Pre-announcing HomeKit support is a well-worn marketing device for IoT manufacturers that have little, if any, intention to deliver. At this stage it’s fair to label such companies as frauds...
Companies that are in the business of making money always have to adapt to market demands. There's nothing fraudulent about cutting your losses and bailing out of a venture...
Eh, it’s called fraudulent practice at worst and patently dishonest opportunism at best... ...they should offer their dupes/marks/suckers/victims a full refund for whichever “HomeKit” SKU they purchased, once it is obvious (or admitted) that HomeKit capability will never be delivered. This marketing behavior is known as “bait and switch” and there are laws in place to guard against this FRAUDULENT practice.
It’s perfectly fine for businesses to change their product plans provided they have not announced them on a shipping product (or a product consumers have been able to irretrievably commit the funds.). However if they have announced such features, then consumers who purchased the product in anticipation of the delivery of those features can be entitled to sue for damages under consumer protection laws of false advertising. (As common with bait and switch.) The case would depend on whether or not the company gave certainty that the feature would be delivered such that a consumer who purchased the product could have reasonably expected that the feature would be delivered.
I.E. It is fraudulent behaviour and so it is merely a matter of those at a loss to take action.
Are you sure? What about Airpower and people who bought iPhones/Apple Watches in anticipation that Apple would be shipping it within a matter of weeks? Seems like if that were factual there would have been yet another class-action since lawyers seem to look for any reason to file one.
Errrnt. Nobody bought an AirPower, it was never a shipping product, which he specifically cited as why this was a BS move:
"It’s perfectly fine for businesses to change their product plans provided they have not announced them on a shipping product"
Now if you're claiming people bought iPhones in anticipation of AirPower...that's...that...just doesn't make any sense. People buy accessories for the primary driver, not the other way 'round. You're really squinting those eyes to make this not a false equivalency.
Very good. You don’t need to surrender your Wi-Fi password to Kasa Smart whose servers are hosted in the Communist Party China.
So this company is Chinese?
Yes, TP-Link is Mainland Chinese.
I'm not really arguing with you, but a company with a physical presence in country X does not necessarily mean that they are incorporated in country X. For example, Foxconn has its factories in mainland China but it's not a Chinese company - it's Taiwanese. And yet the press usually calls them a "Chinese company."
According to China, being Taiwanese is being Chinese. You know, since the Chinese government claims it owns Taiwan.
Very good. You don’t need to surrender your Wi-Fi password to Kasa Smart whose servers are hosted in the Communist Party China.
So this company is Chinese?
Yes, TP-Link is Mainland Chinese.
Good to know. Want as less Chinese electronic products in my home as possible. You never know..
Do you plan to sell your iPhone or just scrap it?
iPhone isn't made by a Chinese company. It is manufactured in China, but there is essentially zero risk that the Chinese government can tell Apple what spy tech to include in the product. And Apple would discover it if they did it without telling Apple. This is not the case with Chinese companies, which, per the US intelligence agencies, are "effectively an arm of the state".
I have spent more than a little time using, working with and helping set up smart home systems and Apple HomeKit is behind and risks falling further behind.
Lots of stuff that supports Google and Amazon, but not HomeKit or not fully or whatever. With Apple’s financial and engineering resources this simply should not be the case.
Apple should pull HomeKit out of iOS the way Apple Pay team operates independently of Craig’s. I think Craig has more than he can chew right now.
I have spent more than a little time using, working with and helping set up smart home systems and Apple HomeKit is behind and risks falling further behind.
Lots of stuff that supports Google and Amazon, but not HomeKit or not fully or whatever. With Apple’s financial and engineering resources this simply should not be the case.
Apple should pull HomeKit out of iOS the way Apple Pay team operates independently of Craig’s. I think Craig has more than he can chew right now.
Agree. HomeKit seems to be bumbling along with limited third party support and suffers from lack of robustness. It seems Apple has no HomeKit champion to push the complete vision through.
Pre-announcing HomeKit support is a well-worn marketing device for IoT manufacturers that have little, if any, intention to deliver. At this stage it’s fair to label such companies as frauds...
Companies that are in the business of making money always have to adapt to market demands. There's nothing fraudulent about cutting your losses and bailing out of a venture...
Eh, it’s called fraudulent practice at worst and patently dishonest opportunism at best... ...they should offer their dupes/marks/suckers/victims a full refund for whichever “HomeKit” SKU they purchased, once it is obvious (or admitted) that HomeKit capability will never be delivered. This marketing behavior is known as “bait and switch” and there are laws in place to guard against this FRAUDULENT practice.
