Both Apple and China will be here, strong and able, long after Trump and his China vendetta have become an embarrassing memories like the Bush and his Iraq war....
It’s not a Trump vendetta - the Obama administration and prior admins all complained about these same topics with the corrupt China — IP theft, currency manipulation, corporate espionage, human rights, etc.
Never seen someone so willing to overlook that China is an authoritarian regime that kills its own people and routinely squashes human rights, just because you don’t like Trump. (I don’t either, but I’m unwilling to whitewash China because of it)
If Toyota can build 'precise' Prius's in Alabama, (of all places)....surely Apple can assemble devices in the USA!
It really comes down to good management and, most importantly, placing stake-holder's rights above shareholder's rights.
That is to say, a corporation's responsibility is to it's stakeholders, which includes; workers, customers, the environment/(read: Our dear and fragile planet!), citizens, and, yes, shareholders.
How did we get to assembling iPhones/Mac's in China and flying them in a fleet of 747's belching burnt fuel into the atmosphere?
Hmmmm...
Question (APPLE MANAGEMENT): How do we get iPhones into the hands of Americans?
Answer: (APPLE MANAGEMENT): I know, let's use dead dinosaurs and pollute the planet at the same time....
Me: Whaaaaaat?????
Me: Just saying.
P.S. I applaud Apple for their dedication to exquisite design and environmental/Recycling efforts, but....Huh?
Any thoughts?
I don't think you can compare assembling a car to assembling a computer. Those are 2 totally different animals.
You do realize the States use to manufacture circuit boards, in large numbers, back when it was considerably more difficult and labor intensive than it is now?
Define more difficult. I have a hard time believing the circuit boards of decades past were complex or challenging than the components, systems on a chip, and circuitry of modern miniaturized computers that fit in our pocket.
That’s the whole rub with making things in China. It makes them affordable compared to making them here. No minimum wage, no age limits on hiring, no enforcement of preventing overworking factory workers, giving them prison like quarters to live when they aren’t working...
It's impressive how Trump has created a distortion field that's more pervasive on the American society than what Jobs did back then. If one looked outside the field, one would find that China has employment laws with minimum wage, age, working conditions amongst many others we take for granted. The world is changing rapidly and societies and countries are also evolving rapidly. Of course, keep a large population hostile and in the dark is of benefit for political aims.
This is the same China that talked about a routine PLA rotation into Hong Kong today, but didn't actually release any PLA back to Mainland China. That's a likely predictor of mass arrests in Hong Kong for a huge portion of its population that want to maintain the freedoms that they currently have.
And no, China does not have a legal system anywhere close to what we in the U.S. or any other Western country has, so your note about "China has employment laws with minimum wage, age and working conditions" doesn't actually exist outside of what the CCP allows. and they can be very fickle, and very corrupt.
How many kids were murdered at Kent State? I forget. Was it more or less than the number of unarmed black kids killed by U.S. police every month? Was it more or less than the number of migrant kids who have died this year while in U.S. custody?
We perhaps shouldn't be throwing so many stones.
What aboutism is a logical fallacy. You can’t cite that there are isolated police killings in the US and therefore invalidate criticism of China’s national policies of murdering and imprisoning political dissidents and human rights protestors. Errnnt. Nope, what aboutism is a variant of ad hominem fallacy.
China is among the worst on human rights. That you work so hard to obscure this is suspect.
Both Apple and China will be here, strong and able, long after Trump and his China vendetta have become an embarrassing memories like the Bush and his Iraq war....
It’s not a Trump vendetta - the Obama administration and prior admins all complained about these same topics with the corrupt China — IP theft, currency manipulation, corporate espionage, human rights, etc.
Never seen someone so willing to overlook that China is an authoritarian regime that kills its own people and routinely squashes human rights, just because you don’t like Trump. (I don’t either, but I’m unwilling to whitewash China because of it)
Nice spin! But no... Obama didn't do stupid things -- such as make mountains out of molehills or initiate unwinnable wars. And, the form of government is merely an excuse that has nothing to do with trade. But meanwhile, Trump cozies up to Putin's Russia and other dictatorships -- but his supporters criticize China for being totalitarian!
As for killing its citizens: American police kill far more unarmed black boys than anything in China. And, Chinese children don't have to fear being gunned down in their classrooms while it's government offers thoughts and prayers. Nor do immigrants have to fear having their children taken away and put in cages to die.
No, I don't accept your spin. It is a Trump vendetta against China -- because he realizes they will soon overtake the U.S. as the world's leading economy. So, he Trump's up reasons to attack them.
In all the documentary footage that I've seen of Apple and other factories, individual workers are doing small repetitive tasks. Circuit board assemblies are more than likely completely automated and assembling an iPhone from the few boards and battery is actually quite easy. Now the individual parts may still need to be manufactured elsewhere, but the automated manufacturing and the assembly could be done in the U.S., in Europe and elsewhere if there's a will. Due to the automation, it might not actually create all that many jobs.
The real issue is that while Chinese wages have increased over the years, it's still cheaper than the U.S., there are no labor unions to contend with and workers work 6 day weeks and 10 hours a day. So I think Apple is being disingenuous.
I also think the "lack of skill" argument is bogus because of the above, because of the examples that Christopher126 gives and because manufacturing output in the U.S. actually peaked two summers ago, but it didn't result in a lot of job growth because so much was automated.
