Trump expects Apple to build manufacturing plant in Texas

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 112
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tylersdad said:
    rob53 said:
    Has anyone been watching the construction of the Tesla Gigafactory in Shanghai? They broke ground in January 2019. This is a huge facility and the outside is already finished. They've moved inside and as of July 19, "The final closure of the Gigafactory 3 façade and the installation of doors and windows. It indicates that the Tesla G3 will soon begin to install equipment such as auto robots."

    Tell me what American company could do this in the same amount of time. If you think Chinese workers can't build anything then look at 90% of the things in your house. They were built by Chinese workers. American manufacturers gave up years ago. All we employ now are stupid MBAs. There used to be a time when the United States was trying to work with other countries for the good of the world. Not any more and that's just plain stupid and selfish.
    This has nothing to do with the ability of American companies versus Chinese companies and everything to do with the fact that building factories in China is FAR easier because they don’t have the same environmental restrictions we have in the US. Do they have to do environmental impact reports? No. Do they have the same permit process we have here? No. 

    Get rid of those restrictions and American companies would be able to compete. There would be a level playing field. The field right now is anything but level. 
    Yes, removing all regulations would help -- but you would also have to replace Fat, Lazy, poorly educated American workers with lean, hungry well educated Asian workers and the greedy American management with dedicated Asian managers.   That would work.   But wouldn't it be easier to just build the stuff in Asia?
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 62 of 112
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tylersdad said:
    rob53 said:
    Has anyone been watching the construction of the Tesla Gigafactory in Shanghai? They broke ground in January 2019. This is a huge facility and the outside is already finished. They've moved inside and as of July 19, "The final closure of the Gigafactory 3 façade and the installation of doors and windows. It indicates that the Tesla G3 will soon begin to install equipment such as auto robots."

    Tell me what American company could do this in the same amount of time. If you think Chinese workers can't build anything then look at 90% of the things in your house. They were built by Chinese workers. American manufacturers gave up years ago. All we employ now are stupid MBAs. There used to be a time when the United States was trying to work with other countries for the good of the world. Not any more and that's just plain stupid and selfish.
    This has nothing to do with the ability of American companies versus Chinese companies and everything to do with the fact that building factories in China is FAR easier because they don’t have the same environmental restrictions we have in the US. Do they have to do environmental impact reports? No. Do they have the same permit process we have here? No. 

    Get rid of those restrictions and American companies would be able to compete. There would be a level playing field. The field right now is anything but level. 
    Yes, removing all regulations would help -- but you would also have to replace Fat, Lazy, poorly educated American workers with lean, hungry well educated Asian workers and the greedy American management with dedicated Asian managers.   That would work.   But wouldn't it be easier to just build the stuff in Asia?
  • Reply 63 of 112
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 5,363member
    Trump needs to build up the infrastructure and skilled labor of the US before any significant manufacturing will come back to the US. There's a reason why China is chosen for electronics manufacturing. They have the skillset and the people have the mindset to do good work and willing to do the work. You're not going to grab 50,000+ workers in a short amount of time and train them here in the US. We're too worried about pay, how many days off we get, sick leave, not working next to this one person etc. We're a lazy society and until things like this change, manufacturing will never come back to the US. Maybe instead of Trump tweeting about his fantasy dreams he should be setting up a road map to make it happen and then perhaps companies like Apple, Dell, HP, Samsung, etc will bring back their manufacturing. Tweeting isn't going to fix things and I doubt you're going to convince any CEO of a US company by just tweeting they should build a plant in the US and then there would be no tariffs. 

    Honestly, I don't think he knows how to do it. He's just not smart enough. Hopefully we can get someone else in office who can do things other than just tweet out things and cause numerous scandals day after day with the things he says. 
    edited July 2019 GeorgeBMacroundaboutnowbrertech
  • Reply 64 of 112
    gilly33gilly33 Posts: 396member
    sirozha said:
    Cook doesn't  know what to do with the hundreds of billions that Apple is accumulated. Here’s a tip, Timmy. How about figuring out robotic manufacturing and becoming a service provider to other companies in the field of robotics?

    Otherwise, how does it feel, Timmy, to have outsourced manufacturing to China two decades ago to realize now that you have contributed to killing the American manufacturing skill set?

