How Jony Ive's design passion made Apple what it is today

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 37
    Hopefully Apple will now stop making everything unnecessarily thin at the expense of performance; thermal throttling, crappy keyboards, bending because you looked at the device, etc.
    numenorean
  • Reply 22 of 37
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    ireland said:
    lmac said:
    Jony will continue to work with Apple, but it will require a special adapter.
    He’ll commute to dongletown. 
    I got that reference (Jason Snell and Myke Hurley).
  • Reply 23 of 37
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,680member
    tzeshan said:
    He is leaving because there is no revolutionary new product in the pipeline for the next several years. 
    One wouldn't get that impression with the way Tim Cook always mentions Apple's great product pipeline.
    seanjwatto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 37
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,757member
    Doomed.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 37
    seanismorrisseanismorris Posts: 1,624member
    I wonder if Apple will now get into the 2 in 1 laptop (IPad IOS?).  I think there’s room for Apple to do it better...
  • Reply 26 of 37
    rcfarcfa Posts: 1,124member
    Hopefully, Jony Ive's obsession with ever-thinner devices will go with him and allow future products to have larger batteries and better cooling.
    Nah. Apple products have remarkable cooling and do so very quietly. What you're asking for is a machine like the work Dell notebook sitting on my desk


    No, that’s not what anyone is asking for.
    what people are asking for are devices without soldered in SSD and RAM so they can be upgraded, or iPhones that are a couple of mm thicker, so the batteries last longer, both in terms of capacity and longevity, as thinner batteries are more fickle, fragile and have lower capacity.
    I’d me more than happy to have an iPhone a few mm thicker, but lasting 24h of heavy usage, because guess what’s less sleek: a super thin iPhone that requires a Morphie-like battery case or a power bank with cable, or one that’s a little thicker, but can ditch both while easily lasting 24h of heavy use.

  • Reply 27 of 37
    9secondkox29secondkox2 Posts: 2,570member
    Jony's a stud. 

    His departure will be felt as strongly as Jobs' was.

    But at least he will still be around as a consultant to prevent any cliff-dives. 

    There is no replacing this guy.

    The new designers will each be wanting to prove themselves rather than continue a legacy. We will see what that results in - good or bad. 
    macpluspluswatto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 37
    colinngcolinng Posts: 116member
    Just thought I'd comment: "17in Titanium PowerBook G4" should be "15in Titantium PowerBook G4."
    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_G4#Titanium_PowerBook_G4

    Jony planned his departure long, long ago. His team knew. Jony once said they had no voluntary departures from the design team for years and years. Suddenly, last year, all the original members left. There's a culture change happening and the brilliant team of ages old doesn't like it. They didn't all retire - they all found new jobs. So they still love designing, just not at Apple. 

    My take on why Jony left, is cynical: Jony and the old team wants to design products used by individuals. Apple is now chasing corporate dollars.

    Products used by individuals:
    - PowerBook G3 Series (why make the keyboard bronze and transparent?)
    - iMac: Bondi, Fruit colored, Dalmation, all the way up to the white ones.
    - Blue & White G3
    - iBook: Tangerine, Blueberry, Key Lime, even the white ones
    - iPod
    - iPhone
    - the original iPad with its rounded back so it would feel great in hand
    - Apple Watch, AirPods
    These all scream "personal device" like no other Apple products. Jony says this every time he introduces a new category: "x is the most personal device Apple has ever made."

    Corporate devices:
    - Beige "molar" PowerMac G3 (education market)
    - Graphite PowerMac G4, Mirror Drive Door PowerMac G4
    - eMac (education market)
    - Aluminum PowerMac G5
    - Mac Pro (tower)
    - Mac Pro (cylinder)
    - The $2000+ iPad Pro with square edges
    - Mac Pro 2019 - US$11,997 for base model, display, and stand
    These all scream "conformity" and "let's look boring and respectable so CEOs will authorize IT departments to issue them". 

    Whereas before they designed products with personality and approachability (stuff they wanted their family and friends to use), they now push sterile, corporate-friendly design. Rectilinear aluminum and glass. 

    They wanted the corporate market for the money, they got it now, and they don't care about personal users anymore. 

    If they did, it wouldn't have taken 9 bloody years for the iPad to get basic "flash drive" copy  support.