I have always felt that manufacturing should take place near where the products are sold so that the communities where the products are purchased get the benefit of the jobs.
And if Apple really cared about the environment, they wouldn't create products that can't be repaired by third parties and where end users can't replace/upgrade battery, memory and storage.
I also think Apple is holding out to see if Trump isn't re-elected with the expectation that if he isn't and especially if the Senate flips, all of the tariffs will disappear with the next administration. Or that Trump will change his mind again as he often does or that they'll actually be an agreement with China.
That’s the whole rub with making things in China. It makes them affordable compared to making them here. No minimum wage, no age limits on hiring, no enforcement of preventing overworking factory workers, giving them prison like quarters to live when they aren’t working. It’s the same thing that happened here in the early 1900s.
Except that’s all wrong, of course. They do have minimum wages, age limits, overtime restrictions, etc. Haven’t you been paying attention? Apple even has taken on auditing this stuff.
Define "minimum". Is it a living wage? A lot of Americans don't make a living wage why would China's sweatshops be any better?
If Toyota can build 'precise' Prius's in Alabama, (of all places)....surely Apple can assemble devices in the USA!
It really comes down to good management and, most importantly, placing stake-holder's rights above shareholder's rights.
That is to say, a corporation's responsibility is to it's stakeholders, which includes; workers, customers, the environment/(read: Our dear and fragile planet!), citizens, and, yes, shareholders.
How did we get to assembling iPhones/Mac's in China and flying them in a fleet of 747's belching burnt fuel into the atmosphere?
Hmmmm...
Question (APPLE MANAGEMENT): How do we get iPhones into the hands of Americans?
Answer: (APPLE MANAGEMENT): I know, let's use dead dinosaurs and pollute the planet at the same time....
Me: Whaaaaaat?????
Me: Just saying.
P.S. I applaud Apple for their dedication to exquisite design and environmental/Recycling efforts, but....Huh?
Any thoughts?
I don't think you can compare assembling a car to assembling a computer. Those are 2 totally different animals.
You do realize the States use to manufacture circuit boards, in large numbers, back when it was considerably more difficult and labor intensive than it is now?
Define more difficult. I have a hard time believing the circuit boards of decades past were complex or challenging than the components, systems on a chip, and circuitry of modern miniaturized computers that fit in our pocket.
The older through hole technology required more parts to insert and place, as well as more machines and steps to do it. We use to have big sequencers where you had to load all the axial components and put them in to a sequence for the insertion machines. The amount of care needed to handle these components and other parts such as IC's, so leads didn't bend was a pain in the rear.
Some similar type of work is still required. You still load placement machines with reels, however you no longer have the added sequence reel. The packaging of parts is more robust. Components now sit in individual pockets and for the most part do not have exposed leads where you have to worry about them getting physically damaged. Most complex SOC's are now BGA's and thankfully improvements to machine AI allows them to be place more accurately and quicker than ever. You can pretty much automated the entire process from screen printing the solder on the boards to loading finished product in boxes. The only part of the process that still requires manual labor is in-circuit testing and burn-in.
All in all, running a high volume low mix factory is a dream now compared to the time when we first started shipping these assemblies overseas in the first place..
Both Apple and China will be here, strong and able, long after Trump and his China vendetta have become an embarrassing memories like the Bush and his Iraq war....
It’s not a Trump vendetta - the Obama administration and prior admins all complained about these same topics with the corrupt China — IP theft, currency manipulation, corporate espionage, human rights, etc.
Never seen someone so willing to overlook that China is an authoritarian regime that kills its own people and routinely squashes human rights, just because you don’t like Trump. (I don’t either, but I’m unwilling to whitewash China because of it)
Nice spin! But no... Obama didn't do stupid things -- such as make mountains out of molehills or initiate unwinnable wars. And, the form of government is merely an excuse that has nothing to do with trade. But meanwhile, Trump cozies up to Putin's Russia and other dictatorships -- but his supporters criticize China for being totalitarian!
As for killing its citizens: American police kill far more unarmed black boys than anything in China. And, Chinese children don't have to fear being gunned down in their classrooms while it's government offers thoughts and prayers. Nor do immigrants have to fear having their children taken away and put in cages to die.
No, I don't accept your spin. It is a Trump vendetta against China -- because he realizes they will soon overtake the U.S. as the world's leading economy. So, he Trump's up reasons to attack them.
Funny you go back 49 years and yet completely skips events like the Tiananmen Square protests of which you aren't even allowed to speak of in China.
And yes Obama did make mountains out of molehills, "Cambridge police acted stupidly" ring a bell? How about the Arab Spring?
If Toyota can build 'precise' Prius's in Alabama, (of all places)....surely Apple can assemble devices in the USA!
It really comes down to good management and, most importantly, placing stake-holder's rights above shareholder's rights.
That is to say, a corporation's responsibility is to it's stakeholders, which includes; workers, customers, the environment/(read: Our dear and fragile planet!), citizens, and, yes, shareholders.
How did we get to assembling iPhones/Mac's in China and flying them in a fleet of 747's belching burnt fuel into the atmosphere?
Hmmmm...
Question (APPLE MANAGEMENT): How do we get iPhones into the hands of Americans?
Answer: (APPLE MANAGEMENT): I know, let's use dead dinosaurs and pollute the planet at the same time....
Me: Whaaaaaat?????
