Apple investigating move of up to 30% of production out of China

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 46
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,333member
    JWSC said:
    dewme said:
    The so-called trade war between the US and China is a proxy war for a larger social, economic, and political struggle between the US and China. Playing games with moving manufacturing from one economically exploitable source to another economically exploitable source will do nothing to improve the job prospects of US workers aspiring to attain middle class living standards. However it will ensure a steady source for inexpensive consumer goods, keep shareholders happy, and allow those who are currently thriving to continue to do so. Finally, none of this addresses the greatest threat to jobs worldwide - automation.
    Automation is the advancement of technology.  It can be seen as either a threat or an opportunity depending on your point of view.  The reality is as it has always been for thousands of years.  Without a proper education you will be shoved around by the winds of change instead of being the one who makes the wind blow.
    Totally agree about automation. If you're in a position to choose it's always better to be on the opportunity side of the automation equation. While it's not a one for one trade-off, automation is largely about job transformation. The greatest threat is really to those who lack mobility and the ability or opportunity to transform their skill set to meet the new demands posed by automation. Unfortunately the transformation process is not a lossless one and people do get left behind for a myriad of reasons, most of which no politician wants to face head-on.
    FileMakerFellerGG1
  • Reply 22 of 46
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Just a thought...
    What is triggering all this for Trump is the knowledge that China is the world's #2 economy but catching up to the U.S. quickly and most economists predict it will soon become the #1 economy and the U.S. will be #2.   That's accepted fact.   It is not conjecture.

    But many blame the current state and current problems on "globalization" where U.S. companies took U.S. production and jobs and shipped them overseas in search of greater profits.

    While that is true, it is not the truth -- because that wasn't a cause, it was a response.

    In the 60's the U.S. was king of the world in almost every area.  But then, drip by drip, the Japanese started taking away our biggest, proudest industries:   Steel, Cars and electronics.   They didn't do it with chicanery.   They simply produced better products at lower costs.  Eventually U.S. industry was FORCED to move their means of production out of the U.S. -- it wasn't a search for profits.   it was as SEARCH FOR SURVIVAL.

    Basically, Darwinism prevailed -- survival of the fittest.  They either migrated to more fertile lands or they died.

    Nothing has changed since then.  Will Trump's tariffs work?  Of course not!  We tried the same thing back then.  Obviously it didn't work.

    Today Globalization is fact.  It cannot be undone.  Trump can't roll us back to the 60's.

    Instead of tariffs, threats and bluster, we should focus on becoming the best.   Then jobs will migrate here.
    edited June 2019 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 23 of 46
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    nht said:

    The truth is:  The U.S. comprises less than a third of the world's GDP and is very replaceable by the other 2/3's. 

    Lol...try maintaining your standard of living 1/3 of your income missing.  "Very replaceable"?

    The truth is when our economy takes a hit so does everyone else's in a big way.  Remove the US from the equation and the global economy would collapse for years.  It's like removing the 3rd leg from a 3 legged stool because while the US is only 24% of the Global GDP it impacts EVERYONE else.  A hard Brexit will impact a lot of countries...with the EU as one the bigger losers...and the UK is relatively small.


    LOL, no...
    Of course it won't happen all at once.   it'll happen business by business like a balloon with a slow leak.   You'll hardly notice the pain.

    That's the silly thing about all these free marketers clamoring to clamp down on our competition.   They forget that the world has alternatives.  And, just as Apple can move production out of China, the rest of the world can -- and will -- move it from the U.S.   And, it's not just hard goods, but but FX and finance/banking.

    Nobody likes dealing with an untrustworthy, unreliable partner.   To think that the world turns around the U.S. is a fatal error.
    FileMakerFellermuthuk_vanalingamavon b7jony0
  • Reply 24 of 46
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 2,075member
    The ramifications of trade wars are just beginning to appear:   Apple moving production to less efficient / less reliable sources while China is doing the same by moving away from the U.S. and embracing other, more reliable entities.

    The potential winner of these things is in no way clear or obvious.
    The loser:   US!  We pay!

    The whole U.S. trade war philosophy is based on the assumption that the U.S. is irreplaceable in the world market -- that the U.S. is the center of the world.  unfortunately, that is no more true than the belief that the earth is the center of the solar system.  

    The truth is:  The U.S. comprises less than a third of the world's GDP and is very replaceable by the other 2/3's. 
    We maintain our strength by being the best -- not by being a bully.   The world won't fight us.   It will just smile and move on.
    An absolutely spot on take.