    If they wanted people (not corporations) to write apps, they would have enabled that on iPad, but instead, Step 0 for using Xcode: buy a $999 Mac mini (6 years after the 2012 Quad i7 on eBay for $599, but no speed improvements to show for it). 

    Don't get me wrong. Hang on to your shares. Apple will make TONS of money. They only participate in markets where they can make a significant contribution is Big Brother speak for "we only make stuff that has enormous profit". 

    So who makes "personal computers" today? Raspberry Pi. 
  • Reply 29 of 37
    This may seem silly to those not from the UK or Commonwealth countries, but Sir Jony Ive has a KBE and that generally means that “Sir” is required when referring to him, both in print and verbally. I understand that AppleInsider is US-based, but I wonder if "Sir" should be included anyway. Within a Commonwealth country, it would be very disrespectful not to use it ;)
    colinng
  • Reply 30 of 37
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,788member
    Boy these forums are full of jealous, angry men. You buy the products but hate the people behind them. So curious. 
    macplusplus
  • Reply 31 of 37
    seanjseanj Posts: 318member
    sumergo said:
    rain22 said:
    jdw said:
    Thanks for your passion, Jony, but now it's time for Apple to Think Different.
    This. 
    I think Ives was more form over function the last 10 years... appropriate his company name is LoveForm. 
    Here is hoping for some 'function' back at Apple. 
    Fix the MacBooks so people want them again. 
    Agreed.
    Ives is an Industrial Designer - a hardware designer whose only focus/understanding is mechanical/engineering form . . .
    He is not a software designer and has never shown any comprehension of what it means in usability/UX terms to try to be an actual user of his products.
    It can't be worse now he's gone.

    The UX can’t be worse now he’s gone?
    I have a one word response...

    Microsoft! 🤣
  • Reply 32 of 37
    seanjseanj Posts: 318member
    rcfa said:
    Hopefully, Jony Ive's obsession with ever-thinner devices will go with him and allow future products to have larger batteries and better cooling.
    Nah. Apple products have remarkable cooling and do so very quietly. What you're asking for is a machine like the work Dell notebook sitting on my desk


    No, that’s not what anyone is asking for.
    what people are asking for are devices without soldered in SSD and RAM so they can be upgraded, or iPhones that are a couple of mm thicker, so the batteries last longer, both in terms of capacity and longevity, as thinner batteries are more fickle, fragile and have lower capacity.
    I’d me more than happy to have an iPhone a few mm thicker, but lasting 24h of heavy usage, because guess what’s less sleek: a super thin iPhone that requires a Morphie-like battery case or a power bank with cable, or one that’s a little thicker, but can ditch both while easily lasting 24h of heavy use.

    No ‘people’ aren’t asking for SSDs and RAM not be soldered in. Because most people are busy living there lives doing stuff. It’s only a few nerds that want to open up their computers, cars, toasters, whatever and tweak/customise them.
    Steve Jobs knew that, that was the driving ethos from the Apple ][ onwards.
    macplusplus
  • Reply 33 of 37
    kiowavtkiowavt Posts: 94member
    Saved. Several of his lovely looking choices have made products less easy to use. A genius yes, but that does not mean 100% in choices, but has seemed to give him that power.
  • Reply 34 of 37
    colinngcolinng Posts: 116member
    Thanks for the reminder on manners. It felt awkward referring to Sir Jony Ive as just Jony, and now I know why. Unfortunately the time window of 4 hours to edit my post has passed. In hindsight, my post was unremarkable and not worth a rewrite. 
  • Reply 35 of 37
    colinngcolinng Posts: 116member
    seanj said:

    No ‘people’ aren’t asking for SSDs and RAM not be soldered in. Because most people are busy living there lives doing stuff. It’s only a few nerds that want to open up their computers, cars, toasters, whatever and tweak/customise them.

    Steve Jobs knew that, that was the driving ethos from the Apple ][ onwards.
    I am.

    Let's say an iPhone is $1000. $1000/3 years vs. $1029/5 years (battery replacement, slumming it that last year because there’s more to “living their lives doing stuff” than having the latest iPhone), means I save $608 over 5 years because someone was willing to change the battery for $29.

    When the flash on a Mac is replaceable, it saves even more. The 1TB SSD option, $1000 4 years ago, is now $129 on Amazon.