Me: Just saying.
P.S. I applaud Apple for their dedication to exquisite design and environmental/Recycling efforts, but....Huh?
Any thoughts?
I don't think you can compare assembling a car to assembling a computer. Those are 2 totally different animals.
You do realize the States use to manufacture circuit boards, in large numbers, back when it was considerably more difficult and labor intensive than it is now?
Define more difficult. I have a hard time believing the circuit boards of decades past were complex or challenging than the components, systems on a chip, and circuitry of modern miniaturized computers that fit in our pocket.
Both Apple and China will be here, strong and able, long after Trump and his China vendetta have become an embarrassing memories like the Bush and his Iraq war....
It’s not a Trump vendetta - the Obama administration and prior admins all complained about these same topics with the corrupt China — IP theft, currency manipulation, corporate espionage, human rights, etc.
Never seen someone so willing to overlook that China is an authoritarian regime that kills its own people and routinely squashes human rights, just because you don’t like Trump. (I don’t either, but I’m unwilling to whitewash China because of it)
Nice spin! But no... Obama didn't do stupid things -- such as make mountains out of molehills or initiate unwinnable wars. And, the form of government is merely an excuse that has nothing to do with trade. But meanwhile, Trump cozies up to Putin's Russia and other dictatorships -- but his supporters criticize China for being totalitarian!
As for killing its citizens: American police kill far more unarmed black boys than anything in China. And, Chinese children don't have to fear being gunned down in their classrooms while it's government offers thoughts and prayers. Nor do immigrants have to fear having their children taken away and put in cages to die.
No, I don't accept your spin. It is a Trump vendetta against China -- because he realizes they will soon overtake the U.S. as the world's leading economy. So, he Trump's up reasons to attack them.
Funny he goes back 49 years and yet completely skips events like the Tiananmen Square protests of which you aren't even allowed to speak of in China.
Kent State. Kids in cages. Slavery. Massacres. Supporting many of the the world's worst dictators. Our history is far worse. But you don't speak of that -- but harp on a single incident in China. Sounds like you're just looking for ways to support Trump's vendetta.
If Toyota can build 'precise' Prius's in Alabama, (of all places)....surely Apple can assemble devices in the USA!
It really comes down to good management and, most importantly, placing stake-holder's rights above shareholder's rights.
That is to say, a corporation's responsibility is to it's stakeholders, which includes; workers, customers, the environment/(read: Our dear and fragile planet!), citizens, and, yes, shareholders.
How did we get to assembling iPhones/Mac's in China and flying them in a fleet of 747's belching burnt fuel into the atmosphere?
Hmmmm...
Question (APPLE MANAGEMENT): How do we get iPhones into the hands of Americans?
Answer: (APPLE MANAGEMENT): I know, let's use dead dinosaurs and pollute the planet at the same time....
Me: Whaaaaaat?????
Me: Just saying.
P.S. I applaud Apple for their dedication to exquisite design and environmental/Recycling efforts, but....Huh?
Any thoughts?
I don't think you can compare assembling a car to assembling a computer. Those are 2 totally different animals.
You do realize the States use to manufacture circuit boards, in large numbers, back when it was considerably more difficult and labor intensive than it is now?
Define more difficult. I have a hard time believing the circuit boards of decades past were complex or challenging than the components, systems on a chip, and circuitry of modern miniaturized computers that fit in our pocket.
Both Apple and China will be here, strong and able, long after Trump and his China vendetta have become an embarrassing memories like the Bush and his Iraq war....
It’s not a Trump vendetta - the Obama administration and prior admins all complained about these same topics with the corrupt China — IP theft, currency manipulation, corporate espionage, human rights, etc.
Never seen someone so willing to overlook that China is an authoritarian regime that kills its own people and routinely squashes human rights, just because you don’t like Trump. (I don’t either, but I’m unwilling to whitewash China because of it)
Nice spin! But no... Obama didn't do stupid things -- such as make mountains out of molehills or initiate unwinnable wars. And, the form of government is merely an excuse that has nothing to do with trade. But meanwhile, Trump cozies up to Putin's Russia and other dictatorships -- but his supporters criticize China for being totalitarian!
As for killing its citizens: American police kill far more unarmed black boys than anything in China. And, Chinese children don't have to fear being gunned down in their classrooms while it's government offers thoughts and prayers. Nor do immigrants have to fear having their children taken away and put in cages to die.
No, I don't accept your spin. It is a Trump vendetta against China -- because he realizes they will soon overtake the U.S. as the world's leading economy. So, he Trump's up reasons to attack them.
Funny he goes back 49 years and yet completely skips events like the Tiananmen Square protests of which you aren't even allowed to speak of in China.
Kent State. Kids in cages. Slavery. Massacres. Supporting many of the the world's worst dictators. Our history is far worse. But you don't speak of that -- but harp on a single incident in China. Sounds like you're just looking for ways to support Trump's vendetta.
Vendetta, from all your ramblings something tells me you have no idea what that word even means. Are you able to hold a rational conversation with anyone outside of your little groupthink circle?
If Toyota can build 'precise' Prius's in Alabama, (of all places)....surely Apple can assemble devices in the USA!
It really comes down to good management and, most importantly, placing stake-holder's rights above shareholder's rights.
That is to say, a corporation's responsibility is to it's stakeholders, which includes; workers, customers, the environment/(read: Our dear and fragile planet!), citizens, and, yes, shareholders.