    The present US administration is throwing around sanctions (economic warfare) like confetti and sooner or later the US will start to get covered in the blowback. The indiscriminate use of sanctions has hurt an number of allies in the UK and Europe so where once the UK and Europe would be counted upon to be in lockstep with US policy many are asking what's the quid pro quo here?

    The Chinese genie is well and truly out of the bottle thanks to the Western neoliberals who shipped Western manufacturing jobs to China to maximise their  profits and shareholder value. The world, thanks to these profiteers, at a pivot point and the rise of China to the wealthiest nation on earth is set in stone. No amount of US protectionist sanctions will stop China becoming the dominant economic force in the world, the only question is how long with current US allies hang around especially if they're the ones getting damaged by US sanctions and unable to conduct their own free trade free from US interference.

    Ask small town America whose internet providers used a lot of Huawei infrastructure if they're better off when they're paying vastly higher internet fees because companies have to use 'approved' suppliers costing 5x times as much for less good equipment. This is a taste of what's to come especially if the trade war continues. China cutting off rare earths will be devastating to Western economies not just the US.

    Google have just had a eureka moment when they realised Huawei were much further along the path with their own OS which is going to be made Open Source and are now questioning the Huawei ban. Customers use Google because they have to not because they want to, Google is a horrible company and everyone with a braincell knows it. Google can't rely upon customer loyalty so there's every chance the Huawei OS will be a player in the market and what happens if Samsung gets on board with the OS? There could be some interesting times ahead.

    The Huawei CEO is a smart chap, he openly says the sanctions have hurt but they will alter their business model and come again. Huawei will concentrate more on new markets where they'll out compete US companies that can't be protected by sanctions and a de facto 2 speed world, the fast lane constructed by China and the slow lane with expensive for the rest.

    The US's huge nuclear stock pile and fleets of warships floating round the globe cannot be used to make consumers buy inferior products so this Trump strategy is a moment of national self harm.
    Where did you read all that crap.  The People's Daily.
    jdwairnerd
  • Reply 25 of 46
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    Good news if true. I was saying that Apple should do this many years ago, long before 2016 even happened.

    China has long been a problem for the US, for Apple and for the world.
    AppleExposed
  • Reply 26 of 46
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 2,075member
    sirozha said:
    You were forewarned, Mr. Cook, by President Elect in a private meeting at the end of 2016. Why did you wait for 2 years to form such a committee? By now, you would have been ready to move production out of China, logistics genius. 
    One thing that I haven't seen or heard talked about is where will the new MAC PRO be assembled.    I believe that it is now done in Texas.    If Apple shuts that down and moves to a foreign country there will be hell to pay from Trump.   The FoxConn plant in WI is looking more and more like a bust.    Trump's going to blame Cook and roast Apple 
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 27 of 46
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    dewme said:
    The so-called trade war between the US and China is a proxy war for a larger social, economic, and political struggle between the US and China. Playing games with moving manufacturing from one economically exploitable source to another economically exploitable source will do nothing to improve the job prospects of US workers aspiring to attain middle class living standards. However it will ensure a steady source for inexpensive consumer goods, keep shareholders happy, and allow those who are currently thriving to continue to do so. Finally, none of this addresses the greatest threat to jobs worldwide - automation.
    The greatest threat to jobs is political. Central planning and authoritarianism results in economic collapse. Capitalism makes sure markets function. Automation plays a part of that efficiency and it ensures there will be continuous improvement driven by competition.
    edited June 2019
  • Reply 28 of 46
    JWSC said:
    dewme said:
    previous quote
    Automation is the advancement of technology.  It can be seen as either a threat or an opportunity depending on your point of view.  The reality is as it has always been for thousands of years.  Without a proper education you will be shoved around by the winds of change instead of being the one who makes the wind blow.
    While it may FEEL like thousands of years, it has only been 200 years since the beginning of the industrial revolution. We’ve gone so far in 200 years that no one questioned your “thousands of years” statement...
    AppleExposed
  • Reply 29 of 46
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    dewme said:
    The so-called trade war between the US and China is a proxy war for a larger social, economic, and political struggle between the US and China. Playing games with moving manufacturing from one economically exploitable source to another economically exploitable source will do nothing to improve the job prospects of US workers aspiring to attain middle class living standards. However it will ensure a steady source for inexpensive consumer goods, keep shareholders happy, and allow those who are currently thriving to continue to do so. Finally, none of this addresses the greatest threat to jobs worldwide - automation.
    The greatest threat to jobs is political. Central planning and authoritarianism results in economic collapse. Capitalism makes sure markets function. Automation plays a part of that efficiency and it ensures there will be continuous improvement driven by competition.
    Yeh, that's the central core of free marketers....
    How did that work for ya in 2008?    Even Greenspan said:  "I don't understand how the Free Markets could fail!"  They turned the banking system over to the banksters on the premise that free markets couldn't fail.   But they did.

