Apple may switch butterfly keyboard for scissor version in MacBook Air

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 113
    huskydslhuskydsl Posts: 4member
    I've wanted a MacBook as a travel machine since it arrived in 2015 but I wasn't a fan of the keyboard so held off.  My Early 2011 15" MacBook Pro failed and so I ended up buying a new one in 2017 with the butterfly keyboard.  The primary way we interact with our laptops is through the screen, while the keyboard is the primary way we interact with our laptop by touch.  I've tried to get used to the butterfly keys, really really tried and yet it just doesn't work for me.  I find it to be a horrible typing experience so my very expensive, beautiful, powerful MacBook Pro now sits in a cradle in my office connected to a giant monitor and an apple chiclet keyboard so that I can at least love it when I'm sitting at my desk at home... which never happens these days.

    When I travel, I find my self taking my Surface Pro, it has a nice primary interaction (screen) and a decent primary touch (keyboard) but the rest is not that great in my opinion.  However, it'll do for travel.  I'd much rather be toting a beautiful, powerful, Macintosh portable that I can love.  I want it to be like the old days when it thrilled the senses, including touch.  The screens are amazing, the sound experience is impressive, Macs even have a certain smell to them!  A different keyboard will make them feel amazing.  I'm not licking my laptop but hitting the other three will make it delicious indeed.  

    Apple, please bring back an option for the chiclet keyboard or an alternative to the current Butterly keyboard.
    GeorgeBMachenrybaymatrix07780s_Apple_Guy
  • Reply 22 of 113
    9secondkox29secondkox2 Posts: 1,480member
    The butterfly keyboard rocks. 

    Best keyboard ive user. Perfect and efficient travel. 

    Love everything about it. 

    Bought my mbp new in 2017 and the keyboard has been nothing but awesome since day 1. 

    There is is nothing wrong with it and it is the way of the future for keys. 

    Going back to older scissor style keys keys would be a backward step. 

    No need. Keep pushing ahead Apple. You guys know what you’re doing. 
    macpluspluswozwoztyler82tht
  • Reply 23 of 113
    9secondkox29secondkox2 Posts: 1,480member
    Perhaps this is a continuation of Apple shifting away from sleek, minimalist design and towards functionality that we saw with the new MacPro?

    And, perhaps this shift had some connection (either cause or effect) with Ive's leaving?

    In any case, abandoning the flawed butterfly keyboard is long overdue.
    Um... the new Mac Pro IS sleek and minimalist. 

    It’s an amazing, thoroughly well thought out design. 

    It’s easy upgradability does. nothing to detract from its modern minimalist look. 
  • Reply 24 of 113
    wozwozwozwoz Posts: 255member
    This article makes no sense. If the scissor keyboard is better, then Apple would adopt it on the MacBook Pro first - not as a minor change to only the Macbook Air. The article goes on to say that the scissor keyboard is much cheaper to produce, and since the MacBook Air is the cheapest notebook that Apple makes, if Apple is in fact intending such change ... that the change is entirely about saving some production costs on a low-cost machine, leaving the more expensive Butterfly design for the Pro models. 

    I quite like the new Butterfly design - it takes a little getting used to, my error rate is a little higher until I adapt from my desktop keyboard, but after a bit, it can be very fast and nice to use.
    tyler82macplusplus
  • Reply 25 of 113
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,702member
    DuhSesame said:
    majorsl said:
    Hopefully they also put back in MagSafe and an escape key 
    Agreed, I miss the MagSafe but am now liking the additional(?) TB3/USB-C port.  I think Apple did the right thing by going to that standard.  There are USB-C "MagSafe" adapters that have pretty good reviews.  I waffle between buying one and then deciding I don't need it.  If Apple did something like a recessed USB-C/MageSafe adapter so it would be flush, that would be interesting, but I doubt that'll happen.

    https://snapnator.com/products/snapcable-magnetic-charging-cable-for-apple-macbook-ipad-pro-google-pixelbook-and-huawei-matebook

    What’s the problem for that?  It’s small, reversible and don’t take the bandwidth.  MagSafe is proprietary, clunky in comparison, and isn’t that reliable too.
    I loved the MagSafe connector on my 2011 MBA. the only issue was I had to replace the cord after 7 years - I consider that an acceptable lifespan for a power cable. 

    MagSafe was quintessential Apple design - beautifully executed, functional, and it just worked. I have 4 USB C ports on my 2017 MBP. The majority of the time I only use one to charge. Or to plug in a USB A adaptor. I'd be willing to bet that there are exceedingly few users that actually need 4 USB C ports. The only advantage of USB C is that you can plug in from either side. In every other aspect, the MagSafe connector was better. 

