Editorial: China's retaliatory 'unreliable supplier' list will hit Windows, Android the ha...

13

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 64
    RocwurstRocwurst Posts: 60member

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    edited June 2019
  • Reply 42 of 64
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,694member
    Rocwurst said:
    avon b7 said:Which part of 'one' metric didn't you catch?


    Which part of 6 different metrics didn't you catch?
    6? No.

    You are measuring CPU/GPU compute speed (one metric in my book - as I laid out above) using different tools/configurations.

    On battery life you are breaking things down to - web browsing over wifi - and still coming up short. Did I even mention battery life anyway? I could have done but I didn't.

    Do you understand why I said 'beam focussing narrowly' in my original post?

    The point was the Kirin 980 is NOT a year behind the A12 and for the reasons I gave. SoCs are more than CPU/GPU compute.

    What users care about are the other things. How fast apps open, if they lag, the camera and its versatility, signal management, batteries and charging etc. When they run into issues in those areas, they become frustrated. The truth is speed isn't an issue for almost all flagship users.

    As for games and FPS, the situation is the same. How many people have you heard protesting about game performance on a Kirin 980?

    And as a plus for those Kirin 980 users, with GPU turbo, Huawei claimed it was getting higher average FPS on games like Fortnite than iPhone Xs Max.

    I don't know. I don't game. What I do know is that I haven't heard anyone complain about gaming on a Kirin 980 and that's for good reason and it is exactly what I said above. The vast majority of users (on Android or Apple flagships) simply don't have issues.


  • Reply 43 of 64
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,694member
    Rocwurst said:

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    I didn't say Apple hadn't used different foundries, did I? Where did you get that from?

    I said Apple 'relying solely TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk'.

    Point by point:

    Currently TSMC is the sole producer of A12 chips.

    That production is limited to one geographical area.
     
    This is a risk.

    Call it calculated if you wish - but it is a risk. That's one earthquake from disaster and natural disasters have had a huge impact on technology over the years. Precisely an incident that caused world-wide disruption to memory chip production and prices and not long ago either comes to mind. More recently there have been other issues that were potential showstoppers (chemicals and software issues in the case of TSMC) but thankfully  they were addressed in relatively good time. And let's not forget the huge problems Fujitsu had with a subpar chemical batch either. Spreading production out over geographical spaces helps mitigate problems and reduce risks.

    We can now add 'political' to those risks because of what Trump is trying to do and that is reportedly why Huawei asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to the Chinese mainland at the start of this year.

    The Kirin 980 7nm was actually launched before the A12. That's why you found it necessary to add 'commercial' to your statement.

    The Kirin 970 was the first handset chip announced with an NPU (August 2017).

    Apple is swimming in the consumer electronics realm (smartspeakers, phones, earbuds watches etc).

    HiSilicon is literally present in the entire CE and ICT chain. That's why I mentioned Ascend which reaches from its nano implementation up into cloud hardware and everything in between. It also has the ICT chipsets (Tiangang for 5G for example). Kirin chips are also present in a vast array of camera hardware as well as present in TVs and set top boxes, robotics and other areas.

    Apple has nothing even remotely similar to that spread.
    edited June 2019
  • Reply 44 of 64
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,341member
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    I didn't say Apple hadn't used different foundries, did I? Where did you get that from?

    I said Apple 'relying solely TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk'.

    Point by point:

    Currently TSMC is the sole producer of A12 chips.

    That production is limited to one geographical area.
     
    This is a risk.

    Call it calculated if you wish - but it is a risk. That's one earthquake from disaster and natural disasters have had a huge impact on technology over the years. Precisely an incident that caused world-wide disruption to memory chip production and prices and not long ago either comes to mind. More recently there have been other issues that were potential showstoppers (chemicals and software issues in the case of TSMC) but thankfully  they were addressed in relatively good time. And let's not forget the huge problems Fujitsu had with a subpar chemical batch either. Spreading production out over geographical spaces helps mitigate problems and reduce risks.

    We can now add 'political' to those risks because of what Trump is trying to do and that is reportedly why Huawei asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to the Chinese mainland at the start of this year.

    The Kirin 980 7nm was actually launched before the A12. That's why you found it necessary to add 'commercial' to your statement.

    The Kirin 970 was the first handset chip announced with an NPU (August 2017).

    Apple is swimming in the consumer electronics realm (smartspeakers, phones, earbuds watches etc).

    HiSilicon is literally present in the entire CE and ICT chain. That's why I mentioned Ascend which reaches from its nano implementation up into cloud hardware and everything in between. It also has the ICT chipsets (Tiangang for 5G for example). Kirin chips are also present in a vast array of camera hardware as well as present in TVs and set top boxes, robotics and other areas.

    Apple has nothing even remotely similar to that spread.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1132730129099051008.html


    "That industrial espionage and IP theft were a common practice at Huawei will shock no one that has experience working with Chinese factory partners. I’ve witnessed this countless times, and it’s pervasive enough to characterize it as part of the business culture in China."
  • Reply 45 of 64
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    I didn't say Apple hadn't used different foundries, did I? Where did you get that from?

    I said Apple 'relying solely TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk'.

    Point by point:

    Currently TSMC is the sole producer of A12 chips.

    That production is limited to one geographical area.
     
    This is a risk.

    Call it calculated if you wish - but it is a risk. That's one earthquake from disaster and natural disasters have had a huge impact on technology over the years. Precisely an incident that caused world-wide disruption to memory chip production and prices and not long ago either comes to mind. More recently there have been other issues that were potential showstoppers (chemicals and software issues in the case of TSMC) but thankfully  they were addressed in relatively good time. And let's not forget the huge problems Fujitsu had with a subpar chemical batch either. Spreading production out over geographical spaces helps mitigate problems and reduce risks.

    We can now add 'political' to those risks because of what Trump is trying to do and that is reportedly why Huawei asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to the Chinese mainland at the start of this year.

    The Kirin 980 7nm was actually launched before the A12. That's why you found it necessary to add 'commercial' to your statement.

    The Kirin 970 was the first handset chip announced with an NPU (August 2017).

    Apple is swimming in the consumer electronics realm (smartspeakers, phones, earbuds watches etc).

    HiSilicon is literally present in the entire CE and ICT chain. That's why I mentioned Ascend which reaches from its nano implementation up into cloud hardware and everything in between. It also has the ICT chipsets (Tiangang for 5G for example). Kirin chips are also present in a vast array of camera hardware as well as present in TVs and set top boxes, robotics and other areas.

    Apple has nothing even remotely similar to that spread.
    I agree with you on Taiwan and its businesses.
    The harder Trump pushes China, the sooner and more likely they are to take it back.

    Or, they don't even have to take it back.  Just blockade it for awhile.
    Trump could fume and sputter and wear out his Twitter finger.   But there is not much he could do that the American people would stand for.   And neither would the rest of the world support him.

    But, it's doubtful that he would defend them anyway:   He has already been telling Japan that the're on their own -- and South Korea has to be concerned that he's more friendly with North Korea than he is with them.  Essentially:   Trump has no loyalties and feels no need to support prior commitments.

    Taiwan is vulnerable.
  • Reply 46 of 64
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,694member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    I didn't say Apple hadn't used different foundries, did I? Where did you get that from?

    I said Apple 'relying solely TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk'.

    Point by point:

    Currently TSMC is the sole producer of A12 chips.

    That production is limited to one geographical area.
     
    This is a risk.

    Call it calculated if you wish - but it is a risk. That's one earthquake from disaster and natural disasters have had a huge impact on technology over the years. Precisely an incident that caused world-wide disruption to memory chip production and prices and not long ago either comes to mind. More recently there have been other issues that were potential showstoppers (chemicals and software issues in the case of TSMC) but thankfully  they were addressed in relatively good time. And let's not forget the huge problems Fujitsu had with a subpar chemical batch either. Spreading production out over geographical spaces helps mitigate problems and reduce risks.

    We can now add 'political' to those risks because of what Trump is trying to do and that is reportedly why Huawei asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to the Chinese mainland at the start of this year.

    The Kirin 980 7nm was actually launched before the A12. That's why you found it necessary to add 'commercial' to your statement.

    The Kirin 970 was the first handset chip announced with an NPU (August 2017).