    Why would any non-nerd want to upgrade an old Mac? Two major reasons:

    1. Moore’s Law stopped. 7 years later, the $999 2012 Mac mini holds up really well (within 30%) against the latest $999 Mac mini. 

    GeekBench scores (Configuration | Single Core | Multi-Core):

    2012 Quad i7 2.3 | 3,142 |   9,959
    2012 Quad i7 2.6 | 3,376 | 10,666
    2018 Quad i3 3.6 | 4,670 | 13,792

    Source: MacTracker

    2. The environment:

    Mac mini life cycle carbon emissions
    53% Production
    44% Transport
    3% Use
    <1% End-of-life processing

    Source: Apple 


    You don't need tools to upgrade RAM on a Mac mini 2012. Instructions: Mac mini (Late 2012)

    They "forgot" how to make the Mac mini 2018 serviceable: 
    Mac mini (2018) does not have user-installable RAM. You can configure the memory in your Mac mini (2018) when you purchase it. To upgrade the memory in your Mac mini (2018), go to an Apple Store or Apple Authorized Service Provider.
    To quote Sir Jony Ive:
    “It's sad and frustrating that we are surrounded by products that seem to testify to a complete lack of care. That's an interesting thing about an object. One object speaks volumes about the company that produced it and its values and priorities.”

    I think MBAs (not MacBook Airs) run the place now. "Maximizing Shareholder Wealth". 

    What happened to making great stuff? Changing the world? Caring about the environment? They forgot who they were. The "Apple ignited the personal computer revolution in the 1970s..." is gone from their media boilerplate. 

    Steve Jobs’ Advice to Nike: Get Rid of the Crappy Stuff
    Maybe they should get rid of the crappy shenanigans. Sir Jony Ive made the PowerMac 9600 door swing open with a button. Mac users got a LOT of use out of their upgradeable computers. 

    If even a fraction of Mac mini users could upgrade Flash and RAM, they would more than double the expected lifetimes of their computers, and halve their environmental impact.

    Upgradable Macs? Good for the environment, good for our wallets, good for poor students, bad for "Maximizing Shareholder Wealth" in the short term. 

    Which way did Apple choose?
    edited June 2019 badmonk
  • Reply 36 of 37
    seanjseanj Posts: 318member
    But you’re 1% of the population at most.

    I have an iPhone 6, works fine, but iOS 13 won’t run on it. If the 2019 iPhone supports 5G then I’ll buy it, if not I’ll wait until the 2020 version. The next big feature I’m waiting for is 5G. I don’t feel the need to open up my phone and try to upgrade its processor or try and retrofit a 5G chipset myself!

    I still use my original Black MacBook from 2006. I use it to rip CDs as my main Macs lack CD drives. Don’t throw technology away because it’s old.
    But trying to keep an old machine up to date by constantly trying to retrofit new processors, memory, SSD for HDD, new ports, etc is longer term both more expensive and results in an inferior product. And you still end up with a machine that may not be supported by the latest OS you want to run. Perhaps not too critical for macOS but for the security inept Windows, you need to run a supported version.

    Memory is not why I’m looking at getting a replacement for my 2012 Mac. I want to run the latest OS - I expect Catalina may be the last upgrade it gets. I want it to be easily repaired by the techs at Apple stores - replacement parts will no longer be available soon. I want to have the ability to drive 4K monitors and I want Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C ports and the options they provide. And I want it all in a package I can easily carry around with me.

    Apple knows what their customers, and potential customers, want. Sometimes they slip, such as the butterfly keyboard issues, but generally they get things right.
  • Reply 37 of 37
    colinngcolinng Posts: 116member
    seanj said:
    But you’re 1% of the population at most.

    Apple knows what their customers, and potential customers, want. Sometimes they slip, such as the butterfly keyboard issues, but generally they get things right.
    I doubt 1% of the Mac using population would be sufficient to keep OWC, Transcend, and the makers of the SSDs that only work in MacBooks - profitable. When storage was socketed - those companies did just fine. OWC’s been around 3 decades! 

    Apple - its engineers that is - know what their customers, and potential customers, want. 