    The truth is:  any system based on extremes (100% this, or 100% that, based on an unbending ideology) will eventually fail.
    It's why most developed and developing systems are adopting a mixture of both capitalism and socialism -- and that's true of both the U.S. and China.
    lostkiwi
  • Reply 30 of 46
    airnerdairnerd Posts: 693member
    Just a thought...
    What is triggering all this for Trump is the knowledge that China is the world's #2 economy but catching up to the U.S. quickly and most economists predict it will soon become the #1 economy and the U.S. will be #2.   That's accepted fact.   It is not conjecture.

    But many blame the current state and current problems on "globalization" where U.S. companies took U.S. production and jobs and shipped them overseas in search of greater profits.

    While that is true, it is not the truth -- because that wasn't a cause, it was a response.

    In the 60's the U.S. was king of the world in almost every area.  But then, drip by drip, the Japanese started taking away our biggest, proudest industries:   Steel, Cars and electronics.   They didn't do it with chicanery.   They simply produced better products at lower costs.  Eventually U.S. industry was FORCED to move their means of production out of the U.S. -- it wasn't a search for profits.   it was as SEARCH FOR SURVIVAL.

    Basically, Darwinism prevailed -- survival of the fittest.  They either migrated to more fertile lands or they died.

    Nothing has changed since then.  Will Trump's tariffs work?  Of course not!  We tried the same thing back then.  Obviously it didn't work.

    Today Globalization is fact.  It cannot be undone.  Trump can't roll us back to the 60's.

    Instead of tariffs, threats and bluster, we should focus on becoming the best.   Then jobs will migrate here.
    Can't stay the best for long when another key player in the game is cheating by artificially keeping their currency deflated in order to be able to buy imports cheaper than they sell exports.  
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 31 of 46
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    airnerd said:
    Just a thought...
    What is triggering all this for Trump is the knowledge that China is the world's #2 economy but catching up to the U.S. quickly and most economists predict it will soon become the #1 economy and the U.S. will be #2.   That's accepted fact.   It is not conjecture.

    But many blame the current state and current problems on "globalization" where U.S. companies took U.S. production and jobs and shipped them overseas in search of greater profits.

    While that is true, it is not the truth -- because that wasn't a cause, it was a response.

    In the 60's the U.S. was king of the world in almost every area.  But then, drip by drip, the Japanese started taking away our biggest, proudest industries:   Steel, Cars and electronics.   They didn't do it with chicanery.   They simply produced better products at lower costs.  Eventually U.S. industry was FORCED to move their means of production out of the U.S. -- it wasn't a search for profits.   it was as SEARCH FOR SURVIVAL.

    Basically, Darwinism prevailed -- survival of the fittest.  They either migrated to more fertile lands or they died.

    Nothing has changed since then.  Will Trump's tariffs work?  Of course not!  We tried the same thing back then.  Obviously it didn't work.

    Today Globalization is fact.  It cannot be undone.  Trump can't roll us back to the 60's.

    Instead of tariffs, threats and bluster, we should focus on becoming the best.   Then jobs will migrate here.
    Can't stay the best for long when another key player in the game is cheating by artificially keeping their currency deflated in order to be able to buy imports cheaper than they sell exports.  
    Yeh, that's today's story line.  Trump is jumping to that after his other stories got blown away.