It’s perfectly fine for businesses to change their product plans provided they have not announced them on a shipping product (or a product consumers have been able to irretrievably commit the funds.). However if they have announced such features, then consumers who purchased the product in anticipation of the delivery of those features can be entitled to sue for damages under consumer protection laws of false advertising. (As common with bait and switch.) The case would depend on whether or not the company gave certainty that the feature would be delivered such that a consumer who purchased the product could have reasonably expected that the feature would be delivered.
I.E. It is fraudulent behaviour and so it is merely a matter of those at a loss to take action.
Are you sure? What about Airpower and people who bought iPhones/Apple Watches in anticipation that Apple would be shipping it within a matter of weeks? Seems like if that were factual there would have been yet another class-action since lawyers seem to look for any reason to file one.
Errrnt. Nobody bought an AirPower, it was never a shipping product, which he specifically cited as why this was a BS move:
"It’s perfectly fine for businesses to change their product plans provided they have not announced them on a shipping product"
Now if you're claiming people bought iPhones in anticipation of AirPower...that's...that...just doesn't make any sense. People buy accessories for the primary driver, not the other way 'round. You're really squinting those eyes to make this not a false equivalency.
Go back and read the iPhone X threads early on, the new Airpods thread where buying the wireless charging case along with it was debated, and then again when the Xr/Xs was released where even the setup documentation refers to it as an actual Apple product for the new iPhone, just not yet shipping. Heck, how many times did Apple discuss Airpower as a real product and coming soon, and you admonished other posters to just be patient? There were folks buying Apple's wireless charging case for the Airpod (which wasn't cheap at the time) simply because "Airpower is on the way". Of course there were people who factored the Airpower charging mat into their purchasing decision.
So getting back to my comment I'm not so sure there's any basis to sue a company for not releasing a product or service after pre-announcing it. If there were some lawyer would certainly have tried to sue Apple over Airpower, whether successfully or not.
Very good. You don’t need to surrender your Wi-Fi password to Kasa Smart whose servers are hosted in the Communist Party China.
So this company is Chinese?
Yes, TP-Link is Mainland Chinese.
I'm not really arguing with you, but a company with a physical presence in country X does not necessarily mean that they are incorporated in country X. For example, Foxconn has its factories in mainland China but it's not a Chinese company - it's Taiwanese. And yet the press usually calls them a "Chinese company."
According to China, being Taiwanese is being Chinese. You know, since the Chinese government claims it owns Taiwan.
And China tends to get persnickety when others don't pretend to believe it.
Pre-announcing HomeKit support is a well-worn marketing device for IoT manufacturers that have little, if any, intention to deliver. At this stage it’s fair to label such companies as frauds...
Companies that are in the business of making money always have to adapt to market demands. There's nothing fraudulent about cutting your losses and bailing out of a venture...
Eh, it’s called fraudulent practice at worst and patently dishonest opportunism at best... ...they should offer their dupes/marks/suckers/victims a full refund for whichever “HomeKit” SKU they purchased, once it is obvious (or admitted) that HomeKit capability will never be delivered. This marketing behavior is known as “bait and switch” and there are laws in place to guard against this FRAUDULENT practice.
It’s perfectly fine for businesses to change their product plans provided they have not announced them on a shipping product (or a product consumers have been able to irretrievably commit the funds.). However if they have announced such features, then consumers who purchased the product in anticipation of the delivery of those features can be entitled to sue for damages under consumer protection laws of false advertising. (As common with bait and switch.) The case would depend on whether or not the company gave certainty that the feature would be delivered such that a consumer who purchased the product could have reasonably expected that the feature would be delivered.
I.E. It is fraudulent behaviour and so it is merely a matter of those at a loss to take action.
Are you sure? What about Airpower and people who bought iPhones/Apple Watches in anticipation that Apple would be shipping it within a matter of weeks? Seems like if that were factual there would have been yet another class-action since lawyers seem to look for any reason to file one.
While Apple announced the product, there was never an opportunity to purchase it. The iPhone’s wireless charging features can be utilised by any Qi compliant wireless charger (i.e. basically all of them on the market.) As for the Apple Watch, it already comes with its own wireless charger. A person can’t be damaged by a product they never bought, for a feature they could already utilise with any standard wireless charging product on the market.