    I've seen the adaptor you list above, my concern (perhaps unfounded) is that it would catch on things as I slide my computer in/out of my bag, straining or breaking the USB C port.
    tyler82
  • Reply 26 of 113
    kestralkestral Posts: 284member
    Upgraded keyboard and quad-core processor would make this machine an instant winner.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 27 of 113
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,702member
    As mentioned above, this is a rumor from one of the usual sources with a mixed reliability record. I hope it's true, though. My take is that Apple moved to the butterfly keyboard to save depth and was caught a bit off guard by the reliability issues which they are now struggling to fix. As far as costs go, the cost of repairs could easily be enough for the Apple bean counters to notice - Apple is covering them under an extended warranty and they are not cheap, so even a relatively small portion of repairs can add up quickly.

    My own experience is that. it is orders of magnitude less reliable than my old 2011 MBA keyboard. I think a major source of the problem is that the tolerances, key travel and spaces are so small that crumbs that wouldn't get caught or cause issues with previous keyboards are now large enough to cause significant issues. 

    Either way, this change will probably be too late for my next purchase - my daughter needs a new machine for college. I want to get her a MBP, but I'll probably end up sucking it up and getting a windows machine for her. I think the MBP is a better computer, but she can't afford to be dealing with a broken keyboard and sending it in for a week when she has a term paper due. A Mercedes is better than a Hyundai, but if the Mercedes is in the shop the Hyundai wins. 
    raoulduke4280s_Apple_Guy
  • Reply 28 of 113
    rezwitsrezwits Posts: 835member
    All I know is I just replaced my 2017 with a 2019, because I WANT the Butterfly Keyboard.  Man do I love these keyboards!

    My thing is I have been typing for over 35 years, I don't have carpel tunnel, but guess what?  I am not going to GET tunnel either!

    2 things, I can type SO MUCH faster, and WAY LESS PAIN...2x 10x respectively!

    I had some issues with keys but got used to the over all, I just understand how Apple is MIGRATING us to a "disappearing" keyboard, so that in say 2024 will have "ALL GLASS KEYBOARD MACS" with ARM (and maybe INTEL too?)

    But until then 2019 MBP ROCK ON!!!
    macplusplus
  • Reply 29 of 113
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,430member
    rezwits said:
    All I know is I just replaced my 2017 with a 2019, because I WANT the Butterfly Keyboard.  Man do I love these keyboards!

    My thing is I have been typing for over 35 years, I don't have carpel tunnel, but guess what?  I am not going to GET tunnel either!

    2 things, I can type SO MUCH faster, and WAY LESS PAIN...2x 10x respectively!

    I had some issues with keys but got used to the over all, I just understand how Apple is MIGRATING us to a "disappearing" keyboard, so that in say 2024 will have "ALL GLASS KEYBOARD MACS" with ARM (and maybe INTEL too?)

    But until then 2019 MBP ROCK ON!!!
    The problem that is worrying people is not the typing feel or feedback (although some do actually hate that) but reliability. it seems to have less tolerance of particles getting under it and might even have other durability issues that aren't known yet.

    Also, when repair is needed, the top case and battery have to be swapped out too.

    In my book, it boils down to a design problem. One day Apple might reveal with more detail what happened. By then we will have more statistical data to evaluate how they performed. With three generations already it is still somewhat early to draw meaningful conclusions but the existence of repair extension programs is telling.
  • Reply 30 of 113
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,603member
    wood1208 said:
    If Apple made decision to move to non-butterfly keyboard than why wait? Do it in Fall 2019 Macbook Pro/Air upgrade when Intel's 10nm processors based upgrade is expected. Only reason it get pushed out to 2020 is because Apple is making major upgrade to MBA/MBP including moving to ARM.
    The report states the transition to the new keyboard will begin this year starting with the 2019 Macbook Air so I'm doubt of an ARM processor.
  • Reply 31 of 113
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,172member
    I just don’t understand the “thank goodness” “finally” “long time coming” posts as if this rumor is the gospel truth. What kind of personal RDF is that? You want it so you believe it’s true? And what if it’s not true and new MacBooks still have the butterfly keyboards when released?

    Bottom line is even if the keyboard changes there will be bitching and moaning over whatever replaces it.
    edited July 2019 macplusplusAppleExposed
  • Reply 32 of 113
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,172member
    wozwoz said:
    This article makes no sense. If the scissor keyboard is better, then Apple would adopt it on the MacBook Pro first - not as a minor change to only the Macbook Air. The article goes on to say that the scissor keyboard is much cheaper to produce, and since the MacBook Air is the cheapest notebook that Apple makes, if Apple is in fact intending such change ... that the change is entirely about saving some production costs on a low-cost machine, leaving the more expensive Butterfly design for the Pro models. 