How did we get to assembling iPhones/Mac's in China and flying them in a fleet of 747's belching burnt fuel into the atmosphere?
Hmmmm...
Question (APPLE MANAGEMENT): How do we get iPhones into the hands of overweight Americans?
Answer: (APPLE MANAGEMENT): I know, let's use dead dinosaurs and pollute the planet at the same time....
Me: Whaaaaaat?????
Me: Just saying.
P.S. I applaud Apple for their dedication to exquisite design and environmental/Recycling efforts, but....Huh?
Any thoughts?
You're 100% correct in a perfect world.
The problem is putting these manufacturing plants in place which could take years if done quickly and a decade realistically. Then at that point Apple would most likely automate the process hiring LESS people and again will get sh** on for putting thousands out of work.
In all the documentary footage that I've seen of Apple and other factories, individual workers are doing small repetitive tasks. Circuit board assemblies are more than likely completely automated and assembling an iPhone from the few boards and battery is actually quite easy. Now the individual parts may still need to be manufactured elsewhere, but the automated manufacturing and the assembly could be done in the U.S., in Europe and elsewhere if there's a will. Due to the automation, it might not actually create all that many jobs.
The real issue is that while Chinese wages have increased over the years, it's still cheaper than the U.S., there are no labor unions to contend with and workers work 6 day weeks and 10 hours a day. So I think Apple is being disingenuous.
I also think the "lack of skill" argument is bogus because of the above, because of the examples that Christopher126 gives and because manufacturing output in the U.S. actually peaked two summers ago, but it didn't result in a lot of job growth because so much was automated.
I have always felt that manufacturing should take place near where the products are sold so that the communities where the products are purchased get the benefit of the jobs.
And if Apple really cared about the environment, they wouldn't create products that can't be repaired by third parties and where end users can't replace/upgrade battery, memory and storage.
I also think Apple is holding out to see if Trump isn't re-elected with the expectation that if he isn't and especially if the Senate flips, all of the tariffs will disappear with the next administration. Or that Trump will change his mind again as he often does or that they'll actually be an agreement with China.
That’s the whole rub with making things in China. It makes them affordable compared to making them here. No minimum wage, no age limits on hiring, no enforcement of preventing overworking factory workers, giving them prison like quarters to live when they aren’t working. It’s the same thing that happened here in the early 1900s.
Except that’s all wrong, of course. They do have minimum wages, age limits, overtime restrictions, etc. Haven’t you been paying attention? Apple even has taken on auditing this stuff.
The people who criticize Apples manufacturing plants don't know what they're talking about.
Apple is the only company to audit labor conditions at Foxconn. "What a greedy company!"
Foxconn workers prefer working on Apple products than anything else.
The suicide rate at Foxconn is lower than every U.S. state and all U.S. universities.
Both Apple and China will be here, strong and able, long after Trump and his China vendetta have become an embarrassing memories like the Bush and his Iraq war....
It’s not a Trump vendetta - the Obama administration and prior admins all complained about these same topics with the corrupt China — IP theft, currency manipulation, corporate espionage, human rights, etc.
Never seen someone so willing to overlook that China is an authoritarian regime that kills its own people and routinely squashes human rights, just because you don’t like Trump. (I don’t either, but I’m unwilling to whitewash China because of it)
Nice spin! But no... Obama didn't do stupid things -- such as make mountains out of molehills or initiate unwinnable wars. And, the form of government is merely an excuse that has nothing to do with trade. But meanwhile, Trump cozies up to Putin's Russia and other dictatorships -- but his supporters criticize China for being totalitarian!
As for killing its citizens: American police kill far more unarmed black boys than anything in China. And, Chinese children don't have to fear being gunned down in their classrooms while it's government offers thoughts and prayers. Nor do immigrants have to fear having their children taken away and put in cages to die.
No, I don't accept your spin. It is a Trump vendetta against China -- because he realizes they will soon overtake the U.S. as the world's leading economy. So, he Trump's up reasons to attack them.
American police are the most corrupt in the world. They've beaten little kids and get a paid vacation as a prize.
Let's just agree that all countries have their own problems. Including both U.S. and China.
And if Apple really cared about the environment, they wouldn't create products that can't be repaired by third parties and where end users can't replace/upgrade battery, memory and storage.
You're just projecting. This comment isn't about the environment. Ridiculous.
That’s the whole rub with making things in China. It makes them affordable compared to making them here. No minimum wage, no age limits on hiring, no enforcement of preventing overworking factory workers, giving them prison like quarters to live when they aren’t working...
It's impressive how Trump has created a distortion field that's more pervasive on the American society than what Jobs did back then. If one looked outside the field, one would find that China has employment laws with minimum wage, age, working conditions amongst many others we take for granted. The world is changing rapidly and societies and countries are also evolving rapidly. Of course, keep a large population hostile and in the dark is of benefit for political aims.
This is the same China that talked about a routine PLA rotation into Hong Kong today, but didn't actually release any PLA back to Mainland China. That's a likely predictor of mass arrests in Hong Kong for a huge portion of its population that want to maintain the freedoms that they currently have.
And no, China does not have a legal system anywhere close to what we in the U.S. or any other Western country has, so your note about "China has employment laws with minimum wage, age and working conditions" doesn't actually exist outside of what the CCP allows. and they can be very fickle, and very corrupt.