    You, Timmy, along with the politicians whom
    you bribed decades ago, are the traitors who surrendered the American manufacturing might to China. 
    Bring your proof of what you just said. Bribes and all. 
    roundaboutnow
  • Reply 65 of 112
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tzeshan said:
    tylersdad said:
    rob53 said:
    Has anyone been watching the construction of the Tesla Gigafactory in Shanghai? They broke ground in January 2019. This is a huge facility and the outside is already finished. They've moved inside and as of July 19, "The final closure of the Gigafactory 3 façade and the installation of doors and windows. It indicates that the Tesla G3 will soon begin to install equipment such as auto robots."

    Tell me what American company could do this in the same amount of time. If you think Chinese workers can't build anything then look at 90% of the things in your house. They were built by Chinese workers. American manufacturers gave up years ago. All we employ now are stupid MBAs. There used to be a time when the United States was trying to work with other countries for the good of the world. Not any more and that's just plain stupid and selfish.
    This has nothing to do with the ability of American companies versus Chinese companies and everything to do with the fact that building factories in China is FAR easier because they don’t have the same environmental restrictions we have in the US. Do they have to do environmental impact reports? No. Do they have the same permit process we have here? No. 

    Get rid of those restrictions and American companies would be able to compete. There would be a level playing field. The field right now is anything but level. 
    True! The EPA and the labor union caused the beginning of exodus of US companies to migrate to China in the 80s. And the semiconductor manufacturing was accused of generating poisonous pollutions in the 1980s.
    There's a couple things wrong with that statement:
    1)   In the 80's it wasn't China but Japan who were making better, cheaper steel; better cheaper cars; and better cheaper electronics than worn out U.S. factories could do.  But, instead of correcting the problem we tried (and failed) at protectionist tariffs supplemented by excuses like "They stole our ip!" or the tried and true:  "It's just Japanese knock-offs -- buy American!"

    2)  While the EPA (and OSHA) had a hand in it, that was just part of the equation:   The other part were unions that were using their leverage to run things into the ground (For instance, auto unions doing rolling strikes to play one manufacturer against the other in order to receive extraordinary wages and benefits). It was also greedy, incompetent U.S. corporate management who were content collecting their dividends and bonuses while their 100 year old plants fell into obsolescence.

    3) It was the U.S. education system that focused mostly on developing obedient mill workers:  "Just do enough to graduate from high school and then get a good, lifetime job in the mill".  While Asian students were learning science and technology.

    4)  It was also the hubris of believing that we were The Best and nobody could ever top us.
    CiprolcornchipcgWerksgilly33
  • Reply 66 of 112
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    cgWerks said:
    Compared to the U.S., China offers relatively cheap, high-quality and, perhaps most importantly, responsive labor. Apple production partners like Foxconn can deploy tens of thousands of workers on short notice, and run production facilities around the clock to meet strict deadlines. 
    My hunch is that more than skill, this is the big one. In the USA, they'd be dealing with labor laws and overtime, and the inability to just bring people on and let them go as needed. US labor laws (which aren't typically that great to begin with compared to other countries, or maybe California) make doing this kind of thing really hard/expensive... even if the pay-rate were identical (which it almost certainly isn't). And, then if unions get involved...


    100-140 years ago Carnegie and his side kick Frick knew how to deal with that problem:   When one group of workers became dissatisfied and uppity they just fired the whole bunch and imported a new bunch of workers from some other country.   When they tried to form a union and go on strike for humane, safe working conditions they brought in the Pinkertons to shut it down.   When the workers shot up the Pinkertons and sent them back down the river where they came from, they just brought in the State Militia to "keep the peace".  It worked.

    While doing that, they built the world's biggest most powerful industry ever and America became the industrial giant of the world.
    Mostly what we are living on today stems from the tears and blood of those workers and their ruthless management.
    cornchip
  • Reply 67 of 112
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    viclauyyc said:
    Shouldn’t Donald make sure everything US government and military uses are make in USA first? Eg, pass a law.

    not to mention the infamous MAGA hats  are mostly made in China! Shouldn’t he just set an example? 
    Better yet:  Maybe he should make sure that everything he buys or sells and everything in his properties are "Made in the USA".
    But, I doubt that he will practice what he preaches.   He's special.   He has the Biggest Brain.
    brertechgilly33
  • Reply 68 of 112
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    China took decades to make China a manufacturing powerhouse.
    They could do it because it is a totalitarian state.