    Apple is swimming in the consumer electronics realm (smartspeakers, phones, earbuds watches etc).

    HiSilicon is literally present in the entire CE and ICT chain. That's why I mentioned Ascend which reaches from its nano implementation up into cloud hardware and everything in between. It also has the ICT chipsets (Tiangang for 5G for example). Kirin chips are also present in a vast array of camera hardware as well as present in TVs and set top boxes, robotics and other areas.

    Apple has nothing even remotely similar to that spread.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1132730129099051008.html


    "That industrial espionage and IP theft were a common practice at Huawei will shock no one that has experience working with Chinese factory partners. I’ve witnessed this countless times, and it’s pervasive enough to characterize it as part of the business culture in China."
    I think I reached my limit of WSJ articles until the next window opens but the magic word didn't take long to appear - first paragraph!

    "allege"
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 47 of 64
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,341member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    I didn't say Apple hadn't used different foundries, did I? Where did you get that from?

    I said Apple 'relying solely TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk'.

    Point by point:

    Currently TSMC is the sole producer of A12 chips.

    That production is limited to one geographical area.
     
    This is a risk.

    Call it calculated if you wish - but it is a risk. That's one earthquake from disaster and natural disasters have had a huge impact on technology over the years. Precisely an incident that caused world-wide disruption to memory chip production and prices and not long ago either comes to mind. More recently there have been other issues that were potential showstoppers (chemicals and software issues in the case of TSMC) but thankfully  they were addressed in relatively good time. And let's not forget the huge problems Fujitsu had with a subpar chemical batch either. Spreading production out over geographical spaces helps mitigate problems and reduce risks.

    We can now add 'political' to those risks because of what Trump is trying to do and that is reportedly why Huawei asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to the Chinese mainland at the start of this year.

    The Kirin 980 7nm was actually launched before the A12. That's why you found it necessary to add 'commercial' to your statement.

    The Kirin 970 was the first handset chip announced with an NPU (August 2017).

    Apple is swimming in the consumer electronics realm (smartspeakers, phones, earbuds watches etc).

    HiSilicon is literally present in the entire CE and ICT chain. That's why I mentioned Ascend which reaches from its nano implementation up into cloud hardware and everything in between. It also has the ICT chipsets (Tiangang for 5G for example). Kirin chips are also present in a vast array of camera hardware as well as present in TVs and set top boxes, robotics and other areas.

    Apple has nothing even remotely similar to that spread.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1132730129099051008.html


    "That industrial espionage and IP theft were a common practice at Huawei will shock no one that has experience working with Chinese factory partners. I’ve witnessed this countless times, and it’s pervasive enough to characterize it as part of the business culture in China."
    I think I reached my limit of WSJ articles until the next window opens but the magic word didn't take long to appear - first paragraph!

    "allege"
    This was commentary on the WSJ story from a person that runs foreign companies in China.

    He agrees that Huawei steals IP.

    You need to get out more.
  • Reply 48 of 64
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,694member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    I didn't say Apple hadn't used different foundries, did I? Where did you get that from?

    I said Apple 'relying solely TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk'.

    Point by point:

    Currently TSMC is the sole producer of A12 chips.

    That production is limited to one geographical area.
     
    This is a risk.

    Call it calculated if you wish - but it is a risk. That's one earthquake from disaster and natural disasters have had a huge impact on technology over the years. Precisely an incident that caused world-wide disruption to memory chip production and prices and not long ago either comes to mind. More recently there have been other issues that were potential showstoppers (chemicals and software issues in the case of TSMC) but thankfully  they were addressed in relatively good time. And let's not forget the huge problems Fujitsu had with a subpar chemical batch either. Spreading production out over geographical spaces helps mitigate problems and reduce risks.

    We can now add 'political' to those risks because of what Trump is trying to do and that is reportedly why Huawei asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to the Chinese mainland at the start of this year.

    The Kirin 980 7nm was actually launched before the A12. That's why you found it necessary to add 'commercial' to your statement.

    The Kirin 970 was the first handset chip announced with an NPU (August 2017).

    Apple is swimming in the consumer electronics realm (smartspeakers, phones, earbuds watches etc).

    HiSilicon is literally present in the entire CE and ICT chain. That's why I mentioned Ascend which reaches from its nano implementation up into cloud hardware and everything in between. It also has the ICT chipsets (Tiangang for 5G for example). Kirin chips are also present in a vast array of camera hardware as well as present in TVs and set top boxes, robotics and other areas.

    Apple has nothing even remotely similar to that spread.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1132730129099051008.html


    "That industrial espionage and IP theft were a common practice at Huawei will shock no one that has experience working with Chinese factory partners. I’ve witnessed this countless times, and it’s pervasive enough to characterize it as part of the business culture in China."
    I think I reached my limit of WSJ articles until the next window opens but the magic word didn't take long to appear - first paragraph!

    "allege"
    This was commentary on the WSJ story from a person that runs foreign companies in China.

    He agrees that Huawei steals IP.

    You need to get out more.
    Commenting on a story 'alleging' something still leads to an 'alleged' claim unless of course he can actually - prove - something.

    The question then is this: can he?
    edited June 2019
  • Reply 49 of 64
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,341member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    I didn't say Apple hadn't used different foundries, did I? Where did you get that from?

    I said Apple 'relying solely TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk'.

    Point by point:

    Currently TSMC is the sole producer of A12 chips.

    That production is limited to one geographical area.
     
    This is a risk.

    Call it calculated if you wish - but it is a risk. That's one earthquake from disaster and natural disasters have had a huge impact on technology over the years. Precisely an incident that caused world-wide disruption to memory chip production and prices and not long ago either comes to mind. More recently there have been other issues that were potential showstoppers (chemicals and software issues in the case of TSMC) but thankfully  they were addressed in relatively good time. And let's not forget the huge problems Fujitsu had with a subpar chemical batch either. Spreading production out over geographical spaces helps mitigate problems and reduce risks.

    We can now add 'political' to those risks because of what Trump is trying to do and that is reportedly why Huawei asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to the Chinese mainland at the start of this year.

    The Kirin 980 7nm was actually launched before the A12. That's why you found it necessary to add 'commercial' to your statement.

    The Kirin 970 was the first handset chip announced with an NPU (August 2017).

    Apple is swimming in the consumer electronics realm (smartspeakers, phones, earbuds watches etc).

    HiSilicon is literally present in the entire CE and ICT chain. That's why I mentioned Ascend which reaches from its nano implementation up into cloud hardware and everything in between. It also has the ICT chipsets (Tiangang for 5G for example). Kirin chips are also present in a vast array of camera hardware as well as present in TVs and set top boxes, robotics and other areas.

    Apple has nothing even remotely similar to that spread.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1132730129099051008.html


    "That industrial espionage and IP theft were a common practice at Huawei will shock no one that has experience working with Chinese factory partners. I’ve witnessed this countless times, and it’s pervasive enough to characterize it as part of the business culture in China."
    I think I reached my limit of WSJ articles until the next window opens but the magic word didn't take long to appear - first paragraph!

    "allege"
    This was commentary on the WSJ story from a person that runs foreign companies in China.

    He agrees that Huawei steals IP.

    You need to get out more.
    Commenting on a story 'alleging' something still leads to an 'alleged' claim unless of course he can actually - prove - something.

    The question then is this: can he?
    You haven't been able to prove otherwise, so by definition, you are engaging in belief. I have found a number of accounts that point to Huawei stealing IP, and yet to you, all of it is "alleged" because there was never a "trial".

    What is happening now to Huawei, will get even worse as the U.S. asks for bans on companies providing surveillance technology in the Uirghur Autonomous Region, ie, punishment for human rights violations by the Chinese Government. Huawei will almost certainly be caught up in that as well, demonstrating, yet again, Huawe's close assoication with the Chinese Government and the CCP.

    Okay, here's one going to trial Monday in Texas:

    https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2019/05/23/san-jose-startup-claims-huawei-exec-ordered-ip.html
    edited June 2019
  • Reply 50 of 64
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    I didn't say Apple hadn't used different foundries, did I? Where did you get that from?

    I said Apple 'relying solely TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk'.

    Point by point:

    Currently TSMC is the sole producer of A12 chips.