    But strangely, it was only a couple weeks ago that even Trump said that wasn't true.
    That's what happens when you start with the agenda and then back into the facts to support it -- the "facts" keep changing.
  • Reply 32 of 46
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member
    Apple's letter to the US Trade Representative concerning the potential effect of tariffs on its products 
     https://twitter.com/SteveKopack/status/1141712995434868737
    edited June 2019
  • Reply 33 of 46
    zoetmbzoetmb Posts: 2,654member
    dewme said:
    The so-called trade war between the US and China is a proxy war for a larger social, economic, and political struggle between the US and China. Playing games with moving manufacturing from one economically exploitable source to another economically exploitable source will do nothing to improve the job prospects of US workers aspiring to attain middle class living standards. However it will ensure a steady source for inexpensive consumer goods, keep shareholders happy, and allow those who are currently thriving to continue to do so. Finally, none of this addresses the greatest threat to jobs worldwide - automation.
    Yes, automation is key.  In the summer of 2017, the U.S. achieved the highest level of manufacturing output that it ever had.   (I don't know what the levels have been since then.)   But because so much is automated today, it didn't result in huge manufacturing job gains.

    Manufacturing will always move to where labor and land costs are cheapest.   So it's never going to return in a massive way to the U.S.   As Chinese workers start to get paid more, it will eventually start moving out of China regardless of tariffs and to India, Vietnam, Thailand, etc.   And 30 years from now, we'll see movement to countries in Africa.

    Personally, I think products should be manufactured close to the markets in which they're sold, so that workers get the benefits of those sales, but that's a fantasy that's never going to happen in the modern world.    

    The trade war with China is a proxy war for nothing except Trump's ego and simplistic thinking.   He still thinks that tariffs are taxes imposed upon foreign manufacturers that are paid to the Federal Government and that they won't raise the cost of raw materials and consumer goods in the U.S. and thereby affect the profitability of American companies, which in turn could lead to lower employment levels in those companies.   It just "sounds good" and it's red meat for his base. 

    At the same time that many Americans support Trump's trade war, they won't pay the prices to buy U.S.-made products.   If those $8 t-shirts in WalMart jumped to $25, which is around what they'd be if they were manufactured in the U.S., they'd freak out.   Those $400 TV sets would probably be closer to $2000, even with highly automated factories.    In 1966, I bought a 2-channel high quality U.S. made hi-fi receiver for $400.  That's $3221 in current dollars.  It's not that there aren't receivers today that sell for that kind of money, but they're the equivalent of five or more 1966 receivers with all the additional amp channels and other functionality.   

    When the original 128K Mac was released in 1984, it was $2495 (monochrome 9" monitor, one floppy drive, no hard disk, 128k memory).  That's $6270 in current dollars.   Now there have been technological leaps since then that would lower the price regardless of where it was manufactured, but if a Mac was completely manufactured in the U.S., the price would certainly be closer to that $6270 than to $2495.   Which is weird in a way because while American workers make more than Chinese factory workers, their wages certainly aren't great and don't approach anything near what tech workers in offices are making.   But would we be willing to pay such a price?   If we really cared about American factory workers, we would, but I think most Americans wouldn't because they care more about saving money.
  • Reply 34 of 46
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    zoetmb said:
    dewme said:
    The so-called trade war between the US and China is a proxy war for a larger social, economic, and political struggle between the US and China. Playing games with moving manufacturing from one economically exploitable source to another economically exploitable source will do nothing to improve the job prospects of US workers aspiring to attain middle class living standards. However it will ensure a steady source for inexpensive consumer goods, keep shareholders happy, and allow those who are currently thriving to continue to do so. Finally, none of this addresses the greatest threat to jobs worldwide - automation.
    Yes, automation is key.  In the summer of 2017, the U.S. achieved the highest level of manufacturing output that it ever had.   (I don't know what the levels have been since then.)   But because so much is automated today, it didn't result in huge manufacturing job gains.

    Manufacturing will always move to where labor and land costs are cheapest.   So it's never going to return in a massive way to the U.S.   As Chinese workers start to get paid more, it will eventually start moving out of China regardless of tariffs and to India, Vietnam, Thailand, etc.   And 30 years from now, we'll see movement to countries in Africa.

    Personally, I think products should be manufactured close to the markets in which they're sold, so that workers get the benefits of those sales, but that's a fantasy that's never going to happen in the modern world.    

    The trade war with China is a proxy war for nothing except Trump's ego and simplistic thinking.   He still thinks that tariffs are taxes imposed upon foreign manufacturers that are paid to the Federal Government and that they won't raise the cost of raw materials and consumer goods in the U.S. and thereby affect the profitability of American companies, which in turn could lead to lower employment levels in those companies.   It just "sounds good" and it's red meat for his base. 

