Apple's 2019 16-inch MacBook Pro keyboard expected to shift to scissor mechanism

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 46
    zimmiezimmie Posts: 628member
    slurpy said:

    There is nothing wrong with the butterfly design. I've had multiple butterfly KBs with zero issues, as have many other people I know. There isn't a shred of real evidence that they're less reliable. Do you have any? Anecdotally
    What? Are you saying the butterfly keyboard repair program is fake news

    https://support.apple.com/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-notebooks
    The assertion is the keyboard service program is a response to a PR issue rather than a widespread functional issue.

    As reported here, hard data does indicate the first version of the butterfly keyboard was less reliable, but the sample size is still really small. 2771 "service events" in total with 277 related to the keyboard but not Touch Bar.

    Out of how many MacBook Pro units with butterfly keyboards sold in the area covered by those service centers? Apple doesn't tell us.
    fastasleep
  • Reply 22 of 46
    MisterKitMisterKit Posts: 464member
    Whether the butterfly keyboard problems are overblown or not it’s time for Apple to move away from the PR debacle.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 46
    foljsfoljs Posts: 388member
    blastdoor said:
    Scissor beats paper, clearly, but how about a rock-based design? Surely nothing beats rock! 
    Err, paper wraps rock.
    fastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 46
    foljsfoljs Posts: 388member
    henrybay said:
    I really hope this is true. 

    The Butterfly Keyboard is a flawed design, and not just a matter of preference. Here’s why. 

    Keyboard travel is like cushioning in a sports shoe. If there is insufficient depth of cushioning, the shoes will feel harsh to run in. Similarly, a lack of key travel makes typing feel like pounding your fingers on concrete. 

    This harshness can’t be fixed a adding softer membranes under the keys, because the problem is one of physics, not materials. 

    By compressing the key travel distance, as Apple has done, they have also compressed the keystroke duration to about 40 milliseconds - which causes the keys to ‘bottom out’ too early. This lack of travel is insufficient to allow a soft landing of the fingertips on the aluminium frame.  

    Sure, you could argue that you can get used to shallow keyboard travel - like you can get used to running shoes with no cushioning. But after you’ve run a few miles (or pounded out a few thousands words), the lack of cushioning takes its toll. 

    This is why it is so critical that Apple increases the amount of travel in the next generation of MacBook keyboards. 

    That sounds like an ad-hoc, hand-waivy argument. The travel is not the problem itself, not in any kind of physical or physiological law/limit. Many people like it, and even prefer it and miss it when they go back to previous generation keyboards. In any case, it's more of a personal preference than some hard issue. The problem is the design gets keys stuck. That's not a personal preference thing. The design is faulty in that.
    doozydozen
  • Reply 25 of 46
    curtis hannahcurtis hannah Posts: 1,814member
    I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with the butterfly keyboard beyond the fact that they made it not possible to pop keys out easily, hopefully a future chasis redesign with better locks is all that’s needed?

    I also noticed the report that the iPad keyboards will always be the same, and I’m guessing it’s possible they will redesign them as well at some point to be backlit, whatever the mechanism it uses.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 46
    Sold. I was thinking of waiting a year if the the new keyboard design didn't make it into this years 16" but if true, I'm in. If they can throw in a permanent ESC key at the top left of the keyboard beside the touchbar, all the better. I have a 2012 Retina MBP that runs flawlessly that I gave to my wife. These machines are incredible how long they last if you take care of them.
    edited July 2019 80s_Apple_Guywatto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 46
    xp17xp17 Posts: 15member
    I like butterfly keyboard more than scissors. Hope new one will be like butterfly but more reliable.
    doozydozen
  • Reply 28 of 46
    jdiamondjdiamond Posts: 105member
    ireland said:
    Let’s see the arguments now from apologists who say there’s nothing wrong with the butterfly design. Turns out key-travel and reliability matter to people. Sadly, Apple will use this as yet one more justification for price increase.
    Heck man - I'll pay more for a modern Apple computer with a scissors keyboard.  It's that or go back to Windows.   :(   Sure, you can say, "but a good keyboard doesn't cost Apple $1,000."  Well, neither does 1TB of flash.
  • Reply 29 of 46
    jdiamondjdiamond Posts: 105member
    Maybe the best way to explain this all is Apple did an interesting experiment and discovered that the MARKET value of having a usable keyboard with your laptop is about $1,000.  People want to be able to type as much as they want a 2 TB hard drive.  Next experiment - if Apple removes the screen, what will Apple users pay to get it back?  (I'm hopefully kidding about the screen thing, but they're currently doing the experiment "if we take away the 17" Macbook Pro, what will users pay to get it back?)   But at this point, if we can get the good stuff again just by throwing cash at Tim, this is a great first step.  We're all realizing we're in a precarious boat, because only Apple makes the hardware for us, and they can take it away at will...
  • Reply 30 of 46
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,265member
    Rayz2016 said:
    ireland said:
    Let’s see the arguments now from apologists who say there’s nothing wrong with the butterfly design. Turns out key-travel and reliability matter to people. Sadly, Apple will use this as yet one more justification for price increase.
    Well, to start with, they haven't done it yet. 