How many kids were murdered at Kent State? I forget. Was it more or less than the number of unarmed black kids killed by U.S. police every month? Was it more or less than the number of migrant kids who have died this year while in U.S. custody?
We perhaps shouldn't be throwing so many stones.
“George” you post like a foreign agitator. Are you on the Russian or Chinese governments payroll?
If Toyota can build 'precise' Prius's in Alabama, (of all places)....surely Apple can assemble devices in the USA!
It really comes down to good management and, most importantly, placing stake-holder's rights above shareholder's rights.
That is to say, a corporation's responsibility is to it's stakeholders, which includes; workers, customers, the environment/(read: Our dear and fragile planet!), citizens, and, yes, shareholders.
How did we get to assembling iPhones/Mac's in China and flying them in a fleet of 747's belching burnt fuel into the atmosphere?
Hmmmm...
Question (APPLE MANAGEMENT): How do we get iPhones into the hands of Americans?
Answer: (APPLE MANAGEMENT): I know, let's use dead dinosaurs and pollute the planet at the same time....
Me: Whaaaaaat?????
Me: Just saying.
P.S. I applaud Apple for their dedication to exquisite design and environmental/Recycling efforts, but....Huh?
Any thoughts?
I don't think you can compare assembling a car to assembling a computer. Those are 2 totally different animals.
You do realize the States use to manufacture circuit boards, in large numbers, back when it was considerably more difficult and labor intensive than it is now?
Define more difficult. I have a hard time believing the circuit boards of decades past were complex or challenging than the components, systems on a chip, and circuitry of modern miniaturized computers that fit in our pocket.
Both Apple and China will be here, strong and able, long after Trump and his China vendetta have become an embarrassing memories like the Bush and his Iraq war....
It’s not a Trump vendetta - the Obama administration and prior admins all complained about these same topics with the corrupt China — IP theft, currency manipulation, corporate espionage, human rights, etc.
Never seen someone so willing to overlook that China is an authoritarian regime that kills its own people and routinely squashes human rights, just because you don’t like Trump. (I don’t either, but I’m unwilling to whitewash China because of it)
Nice spin! But no... Obama didn't do stupid things -- such as make mountains out of molehills or initiate unwinnable wars. And, the form of government is merely an excuse that has nothing to do with trade. But meanwhile, Trump cozies up to Putin's Russia and other dictatorships -- but his supporters criticize China for being totalitarian!
As for killing its citizens: American police kill far more unarmed black boys than anything in China. And, Chinese children don't have to fear being gunned down in their classrooms while it's government offers thoughts and prayers. Nor do immigrants have to fear having their children taken away and put in cages to die.
No, I don't accept your spin. It is a Trump vendetta against China -- because he realizes they will soon overtake the U.S. as the world's leading economy. So, he Trump's up reasons to attack them.
Funny he goes back 49 years and yet completely skips events like the Tiananmen Square protests of which you aren't even allowed to speak of in China.
Kent State. Kids in cages. Slavery. Massacres. Supporting many of the the world's worst dictators. Our history is far worse. But you don't speak of that -- but harp on a single incident in China. Sounds like you're just looking for ways to support Trump's vendetta.
Vendetta, from all your ramblings something tells me you have no idea what that word even means. Are you able to hold a rational conversation with anyone outside of your little groupthink circle?
It's hard with those who believe the man of 10,000 lies. Or, I hear he's up to 11,000 now -- but the cult still believes and gets all huffy when presented with reality.
That’s the whole rub with making things in China. It makes them affordable compared to making them here. No minimum wage, no age limits on hiring, no enforcement of preventing overworking factory workers, giving them prison like quarters to live when they aren’t working...
It's impressive how Trump has created a distortion field that's more pervasive on the American society than what Jobs did back then. If one looked outside the field, one would find that China has employment laws with minimum wage, age, working conditions amongst many others we take for granted. The world is changing rapidly and societies and countries are also evolving rapidly. Of course, keep a large population hostile and in the dark is of benefit for political aims.
This is the same China that talked about a routine PLA rotation into Hong Kong today, but didn't actually release any PLA back to Mainland China. That's a likely predictor of mass arrests in Hong Kong for a huge portion of its population that want to maintain the freedoms that they currently have.
And no, China does not have a legal system anywhere close to what we in the U.S. or any other Western country has, so your note about "China has employment laws with minimum wage, age and working conditions" doesn't actually exist outside of what the CCP allows. and they can be very fickle, and very corrupt.
How many kids were murdered at Kent State? I forget. Was it more or less than the number of unarmed black kids killed by U.S. police every month? Was it more or less than the number of migrant kids who have died this year while in U.S. custody?
We perhaps shouldn't be throwing so many stones.
“George” you post like a foreign agitator. Are you on the Russian or Chinese governments payroll?
No, somebody who loves America and hates to see Trump pull it down to his level.
If Toyota can build 'precise' Prius's in Alabama, (of all places)....surely Apple can assemble devices in the USA!
It really comes down to good management and, most importantly, placing stake-holder's rights above shareholder's rights.
That is to say, a corporation's responsibility is to it's stakeholders, which includes; workers, customers, the environment/(read: Our dear and fragile planet!), citizens, and, yes, shareholders.
How did we get to assembling iPhones/Mac's in China and flying them in a fleet of 747's belching burnt fuel into the atmosphere?