    That production is limited to one geographical area.
     
    This is a risk.

    Call it calculated if you wish - but it is a risk. That's one earthquake from disaster and natural disasters have had a huge impact on technology over the years. Precisely an incident that caused world-wide disruption to memory chip production and prices and not long ago either comes to mind. More recently there have been other issues that were potential showstoppers (chemicals and software issues in the case of TSMC) but thankfully  they were addressed in relatively good time. And let's not forget the huge problems Fujitsu had with a subpar chemical batch either. Spreading production out over geographical spaces helps mitigate problems and reduce risks.

    We can now add 'political' to those risks because of what Trump is trying to do and that is reportedly why Huawei asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to the Chinese mainland at the start of this year.

    The Kirin 980 7nm was actually launched before the A12. That's why you found it necessary to add 'commercial' to your statement.

    The Kirin 970 was the first handset chip announced with an NPU (August 2017).

    Apple is swimming in the consumer electronics realm (smartspeakers, phones, earbuds watches etc).

    HiSilicon is literally present in the entire CE and ICT chain. That's why I mentioned Ascend which reaches from its nano implementation up into cloud hardware and everything in between. It also has the ICT chipsets (Tiangang for 5G for example). Kirin chips are also present in a vast array of camera hardware as well as present in TVs and set top boxes, robotics and other areas.

    Apple has nothing even remotely similar to that spread.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1132730129099051008.html


    "That industrial espionage and IP theft were a common practice at Huawei will shock no one that has experience working with Chinese factory partners. I’ve witnessed this countless times, and it’s pervasive enough to characterize it as part of the business culture in China."
    I think I reached my limit of WSJ articles until the next window opens but the magic word didn't take long to appear - first paragraph!

    "allege"
    This was commentary on the WSJ story from a person that runs foreign companies in China.

    He agrees that Huawei steals IP.

    You need to get out more.
    Commenting on a story 'alleging' something still leads to an 'alleged' claim unless of course he can actually - prove - something.

    The question then is this: can he?
    You haven't been able to prove otherwise, so by definition, you are engaging in belief. I have found a number of accounts that point to Huawei stealing IP, and yet to you, all of it is "alleged" because there was never a "trial".

    What is happening now to Huawei, will get even worse as the U.S. asks for bans on companies providing surveillance technology in the Uirghur Autonomous Region, ie, punishment for human rights violations by the Chinese Government. Huawei will almost certainly be caught up in that as well, demonstrating, yet again, Huawe's close assoication with the Chinese Government and the CCP.
    "You haven't been able to prove [that Huawei is innocent of Trump's allegations}"
    ... Huh?   It doesn't work that way.

    As for punishing anybody for human rights violations...   Trump's racist, xenophobic and misogynist rants, words and actions sort of take the steam away from any allegations he might choose to make there.   And, then we get to the kids who have died in his cages while seeking asylum...
    ... Trump would be smart to stay away from accusing anybody of human rights violations.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 51 of 64
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,341member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    I didn't say Apple hadn't used different foundries, did I? Where did you get that from?

    I said Apple 'relying solely TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk'.

    Point by point:

    Currently TSMC is the sole producer of A12 chips.

    That production is limited to one geographical area.
     
    This is a risk.

    Call it calculated if you wish - but it is a risk. That's one earthquake from disaster and natural disasters have had a huge impact on technology over the years. Precisely an incident that caused world-wide disruption to memory chip production and prices and not long ago either comes to mind. More recently there have been other issues that were potential showstoppers (chemicals and software issues in the case of TSMC) but thankfully  they were addressed in relatively good time. And let's not forget the huge problems Fujitsu had with a subpar chemical batch either. Spreading production out over geographical spaces helps mitigate problems and reduce risks.

    We can now add 'political' to those risks because of what Trump is trying to do and that is reportedly why Huawei asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to the Chinese mainland at the start of this year.

    The Kirin 980 7nm was actually launched before the A12. That's why you found it necessary to add 'commercial' to your statement.

    The Kirin 970 was the first handset chip announced with an NPU (August 2017).

    Apple is swimming in the consumer electronics realm (smartspeakers, phones, earbuds watches etc).

    HiSilicon is literally present in the entire CE and ICT chain. That's why I mentioned Ascend which reaches from its nano implementation up into cloud hardware and everything in between. It also has the ICT chipsets (Tiangang for 5G for example). Kirin chips are also present in a vast array of camera hardware as well as present in TVs and set top boxes, robotics and other areas.

    Apple has nothing even remotely similar to that spread.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1132730129099051008.html


    "That industrial espionage and IP theft were a common practice at Huawei will shock no one that has experience working with Chinese factory partners. I’ve witnessed this countless times, and it’s pervasive enough to characterize it as part of the business culture in China."
    I think I reached my limit of WSJ articles until the next window opens but the magic word didn't take long to appear - first paragraph!

    "allege"
    This was commentary on the WSJ story from a person that runs foreign companies in China.

    He agrees that Huawei steals IP.

    You need to get out more.
    Commenting on a story 'alleging' something still leads to an 'alleged' claim unless of course he can actually - prove - something.

    The question then is this: can he?
    You haven't been able to prove otherwise, so by definition, you are engaging in belief. I have found a number of accounts that point to Huawei stealing IP, and yet to you, all of it is "alleged" because there was never a "trial".

    What is happening now to Huawei, will get even worse as the U.S. asks for bans on companies providing surveillance technology in the Uirghur Autonomous Region, ie, punishment for human rights violations by the Chinese Government. Huawei will almost certainly be caught up in that as well, demonstrating, yet again, Huawe's close assoication with the Chinese Government and the CCP.
    "You haven't been able to prove [that Huawei is innocent of Trump's allegations}"
    ... Huh?   It doesn't work that way.

    As for punishing anybody for human rights violations...   Trump's racist, xenophobic and misogynist rants, words and actions sort of take the steam away from any allegations he might choose to make there.   And, then we get to the kids who have died in his cages while seeking asylum...
    ... Trump would be smart to stay away from accusing anybody of human rights violations.
    I don't discount that human rights violations that Trump has initiated, but that shouldn't and doesn't let China off the hook for it either.

    As for IP theft, this one is going to trial;

    https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2019/05/23/san-jose-startup-claims-huawei-exec-ordered-ip.html
  • Reply 52 of 64
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,694member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    I didn't say Apple hadn't used different foundries, did I? Where did you get that from?

    I said Apple 'relying solely TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk'.

    Point by point:

    Currently TSMC is the sole producer of A12 chips.

    That production is limited to one geographical area.
     
    This is a risk.

    Call it calculated if you wish - but it is a risk. That's one earthquake from disaster and natural disasters have had a huge impact on technology over the years. Precisely an incident that caused world-wide disruption to memory chip production and prices and not long ago either comes to mind. More recently there have been other issues that were potential showstoppers (chemicals and software issues in the case of TSMC) but thankfully  they were addressed in relatively good time. And let's not forget the huge problems Fujitsu had with a subpar chemical batch either. Spreading production out over geographical spaces helps mitigate problems and reduce risks.

    We can now add 'political' to those risks because of what Trump is trying to do and that is reportedly why Huawei asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to the Chinese mainland at the start of this year.

    The Kirin 980 7nm was actually launched before the A12. That's why you found it necessary to add 'commercial' to your statement.

    The Kirin 970 was the first handset chip announced with an NPU (August 2017).

    Apple is swimming in the consumer electronics realm (smartspeakers, phones, earbuds watches etc).

    HiSilicon is literally present in the entire CE and ICT chain. That's why I mentioned Ascend which reaches from its nano implementation up into cloud hardware and everything in between. It also has the ICT chipsets (Tiangang for 5G for example). Kirin chips are also present in a vast array of camera hardware as well as present in TVs and set top boxes, robotics and other areas.

    Apple has nothing even remotely similar to that spread.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1132730129099051008.html


    "That industrial espionage and IP theft were a common practice at Huawei will shock no one that has experience working with Chinese factory partners. I’ve witnessed this countless times, and it’s pervasive enough to characterize it as part of the business culture in China."
    I think I reached my limit of WSJ articles until the next window opens but the magic word didn't take long to appear - first paragraph!

    "allege"
    This was commentary on the WSJ story from a person that runs foreign companies in China.