    At the same time that many Americans support Trump's trade war, they won't pay the prices to buy U.S.-made products.   If those $8 t-shirts in WalMart jumped to $25, which is around what they'd be if they were manufactured in the U.S., they'd freak out.   Those $400 TV sets would probably be closer to $2000, even with highly automated factories.    In 1966, I bought a 2-channel high quality U.S. made hi-fi receiver for $400.  That's $3221 in current dollars.  It's not that there aren't receivers today that sell for that kind of money, but they're the equivalent of five or more 1966 receivers with all the additional amp channels and other functionality.   

    When the original 128K Mac was released in 1984, it was $2495 (monochrome 9" monitor, one floppy drive, no hard disk, 128k memory).  That's $6270 in current dollars.   Now there have been technological leaps since then that would lower the price regardless of where it was manufactured, but if a Mac was completely manufactured in the U.S., the price would certainly be closer to that $6270 than to $2495.   Which is weird in a way because while American workers make more than Chinese factory workers, their wages certainly aren't great and don't approach anything near what tech workers in offices are making.   But would we be willing to pay such a price?   If we really cared about American factory workers, we would, but I think most Americans wouldn't because they care more about saving money.
    China’s corrupt business practices are the basis for their economic growth. I’d be OK with the near destruction of their economy up until they change their ways. They need the US far more than the US needs China.
    edited June 2019 AppleExposed
  • Reply 35 of 46
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    zoetmb said:
    dewme said:
    The so-called trade war between the US and China is a proxy war for a larger social, economic, and political struggle between the US and China. Playing games with moving manufacturing from one economically exploitable source to another economically exploitable source will do nothing to improve the job prospects of US workers aspiring to attain middle class living standards. However it will ensure a steady source for inexpensive consumer goods, keep shareholders happy, and allow those who are currently thriving to continue to do so. Finally, none of this addresses the greatest threat to jobs worldwide - automation.
    Yes, automation is key.  In the summer of 2017, the U.S. achieved the highest level of manufacturing output that it ever had.   (I don't know what the levels have been since then.)   But because so much is automated today, it didn't result in huge manufacturing job gains.

    Manufacturing will always move to where labor and land costs are cheapest.   So it's never going to return in a massive way to the U.S.   As Chinese workers start to get paid more, it will eventually start moving out of China regardless of tariffs and to India, Vietnam, Thailand, etc.   And 30 years from now, we'll see movement to countries in Africa.

    Personally, I think products should be manufactured close to the markets in which they're sold, so that workers get the benefits of those sales, but that's a fantasy that's never going to happen in the modern world.    

    The trade war with China is a proxy war for nothing except Trump's ego and simplistic thinking.   He still thinks that tariffs are taxes imposed upon foreign manufacturers that are paid to the Federal Government and that they won't raise the cost of raw materials and consumer goods in the U.S. and thereby affect the profitability of American companies, which in turn could lead to lower employment levels in those companies.   It just "sounds good" and it's red meat for his base. 

    At the same time that many Americans support Trump's trade war, they won't pay the prices to buy U.S.-made products.   If those $8 t-shirts in WalMart jumped to $25, which is around what they'd be if they were manufactured in the U.S., they'd freak out.   Those $400 TV sets would probably be closer to $2000, even with highly automated factories.    In 1966, I bought a 2-channel high quality U.S. made hi-fi receiver for $400.  That's $3221 in current dollars.  It's not that there aren't receivers today that sell for that kind of money, but they're the equivalent of five or more 1966 receivers with all the additional amp channels and other functionality.   

    When the original 128K Mac was released in 1984, it was $2495 (monochrome 9" monitor, one floppy drive, no hard disk, 128k memory).  That's $6270 in current dollars.   Now there have been technological leaps since then that would lower the price regardless of where it was manufactured, but if a Mac was completely manufactured in the U.S., the price would certainly be closer to that $6270 than to $2495.   Which is weird in a way because while American workers make more than Chinese factory workers, their wages certainly aren't great and don't approach anything near what tech workers in offices are making.   But would we be willing to pay such a price?   If we really cared about American factory workers, we would, but I think most Americans wouldn't because they care more about saving money.
    China’s corrupt business practices are the basis for their economic growth. I’d be OK with the near destruction of their economy up until they change their ways. They need the US far more than the US needs China.
    Do you really think all those corporations moved there and are moving there because of the "corrupt business practices".
    More likely, they moved there because things got done better, quicker and cheaper.