    Manufacturing stuff in the U.S. is not the way to beat China.

    Attack your enemy where he is weak, not where he is strong.

    That's odd:   100-150 years ago the U.S. became the world's largest industrial giant and powerhouse without any "totalitarian state" -- just totalitarian owner/managers bringing in immigants willing to work 12 hour shifts 6-7 days a week at slave wages.  And, when they got uppity, they fired them all and brought in new workers from some other deprived country.
    edited July 2019 Ciprol
  • Reply 69 of 112
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member
    JWSC said:

    So, Tim is right, as far as his statement goes.  But let’s not forget who built up China - American bean counters who, it turns out, really didn’t know which beans they should be counting.

    First it was, ‘Chinese labor is cheap’ so let’s manufacture there.  And then ‘oh crap, the Chinese don’t have proper infrastructure’ so let’s get them started with that.  Then more second tier Chinese suppliers sprung up, and more infrastructure was put in place.  And then large regions such as Shenzhen turned into massive draws for subsistence farmers looking for a better life.  And they morphed into a large and highly skilled labor force.  And then even more infrastructure was put in place.

    But the bean counters neglected to take full account of the logistics needed to ship all the bits and pieces all around the world.  And what might have worked OK 20 years ago is woefully out of date today.  But we can’t change our sourcing now.  China has the infrastructure, right??!

    So yea, China has all that going for it now.  I begrudge them not.  But the US, and Europe, can and should have that too.

    All the excuses in the world can’t take away from the fact that American CEOs, CFOs and their assorted bean counters sold out their communities and their company rank and file to get a few extra pennies on the dollar out of product so they could please their stockholders and get those extra bonuses, while their US factories got shut down and their once loyal employees got a pick slip.  That’s a f-ing bitter pill to swallow.

    Tim, do better!

    Generally speaking:   American workers are fat and lazy and American executives greedy b's who only care about their next quarterly bonus and the value fo their stock options.

    America was built by hungry workers working for committed, dedicated owner/managers with vision and long range goals -- From Carnegie to Jobs.  When we get back to that, the jobs will return.   Not before.
    .
    We can make all the excuses.   But the fact remains:  the jobs went to those places who did the best, cheapest work -- despite our protectionist tariffs.  And, they won't be coming back until we can make things better and cheaper -- even if we try protectionist tariffs -- again.
    I worked for Steve at NeXT and Apple. He didn't give a shit about manufacturing in the US for workers. The NeXT plant was fully automated assembling all the Cube/Slabs and he bragged about it. He closed what plants were in Sacramento to reverse the trend of Apple failing and quickly hired Tim to become the Manufacturing guru abroad that turned Apple around.

    Steve knew in the late 80s manufacturing was going to China.

    Historically, Carnegie was an asshole who exploited cheap labor.
    edited July 2019 StrangeDaysWgkruegermacxpresspscooter63cat52Ciprol
  • Reply 70 of 112
    Obviously Apple is not going to help American manufacturing workers and manufacturing engineers without a push. Glad that Trump is doing that. 

    Of the entire product line the Pro may be the best model to take a bit of a margin hit on to do that. 

    China did not grow its infrastructure over 2-3 years and neither will Texas. Got to start somewhere. This is a generational shift. Without a command economy like China it’s gonna be harder but needs to be done. The only government levers we have to help manufacturing is NASA and military purchasing. 

    The major thing standing in the way of US labor cost is the cost of housing. That’s another topic
    cat52
  • Reply 71 of 112
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,113member
    News flash: President of a country advocates for companies to make things in their country and supply jobs to their people. These comments seem like the don't throw the baby with the bathwater situation.
    And yet he makes 85% of his own products in China. Oops. 

    https://qz.com/1483890/how-many-donald-trump-products-are-made-in-the-usa/

    Conveniently, his tariffs exclude clothing, benefitting his products and his daughter’s business:

    https://thinkprogress.org/ivanka-trump-clothing-tariffs-437840f07b83/

    Trump himself says he likes doing business with China. 