    Secondly, if they do, you'll just find something else to whine about. 

    My guess? Even if they change the keyboard mechanism, the travel won't increase.
    The most conservative guess for me will be a direct replacement from the Magic Keyboard 2, which only have about 1mm of travel, still shorter than old Retina Pros.
  • Reply 31 of 46
    kimberlykimberly Posts: 413member
    MisterKit said:
    Whether the butterfly keyboard problems are overblown or not it’s time for Apple to move away from the PR debacle.
    Ahhh ... a post that simply states the core problem.
    doozydozen
  • Reply 32 of 46
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,213member
    henrybay said:
    I really hope this is true. 

    The Butterfly Keyboard is a flawed design, and not just a matter of preference. Here’s why. 

    Keyboard travel is like cushioning in a sports shoe. If there is insufficient depth of cushioning, the shoes will feel harsh to run in. Similarly, a lack of key travel makes typing feel like pounding your fingers on concrete. 

    This harshness can’t be fixed a adding softer membranes under the keys, because the problem is one of physics, not materials. 

    By compressing the key travel distance, as Apple has done, they have also compressed the keystroke duration to about 40 milliseconds - which causes the keys to ‘bottom out’ too early. This lack of travel is insufficient to allow a soft landing of the fingertips on the aluminium frame.  

    Sure, you could argue that you can get used to shallow keyboard travel - like you can get used to running shoes with no cushioning. But after you’ve run a few miles (or pounded out a few thousands words), the lack of cushioning takes its toll. 

    This is why it is so critical that Apple increases the amount of travel in the next generation of MacBook keyboards. 

    You’re typing far too hard on these keyboards then. Just like with adjusting to typing on an iPad, I don’t type the same way on my 2018 MBP as I did on my 2011, I adjusted slightly to the new style and prefer it immensely over the old ones. Soften your typing and you’ll be fine. 
    edited July 2019 designrmacplusplus
  • Reply 33 of 46
    jimh2jimh2 Posts: 453member
    My money is ready to be spent. My 2014 is long in the tooth and I've been sitting on the fence too long. Prior to the 2014 I was an every other year person. Of course it's how I make my money, but luckily I maxed it out and did not buy the newer body-style. The performance increase was never their until the latest version with i9.
  • Reply 34 of 46
    anomeanome Posts: 1,486member
    I will be interested to see what the actual performance difference between the butterfly and new scissor keyboards is. I know a lot of the punditsphere didn't like the butterfly keyboard for personal reasons, and leapt on the apparent reliability issues as justification for not just liking it. As the main complaint was the lack of travel, will a scissor keyboard necessarily include more travel?

    Personally, I haven't had an issue with the butterfly keyboard, and the travel doesn't really concern me. The only thing I'm really looking for in the scissor mechanism is people shutting up about the damn keyboard.

    Now if there was just a way to shut people up about the ports.
    fastasleep
  • Reply 35 of 46
    slurpy said:
    ireland said:
    Let’s see the arguments now from apologists who say there’s nothing wrong with the butterfly design. Turns out key-travel and reliability matter to people. Sadly, Apple will use this as yet one more justification for price increase.
    There is nothing wrong with the butterfly design. I've had multiple butterfly KBs with zero issues, as have many other people I know. There isn't a shred of real evidence that they're less reliable. Do you have any? Anecdotally, it seems that way because the clickbait industry has pounced on this, and one blog/youtube video about a KB issue gets shared millions of times. Apple claims there is not a higher percentage coming in for repairs compared to the scissor models, and I believe them. They may very well switch mechanisms for this machine, but could be due to more of a PR thing, since "butterfly keyboard" is now connected with negatives, based on this massive exaggeration and clickbait industry. I'm faster with the butterfly design, and I find typing is more comfortable and requires less effort. 

    And no, the price "increase" will e due to a fact that this will be a completely different machine. Just like how there's a price "increase" between the 8 and the X, or the XR and the XS. If you don't like the pricing, Apple sells other laptop models.

