That's the best anti-Apple rubbish you could think of? DEDs sentence structure?
    How can you take someone serious as a journalist when they cannot do basic English? If he can't be professional in the way he communicates then it completely undermines anything else he tries to say.

    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 34 of 64
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,678member
    claire1 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:
    avon b7 said:
    You are beam focussing narrowly on one basic and largely irrelevant metric.
    CPU and GPU speed is irrelevant?!

    Ahem, I think most commentators would agree those metrics are in fact the most important when comparing phone performance and on every single one the iPhone obliterates Huawei (and every other Android OEM).
    The simplest way to deal with your claim is for you yourself to find out through your own means.

    Go out and ask anyone with a Kirin 980 if speed is an issue. If it lacks in some way. If you don't know anyone, look around on the internet.

    It has been years since speed was an issue for users. 

    I use a Kirin 970 and speed isn't even a consideration.

    That is the reality for the vast majority of people but don't take my word for it. Ask and investigate for yourself!

    The same applies to Apple. Have you seen anyone clamouring to upgrade older handsets because of speed? People are holding onto their iPhones for longer and one of the reasons is that speed - even.on two year old hardware - is fine.

    What counts today, what sells new phones are other factors. Obviously each new generation is faster than the previous one and that won't change but camera tech is far more of a selling point right now the proof is in the pudding.

    Look at what reviewers and users are debating over. Look at what advertising is pushing (cameras). It is not speed.

    That is way off what most commentators consider most important.

    On the other hand faster WiFi, faster modems, signal stability, batteries and charging etc are still important to many users.

    Like I said, look around you. Who is complaining about the speed of the Kirin 980, QC845 etc? 

    Do you agree that for the vast majority of users, speed isn't a problem?



    Wow you're so short-sighted. Do you really think Apple creates its own processors for the sole purpose of opening apps faster?

    Also why do you insist on defending wannabe-Apple companies? Go to MacRumors, they'll LOVE YOU!
    Short sighted? Please expand.

    Is there anything inaccurate in what I wrote?

    How is the Kirin 980 a year behind the A12?

    That is a deliberately skewed viewpoint that seeks to misrepresent reality.

    And it is absurd. It is like claiming the iPhone Xs Max is 10 years behind any Android phone because it ships with a 5 watt charger!

    When was the last time you saw Apple, Huawei or Samsung pushing speed to sell the phones? Hasn't all the focus been on cameras for a few years now?

    All three produce their own processors.

    What are you trying to say?

    I don't insist on anything. I simply point out some outlandish claims and bring them back into reality. If people didn't make false, absurd, or deliberately skewed claims I wouldn't have to say anything.

    Or is it that you simply don't like hearing a different viewpoint?

    The question remains. Was I inaccurate in what I pointed out - because that is important and I would be thankful to know it.

    So, why was I short sighted?



    bakedbananas
  • Reply 35 of 64
    RocwurstRocwurst Posts: 60member
    avon b7 said:

    It has been years since speed was an issue for users. 

    I use a Kirin 970 and speed isn't even a consideration.

    That is the reality for the vast majority of people but don't take my word for it. Ask and investigate for yourself!

    The same applies to Apple. Have you seen anyone clamouring to upgrade older handsets because of speed? People are holding onto their iPhones for longer and one of the reasons is that speed - even.on two year old hardware - is fine.

    On the other hand faster WiFi, faster modems, signal stability, batteries and charging etc are still important to many users.

    Like I said, look around you. Who is complaining about the speed of the Kirin 980, QC845 etc? 

    Do you agree that for the vast majority of users, speed isn't a problem?


    Actually, when the Huawei only manages 17 frames per second on the latest 3D game vs 58 fps on an iPhone - yes speed absolutely is a problem.

    And yes, I see people complaining about the speed of slower phones all the time.  Slower to multitask, slower to launch, jerkier graphics in games - not as "fluid". It is all far more important than faster modem speeds because no Carrier allows phones to reach the theoretical maximum speeds of "faster" modems thanks to overcrowding the bandwidth.

    Also, the iPhone has excellent battery life so no the Huawei doesn't thrash the iPhone there either.
    tmayLordeHawk
  • Reply 36 of 64
    Dan_DilgerDan_Dilger Posts: 1,583member
    avon b7 said:
    Short sighted? Please expand.

    Is there anything inaccurate in what I wrote?

    How is the Kirin 980 a year behind the A12?

    That is a deliberately skewed viewpoint that seeks to misrepresent reality.

    And it is absurd. It is like claiming the iPhone Xs Max is 10 years behind any Android phone because it ships with a 5 watt charger!

    When was the last time you saw Apple, Huawei or Samsung pushing speed to sell the phones? Hasn't all the focus been on cameras for a few years now?

    All three produce their own processors.

    What are you trying to say?

    I don't insist on anything. I simply point out some outlandish claims and bring them back into reality. If people didn't make false, absurd, or deliberately skewed claims I wouldn't have to say anything.

    Or is it that you simply don't like hearing a different viewpoint?

    The question remains. Was I inaccurate in what I pointed out - because that is important and I would be thankful to know it.

    So, why was I short sighted?

    If Apple lost all support from Qualcomm, ARM and Intel, I don’t think you’d be arguing that it was no problem that it’s latest chip was only two years behind Other’s. 