    I quite like the new Butterfly design - it takes a little getting used to, my error rate is a little higher until I adapt from my desktop keyboard, but after a bit, it can be very fast and nice to use.
    Tech blog forums exist in their own little universes. What is declared useless and unusable by tech blog forums is often quite popular in the real world. For example, tech blog forums declared that a round face on a smartwatch was the ONLY proper design. Android watches had round faces so they were declared superior to the Watch. Only that didn’t happen in the real world did it. The Watch now completely dominates the smartwatch market. In tech blog forums all it takes is a single criticism to declare the entire design faulty, the “pile on” and “me too” paradigm.
    macplusplusAppleExposed
  • Reply 33 of 113
    lorin schultzlorin schultz Posts: 2,771member
    At the beginning of the article it says the change is predicted to be part of a 2019 refresh, but at the end it says the new keyboard will be adopted in 2020. Which is it? If it’s 2019 I may wait for it. If it’s next year I may not.
    2019 for the MB Air refresh, and 2020 for the MB Pro. According to Mr. Kuo in the article...
    D’oh! Lack of reading comprehension. Somehow I missed the critically important detail that the 2020 date is for the MacBook PRO, I thought it was another reference to the Air. Thanks for punching through the fog in my brain.
  • Reply 34 of 113
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,430member
    lkrupp said:
    wozwoz said:
    This article makes no sense. If the scissor keyboard is better, then Apple would adopt it on the MacBook Pro first - not as a minor change to only the Macbook Air. The article goes on to say that the scissor keyboard is much cheaper to produce, and since the MacBook Air is the cheapest notebook that Apple makes, if Apple is in fact intending such change ... that the change is entirely about saving some production costs on a low-cost machine, leaving the more expensive Butterfly design for the Pro models. 

    I quite like the new Butterfly design - it takes a little getting used to, my error rate is a little higher until I adapt from my desktop keyboard, but after a bit, it can be very fast and nice to use.
    Tech blog forums exist in their own little universes. What is declared useless and unusable by tech blog forums is often quite popular in the real world. For example, tech blog forums declared that a round face on a smartwatch was the ONLY proper design. Android watches had round faces so they were declared superior to the Watch. Only that didn’t happen in the real world did it. The Watch now completely dominates the smartwatch market. In tech blog forums all it takes is a single criticism to declare the entire design faulty, the “pile on” and “me too” paradigm.
    Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?

    I thought Apple's rectangular offering had less than a third of the market. The biggest problem seems to be that people haven't come round to non-round faces just yet. So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.
    chemengin1
  • Reply 35 of 113
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 4,297member
    avon b7 said:
    lkrupp said:
    wozwoz said:
    This article makes no sense. If the scissor keyboard is better, then Apple would adopt it on the MacBook Pro first - not as a minor change to only the Macbook Air. The article goes on to say that the scissor keyboard is much cheaper to produce, and since the MacBook Air is the cheapest notebook that Apple makes, if Apple is in fact intending such change ... that the change is entirely about saving some production costs on a low-cost machine, leaving the more expensive Butterfly design for the Pro models. 

    I quite like the new Butterfly design - it takes a little getting used to, my error rate is a little higher until I adapt from my desktop keyboard, but after a bit, it can be very fast and nice to use.
    Tech blog forums exist in their own little universes. What is declared useless and unusable by tech blog forums is often quite popular in the real world. For example, tech blog forums declared that a round face on a smartwatch was the ONLY proper design. Android watches had round faces so they were declared superior to the Watch. Only that didn’t happen in the real world did it. The Watch now completely dominates the smartwatch market. In tech blog forums all it takes is a single criticism to declare the entire design faulty, the “pile on” and “me too” paradigm.
    Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?

    I thought Apple's rectangular offering had less than a third of the market. The biggest problem seems to be that people haven't come round to non-round faces just yet. So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.
    What’s your source for this? 
  • Reply 36 of 113
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,430member
    avon b7 said:
    lkrupp said:
    wozwoz said:
    This article makes no sense. If the scissor keyboard is better, then Apple would adopt it on the MacBook Pro first - not as a minor change to only the Macbook Air. The article goes on to say that the scissor keyboard is much cheaper to produce, and since the MacBook Air is the cheapest notebook that Apple makes, if Apple is in fact intending such change ... that the change is entirely about saving some production costs on a low-cost machine, leaving the more expensive Butterfly design for the Pro models. 

    I quite like the new Butterfly design - it takes a little getting used to, my error rate is a little higher until I adapt from my desktop keyboard, but after a bit, it can be very fast and nice to use.
    Tech blog forums exist in their own little universes. What is declared useless and unusable by tech blog forums is often quite popular in the real world. For example, tech blog forums declared that a round face on a smartwatch was the ONLY proper design. Android watches had round faces so they were declared superior to the Watch. Only that didn’t happen in the real world did it. The Watch now completely dominates the smartwatch market. In tech blog forums all it takes is a single criticism to declare the entire design faulty, the “pile on” and “me too” paradigm.
    Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?