Hmmmm...
Question (APPLE MANAGEMENT): How do we get iPhones into the hands of overweight Americans?
Answer: (APPLE MANAGEMENT): I know, let's use dead dinosaurs and pollute the planet at the same time....
Me: Whaaaaaat?????
Me: Just saying.
P.S. I applaud Apple for their dedication to exquisite design and environmental/Recycling efforts, but....Huh?
Any thoughts?
You're 100% correct in a perfect world.
The problem is putting these manufacturing plants in place which could take years if done quickly and a decade realistically. Then at that point Apple would most likely automate the process hiring LESS people and again will get sh** on for putting thousands out of work.
In all the documentary footage that I've seen of Apple and other factories, individual workers are doing small repetitive tasks. Circuit board assemblies are more than likely completely automated and assembling an iPhone from the few boards and battery is actually quite easy. Now the individual parts may still need to be manufactured elsewhere, but the automated manufacturing and the assembly could be done in the U.S., in Europe and elsewhere if there's a will. Due to the automation, it might not actually create all that many jobs.
The real issue is that while Chinese wages have increased over the years, it's still cheaper than the U.S., there are no labor unions to contend with and workers work 6 day weeks and 10 hours a day. So I think Apple is being disingenuous.
I also think the "lack of skill" argument is bogus because of the above, because of the examples that Christopher126 gives and because manufacturing output in the U.S. actually peaked two summers ago, but it didn't result in a lot of job growth because so much was automated.
I have always felt that manufacturing should take place near where the products are sold so that the communities where the products are purchased get the benefit of the jobs.
And if Apple really cared about the environment, they wouldn't create products that can't be repaired by third parties and where end users can't replace/upgrade battery, memory and storage.
I also think Apple is holding out to see if Trump isn't re-elected with the expectation that if he isn't and especially if the Senate flips, all of the tariffs will disappear with the next administration. Or that Trump will change his mind again as he often does or that they'll actually be an agreement with China.
That’s the whole rub with making things in China. It makes them affordable compared to making them here. No minimum wage, no age limits on hiring, no enforcement of preventing overworking factory workers, giving them prison like quarters to live when they aren’t working. It’s the same thing that happened here in the early 1900s.
Except that’s all wrong, of course. They do have minimum wages, age limits, overtime restrictions, etc. Haven’t you been paying attention? Apple even has taken on auditing this stuff.
The people who criticize Apples manufacturing plants don't know what they're talking about.
Apple is the only company to audit labor conditions at Foxconn. "What a greedy company!"
Foxconn workers prefer working on Apple products than anything else.
The suicide rate at Foxconn is lower than every U.S. state and all U.S. universities.
Both Apple and China will be here, strong and able, long after Trump and his China vendetta have become an embarrassing memories like the Bush and his Iraq war....
It’s not a Trump vendetta - the Obama administration and prior admins all complained about these same topics with the corrupt China — IP theft, currency manipulation, corporate espionage, human rights, etc.
Never seen someone so willing to overlook that China is an authoritarian regime that kills its own people and routinely squashes human rights, just because you don’t like Trump. (I don’t either, but I’m unwilling to whitewash China because of it)
Nice spin! But no... Obama didn't do stupid things -- such as make mountains out of molehills or initiate unwinnable wars. And, the form of government is merely an excuse that has nothing to do with trade. But meanwhile, Trump cozies up to Putin's Russia and other dictatorships -- but his supporters criticize China for being totalitarian!
As for killing its citizens: American police kill far more unarmed black boys than anything in China. And, Chinese children don't have to fear being gunned down in their classrooms while it's government offers thoughts and prayers. Nor do immigrants have to fear having their children taken away and put in cages to die.
No, I don't accept your spin. It is a Trump vendetta against China -- because he realizes they will soon overtake the U.S. as the world's leading economy. So, he Trump's up reasons to attack them.
American police are the most corrupt in the world. They've beaten little kids and get a paid vacation as a prize.
Let's just agree that all countries have their own problems. Including both U.S. and China.
1) Move manufacturing out of China. 2) Use non-Chinese builders. 3) Shift sourcing all components from other places like Japan and S. Korea.
Apple has demonstrated it can be done; they have a manufacturing plant in India already. All 3 points can be achieved 100% and not be held hostage to the Chinese govt. They can leave their manufacturing plants in China for the Chinese market. But production for the rest of the world has to move out of that toxic place.
1) Move manufacturing out of China. 2) Use non-Chinese builders. 3) Shift sourcing all components from other places like Japan and S. Korea.
Apple has demonstrated it can be done; they have a manufacturing plant in India already. All 3 points can be achieved 100% and not be held hostage to the Chinese govt. They can leave their manufacturing plants in China for the Chinese market. But production for the rest of the world has to move out of that toxic place.
Why? China does it better, faster and cheaper. That's why Apple is there. Apple has no obligation to appease Trump.
That’s the whole rub with making things in China. It makes them affordable compared to making them here. No minimum wage, no age limits on hiring, no enforcement of preventing overworking factory workers, giving them prison like quarters to live when they aren’t working...
It's impressive how Trump has created a distortion field that's more pervasive on the American society than what Jobs did back then. If one looked outside the field, one would find that China has employment laws with minimum wage, age, working conditions amongst many others we take for granted. The world is changing rapidly and societies and countries are also evolving rapidly. Of course, keep a large population hostile and in the dark is of benefit for political aims.