    He agrees that Huawei steals IP.

    You need to get out more.
    Commenting on a story 'alleging' something still leads to an 'alleged' claim unless of course he can actually - prove - something.

    The question then is this: can he?
    You haven't been able to prove otherwise, so by definition, you are engaging in belief. I have found a number of accounts that point to Huawei stealing IP, and yet to you, all of it is "alleged" because there was never a "trial".

    What is happening now to Huawei, will get even worse as the U.S. asks for bans on companies providing surveillance technology in the Uirghur Autonomous Region, ie, punishment for human rights violations by the Chinese Government. Huawei will almost certainly be caught up in that as well, demonstrating, yet again, Huawe's close assoication with the Chinese Government and the CCP.
    I don't need to prove anything because I haven't made the same kind of claims as you.

    I've tried to limit myself to observing evidence (of wrong doing in this case). I mean real evidence - not the 'allegations' you persistently pass off as evidence.

    On the underlying reasons for what is happening, I said from the very start that it was protectionism IMO and gave plenty of reasons to support it. Are there any level headed commentators out there that disagree with me? Trump himself has gone on record many times to admit what he is doing is protectionism.

    It is now taken as a fact that 'national security' is a ruse. There are thousands of opinion pieces from experts tearing Trump's arguments apart. In fact Trump's own words destroy his claims.

    As for getting worse for Huawei, I don't know. What I do know is that the US is going to see the entire world reducing its core dependencies on US technology as a result of this and those plans will be accelerated to 'ASAP status' now.

    "When you look at some of these electronics companies and how they’re having to rebuild their supply chains because of these tariffs, these are ... supply chains that were designed to create jobs in the United States,” Hickenlooper said. “And now those jobs are probably moving away, moving out of the country forever."

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/30/john-hickenlooper-china-was-at-the-table-before-trumps-tariffs.html

    Trump overstepped the point of no return and the damage might not appear for a few years but it is coming and that is provable. After the Mexico escalation, governments have no reason to even take his word for anything.

    The EU is now showing a greater interest in China too as it mutters discontent with the way Trump operates. The Chinese vice president was in Germany just this week. Soon Trump will be in the UK to bully and threaten the British but the lure of Chinese business is already on the table and no one in the EU really thinks Trump will reach a second term. He will go as he came - an annoyance and massive error.  If by some strange turn of events he does get re-elected he will continue to be an annoyance as China take centre stage on trade.
    edited June 2019 GeorgeBMacgatorguy
  • Reply 53 of 64
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,341member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    I didn't say Apple hadn't used different foundries, did I? Where did you get that from?

    I said Apple 'relying solely TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk'.

    Point by point:

    Currently TSMC is the sole producer of A12 chips.

    That production is limited to one geographical area.
     
    This is a risk.

    Call it calculated if you wish - but it is a risk. That's one earthquake from disaster and natural disasters have had a huge impact on technology over the years. Precisely an incident that caused world-wide disruption to memory chip production and prices and not long ago either comes to mind. More recently there have been other issues that were potential showstoppers (chemicals and software issues in the case of TSMC) but thankfully  they were addressed in relatively good time. And let's not forget the huge problems Fujitsu had with a subpar chemical batch either. Spreading production out over geographical spaces helps mitigate problems and reduce risks.

    We can now add 'political' to those risks because of what Trump is trying to do and that is reportedly why Huawei asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to the Chinese mainland at the start of this year.

    The Kirin 980 7nm was actually launched before the A12. That's why you found it necessary to add 'commercial' to your statement.

    The Kirin 970 was the first handset chip announced with an NPU (August 2017).

    Apple is swimming in the consumer electronics realm (smartspeakers, phones, earbuds watches etc).

    HiSilicon is literally present in the entire CE and ICT chain. That's why I mentioned Ascend which reaches from its nano implementation up into cloud hardware and everything in between. It also has the ICT chipsets (Tiangang for 5G for example). Kirin chips are also present in a vast array of camera hardware as well as present in TVs and set top boxes, robotics and other areas.

    Apple has nothing even remotely similar to that spread.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1132730129099051008.html


    "That industrial espionage and IP theft were a common practice at Huawei will shock no one that has experience working with Chinese factory partners. I’ve witnessed this countless times, and it’s pervasive enough to characterize it as part of the business culture in China."
    I think I reached my limit of WSJ articles until the next window opens but the magic word didn't take long to appear - first paragraph!

    "allege"
    This was commentary on the WSJ story from a person that runs foreign companies in China.

    He agrees that Huawei steals IP.

    You need to get out more.
    Commenting on a story 'alleging' something still leads to an 'alleged' claim unless of course he can actually - prove - something.

    The question then is this: can he?
    You haven't been able to prove otherwise, so by definition, you are engaging in belief. I have found a number of accounts that point to Huawei stealing IP, and yet to you, all of it is "alleged" because there was never a "trial".

    What is happening now to Huawei, will get even worse as the U.S. asks for bans on companies providing surveillance technology in the Uirghur Autonomous Region, ie, punishment for human rights violations by the Chinese Government. Huawei will almost certainly be caught up in that as well, demonstrating, yet again, Huawe's close assoication with the Chinese Government and the CCP.
    I don't need to prove anything because I haven't made the same kind of claims as you.

    I've tried to limit myself to observing evidence of wrong doing. I mean real evidence - not the allegations you persistently pass off as evidence.

    On the underlying reasons for what is happening, I said from the very start that it was protectionism IMO and gave plenty of reasons to support it. Are there any level headed commentators out there that disagree with me? Trump himself has gone on record many times to admit what he is doing is protectionism.

    It is now taken as a fact that national security is a ruse. There are thousands of opinion pieces from experts tearing Trump's arguments apart. In fact Trump's own words destroy his claims.

    As for getting worse for Huawei, I don't know. What I do know is that the US is going to see the entire world reducing its core dependencies on US technology and those plans will be accelerated to 'ASAP status'.

    Trump overstepped the point of no return and the damage might not appear for a few years but it is coming and that is provable. After the Mexico escalation, governments have no reason to even take his word for anything. The EU is now showing a greater interest in China too as it mutters discontent with the way Trump operates. The Chinese vice president was in Germany just this week. Soon Trump will be in the UK to bully and threaten the British but the lure of Chinese business is already on the table and no one in the EU really thinks Trump will reach a second term. He will go as he came - an annoyance.  If by some strange turn of events he does get re-elected he will continue to be an annoyance as China take centre stage on trade.
    I don't disagree that Trump is a loose cannon, but at this point in time, it will be necessary for the Republican Senators to rein him in, This is because of the structure of the U.S. Congress and Senate, with lightly populated states having outsized political power in the Senate;, ie, every state gets two Senators, each with six year terms, and no term limits. Otherwise, wait for the election of 2020, or even Impeachment, which is almost certain to be blocked by Republican Senators.

    Still, even with this, I don't expect the EU to embrace China as you suggest. The EU is certainly wary of the U.S. as well as China, and Russia, but when all is said and done, the U.S. is no more fucked up than Britain is with Brexit. The U.S. has historically been a booster of the EU, so I don't see a long term change in that.

    In the meantime, I don't expect that the U.S. will roll back anything on Huawei Telecom, as that is confirmed to be a National Security risk by the Australians, as I have previously posted links to. It's also hard to see Huawei as only a protectionism issue for the U.S. merely because the U.S. allowed our telecom assets to be sold off years ago. As for Huawei handsets, they were never banned except in use on U.S. Military or Intelligence installations, no different that China's police towards foreign equipment on their installations.

    Still, the best you can hope for, is that Trump rolls back some of the Huawei bans should a Trade Agreement be reached. In the meantime, the tariffs to Mexican imports are a significantly greater issue to the U.S. economy than the China Tariffs, as many U.S. Corporations moved operations from China to Mexico as an assumed safe haven.

    Either way, Huawei is still a State Owned Entrerpirse as far as the West is concerned, at least until Huawei shows some transparency to prove otherwise, which is unlikely.

    There's now a story out by The Telegraph to the effect that Huawei has been "cheating" during a 5G test for the British. I don't have an account for The Telegraph, but I assume that there will be more information forthcoming on twitter an other social media.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/06/01/china-rigs-5g-test-favour-huawei/

    If true, this would be very bad for Huawei. 
    edited June 2019
  • Reply 54 of 64
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    I didn't say Apple hadn't used different foundries, did I? Where did you get that from?