Is it even possible to “update” a hardware product to be HomeKit compatible? Doesn’t Apple require each unit to be equipped by a specific component that incorporates the HomeKit “identity”?
Is it even possible to “update” a hardware product to be HomeKit compatible? Doesn’t Apple require each unit to be equipped by a specific component that incorporates the HomeKit “identity”?
Not any longer. At one point there was a "hardware component" but using software code instead is now OK.
I have spent more than a little time using, working with and helping set up smart home systems and Apple HomeKit is behind and risks falling further behind.
Lots of stuff that supports Google and Amazon, but not HomeKit or not fully or whatever. With Apple’s financial and engineering resources this simply should not be the case.
Apple should pull HomeKit out of iOS the way Apple Pay team operates independently of Craig’s. I think Craig has more than he can chew right now.
Agree. HomeKit seems to be bumbling along with limited third party support and suffers from lack of robustness. It seems Apple has no HomeKit champion to push the complete vision through.
Third'ed.
This is what folks who complain about Apple dumping Airport routers and displays from their lineup don't seem to get… Maps and Siri and Homekit and Apple Pay and Music… these are all huge initiatives and it's astounding that Apple is able to stay on top of it all without turning into a beast like Microsoft.
but while the third-party support is definitely an issue… lack of robustness? Once HomeKit is set up, it works great. I feel like the problem is more one of marketing than actual technology.
Pre-announcing HomeKit support is a well-worn marketing device for IoT manufacturers that have little, if any, intention to deliver. At this stage it’s fair to label such companies as frauds...
Companies that are in the business of making money always have to adapt to market demands. There's nothing fraudulent about cutting your losses and bailing out of a venture...
Eh, it’s called fraudulent practice at worst and patently dishonest opportunism at best... ...they should offer their dupes/marks/suckers/victims a full refund for whichever “HomeKit” SKU they purchased, once it is obvious (or admitted) that HomeKit capability will never be delivered. This marketing behavior is known as “bait and switch” and there are laws in place to guard against this FRAUDULENT practice.
It’s perfectly fine for businesses to change their product plans provided they have not announced them on a shipping product (or a product consumers have been able to irretrievably commit the funds.). However if they have announced such features, then consumers who purchased the product in anticipation of the delivery of those features can be entitled to sue for damages under consumer protection laws of false advertising. (As common with bait and switch.) The case would depend on whether or not the company gave certainty that the feature would be delivered such that a consumer who purchased the product could have reasonably expected that the feature would be delivered.
I.E. It is fraudulent behaviour and so it is merely a matter of those at a loss to take action.
Are you sure? What about Airpower and people who bought iPhones/Apple Watches in anticipation that Apple would be shipping it within a matter of weeks? Seems like if that were factual there would have been yet another class-action since lawyers seem to look for any reason to file one.
I agree. Fraud implies deliberate deception and intent to deceive. Many companies, including Apple with its aborted Airpower charging product, can be fully committed with their best and most honorable intentions of delivering a product and still fail to deliver - for any number of reasons. Does it make them look inept when they made promises that they did not keep? Absolutely. Do real people get "hurt" when someone else makes a promise but fails to deliver? Sure. Happens every day. But proving that the company/party who failed to deliver on a promise, especially when there was no upfront penalty clause or prenuptial agreement in place, has committed a crime is a whole different story. Like gatorguy said, if fraud has been committed the lawyers will be all over this with a class action lawsuit.
Getting burned by failed promises isn't new to anyone on this forum. I know it's cold to say it, but if you're financially or emotionally dependent on someone delivering on a promise and you don't have any recourse for the promise coming up empty, then you've stepped into a self inflicted trap by overlooking what you knew was an obvious risk. When you bought the Ring device that did not come with HomeKit support from Day 1 you knew you were taking a risk regardless of what Ring or Amazon was saying. Sometimes risk taking pays off and sometimes it bites you in the ass. If you want to bite back, hire a lawyer, which entails a whole other set of risks.
Pushing all the armchair lawyering aside, because no matter which way it goes someone will be pissed off, I think HomeKit is seriously lagging with respect to third-party adoption compared to competing ecosystems. Amazon has so many more touch points into its ecosystem with the plethora of inexpensive Echo devices. Amazon's close coupling with Ring only enhances the completeness of their system. Amazon's automation/scripting/routines for integrating products together is very easy to use. HomeKit still feels like a bucket of gadgets and not a system, and the selection of HomeKit gadgets is rather weak. If I were going to market with a low margin $20 smart plug I cannot imagine HomeKit being my first choice of the market to go after. Not yet, but maybe Apple will do something to change the overall landscape.