This is the same China that talked about a routine PLA rotation into Hong Kong today, but didn't actually release any PLA back to Mainland China. That's a likely predictor of mass arrests in Hong Kong for a huge portion of its population that want to maintain the freedoms that they currently have.
And no, China does not have a legal system anywhere close to what we in the U.S. or any other Western country has, so your note about "China has employment laws with minimum wage, age and working conditions" doesn't actually exist outside of what the CCP allows. and they can be very fickle, and very corrupt.
How many kids were murdered at Kent State? I forget. Was it more or less than the number of unarmed black kids killed by U.S. police every month? Was it more or less than the number of migrant kids who have died this year while in U.S. custody?
We perhaps shouldn't be throwing so many stones.
“George” you post like a foreign agitator. Are you on the Russian or Chinese governments payroll?
No, somebody who loves America and hates to see Trump pull it down to his level.
I agree. America is being pulled into an idiot state. People are so obsessed with Apple assembling iPhones in US. They are so fooled not able to look at the assembling code of an iPhone. It was estimated to be only a few dollars per phone. The total BOM of iPhone is several hundred dollars. What? We want hurt China because of this several dollars job? Do they expect pay an auto workers wage assembling iPhone in US? Americans are poor in math. And now American future is controlled by people who are very poor in math. I think their real motivation against China is racial and political. This is sad and very sad.
That’s the whole rub with making things in China. It makes them affordable compared to making them here. No minimum wage, no age limits on hiring, no enforcement of preventing overworking factory workers, giving them prison like quarters to live when they aren’t working...
It's impressive how Trump has created a distortion field that's more pervasive on the American society than what Jobs did back then. If one looked outside the field, one would find that China has employment laws with minimum wage, age, working conditions amongst many others we take for granted. The world is changing rapidly and societies and countries are also evolving rapidly. Of course, keep a large population hostile and in the dark is of benefit for political aims.
This is the same China that talked about a routine PLA rotation into Hong Kong today, but didn't actually release any PLA back to Mainland China. That's a likely predictor of mass arrests in Hong Kong for a huge portion of its population that want to maintain the freedoms that they currently have.
And no, China does not have a legal system anywhere close to what we in the U.S. or any other Western country has, so your note about "China has employment laws with minimum wage, age and working conditions" doesn't actually exist outside of what the CCP allows. and they can be very fickle, and very corrupt.
How many kids were murdered at Kent State? I forget. Was it more or less than the number of unarmed black kids killed by U.S. police every month? Was it more or less than the number of migrant kids who have died this year while in U.S. custody?
We perhaps shouldn't be throwing so many stones.
“George” you post like a foreign agitator. Are you on the Russian or Chinese governments payroll?
No, somebody who loves America and hates to see Trump pull it down to his level.
I agree. America is being pulled into an idiot state. People are so obsessed with Apple assembling iPhones in US. They are so fooled not able to look at the assembling code of an iPhone. It was estimated to be only a few dollars per phone. The total BOM of iPhone is several hundred dollars. What? We want hurt China because of this several dollars job? Do they expect pay an auto workers wage assembling iPhone in US? Americans are poor in math. And now American future is controlled by people who are very poor in math. I think their real motivation against China is racial and political. This is sad and very sad.
I would say political at this point: Trump knows that China will, in the coming years, overtake the U.S. as the world's economy. And, Trump is too insecure to be #2. So, he is doing what he does: Attack. And, part of that attack is, as always, to denigrate the opponent -- in this case with his "China cheats" mantra -- and it is that which will soon morph into racial fears and hatred.
Trump fears being overtaken by the Chinese on major technology fronts such as communications and AI. He has admitted as much in several tweets (for example his, 'not on my watch' comments).
He using Huawei as a pawn in trade negotiations while simultaneously trying to kill the company and stopping it from pulling even further ahead.
At the same time he is concerned about an economic slowdown being directly connected to his actions. He is already pointing the finger at a few local scapegoats.
Time flies and he has less of it with each passing day. The trade war with China was supposed to be quick and easy to win (his own words) but has proved to be anything but.
He is becoming more unpredictable by the minute (to the point of people in his own administration supposedly not knowing what he thinks from one day to the next and therefore unable to take decisions) and leaving a trail of damaging tweets in his wake (for example, 'I hereby order...') that only serve to make things worse.
130 U.S companies have requested licences to do business with Huawei. Not one has been granted. That's 11 billion dollars of lost trade from ONE single company having a massive impact on 130 U.S companies. As a result Huawei has already responded with its very own 'bye, bye American Pie' and declared it will be free of U.S dependence in two years max. If those U.S businesses can scrape back some of that hardware business (licences permitting) it will be just that, scrapings.
Boeing knows it could also see billions in business lost.
Google is quaking in its boots right now. It has tried to sit in the shadows on the monopolistic front but Trump has dragged it out to bathe in the spotlight as the world sees the potential immediate impact of not having a Google licence can have in the smartphone industry. Not only that but Huawei is prepping a universal open source OS that could easily end up on a third of the world's smartphones and other smart devices.
Just like the Chinese government, I think Tim Cook would also prefer to sit things out and hope for a new watch leader, but the damage has already been done and largely (and ironically) on Trump's watch.