    It's called free market competition.
    And now that the U.S. got beat at its own game its calling foul!
  • Reply 36 of 46
    sirozha said:
    You were forewarned, Mr. Cook, by President Elect in a private meeting at the end of 2016. Why did you wait for 2 years to form such a committee? By now, you would have been ready to move production out of China, logistics genius. 
    Apple is a secretive company. I have no doubt they made contingency plans long ago in case it happened. They’re not going tell the world about it. Keyboard second guessers are always commenting about what Apple should be doing and what they’re not doing, but Apple almost always shows through their product announcements and business decisions that they were always making plans to solve problems.

    I wouldn’t rely purely on one, secret-sourced story about your knowledge of why Apple is f—- up. If we did, we would all believe that Bloomberg “hack” story.

    Constant talk about how Apple is not prepared for smart phone saturation but all along they were building billion dollar companies within their own billion dollar company on services and the smart watch to soften the blow.  People still don’t get it.
  • Reply 37 of 46
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Umm, this is interesting:   Apple's chief manufacturing partner, Foxconn, says there are no plans to move production out of China.

    Liu is in the process of taking control of Foxconn from Gou who will be running for president of Taiwan.

    "Liu, 63, has led Foxconn’s nascent semiconductor business, dubbed the S sub-group, since 2017. He gained great trust since joining as a special assistant to Gou in 2007, a source told Reuters in May.

    After the AGM, he told Reuters that the company had no plan to increase production capacity outside China at the moment and that he was not aware of client requests for Foxconn to shift part of its production outside China."

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-foxconn-chairman/foxconn-picks-chip-unit-head-for-chairman-as-gou-seeks-taiwan-presidency-idUSKCN1TM04Y

    (Interestingly, a side story points out that Gou's run for president could be weighed down by his close ties to China's (communist) leadership -- much like the criticism Trump levels against Huawei's founder and leader:
    "His election bid might be weighed down by his ties to a Chinese leadership that refuses to renounce the use of force to unify with self-ruled Taiwan it considers a wayward province, analysts have said.")




  • Reply 38 of 46
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,203member
    zoetmb said:
    dewme said:
    The so-called trade war between the US and China is a proxy war for a larger social, economic, and political struggle between the US and China. Playing games with moving manufacturing from one economically exploitable source to another economically exploitable source will do nothing to improve the job prospects of US workers aspiring to attain middle class living standards. However it will ensure a steady source for inexpensive consumer goods, keep shareholders happy, and allow those who are currently thriving to continue to do so. Finally, none of this addresses the greatest threat to jobs worldwide - automation.
    Yes, automation is key.  In the summer of 2017, the U.S. achieved the highest level of manufacturing output that it ever had.   (I don't know what the levels have been since then.)   But because so much is automated today, it didn't result in huge manufacturing job gains.

    Manufacturing will always move to where labor and land costs are cheapest.   So it's never going to return in a massive way to the U.S.   As Chinese workers start to get paid more, it will eventually start moving out of China regardless of tariffs and to India, Vietnam, Thailand, etc.   And 30 years from now, we'll see movement to countries in Africa.

    Personally, I think products should be manufactured close to the markets in which they're sold, so that workers get the benefits of those sales, but that's a fantasy that's never going to happen in the modern world.    

    The trade war with China is a proxy war for nothing except Trump's ego and simplistic thinking.   He still thinks that tariffs are taxes imposed upon foreign manufacturers that are paid to the Federal Government and that they won't raise the cost of raw materials and consumer goods in the U.S. and thereby affect the profitability of American companies, which in turn could lead to lower employment levels in those companies.   It just "sounds good" and it's red meat for his base. 

    At the same time that many Americans support Trump's trade war, they won't pay the prices to buy U.S.-made products.   If those $8 t-shirts in WalMart jumped to $25, which is around what they'd be if they were manufactured in the U.S., they'd freak out.   Those $400 TV sets would probably be closer to $2000, even with highly automated factories.    In 1966, I bought a 2-channel high quality U.S. made hi-fi receiver for $400.  That's $3221 in current dollars.  It's not that there aren't receivers today that sell for that kind of money, but they're the equivalent of five or more 1966 receivers with all the additional amp channels and other functionality.   