    I thought Apple's rectangular offering had less than a third of the market. The biggest problem seems to be that people haven't come round to non-round faces just yet. So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.
    What’s your source for this? 
    No source. I simply remembered reading a piece on smartwatches (a couple of months ago) that said Apple had a little under a third of the market.

    I didn't bookmark as I don't wear watches so I have little interest in square or round faces.

    I'll check my history and see what it brings up.

    EDIT: perhaps this:

    https://9to5mac.com/2019/06/20/android-smartwatches/
    edited July 2019
  • Reply 37 of 113
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member
    Doubt it. Reminds me of the "no 3D touch on iPhone 11 Confirmed!" articles. Apples not gonna kill their baby just improve it.

    Butterfly is a marvel. I think the issues can and will be fixed. I actually like how quiet they are and tiny.

    With that said. I don't experience any of these issues on my 2017 Macbook and I'm a super power user. I mean I abuse the sh** out of my Macbook and use it more than my iPhone. Hours a day. Tossing it around. Throwing it in my bag. Dropping it on solid floors you name it.

    What I DO have issues with no one is talking about:

    1. I get too much dirty crap between the keys.

    2. I have a bad habit of scratching the "s" key. It's probably the most used key because pro studios train us to Apple+S to save every time we make a change. During 8 hour sessions this key can experience some abuse. Since I scratch it the black paint on it has smeared off a little.

    If Apple can fix these 2 problems I'm golden!
    macplusplus
  • Reply 38 of 113
    And there we have it, could it be that this is part of the reason why Ivy is leaving ... wonder how much the butterfly keyboard will end up costing apple in repairs and lost customers..
  • Reply 39 of 113
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member
    And there we have it, could it be that this is part of the reason why Ivy is leaving ... wonder how much the butterfly keyboard will end up costing apple in repairs and lost customers..

    No more than every other company.

    ALL companies have issues. The difference is Apple issues are blown up and front page news.

    lkrupp said:
    I just don’t understand the “thank goodness” “finally” “long time coming” posts as if this rumor is the gospel truth. What kind of personal RDF is that? You want it so you believe it’s true? And what if it’s not true and new MacBooks still have the butterfly keyboards when released?

    Bottom line is even if the keyboard changes there will be bitching and moaning over whatever replaces it.

    Skimming through the comments I'm getting a weird feeling that if Apple were to switch back to old school scissors a new batch of complaints will roll in like "stupid Apple we liked butterfly keys!"

    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    lkrupp said:
    wozwoz said:
    This article makes no sense. If the scissor keyboard is better, then Apple would adopt it on the MacBook Pro first - not as a minor change to only the Macbook Air. The article goes on to say that the scissor keyboard is much cheaper to produce, and since the MacBook Air is the cheapest notebook that Apple makes, if Apple is in fact intending such change ... that the change is entirely about saving some production costs on a low-cost machine, leaving the more expensive Butterfly design for the Pro models. 

    I quite like the new Butterfly design - it takes a little getting used to, my error rate is a little higher until I adapt from my desktop keyboard, but after a bit, it can be very fast and nice to use.
    Tech blog forums exist in their own little universes. What is declared useless and unusable by tech blog forums is often quite popular in the real world. For example, tech blog forums declared that a round face on a smartwatch was the ONLY proper design. Android watches had round faces so they were declared superior to the Watch. Only that didn’t happen in the real world did it. The Watch now completely dominates the smartwatch market. In tech blog forums all it takes is a single criticism to declare the entire design faulty, the “pile on” and “me too” paradigm.
    Don't round faces dominate the smartwatch segment?

    I thought Apple's rectangular offering had less than a third of the market. The biggest problem seems to be that people haven't come round to non-round faces just yet. So much so that there were even rumours here the other day about Apple Watch sales falling well below internal expectations.
    What’s your source for this? 
    No source. I simply remembered reading a piece on smartwatches (a couple of months ago) that said Apple had a little under a third of the market.

    I didn't bookmark as I don't wear watches so I have little interest in square or round faces.

    I'll check my history and see what it brings up.

    EDIT: perhaps this:

    https://9to5mac.com/2019/06/20/android-smartwatches/



    Should I even reply?.....
  • Reply 40 of 113
    tipootipoo Posts: 1,120member
    "Kuo also suggests a switch away from butterfly will reduce costs, as a keyboard using the mechanism is between 250% and 350% higher in cost to produce than a general notebook keyboard due to low production yields. "

    Wow. This for a switch prone to failure, when I'm just here wishing they'd use 
    POM keycaps rather than PBT as the former will hold the matte finish rather than wear off and look like a perma-oil sheen like the current ones will. 
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