Very good. You don’t need to surrender your Wi-Fi password to Kasa Smart whose servers are hosted in the Communist Party China.
So this company is Chinese?
Yes, TP-Link is Mainland Chinese.
I'm not really arguing with you, but a company with a physical presence in country X does not necessarily mean that they are incorporated in country X. For example, Foxconn has its factories in mainland China but it's not a Chinese company - it's Taiwanese. And yet the press usually calls them a "Chinese company."
According to China, being Taiwanese is being Chinese. You know, since the Chinese government claims it owns Taiwan.
Very good. You don’t need to surrender your Wi-Fi password to Kasa Smart whose servers are hosted in the Communist Party China.
So this company is Chinese?
Yes, TP-Link is Mainland Chinese.
Good to know. Want as less Chinese electronic products in my home as possible. You never know..
Do you plan to sell your iPhone or just scrap it?
iPhone isn't made by a Chinese company. It is manufactured in China, but there is essentially zero risk that the Chinese government can tell Apple what spy tech to include in the product. And Apple would discover it if they did it without telling Apple. This is not the case with Chinese companies, which, per the US intelligence agencies, are "effectively an arm of the state".
Is that why they stamp "made in USA" on it? Sorry, but you can't have it both ways: It was made in China. So if you condemn everything made in China, then ya gotta scrap your iPhone and wait for Trump to bring production back here to the USA! USA! USA!
Very good. You don’t need to surrender your Wi-Fi password to Kasa Smart whose servers are hosted in the Communist Party China.
So this company is Chinese?
Yes, TP-Link is Mainland Chinese.
I'm not really arguing with you, but a company with a physical presence in country X does not necessarily mean that they are incorporated in country X. For example, Foxconn has its factories in mainland China but it's not a Chinese company - it's Taiwanese. And yet the press usually calls them a "Chinese company."
According to China, being Taiwanese is being Chinese. You know, since the Chinese government claims it owns Taiwan.
And China tends to get persnickety when others don't pretend to believe it.
Yeh, Yeh, just like we get persnickety when people claim we don't own California.
Very good. You don’t need to surrender your Wi-Fi password to Kasa Smart whose servers are hosted in the Communist Party China.
So this company is Chinese?
Yes, TP-Link is Mainland Chinese.
I'm not really arguing with you, but a company with a physical presence in country X does not necessarily mean that they are incorporated in country X. For example, Foxconn has its factories in mainland China but it's not a Chinese company - it's Taiwanese. And yet the press usually calls them a "Chinese company."
According to China, being Taiwanese is being Chinese. You know, since the Chinese government claims it owns Taiwan.
And China tends to get persnickety when others don't pretend to believe it.
Yeh, Yeh, just like we get persnickety when people claim we don't own California.
I quick read through Wikipedia would've stopped you from posting this and embarrassing yourself in public.
Very good. You don’t need to surrender your Wi-Fi password to Kasa Smart whose servers are hosted in the Communist Party China.
So this company is Chinese?
Yes, TP-Link is Mainland Chinese.
I'm not really arguing with you, but a company with a physical presence in country X does not necessarily mean that they are incorporated in country X. For example, Foxconn has its factories in mainland China but it's not a Chinese company - it's Taiwanese. And yet the press usually calls them a "Chinese company."
According to China, being Taiwanese is being Chinese. You know, since the Chinese government claims it owns Taiwan.
And China tends to get persnickety when others don't pretend to believe it.
Yeh, Yeh, just like we get persnickety when people claim we don't own California.
I quick read through Wikipedia would've stopped you from posting this and embarrassing yourself in public.
What specifically in Wikipedia tells you that Hong Kong is not a Chinese territory -- as in (so far) "One country, two systems"? You can't just make stuff up to suit your political agenda like our president seems to do.
Fraud implies deliberate deception and intent to deceive.
No, fraud requires intent, not implies it, at least as far as courts are concerned. Some lay person in a forum shouting 'Fraud' is usually really only promulgating 'F ud', without actual knowledge of intent. The same lay person fails to realize proving intent is usually difficult to impossible, in court. So the plaintiff is left to pile on circumstantial evidence that allows a reasonable conclusion of guilt. Baffling juries isn't all that hard in those instances. To wit- it doesn't matter what you know, it's what you can prove.