    When the original 128K Mac was released in 1984, it was $2495 (monochrome 9" monitor, one floppy drive, no hard disk, 128k memory).  That's $6270 in current dollars.   Now there have been technological leaps since then that would lower the price regardless of where it was manufactured, but if a Mac was completely manufactured in the U.S., the price would certainly be closer to that $6270 than to $2495.   Which is weird in a way because while American workers make more than Chinese factory workers, their wages certainly aren't great and don't approach anything near what tech workers in offices are making.   But would we be willing to pay such a price?   If we really cared about American factory workers, we would, but I think most Americans wouldn't because they care more about saving money.
    China’s corrupt business practices are the basis for their economic growth. I’d be OK with the near destruction of their economy up until they change their ways. They need the US far more than the US needs China.

    Wow.  Really?!!

    It’s more likely that the human entrepreneurial spirit led to China’s economic growth, despite government corruption, not because of it.  It is true that the PLA generals who head many businesses have used government assets to enrich themselves and the state backed companies they oversee.  This type of corruption and its distorting effects on the free market system should not be understated and needs to be confronted head on.

    But it is a misreading of facts on the ground to imply that all Chinese businesses came to be because of the government.  Just as in the US, economic activity thrives best when the government gets out of the way.

    To wish for the destruction of the Chinese economy is a bit misanthropic.  To strive for a level playing field ought to be our goal.  Strong open free trade between all counties will lift all boats.

  • Reply 39 of 46
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    JWSC said:
    zoetmb said:
    dewme said:
    The so-called trade war between the US and China is a proxy war for a larger social, economic, and political struggle between the US and China. Playing games with moving manufacturing from one economically exploitable source to another economically exploitable source will do nothing to improve the job prospects of US workers aspiring to attain middle class living standards. However it will ensure a steady source for inexpensive consumer goods, keep shareholders happy, and allow those who are currently thriving to continue to do so. Finally, none of this addresses the greatest threat to jobs worldwide - automation.
    Yes, automation is key.  In the summer of 2017, the U.S. achieved the highest level of manufacturing output that it ever had.   (I don't know what the levels have been since then.)   But because so much is automated today, it didn't result in huge manufacturing job gains.

    Manufacturing will always move to where labor and land costs are cheapest.   So it's never going to return in a massive way to the U.S.   As Chinese workers start to get paid more, it will eventually start moving out of China regardless of tariffs and to India, Vietnam, Thailand, etc.   And 30 years from now, we'll see movement to countries in Africa.

    Personally, I think products should be manufactured close to the markets in which they're sold, so that workers get the benefits of those sales, but that's a fantasy that's never going to happen in the modern world.    

    The trade war with China is a proxy war for nothing except Trump's ego and simplistic thinking.   He still thinks that tariffs are taxes imposed upon foreign manufacturers that are paid to the Federal Government and that they won't raise the cost of raw materials and consumer goods in the U.S. and thereby affect the profitability of American companies, which in turn could lead to lower employment levels in those companies.   It just "sounds good" and it's red meat for his base. 

    At the same time that many Americans support Trump's trade war, they won't pay the prices to buy U.S.-made products.   If those $8 t-shirts in WalMart jumped to $25, which is around what they'd be if they were manufactured in the U.S., they'd freak out.   Those $400 TV sets would probably be closer to $2000, even with highly automated factories.    In 1966, I bought a 2-channel high quality U.S. made hi-fi receiver for $400.  That's $3221 in current dollars.  It's not that there aren't receivers today that sell for that kind of money, but they're the equivalent of five or more 1966 receivers with all the additional amp channels and other functionality.   

    When the original 128K Mac was released in 1984, it was $2495 (monochrome 9" monitor, one floppy drive, no hard disk, 128k memory).  That's $6270 in current dollars.   Now there have been technological leaps since then that would lower the price regardless of where it was manufactured, but if a Mac was completely manufactured in the U.S., the price would certainly be closer to that $6270 than to $2495.   Which is weird in a way because while American workers make more than Chinese factory workers, their wages certainly aren't great and don't approach anything near what tech workers in offices are making.   But would we be willing to pay such a price?   If we really cared about American factory workers, we would, but I think most Americans wouldn't because they care more about saving money.
    China’s corrupt business practices are the basis for their economic growth. I’d be OK with the near destruction of their economy up until they change their ways. They need the US far more than the US needs China.

    Wow.  Really?!!

    It’s more likely that the human entrepreneurial spirit led to China’s economic growth, despite government corruption, not because of it.  It is true that the PLA generals who head many businesses have used government assets to enrich themselves and the state backed companies they oversee.  This type of corruption and its distorting effects on the free market system should not be understated and needs to be confronted head on.