    I said Apple 'relying solely TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk'.

    Point by point:

    Currently TSMC is the sole producer of A12 chips.

    That production is limited to one geographical area.
     
    This is a risk.

    Call it calculated if you wish - but it is a risk. That's one earthquake from disaster and natural disasters have had a huge impact on technology over the years. Precisely an incident that caused world-wide disruption to memory chip production and prices and not long ago either comes to mind. More recently there have been other issues that were potential showstoppers (chemicals and software issues in the case of TSMC) but thankfully  they were addressed in relatively good time. And let's not forget the huge problems Fujitsu had with a subpar chemical batch either. Spreading production out over geographical spaces helps mitigate problems and reduce risks.

    We can now add 'political' to those risks because of what Trump is trying to do and that is reportedly why Huawei asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to the Chinese mainland at the start of this year.

    The Kirin 980 7nm was actually launched before the A12. That's why you found it necessary to add 'commercial' to your statement.

    The Kirin 970 was the first handset chip announced with an NPU (August 2017).

    Apple is swimming in the consumer electronics realm (smartspeakers, phones, earbuds watches etc).

    HiSilicon is literally present in the entire CE and ICT chain. That's why I mentioned Ascend which reaches from its nano implementation up into cloud hardware and everything in between. It also has the ICT chipsets (Tiangang for 5G for example). Kirin chips are also present in a vast array of camera hardware as well as present in TVs and set top boxes, robotics and other areas.

    Apple has nothing even remotely similar to that spread.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1132730129099051008.html


    "That industrial espionage and IP theft were a common practice at Huawei will shock no one that has experience working with Chinese factory partners. I’ve witnessed this countless times, and it’s pervasive enough to characterize it as part of the business culture in China."
    I think I reached my limit of WSJ articles until the next window opens but the magic word didn't take long to appear - first paragraph!

    "allege"
    This was commentary on the WSJ story from a person that runs foreign companies in China.

    He agrees that Huawei steals IP.

    You need to get out more.
    Commenting on a story 'alleging' something still leads to an 'alleged' claim unless of course he can actually - prove - something.

    The question then is this: can he?
    You haven't been able to prove otherwise, so by definition, you are engaging in belief. I have found a number of accounts that point to Huawei stealing IP, and yet to you, all of it is "alleged" because there was never a "trial".

    What is happening now to Huawei, will get even worse as the U.S. asks for bans on companies providing surveillance technology in the Uirghur Autonomous Region, ie, punishment for human rights violations by the Chinese Government. Huawei will almost certainly be caught up in that as well, demonstrating, yet again, Huawe's close assoication with the Chinese Government and the CCP.
    "You haven't been able to prove [that Huawei is innocent of Trump's allegations}"
    ... Huh?   It doesn't work that way.

    As for punishing anybody for human rights violations...   Trump's racist, xenophobic and misogynist rants, words and actions sort of take the steam away from any allegations he might choose to make there.   And, then we get to the kids who have died in his cages while seeking asylum...
    ... Trump would be smart to stay away from accusing anybody of human rights violations.
    I don't discount that human rights violations that Trump has initiated, but that shouldn't and doesn't let China off the hook for it either.

    As for IP theft, this one is going to trial;

    https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2019/05/23/san-jose-startup-claims-huawei-exec-ordered-ip.html
    Yeh, true...
    But it's still not a reason (at least not a valid one) for justifying any part of Trump's war on China -- particularly when it involves sacrificing U.S. reputation and credibility to do it.

  • Reply 55 of 64
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,341member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    I didn't say Apple hadn't used different foundries, did I? Where did you get that from?

    I said Apple 'relying solely TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk'.

    Point by point:

    Currently TSMC is the sole producer of A12 chips.

    That production is limited to one geographical area.
     
    This is a risk.

    Call it calculated if you wish - but it is a risk. That's one earthquake from disaster and natural disasters have had a huge impact on technology over the years. Precisely an incident that caused world-wide disruption to memory chip production and prices and not long ago either comes to mind. More recently there have been other issues that were potential showstoppers (chemicals and software issues in the case of TSMC) but thankfully  they were addressed in relatively good time. And let's not forget the huge problems Fujitsu had with a subpar chemical batch either. Spreading production out over geographical spaces helps mitigate problems and reduce risks.

    We can now add 'political' to those risks because of what Trump is trying to do and that is reportedly why Huawei asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to the Chinese mainland at the start of this year.

    The Kirin 980 7nm was actually launched before the A12. That's why you found it necessary to add 'commercial' to your statement.

    The Kirin 970 was the first handset chip announced with an NPU (August 2017).

    Apple is swimming in the consumer electronics realm (smartspeakers, phones, earbuds watches etc).

    HiSilicon is literally present in the entire CE and ICT chain. That's why I mentioned Ascend which reaches from its nano implementation up into cloud hardware and everything in between. It also has the ICT chipsets (Tiangang for 5G for example). Kirin chips are also present in a vast array of camera hardware as well as present in TVs and set top boxes, robotics and other areas.

    Apple has nothing even remotely similar to that spread.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1132730129099051008.html


    "That industrial espionage and IP theft were a common practice at Huawei will shock no one that has experience working with Chinese factory partners. I’ve witnessed this countless times, and it’s pervasive enough to characterize it as part of the business culture in China."
    I think I reached my limit of WSJ articles until the next window opens but the magic word didn't take long to appear - first paragraph!

    "allege"
    This was commentary on the WSJ story from a person that runs foreign companies in China.

    He agrees that Huawei steals IP.

    You need to get out more.
    Commenting on a story 'alleging' something still leads to an 'alleged' claim unless of course he can actually - prove - something.

    The question then is this: can he?
    You haven't been able to prove otherwise, so by definition, you are engaging in belief. I have found a number of accounts that point to Huawei stealing IP, and yet to you, all of it is "alleged" because there was never a "trial".

    What is happening now to Huawei, will get even worse as the U.S. asks for bans on companies providing surveillance technology in the Uirghur Autonomous Region, ie, punishment for human rights violations by the Chinese Government. Huawei will almost certainly be caught up in that as well, demonstrating, yet again, Huawe's close assoication with the Chinese Government and the CCP.
    "You haven't been able to prove [that Huawei is innocent of Trump's allegations}"
    ... Huh?   It doesn't work that way.

    As for punishing anybody for human rights violations...   Trump's racist, xenophobic and misogynist rants, words and actions sort of take the steam away from any allegations he might choose to make there.   And, then we get to the kids who have died in his cages while seeking asylum...
    ... Trump would be smart to stay away from accusing anybody of human rights violations.
    I don't discount that human rights violations that Trump has initiated, but that shouldn't and doesn't let China off the hook for it either.

    As for IP theft, this one is going to trial;

    https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2019/05/23/san-jose-startup-claims-huawei-exec-ordered-ip.html
    Yeh, true...
    But it's still not a reason (at least not a valid one) for justifying any part of Trump's war on China -- particularly when it involves sacrificing U.S. reputation and credibility to do it.

    Have you considered that maybe China reneged on their negotiated promises to actually do something about IP theft and forced IP transfer? That's certainly what the story was.

    Do I need to post a link to that, again?
  • Reply 56 of 64
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    I didn't say Apple hadn't used different foundries, did I? Where did you get that from?

    I said Apple 'relying solely TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk'.

    Point by point:

    Currently TSMC is the sole producer of A12 chips.

    That production is limited to one geographical area.
     
    This is a risk.

    Call it calculated if you wish - but it is a risk. That's one earthquake from disaster and natural disasters have had a huge impact on technology over the years. Precisely an incident that caused world-wide disruption to memory chip production and prices and not long ago either comes to mind. More recently there have been other issues that were potential showstoppers (chemicals and software issues in the case of TSMC) but thankfully  they were addressed in relatively good time. And let's not forget the huge problems Fujitsu had with a subpar chemical batch either. Spreading production out over geographical spaces helps mitigate problems and reduce risks.

    We can now add 'political' to those risks because of what Trump is trying to do and that is reportedly why Huawei asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to the Chinese mainland at the start of this year.