    The problem is their bosses are MBAs who prefer to have their hand in their customer’s wallets. Apple used to be run by people who gave a damn. Steve even showed up to design meetings even though he knew he was going to die of cancer soon. I’m not advocating that employees have that level of dedication - but it’s a far cry from Tim Cook who didn’t even visit the design labs. If any of what the WSJ just published is actually true (there is evidence they interviewed employees), then it’s damning. 

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/jony-ive-is-departing-apple-but-he-started-leaving-years-ago-11561943376?mod=rsswn

    Apple is now run by MBAs who only care about “Maximixing Shareholder Wealth”. It’s even on the last line of the article - who the design team reports to.

    They don’t give a damn about us any more. The engineers may care, but when your boss is an MBA who doesn’t give a damn about technology, design, or anything (and just virtue signals they care about the environment - but doesn’t actually lift a finger to double the useful lifespan of a Mac), then as an employee you have a few choices:

    - shut up and do what the boss says
    - choose your battles and “manage upward"
    - move to another department. If the company is big enough, and your skills are transferrable. Phil Shiller was SVP Worldwide Marketing for... decades? Why is everyone's favourite Apple Exec (the other being Craig) moved to another department? Maybe its one place he can still do good? Or get as far away from the MBA assholes as possible? 
    - leave. If you’re famous enough that you can find work anywhere (i.e. your name has a Sir in front of it). Or the company decides it doesn't need your services (design) anymore. 

    I’ve said it in another post: the $999 2012 Mac mini is within 30% performance of the $999 2018 Mac mini. This is because Moore’s Law ended. I also quoted Apple - that only 3% of the Mac mini’s carbon footprint comes from usage. The obvious way to help the environment is to prolong the life of the Mac mini. Literally halve the carbon output. But the MBAs can’t wait for trivial things like “reputation” or “goodwill’. They just want their bonuses now. 

    Don’t think just about yourself. Maybe you have a nephew who could use a perfectly good Mac mini, and doesn’t do video work so doesn’t care for a 4K display. I can give my 2012 to my nephew in 2019. But I wouldn’t be so sure about giving a 2018 Mac mini away in 2025 - because it’s not upgradeable. And if you think about it, teenagers are the ones who have time to search for upgrade instructions and petition their parents for new parts. That's how they get hands-on technical experience! 

    Ive battled the company to make the PowerMac 9600 upgradable with the push of a button. The 2012 Mac mini is opened by twisting with your thumbs - no tools. People responded with... love. PC people jokingly called us the Mac faithful. You would be too if the company made a great product that had a long useful life, long useful secondary life, and strongly felt that "a Mac is simply the best computer money can buy." 

    The MBAs took over, and now to upgrade you need to bring it to an AASP, or pay far higher than industry rates upfront. And flash? There’s no upgrade - but it now or forever hold your peace. 

    Internal Flash Module price comparison:

    Capacity | Apple   | Amazon - Samsung 
    256GB    |   $200  |  $74.99 (250GB)
    512GB    |   $400  |  $117.99 (500GB)
    1TB         |   $800  |  $217.99
    2TB         | $1,400 |  $499.90

    Design is how something works. Apple built its reputation on making technology easy for “the rest of us”. Mac OS made the user interface easy. Ive made upgrading a one-button, no-tools affair. 

    Now the MBAs are going to milk that reputation for all its worth and run Apple into the ground. 

    ---

    If I sound too negative, here's the flipside. AAPL share value will go up. Way up. So hang on to your shares! Just make sure you dump them just before my sentiment is shared by everybody. Right now, this sentiment is... rare. But the predictive power of this post means it will at some point become universal. Dump your shares just before that happens. 

    Or, if Apple actually course-corrects, then they will reverse the shenanigans too. 

    But hey, Sir Jony Ive, and just about every legendary designer, plus legendary software guys (Chris Lattner - inventor of Swift) - they left. So they obviously didn't think it was going to change soon, or, it was too stressful to deal with day-to-day waiting for wisdom to prevail. 

    --

    Edit: Adding RAM pricing:

    260-pin PC4-21300 (2666 MHz) DDR4 SO-DIMM. Source: MacTracker

    Capacity | Apple  | Amazon
    16GB      | +$200 | $67.94 Crucial
    32GB      | +$600 | $133.95 Crucial
    64GB      | +$800 | $419.99 Mushkin (or buy 2 Samsung modules for $175.89 each)

    edited July 2019
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