Very good. You don’t need to surrender your Wi-Fi password to Kasa Smart whose servers are hosted in the Communist Party China.
So this company is Chinese?
Yes, TP-Link is Mainland Chinese.
I'm not really arguing with you, but a company with a physical presence in country X does not necessarily mean that they are incorporated in country X. For example, Foxconn has its factories in mainland China but it's not a Chinese company - it's Taiwanese. And yet the press usually calls them a "Chinese company."
According to China, being Taiwanese is being Chinese. You know, since the Chinese government claims it owns Taiwan.
And China tends to get persnickety when others don't pretend to believe it.
Yeh, Yeh, just like we get persnickety when people claim we don't own California.
I quick read through Wikipedia would've stopped you from posting this and embarrassing yourself in public.
What specifically in Wikipedia tells you that Hong Kong is not a Chinese territory -- as in (so far) "One country, two systems"? You can't just make stuff up to suit your political agenda like our president seems to do.
Um, @GeorgeBMac, ;the comment that started that part of the discussion was about Foxconn and Taiwan, not Hong Kong.
Comments
"It’s perfectly fine for businesses to change their product plans provided they have not announced them on a shipping product"
Now if you're claiming people bought iPhones in anticipation of AirPower...that's...that...just doesn't make any sense. People buy accessories for the primary driver, not the other way 'round. You're really squinting those eyes to make this not a false equivalency.
According to China, being Taiwanese is being Chinese. You know, since the Chinese government claims it owns Taiwan.
iPhone isn't made by a Chinese company. It is manufactured in China, but there is essentially zero risk that the Chinese government can tell Apple what spy tech to include in the product. And Apple would discover it if they did it without telling Apple. This is not the case with Chinese companies, which, per the US intelligence agencies, are "effectively an arm of the state".
Were you away on another planet? I don't think so since I think I recall you being one of the voices suggesting the Apple Watch compatible charging case, Airpower is on the way. Am I mistaken? I know for almost certain you discussed how amazing it was going to be, and how much engineering was going into it. As far as you were concerned the product was a done deal.
https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/206723/all-three-2018-iphones-to-support-wireless-charging-airpower-mat-to-cost-150-rumors-say/p2
https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210126/apples-airpower-charging-mat-launching-in-late-march-possibly-in-large-quantities/p2
So getting back to my comment I'm not so sure there's any basis to sue a company for not releasing a product or service after pre-announcing it. If there were some lawyer would certainly have tried to sue Apple over Airpower, whether successfully or not.
This is what folks who complain about Apple dumping Airport routers and displays from their lineup don't seem to get… Maps and Siri and Homekit and Apple Pay and Music… these are all huge initiatives and it's astounding that Apple is able to stay on top of it all without turning into a beast like Microsoft.
but while the third-party support is definitely an issue… lack of robustness? Once HomeKit is set up, it works great. I feel like the problem is more one of marketing than actual technology.
Getting burned by failed promises isn't new to anyone on this forum. I know it's cold to say it, but if you're financially or emotionally dependent on someone delivering on a promise and you don't have any recourse for the promise coming up empty, then you've stepped into a self inflicted trap by overlooking what you knew was an obvious risk. When you bought the Ring device that did not come with HomeKit support from Day 1 you knew you were taking a risk regardless of what Ring or Amazon was saying. Sometimes risk taking pays off and sometimes it bites you in the ass. If you want to bite back, hire a lawyer, which entails a whole other set of risks.
Pushing all the armchair lawyering aside, because no matter which way it goes someone will be pissed off, I think HomeKit is seriously lagging with respect to third-party adoption compared to competing ecosystems. Amazon has so many more touch points into its ecosystem with the plethora of inexpensive Echo devices. Amazon's close coupling with Ring only enhances the completeness of their system. Amazon's automation/scripting/routines for integrating products together is very easy to use. HomeKit still feels like a bucket of gadgets and not a system, and the selection of HomeKit gadgets is rather weak. If I were going to market with a low margin $20 smart plug I cannot imagine HomeKit being my first choice of the market to go after. Not yet, but maybe Apple will do something to change the overall landscape.
Sorry, but you can't have it both ways: It was made in China. So if you condemn everything made in China, then ya gotta scrap your iPhone and wait for Trump to bring production back here to the USA! USA! USA!
You can't just make stuff up to suit your political agenda like our president seems to do.