    The Kirin 980 7nm was actually launched before the A12. That's why you found it necessary to add 'commercial' to your statement.

    The Kirin 970 was the first handset chip announced with an NPU (August 2017).

    Apple is swimming in the consumer electronics realm (smartspeakers, phones, earbuds watches etc).

    HiSilicon is literally present in the entire CE and ICT chain. That's why I mentioned Ascend which reaches from its nano implementation up into cloud hardware and everything in between. It also has the ICT chipsets (Tiangang for 5G for example). Kirin chips are also present in a vast array of camera hardware as well as present in TVs and set top boxes, robotics and other areas.

    Apple has nothing even remotely similar to that spread.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1132730129099051008.html


    "That industrial espionage and IP theft were a common practice at Huawei will shock no one that has experience working with Chinese factory partners. I’ve witnessed this countless times, and it’s pervasive enough to characterize it as part of the business culture in China."
    I think I reached my limit of WSJ articles until the next window opens but the magic word didn't take long to appear - first paragraph!

    "allege"
    This was commentary on the WSJ story from a person that runs foreign companies in China.

    He agrees that Huawei steals IP.

    You need to get out more.
    Commenting on a story 'alleging' something still leads to an 'alleged' claim unless of course he can actually - prove - something.

    The question then is this: can he?
    You haven't been able to prove otherwise, so by definition, you are engaging in belief. I have found a number of accounts that point to Huawei stealing IP, and yet to you, all of it is "alleged" because there was never a "trial".

    What is happening now to Huawei, will get even worse as the U.S. asks for bans on companies providing surveillance technology in the Uirghur Autonomous Region, ie, punishment for human rights violations by the Chinese Government. Huawei will almost certainly be caught up in that as well, demonstrating, yet again, Huawe's close assoication with the Chinese Government and the CCP.
    I don't need to prove anything because I haven't made the same kind of claims as you.

    I've tried to limit myself to observing evidence of wrong doing. I mean real evidence - not the allegations you persistently pass off as evidence.

    On the underlying reasons for what is happening, I said from the very start that it was protectionism IMO and gave plenty of reasons to support it. Are there any level headed commentators out there that disagree with me? Trump himself has gone on record many times to admit what he is doing is protectionism.

    It is now taken as a fact that national security is a ruse. There are thousands of opinion pieces from experts tearing Trump's arguments apart. In fact Trump's own words destroy his claims.

    As for getting worse for Huawei, I don't know. What I do know is that the US is going to see the entire world reducing its core dependencies on US technology and those plans will be accelerated to 'ASAP status'.

    Trump overstepped the point of no return and the damage might not appear for a few years but it is coming and that is provable. After the Mexico escalation, governments have no reason to even take his word for anything. The EU is now showing a greater interest in China too as it mutters discontent with the way Trump operates. The Chinese vice president was in Germany just this week. Soon Trump will be in the UK to bully and threaten the British but the lure of Chinese business is already on the table and no one in the EU really thinks Trump will reach a second term. He will go as he came - an annoyance.  If by some strange turn of events he does get re-elected he will continue to be an annoyance as China take centre stage on trade.
    I don't disagree that Trump is a loose cannon, but at this point in time, it will be necessary for the Republican Senators to rein him in, This is because of the structure of the U.S. Congress and Senate, with lightly populated states having outsized political power in the Senate;, ie, every state gets two Senators, each with six year terms, and no term limits. Otherwise, wait for the election of 2020, or even Impeachment, which is almost certain to be blocked by Republican Senators.

    Still, even with this, I don't expect the EU to embrace China as you suggest. The EU is certainly wary of the U.S. as well as China, and Russia, but when all is said and done, the U.S. is no more fucked up than Britain is with Brexit. The U.S. has historically been a booster of the EU, so I don't see a long term change in that.

    In the meantime, I don't expect that the U.S. will roll back anything on Huawei Telecom, as that is confirmed to be a National Security risk by the Australians, as I have previously posted links to. It's also hard to see Huawei as only a protectionism issue for the U.S. merely because the U.S. allowed our telecom assets to be sold off years ago. As for Huawei handsets, they were never banned except in use on U.S. Military or Intelligence installations, no different that China's police towards foreign equipment on their installations.

    Still, the best you can hope for, is that Trump rolls back some of the Huawei bans should a Trade Agreement be reached. In the meantime, the tariffs to Mexican imports are a significantly greater issue to the U.S. economy than the China Tariffs, as many U.S. Corporations moved operations from China to Mexico as an assumed safe haven.

    Either way, Huawei is still a State Owned Entrerpirse as far as the West is concerned, at least until Huawei shows some transparency to prove otherwise, which is unlikely.

    There's now a story out by The Telegraph to the effect that Huawei has been "cheating" during a 5G test for the British. I don't have an account for The Telegraph, but I assume that there will be more information forthcoming on twitter an other social media.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/06/01/china-rigs-5g-test-favour-huawei/

    If true, this would be very bad for Huawei. 
    Both Trump's wars on China and Mexico will be bad for the U.S.
    The right likes to think of China as a developing country dependent on the U.S.   Actually, as I've pointed out, they are the 2nd largest economy and catching up to us fast -- both economically and militarily (at least on a regional basis).

    But aside, from the direct ramifications, U.S. reputation and credibility has been badly damaged.  While the world knows that this is Trump doing these crazy things and not the U.S. it is still the 2nd time this century that we have let a crazy president push us and the world into senseless, dangerous, precarious situations based on lies and fear mongering.

    But the serious damage will occur when the developed world starts moving away from our financial sphere of influence to form more reliable alliances and relationships -- because, for the most part, that is now our core of power.   We no longer have basic industry to power us through.

    As Bush pointed out in one of his few intelligent comments:  You want to spend your political capital wisely.
    avon b7
  • Reply 57 of 64
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,341member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    I didn't say Apple hadn't used different foundries, did I? Where did you get that from?

    I said Apple 'relying solely TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk'.

    Point by point:

    Currently TSMC is the sole producer of A12 chips.

    That production is limited to one geographical area.
     
    This is a risk.

    Call it calculated if you wish - but it is a risk. That's one earthquake from disaster and natural disasters have had a huge impact on technology over the years. Precisely an incident that caused world-wide disruption to memory chip production and prices and not long ago either comes to mind. More recently there have been other issues that were potential showstoppers (chemicals and software issues in the case of TSMC) but thankfully  they were addressed in relatively good time. And let's not forget the huge problems Fujitsu had with a subpar chemical batch either. Spreading production out over geographical spaces helps mitigate problems and reduce risks.

    We can now add 'political' to those risks because of what Trump is trying to do and that is reportedly why Huawei asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to the Chinese mainland at the start of this year.

    The Kirin 980 7nm was actually launched before the A12. That's why you found it necessary to add 'commercial' to your statement.

    The Kirin 970 was the first handset chip announced with an NPU (August 2017).

    Apple is swimming in the consumer electronics realm (smartspeakers, phones, earbuds watches etc).

    HiSilicon is literally present in the entire CE and ICT chain. That's why I mentioned Ascend which reaches from its nano implementation up into cloud hardware and everything in between. It also has the ICT chipsets (Tiangang for 5G for example). Kirin chips are also present in a vast array of camera hardware as well as present in TVs and set top boxes, robotics and other areas.

    Apple has nothing even remotely similar to that spread.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1132730129099051008.html


    "That industrial espionage and IP theft were a common practice at Huawei will shock no one that has experience working with Chinese factory partners. I’ve witnessed this countless times, and it’s pervasive enough to characterize it as part of the business culture in China."
    I think I reached my limit of WSJ articles until the next window opens but the magic word didn't take long to appear - first paragraph!

    "allege"
    This was commentary on the WSJ story from a person that runs foreign companies in China.

    He agrees that Huawei steals IP.

    You need to get out more.
    Commenting on a story 'alleging' something still leads to an 'alleged' claim unless of course he can actually - prove - something.

    The question then is this: can he?
    You haven't been able to prove otherwise, so by definition, you are engaging in belief. I have found a number of accounts that point to Huawei stealing IP, and yet to you, all of it is "alleged" because there was never a "trial".