    https://youtu.be/RDrfE9I8_hs
    edited July 2019 GeorgeBMacroundaboutnowbrertechpscooter63OnPartyBusinessmuthuk_vanalingamcornchipspice-boygilly33
  • Reply 72 of 112
    Mid PrissMid Priss Posts: 5unconfirmed, member
     If Mac pros were the only way to receive Twitter posts, Donald Trump would issue billions in government subsidies for them. The mistake most people make, is thinking the president is a big picture guy. This is all about Donald Trump, reelection, and punishing those who might donate to his opponents. He cares nothing for the average American only those who support him.
    Rex Tillerson had him figured out!
    GeorgeBMacroundaboutnowFileMakerFellerspice-boygilly33
  • Reply 73 of 112
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 2,068member
    JWSC said:

    So, Tim is right, as far as his statement goes.  But let’s not forget who built up China - American bean counters who, it turns out, really didn’t know which beans they should be counting.

    First it was, ‘Chinese labor is cheap’ so let’s manufacture there.  And then ‘oh crap, the Chinese don’t have proper infrastructure’ so let’s get them started with that.  Then more second tier Chinese suppliers sprung up, and more infrastructure was put in place.  And then large regions such as Shenzhen turned into massive draws for subsistence farmers looking for a better life.  And they morphed into a large and highly skilled labor force.  And then even more infrastructure was put in place.

    But the bean counters neglected to take full account of the logistics needed to ship all the bits and pieces all around the world.  And what might have worked OK 20 years ago is woefully out of date today.  But we can’t change our sourcing now.  China has the infrastructure, right??!

    So yea, China has all that going for it now.  I begrudge them not.  But the US, and Europe, can and should have that too.

    All the excuses in the world can’t take away from the fact that American CEOs, CFOs and their assorted bean counters sold out their communities and their company rank and file to get a few extra pennies on the dollar out of product so they could please their stockholders and get those extra bonuses, while their US factories got shut down and their once loyal employees got a pick slip.  That’s a f-ing bitter pill to swallow.

    Tim, do better!

    Yep and Tim Cook as the Supply Chain genius was the architect of millions of good jobs in US disappearing along with middle class wages and benefits.    If Trumps actions were to live up to his words he would put tariffs on all Apples products including the iPhone.
    elijahgcat52cornchip
  • Reply 74 of 112
    MisterKitMisterKit Posts: 454member
    Lost in the conversation is the huge shift towards robotic manufacturing which tanks human employment globally. 
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 75 of 112
    Robot manufacturing in local markets is the only solution: 1. Invest billions in robotics. 2. Open dozens of small robot manufacturing and assembly plants in local markets around the world. 3. Productize the robotic technology for consumer household robots. Steve Jobs had this kind of vision but it is missing among the current Apple executives.
  • Reply 76 of 112
    bsimpsenbsimpsen Posts: 374member
    scott6666 said:
    The only government levers we have to help manufacturing is NASA and military purchasing.
    NASA's 2019 budget is $20 billion. US commercial satellite industry revenue in 2016 was $110 billion (out of $261B globally). NASA is not driving that bus.

    The F35 joint strike fighter has been perhaps the largest government spending boondoggle in US history. I wouldn't hold military purchasing up as a beacon of hope.

    Meanwhile, China is making massive investments in 5G ($150B by 2025), semiconductor manufacturing ($118B by 2025) and AI.

  • Reply 77 of 112
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    JWSC said:

    So, Tim is right, as far as his statement goes.  But let’s not forget who built up China - American bean counters who, it turns out, really didn’t know which beans they should be counting.

    First it was, ‘Chinese labor is cheap’ so let’s manufacture there.  And then ‘oh crap, the Chinese don’t have proper infrastructure’ so let’s get them started with that.  Then more second tier Chinese suppliers sprung up, and more infrastructure was put in place.  And then large regions such as Shenzhen turned into massive draws for subsistence farmers looking for a better life.  And they morphed into a large and highly skilled labor force.  And then even more infrastructure was put in place.

    But the bean counters neglected to take full account of the logistics needed to ship all the bits and pieces all around the world.  And what might have worked OK 20 years ago is woefully out of date today.  But we can’t change our sourcing now.  China has the infrastructure, right??!

    So yea, China has all that going for it now.  I begrudge them not.  But the US, and Europe, can and should have that too.