    Had Apple had extended warranties for any other type of keyboard? Even the 2019 Macs have already been added to the warranty program. That's pretty damming evidence that even Apple knows there's a problem. None of the scissor keyboards had a warranty like this. 
  • Reply 36 of 46
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,714member
    slurpy said:
    ireland said:
    Let’s see the arguments now from apologists who say there’s nothing wrong with the butterfly design. Turns out key-travel and reliability matter to people. Sadly, Apple will use this as yet one more justification for price increase.
    There is nothing wrong with the butterfly design. I've had multiple butterfly KBs with zero issues, as have many other people I know. There isn't a shred of real evidence that they're less reliable. Do you have any? Anecdotally, it seems that way because the clickbait industry has pounced on this, and one blog/youtube video about a KB issue gets shared millions of times. Apple claims there is not a higher percentage coming in for repairs compared to the scissor models, and I believe them. They may very well switch mechanisms for this machine, but could be due to more of a PR thing, since "butterfly keyboard" is now connected with negatives, based on this massive exaggeration and clickbait industry. I'm faster with the butterfly design, and I find typing is more comfortable and requires less effort. 

    And no, the price "increase" will e due to a fact that this will be a completely different machine. Just like how there's a price "increase" between the 8 and the X, or the XR and the XS. If you don't like the pricing, Apple sells other laptop models.

    Let's see... double the problem rate, and that doesn't count the number of people who don't being their keyboard in. You can't remove the keys to clear out debris, replacing the keyboard is a $700 repair that includes the entire top assembly... Yeah, sounds like a stellar design. Good ol' Jonny deceivers a medal for this one!
    chemengin1
  • Reply 37 of 46
    viclauyycviclauyyc Posts: 839member
    slurpy said:
    ireland said:
    Let’s see the arguments now from apologists who say there’s nothing wrong with the butterfly design. Turns out key-travel and reliability matter to people. Sadly, Apple will use this as yet one more justification for price increase.
    There is nothing wrong with the butterfly design. I've had multiple butterfly KBs with zero issues, as have many other people I know. There isn't a shred of real evidence that they're less reliable. Do you have any? Anecdotally, it seems that way because the clickbait industry has pounced on this, and one blog/youtube video about a KB issue gets shared millions of times. Apple claims there is not a higher percentage coming in for repairs compared to the scissor models, and I believe them. They may very well switch mechanisms for this machine, but could be due to more of a PR thing, since "butterfly keyboard" is now connected with negatives, based on this massive exaggeration and clickbait industry. I'm faster with the butterfly design, and I find typing is more comfortable and requires less effort. 

    And no, the price "increase" will e due to a fact that this will be a completely different machine. Just like how there's a price "increase" between the 8 and the X, or the XR and the XS. If you don't like the pricing, Apple sells other laptop models.

    I think the biggest problem with the butterfly keyboard is once it fails, the user need to replace the whole top case (logicboard,cpu, ram, flash drive and the GPU are all in the top case), which is more than half of the MBP. And the repair cost when it is out of warranty is crazy, given it might just has a failed key.

    This is why people is so pissed about it. No one will think it is reasonable to replace half of a car when it has a flat tire.

    It is more an Apple’s MBP design fault than fail key design.
    chemengin1
  • Reply 38 of 46
    tyler82tyler82 Posts: 1,029member
    Long Live 🦋
  • Reply 39 of 46
    macplusplusmacplusplus Posts: 2,111member
    viclauyyc said:
    slurpy said:
    ireland said:
    Let’s see the arguments now from apologists who say there’s nothing wrong with the butterfly design. Turns out key-travel and reliability matter to people. Sadly, Apple will use this as yet one more justification for price increase.
    There is nothing wrong with the butterfly design. I've had multiple butterfly KBs with zero issues, as have many other people I know. There isn't a shred of real evidence that they're less reliable. Do you have any? Anecdotally, it seems that way because the clickbait industry has pounced on this, and one blog/youtube video about a KB issue gets shared millions of times. Apple claims there is not a higher percentage coming in for repairs compared to the scissor models, and I believe them. They may very well switch mechanisms for this machine, but could be due to more of a PR thing, since "butterfly keyboard" is now connected with negatives, based on this massive exaggeration and clickbait industry. I'm faster with the butterfly design, and I find typing is more comfortable and requires less effort. 

    And no, the price "increase" will e due to a fact that this will be a completely different machine. Just like how there's a price "increase" between the 8 and the X, or the XR and the XS. If you don't like the pricing, Apple sells other laptop models.

    I think the biggest problem with the butterfly keyboard is once it fails, the user need to replace the whole top case (logicboard,cpu, ram, flash drive and the GPU are all in the top case), which is more than half of the MBP. And the repair cost when it is out of warranty is crazy, given it might just has a failed key.

    This is why people is so pissed about it. No one will think it is reasonable to replace half of a car when it has a flat tire.

    It is more an Apple’s MBP design fault than fail key design.
    Isn’t the keyboard repair free for eligible models (Almost all since 2015)? Besides, Apple mentions the replacement of one or few keys, or the whole keyboard. So the keyboard is replaceable even if it is bound to the top assembly.

    https://support.apple.com/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-notebooks
  • Reply 40 of 46
    croprcropr Posts: 1,090member
    And if Apple could additionally make the touch bar slightly shorter, so there is place for a real escape key, I would definitely buy such a machine
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