    What is happening now to Huawei, will get even worse as the U.S. asks for bans on companies providing surveillance technology in the Uirghur Autonomous Region, ie, punishment for human rights violations by the Chinese Government. Huawei will almost certainly be caught up in that as well, demonstrating, yet again, Huawe's close assoication with the Chinese Government and the CCP.
    I don't need to prove anything because I haven't made the same kind of claims as you.

    I've tried to limit myself to observing evidence of wrong doing. I mean real evidence - not the allegations you persistently pass off as evidence.

    On the underlying reasons for what is happening, I said from the very start that it was protectionism IMO and gave plenty of reasons to support it. Are there any level headed commentators out there that disagree with me? Trump himself has gone on record many times to admit what he is doing is protectionism.

    It is now taken as a fact that national security is a ruse. There are thousands of opinion pieces from experts tearing Trump's arguments apart. In fact Trump's own words destroy his claims.

    As for getting worse for Huawei, I don't know. What I do know is that the US is going to see the entire world reducing its core dependencies on US technology and those plans will be accelerated to 'ASAP status'.

    Trump overstepped the point of no return and the damage might not appear for a few years but it is coming and that is provable. After the Mexico escalation, governments have no reason to even take his word for anything. The EU is now showing a greater interest in China too as it mutters discontent with the way Trump operates. The Chinese vice president was in Germany just this week. Soon Trump will be in the UK to bully and threaten the British but the lure of Chinese business is already on the table and no one in the EU really thinks Trump will reach a second term. He will go as he came - an annoyance.  If by some strange turn of events he does get re-elected he will continue to be an annoyance as China take centre stage on trade.
    I don't disagree that Trump is a loose cannon, but at this point in time, it will be necessary for the Republican Senators to rein him in, This is because of the structure of the U.S. Congress and Senate, with lightly populated states having outsized political power in the Senate;, ie, every state gets two Senators, each with six year terms, and no term limits. Otherwise, wait for the election of 2020, or even Impeachment, which is almost certain to be blocked by Republican Senators.

    Still, even with this, I don't expect the EU to embrace China as you suggest. The EU is certainly wary of the U.S. as well as China, and Russia, but when all is said and done, the U.S. is no more fucked up than Britain is with Brexit. The U.S. has historically been a booster of the EU, so I don't see a long term change in that.

    In the meantime, I don't expect that the U.S. will roll back anything on Huawei Telecom, as that is confirmed to be a National Security risk by the Australians, as I have previously posted links to. It's also hard to see Huawei as only a protectionism issue for the U.S. merely because the U.S. allowed our telecom assets to be sold off years ago. As for Huawei handsets, they were never banned except in use on U.S. Military or Intelligence installations, no different that China's police towards foreign equipment on their installations.

    Still, the best you can hope for, is that Trump rolls back some of the Huawei bans should a Trade Agreement be reached. In the meantime, the tariffs to Mexican imports are a significantly greater issue to the U.S. economy than the China Tariffs, as many U.S. Corporations moved operations from China to Mexico as an assumed safe haven.

    Either way, Huawei is still a State Owned Entrerpirse as far as the West is concerned, at least until Huawei shows some transparency to prove otherwise, which is unlikely.

    There's now a story out by The Telegraph to the effect that Huawei has been "cheating" during a 5G test for the British. I don't have an account for The Telegraph, but I assume that there will be more information forthcoming on twitter an other social media.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/06/01/china-rigs-5g-test-favour-huawei/

    If true, this would be very bad for Huawei. 
    Both Trump's wars on China and Mexico will be bad for the U.S.
    The right likes to think of China as a developing country dependent on the U.S.   Actually, as I've pointed out, they are the 2nd largest economy and catching up to us fast -- both economically and militarily (at least on a regional basis).

    But aside, from the direct ramifications, U.S. reputation and credibility has been badly damaged.  While the world knows that this is Trump doing these crazy things and not the U.S. it is still the 2nd time this century that we have let a crazy president push us and the world into senseless, dangerous, precarious situations based on lies and fear mongering.

    But the serious damage will occur when the developed world starts moving away from our financial sphere of influence to form more reliable alliances and relationships -- because, for the most part, that is now our core of power.   We no longer have basic industry to power us through.

    As Bush pointed out in one of his few intelligent comments:  You want to spend your political capital wisely.
    You seem to imply that the "world" is able to form more reliable alliances and relationships, yet Brexit proves that false. If anything, and given what is at worst, a temporary glitch in the U.S. governance, the world requires a country like the U.S. to establish the status quo for the Global Market to work properly. If Trump gets reelected, and if there is no trade agreement with China at that time, expect a bifurcation in the world around Liberal economies, with further fraying of the EU, and Authoritarian economies led by China, and to a lesser extent, Russia.

    Without U.S. leadership, it will only get worse, not better.
    edited June 2019
  • Reply 58 of 64
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Rocwurst said:

    avon b7 said:
    Apple relying solely on TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk. Huawei too but Huawei uses other foundries, has other foundries begging for new business and has been rumoured to have asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to mainland China. 
    ....
    AFAIK Apple has nothing even similar to what Huawei is doing through the Ascend line of chipsets and associated frameworks.
    Ahem, Apple has used different foundries such as Samsung in the past for its A9 SoC for example.

    Also, Apple does indeed have a variety of it's own silicon in addition to the main A12 SoC (the first commercially available piece of 7nm silicon) such as the Neural Engine:

    The A12 Bionic includes dedicated neural network hardware that Apple calls a "Next-generation Neural Engine."This neural network hardware has eight cores and can perform up to 5 trillion 8-bit operations per second.

    Then there is the industry-leading dual core S4 SoC in the Apple Watch 4.
    I didn't say Apple hadn't used different foundries, did I? Where did you get that from?

    I said Apple 'relying solely TSMC in Taiwan remains a huge strategic risk'.

    Point by point:

    Currently TSMC is the sole producer of A12 chips.

    That production is limited to one geographical area.
     
    This is a risk.

    Call it calculated if you wish - but it is a risk. That's one earthquake from disaster and natural disasters have had a huge impact on technology over the years. Precisely an incident that caused world-wide disruption to memory chip production and prices and not long ago either comes to mind. More recently there have been other issues that were potential showstoppers (chemicals and software issues in the case of TSMC) but thankfully  they were addressed in relatively good time. And let's not forget the huge problems Fujitsu had with a subpar chemical batch either. Spreading production out over geographical spaces helps mitigate problems and reduce risks.

    We can now add 'political' to those risks because of what Trump is trying to do and that is reportedly why Huawei asked TSMC to move HiSilicon production to the Chinese mainland at the start of this year.

    The Kirin 980 7nm was actually launched before the A12. That's why you found it necessary to add 'commercial' to your statement.

    The Kirin 970 was the first handset chip announced with an NPU (August 2017).

    Apple is swimming in the consumer electronics realm (smartspeakers, phones, earbuds watches etc).

    HiSilicon is literally present in the entire CE and ICT chain. That's why I mentioned Ascend which reaches from its nano implementation up into cloud hardware and everything in between. It also has the ICT chipsets (Tiangang for 5G for example). Kirin chips are also present in a vast array of camera hardware as well as present in TVs and set top boxes, robotics and other areas.

    Apple has nothing even remotely similar to that spread.
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1132730129099051008.html


    "That industrial espionage and IP theft were a common practice at Huawei will shock no one that has experience working with Chinese factory partners. I’ve witnessed this countless times, and it’s pervasive enough to characterize it as part of the business culture in China."
    I think I reached my limit of WSJ articles until the next window opens but the magic word didn't take long to appear - first paragraph!

    "allege"
    This was commentary on the WSJ story from a person that runs foreign companies in China.

    He agrees that Huawei steals IP.

    You need to get out more.
    Commenting on a story 'alleging' something still leads to an 'alleged' claim unless of course he can actually - prove - something.

    The question then is this: can he?
    You haven't been able to prove otherwise, so by definition, you are engaging in belief. I have found a number of accounts that point to Huawei stealing IP, and yet to you, all of it is "alleged" because there was never a "trial".

    What is happening now to Huawei, will get even worse as the U.S. asks for bans on companies providing surveillance technology in the Uirghur Autonomous Region, ie, punishment for human rights violations by the Chinese Government. Huawei will almost certainly be caught up in that as well, demonstrating, yet again, Huawe's close assoication with the Chinese Government and the CCP.
    I don't need to prove anything because I haven't made the same kind of claims as you.