    But it is a misreading of facts on the ground to imply that all Chinese businesses came to be because of the government.  Just as in the US, economic activity thrives best when the government gets out of the way.

    To wish for the destruction of the Chinese economy is a bit misanthropic.  To strive for a level playing field ought to be our goal.  Strong open free trade between all counties will lift all boats.

    I’m a big believer in the work ethic and creativity of the Chinese people (especially as they attempt to do better for themselves in a system which has the deck so stacked against them). Don’t confuse my support and appreciation for individuals with my opposition to the policies of government.
  • Reply 40 of 46
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    JWSC said:
    zoetmb said:
    dewme said:
    The so-called trade war between the US and China is a proxy war for a larger social, economic, and political struggle between the US and China. Playing games with moving manufacturing from one economically exploitable source to another economically exploitable source will do nothing to improve the job prospects of US workers aspiring to attain middle class living standards. However it will ensure a steady source for inexpensive consumer goods, keep shareholders happy, and allow those who are currently thriving to continue to do so. Finally, none of this addresses the greatest threat to jobs worldwide - automation.
    Yes, automation is key.  In the summer of 2017, the U.S. achieved the highest level of manufacturing output that it ever had.   (I don't know what the levels have been since then.)   But because so much is automated today, it didn't result in huge manufacturing job gains.

    Manufacturing will always move to where labor and land costs are cheapest.   So it's never going to return in a massive way to the U.S.   As Chinese workers start to get paid more, it will eventually start moving out of China regardless of tariffs and to India, Vietnam, Thailand, etc.   And 30 years from now, we'll see movement to countries in Africa.

    Personally, I think products should be manufactured close to the markets in which they're sold, so that workers get the benefits of those sales, but that's a fantasy that's never going to happen in the modern world.    

    The trade war with China is a proxy war for nothing except Trump's ego and simplistic thinking.   He still thinks that tariffs are taxes imposed upon foreign manufacturers that are paid to the Federal Government and that they won't raise the cost of raw materials and consumer goods in the U.S. and thereby affect the profitability of American companies, which in turn could lead to lower employment levels in those companies.   It just "sounds good" and it's red meat for his base. 

    At the same time that many Americans support Trump's trade war, they won't pay the prices to buy U.S.-made products.   If those $8 t-shirts in WalMart jumped to $25, which is around what they'd be if they were manufactured in the U.S., they'd freak out.   Those $400 TV sets would probably be closer to $2000, even with highly automated factories.    In 1966, I bought a 2-channel high quality U.S. made hi-fi receiver for $400.  That's $3221 in current dollars.  It's not that there aren't receivers today that sell for that kind of money, but they're the equivalent of five or more 1966 receivers with all the additional amp channels and other functionality.   

    When the original 128K Mac was released in 1984, it was $2495 (monochrome 9" monitor, one floppy drive, no hard disk, 128k memory).  That's $6270 in current dollars.   Now there have been technological leaps since then that would lower the price regardless of where it was manufactured, but if a Mac was completely manufactured in the U.S., the price would certainly be closer to that $6270 than to $2495.   Which is weird in a way because while American workers make more than Chinese factory workers, their wages certainly aren't great and don't approach anything near what tech workers in offices are making.   But would we be willing to pay such a price?   If we really cared about American factory workers, we would, but I think most Americans wouldn't because they care more about saving money.
    China’s corrupt business practices are the basis for their economic growth. I’d be OK with the near destruction of their economy up until they change their ways. They need the US far more than the US needs China.

    Wow.  Really?!!

    It’s more likely that the human entrepreneurial spirit led to China’s economic growth, despite government corruption, not because of it.  It is true that the PLA generals who head many businesses have used government assets to enrich themselves and the state backed companies they oversee.  This type of corruption and its distorting effects on the free market system should not be understated and needs to be confronted head on.

    But it is a misreading of facts on the ground to imply that all Chinese businesses came to be because of the government.  Just as in the US, economic activity thrives best when the government gets out of the way.

    To wish for the destruction of the Chinese economy is a bit misanthropic.  To strive for a level playing field ought to be our goal.  Strong open free trade between all counties will lift all boats.

    It's been a level playing field.  Trump wants it tilted towards the U.S. -- because he knows we can't compete otherwise.

    That's where his phony claims of "National Security" come from:   He knows we are being beaten on the battlefield of a free market.  So, he's throwing road blocks up in their way -- even holding a political prisoner hostage.   At various times, in rare moments of honesty, he has pretty much admitted that.

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