    But of course the main point is that today’s phones aren’t the future. Think about where silicon is going, and the fact that Huawei has no wearables business paying for an all new level of silicon is a problem. 


    edited June 2019
  • Reply 37 of 64
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    mubaili said:
    It doesn’t make any sense. Then Trump would just add ZTE to the list as well. Both sides are stupid and both sides behave like a spoil kid throwing a tantrum.
    Both sides?   That's a false equivalency.   This is all Trump antagonizing and China finally responding.
    Wow you truly are a one-note-Johnny, aren’t you.

    We get it: you HATE Trump, and you LOVE Communists. Can you stop with the same-old same-old in every thread where every time someone mentions the word “Huawei” Dr Pavlov takes over?!
    Do I hate Trump?   No, but I hate the stupid, crooked, destructive stuff that he says and does.
    Do I love Huawei?   No, not even a little bit.  But I don't like to see any innocent bullied and attacked by criminals and extremists.

    I don' t love my country so much as I love the things it stands for and stands on:  Freedom based on justice and equality, fairness, justice and respect for law, morals, ethics and decency.   And when I see those values trampled on, I do not like it.

    Some here though seem to think that Might makes Right.   Trump certainly does.  That's another thing we disagree on.
    muthuk_vanalingamFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 38 of 64
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,678member
    Rocwurst said:
    avon b7 said:

    It has been years since speed was an issue for users. 

    I use a Kirin 970 and speed isn't even a consideration.

    That is the reality for the vast majority of people but don't take my word for it. Ask and investigate for yourself!

    The same applies to Apple. Have you seen anyone clamouring to upgrade older handsets because of speed? People are holding onto their iPhones for longer and one of the reasons is that speed - even.on two year old hardware - is fine.

    On the other hand faster WiFi, faster modems, signal stability, batteries and charging etc are still important to many users.

    Like I said, look around you. Who is complaining about the speed of the Kirin 980, QC845 etc? 

    Do you agree that for the vast majority of users, speed isn't a problem?


    Actually, when the Huawei only manages 17 frames per second on the latest 3D game vs 58 fps on an iPhone - yes speed absolutely is a problem.

    And yes, I see people complaining about the speed of slower phones all the time.  Slower to multitask, slower to launch, jerkier graphics in games - not as "fluid". It is all far more important than faster modem speeds because no Carrier allows phones to reach the theoretical maximum speeds of "faster" modems thanks to overcrowding the bandwidth.

    Also, the iPhone has excellent battery life so no the Huawei doesn't thrash the iPhone there either.
    Which part of 'one' metric didn't you catch?


  • Reply 39 of 64
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,678member
    avon b7 said:
    Short sighted? Please expand.

    Is there anything inaccurate in what I wrote?

    How is the Kirin 980 a year behind the A12?

    That is a deliberately skewed viewpoint that seeks to misrepresent reality.

    And it is absurd. It is like claiming the iPhone Xs Max is 10 years behind any Android phone because it ships with a 5 watt charger!

    When was the last time you saw Apple, Huawei or Samsung pushing speed to sell the phones? Hasn't all the focus been on cameras for a few years now?

    All three produce their own processors.

    What are you trying to say?

    I don't insist on anything. I simply point out some outlandish claims and bring them back into reality. If people didn't make false, absurd, or deliberately skewed claims I wouldn't have to say anything.

    Or is it that you simply don't like hearing a different viewpoint?

    The question remains. Was I inaccurate in what I pointed out - because that is important and I would be thankful to know it.

    So, why was I short sighted?

    If Apple lost all support from Qualcomm, ARM and Intel, I don’t think you’d be arguing that it was no problem that it’s latest chip was only two years behind Other’s. 

    But of course the main point is that today’s phones aren’t the future. Think about where silicon is going, and the fact that Huawei has no wearables business paying for an all new level of silicon is a problem. 


    Huawei does have a wearables business (latest results show 282% growth). Its silicon is already paid for! It also has over 500 partners for its HiLink protocol which will get a major boost with IoT/5G.

    Ascend Nano is at one end and then there is silicon for every step up, right into the cloud with massive compute power. When the Ascend Nano was announced, earbuds were given as an example of a use case. 

    "Along with the Ascend-Mini, Huawei has also announced the Ascend-Lite, Ascend-Tiny, and Ascend-Nano – all based on the Ascend 310 chipset. These low-power chips are designed to be used in smartphones, smart accessories, and smart watches."


    https://mybroadband.co.za/news/technology/279227-huawei-ascend-910-ai-chip-unveiled-the-greatest-computing-density-on-a-single-chip.html

    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.

    However, Huawei wants - options. It makes business sense. It will brew its own stuff too (now in an accelerated way due to Trump) to distinguish its products and enhance them but it sources from anyone with a worthwhile product. It is supposed to be a globalised supply chain.

    It uses Alexa, Google Assistant and YOYO depending on product and market. It uses Honor as a differentiator and allows it to compete with the mothership.

    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. There have even been reports of Samsung offering Huawei display tech to get access to its chip business.

    We have seen devastation in Taiwan wreaking havoc on the world supply chain. We cannot foresee when something else will come along and we also have the 'scare' of a faulty chemical causing production delays. Apple has its reasons but it remains a huge strategic risk nevertheless.

    On top of that we have things that are somewhat easier to foresee (Trump) and that's why Huawei has been ramping up plans to have less exposure to world political events and restrictions. As I said, these plans have just been fast tracked across the board (thanks to Trump) and key component vendors (especially those in the US, like Finisar) could take a whacking.
  • Reply 40 of 64
    RocwurstRocwurst Posts: 60member
    avon b7 said:Which part of 'one' metric didn't you catch?


    Which part of 6 different metrics didn't you catch?
Sign In or Register to comment.