    I've tried to limit myself to observing evidence of wrong doing. I mean real evidence - not the allegations you persistently pass off as evidence.

    On the underlying reasons for what is happening, I said from the very start that it was protectionism IMO and gave plenty of reasons to support it. Are there any level headed commentators out there that disagree with me? Trump himself has gone on record many times to admit what he is doing is protectionism.

    It is now taken as a fact that national security is a ruse. There are thousands of opinion pieces from experts tearing Trump's arguments apart. In fact Trump's own words destroy his claims.

    As for getting worse for Huawei, I don't know. What I do know is that the US is going to see the entire world reducing its core dependencies on US technology and those plans will be accelerated to 'ASAP status'.

    Trump overstepped the point of no return and the damage might not appear for a few years but it is coming and that is provable. After the Mexico escalation, governments have no reason to even take his word for anything. The EU is now showing a greater interest in China too as it mutters discontent with the way Trump operates. The Chinese vice president was in Germany just this week. Soon Trump will be in the UK to bully and threaten the British but the lure of Chinese business is already on the table and no one in the EU really thinks Trump will reach a second term. He will go as he came - an annoyance.  If by some strange turn of events he does get re-elected he will continue to be an annoyance as China take centre stage on trade.
    I don't disagree that Trump is a loose cannon, but at this point in time, it will be necessary for the Republican Senators to rein him in, This is because of the structure of the U.S. Congress and Senate, with lightly populated states having outsized political power in the Senate;, ie, every state gets two Senators, each with six year terms, and no term limits. Otherwise, wait for the election of 2020, or even Impeachment, which is almost certain to be blocked by Republican Senators.

    Still, even with this, I don't expect the EU to embrace China as you suggest. The EU is certainly wary of the U.S. as well as China, and Russia, but when all is said and done, the U.S. is no more fucked up than Britain is with Brexit. The U.S. has historically been a booster of the EU, so I don't see a long term change in that.

    In the meantime, I don't expect that the U.S. will roll back anything on Huawei Telecom, as that is confirmed to be a National Security risk by the Australians, as I have previously posted links to. It's also hard to see Huawei as only a protectionism issue for the U.S. merely because the U.S. allowed our telecom assets to be sold off years ago. As for Huawei handsets, they were never banned except in use on U.S. Military or Intelligence installations, no different that China's police towards foreign equipment on their installations.

    Still, the best you can hope for, is that Trump rolls back some of the Huawei bans should a Trade Agreement be reached. In the meantime, the tariffs to Mexican imports are a significantly greater issue to the U.S. economy than the China Tariffs, as many U.S. Corporations moved operations from China to Mexico as an assumed safe haven.

    Either way, Huawei is still a State Owned Entrerpirse as far as the West is concerned, at least until Huawei shows some transparency to prove otherwise, which is unlikely.

    There's now a story out by The Telegraph to the effect that Huawei has been "cheating" during a 5G test for the British. I don't have an account for The Telegraph, but I assume that there will be more information forthcoming on twitter an other social media.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/06/01/china-rigs-5g-test-favour-huawei/

    If true, this would be very bad for Huawei. 
    Both Trump's wars on China and Mexico will be bad for the U.S.
    The right likes to think of China as a developing country dependent on the U.S.   Actually, as I've pointed out, they are the 2nd largest economy and catching up to us fast -- both economically and militarily (at least on a regional basis).

    But aside, from the direct ramifications, U.S. reputation and credibility has been badly damaged.  While the world knows that this is Trump doing these crazy things and not the U.S. it is still the 2nd time this century that we have let a crazy president push us and the world into senseless, dangerous, precarious situations based on lies and fear mongering.

    But the serious damage will occur when the developed world starts moving away from our financial sphere of influence to form more reliable alliances and relationships -- because, for the most part, that is now our core of power.   We no longer have basic industry to power us through.

    As Bush pointed out in one of his few intelligent comments:  You want to spend your political capital wisely.
    You seem to imply that the "world" is able to form more reliable alliances and relationships, yet Brexit proves that false. If anything, and given what is at worst, a temporary glitch in the U.S. governance, the world requires a country like the U.S. to establish the status quo for the Global Market to work properly. If Trump gets reelected, and if there is no trade agreement with China at that time, expect a bifurcation in the world around Liberal economies, with further fraying of the EU, and Authoritarian economies led by China, and to a lesser extent, Russia.

    Without U.S. leadership, it will only get worse, not better.
    Yes, the world does need the U.S. as both peace keeper (aka "World's Policeman") and as ballast to maintain financial stability.  But that assumes that the U.S. remains reliable and behaves responsibly.   Trump has turned that on its head:   His main claim to fame is breaking and undermining treaties and agreements and putting U.S. currency (the heart of our financial clout) at risk with a debt fed rally for his own political gain.

    So, the U.S. will remain in its position as the hub the world turns on only so long as it behaves responsibly and it is in the world's interest to keep it there.  But they won't put up with being dominated, attacked and undermined for long.

    As for Brexit it proved little except to demonstrate the power of a far right nationalist propaganda campaign topped off with a Russian disinformation campaign.   Currently the right is desperately trying to block a second referendum based on facts rather than propaganda -- which would kill their cherished nationalist Brexit.  And Trump is headed over there trying to promote his cooky, far right nationalist buddies.
  • Reply 59 of 64
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    It looks like Trump's war hawks have put us on the edge of war with China over Taiwan.
    For decades, China has looked the other way as the U.S. took a hands-off, neutral approach to Taiwan which China sees as a renegade province.  Both countries kept their hands off the little island.

    But, as U.S. hawks threaten, China spells out exactly what will happen if the U.S. tries to pull Taiwan over into its sphere of influence.  They didn't quite say:  "We will sink your silly boats", but came real close to it.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-asia-security/china-says-war-with-u-s-would-be-a-disaster-as-tensions-mount-idUSKCN1T300X

    So, what happens to Apple and the rest of the U.S. electronics industries if China is pushed to close off or take back Taiwain?   Again:   another unnecessary, irresponsible, provocative move by Trump to destabilize things and play to his "U S A !" chanting base.

    So, are Trump and his war hawks running out of control?
    Or, is Trump merely trying to establish a distraction from the congressional investigations?
    This certainly has nothing to do with benefiting the U.S., China or the world.

    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 60 of 64
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,694member
    A quick incision on Brexit as I know the subject inside out.

    The people were fed lies by the leave campaign and the leave campaign used dubious methods to scrape a victory out of everything.

    The whole referendum was a shambles from beginning to end. Right from the act of parliament that governed it through to the voter limitations.

    Sixteen and seventeen year olds were denied a say. These are the people with a lot to lose from Brexit. They were allowed to vote in the Scottish independence referendum. Many expats were denied a say and (of those) who live within the EU (with arguably more to lose than anyone alse) it would have been enough to secure a remain victory.

    When Theresa May speaks of the will of the people she is much mistaken because so many were not allowed to participate.

    Another aspect is that the referendum was advisory (not binding) which has brought its own problems and no provision was made for a virtual split decision. Such wholesale upheaval should have been provided for in a 60/40 spread for example.

    With poor acts of parliament surrounding the vote and so many people (with funding) prepared to lie at every turn on the campaign trail it wasn't hard to fill the heads of certain groups of people with anti EU sentiment. People who have reaped the rewards of forming part of the EU for decades and not even been aware of it. Something which led some very poor areas which had been completely regenerated using EU money to vote Brexit!

    Ignorance is bliss but with 'comfort' comes laziness and the 'vote leave campaigners' had a field day with the ignorant people of Britain.

    My own family, with the sole exception of my brother swallowed the lies right up to the vote. They all very much regret their decision and are very bitter towards anyone who represented the leave campaign.

    Seeing what has happened since and what we know about the leave campaign itself I very much doubt Leave would win a second referendum. If EU expats and 16/17 year olds are given a vote, I'm sure Remain would earn itself a healthy winning margin.

    I just wonder if Trump voters will experience a similar turnaround when it come to voting next year.
    edited June 2019 muthuk_vanalingamrinosaur
Sign In or Register to comment.