    All the excuses in the world can’t take away from the fact that American CEOs, CFOs and their assorted bean counters sold out their communities and their company rank and file to get a few extra pennies on the dollar out of product so they could please their stockholders and get those extra bonuses, while their US factories got shut down and their once loyal employees got a pick slip.  That’s a f-ing bitter pill to swallow.

    Tim, do better!

    Generally speaking:   American workers are fat and lazy and American executives greedy b's who only care about their next quarterly bonus and the value fo their stock options.

    America was built by hungry workers working for committed, dedicated owner/managers with vision and long range goals -- From Carnegie to Jobs.  When we get back to that, the jobs will return.   Not before.
    .
    We can make all the excuses.   But the fact remains:  the jobs went to those places who did the best, cheapest work -- despite our protectionist tariffs.  And, they won't be coming back until we can make things better and cheaper -- even if we try protectionist tariffs -- again.
    I worked for Steve at NeXT and Apple. He didn't give a shit about manufacturing in the US for workers. The NeXT plant was fully automated assembling all the Cube/Slabs and he bragged about it. He closed what plants were in Sacramento to reverse the trend of Apple failing and quickly hired Tim to become the Manufacturing guru abroad that turned Apple around.

    Steve knew in the late 80s manufacturing was going to China.

    Historically, Carnegie was an asshole who exploited cheap labor.
    Yes, Carnegie (or more correctly his side kick Frick) "Exploited cheap labor".   But that doesn't even half touch on it.   They essentially had slave labor that they felt they had no responsibility for and could not have cared less about.

    But, that combination of near slave labor combine with smart, ruthless management intent on growing the business above all else is what built American industry into the powerhouse of the world.

    While less ruthless, Steve had some similar traits:  All he cared about was making great products.  And because of that he DID value his "A Players"  -- but everybody else not contributing to the effort was as expendable as any machine..

    So Carnegie/Frick and Steve had two things in common:
    1)  They ONLY cared about the business.
    2)  They built great, successful businesses by focusing on the success of those business to the exclusion of all else

    Actually, there's a third, less known common trait:  None of them were in it for the money!  Frick for instance, although one of the world's richest men bought a used car and lived in the same relatively modest house he started in.

    So, back to my point:
    1)  Saying China succeeded because they are a "totalitarian state" misses the point and ignores our own history.
    2)  Until we get back to what Carnegie/Frick, Steve and China have done, industry will not return to America.  But no American worker wants to return to the 12hour/6-7 day a week jobs in hot, dangerous conditions at bare minimum wages and no benefits.  And, likewise, no business owner wants to become known as a ruthless despot.
    cgWerks
  • Reply 78 of 112
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    MisterKit said:
    Lost in the conversation is the huge shift towards robotic manufacturing which tanks human employment globally. 
    Yeh, when steel was king in the U.S. a mill employed 4,000 workers.   Now, it's 400.   Plus, back then we only had (for the most part) men working:  So we doubled the work force while cutting the jobs to a tenth.

    It's a bit like blaming Obama and the EPA for closing coal fired power plants along with the WV coal industry.   Actually, those old power plants were either converted to natural gas or just shut down because, without industry, we didn't need to run obsolete, expensive power plants.
    cornchip
  • Reply 79 of 112
    hagarhagar Posts: 120member
    Apple should just bite the bullet and produce everything for the American market in the US.

    True, it will take ages, causing huge delays, and spectacular price hikes. Not to mention they’ll have to import talent from overseas, so immigration will be a big hurdle too.

    Oh, and no import of raw materials and resources from Africa. Get your own coltan! And while at it: keep your trash instead of exporting it to third world countries that don’t have waste management systems. No exploiting of other countries anymore by the USA. That’ll a be the day!

    The hypocrisy of America First is truly shocking.
    SolielijahgOnPartyBusinessCiprolmuthuk_vanalingamcornchipFileMakerFellergilly33
  • Reply 80 of 112
    eightzeroeightzero Posts: 2,694member
    Kudos to the mods for leaving this forum up. Yes, plenty of political manifestos, but some entertaining and occasionally insightful comments. 
    pscooter63JWSCnubusapplesnorangesmuthuk_vanalingamDAalsethcornchipgilly33
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