He seems to have forgotten that the U.S trade deficit is not so much with China as with the entire world which is duly taking note of his 'clobbering time' negotiating 'tactics' and is very unimpressed.
The recent G7 summit made things crystal clear. He can't have his cake and eat it and that will slowly become clear to him. However, he will never admit that, so he will just blame someone else.
If he doesn't get re-elected someone else will have to bend over backwards to repair the damage and even then, things will never be the same. Wheels have been put in motion that cannot be stopped.
The global supply chain will remain global but much less of it will be dependent on U.S companies. Apple could shift things around a little but not in response to Trump. I've long said that having all its chip manufacturing in one company is a mistake, but not for political reasons
Given the changes in communications and AI that we are about to see, it could be worse timing to have all this happening.
Comments
It’s not a Trump vendetta - the Obama administration and prior admins all complained about these same topics with the corrupt China — IP theft, currency manipulation, corporate espionage, human rights, etc.
Never seen someone so willing to overlook that China is an authoritarian regime that kills its own people and routinely squashes human rights, just because you don’t like Trump. (I don’t either, but I’m unwilling to whitewash China because of it)
Define more difficult. I have a hard time believing the circuit boards of decades past were complex or challenging than the components, systems on a chip, and circuitry of modern miniaturized computers that fit in our pocket.
What aboutism is a logical fallacy. You can’t cite that there are isolated police killings in the US and therefore invalidate criticism of China’s national policies of murdering and imprisoning political dissidents and human rights protestors. Errnnt. Nope, what aboutism is a variant of ad hominem fallacy.
China is among the worst on human rights. That you work so hard to obscure this is suspect.
But no... Obama didn't do stupid things -- such as make mountains out of molehills or initiate unwinnable wars.
And, the form of government is merely an excuse that has nothing to do with trade. But meanwhile, Trump cozies up to Putin's Russia and other dictatorships -- but his supporters criticize China for being totalitarian!
As for killing its citizens: American police kill far more unarmed black boys than anything in China. And, Chinese children don't have to fear being gunned down in their classrooms while it's government offers thoughts and prayers. Nor do immigrants have to fear having their children taken away and put in cages to die.
No, I don't accept your spin. It is a Trump vendetta against China -- because he realizes they will soon overtake the U.S. as the world's leading economy. So, he Trump's up reasons to attack them.
Some similar type of work is still required. You still load placement machines with reels, however you no longer have the added sequence reel. The packaging of parts is more robust. Components now sit in individual pockets and for the most part do not have exposed leads where you have to worry about them getting physically damaged. Most complex SOC's are now BGA's and thankfully improvements to machine AI allows them to be place more accurately and quicker than ever. You can pretty much automated the entire process from screen printing the solder on the boards to loading finished product in boxes. The only part of the process that still requires manual labor is in-circuit testing and burn-in.
All in all, running a high volume low mix factory is a dream now compared to the time when we first started shipping these assemblies overseas in the first place..
Funny you go back 49 years and yet completely skips events like the Tiananmen Square protests of which you aren't even allowed to speak of in China.
And yes Obama did make mountains out of molehills, "Cambridge police acted stupidly" ring a bell? How about the Arab Spring?
You're 100% correct in a perfect world.
The problem is putting these manufacturing plants in place which could take years if done quickly and a decade realistically. Then at that point Apple would most likely automate the process hiring LESS people and again will get sh** on for putting thousands out of work.
The people who criticize Apples manufacturing plants don't know what they're talking about.
Apple is the only company to audit labor conditions at Foxconn. "What a greedy company!"
Foxconn workers prefer working on Apple products than anything else.
The suicide rate at Foxconn is lower than every U.S. state and all U.S. universities.
American police are the most corrupt in the world. They've beaten little kids and get a paid vacation as a prize.
Let's just agree that all countries have their own problems. Including both U.S. and China.
1) Move manufacturing out of China.
2) Use non-Chinese builders.
3) Shift sourcing all components from other places like Japan and S. Korea.
Apple has demonstrated it can be done; they have a manufacturing plant in India already. All 3 points can be achieved 100% and not be held hostage to the Chinese govt.
They can leave their manufacturing plants in China for the Chinese market. But production for the rest of the world has to move out of that toxic place.
He using Huawei as a pawn in trade negotiations while simultaneously trying to kill the company and stopping it from pulling even further ahead.
At the same time he is concerned about an economic slowdown being directly connected to his actions. He is already pointing the finger at a few local scapegoats.
Time flies and he has less of it with each passing day. The trade war with China was supposed to be quick and easy to win (his own words) but has proved to be anything but.
He is becoming more unpredictable by the minute (to the point of people in his own administration supposedly not knowing what he thinks from one day to the next and therefore unable to take decisions) and leaving a trail of damaging tweets in his wake (for example, 'I hereby order...') that only serve to make things worse.
130 U.S companies have requested licences to do business with Huawei. Not one has been granted. That's 11 billion dollars of lost trade from ONE single company having a massive impact on 130 U.S companies. As a result Huawei has already responded with its very own 'bye, bye American Pie' and declared it will be free of U.S dependence in two years max. If those U.S businesses can scrape back some of that hardware business (licences permitting) it will be just that, scrapings.
Boeing knows it could also see billions in business lost.
Google is quaking in its boots right now. It has tried to sit in the shadows on the
monopolistic front but Trump has dragged it out to bathe in the spotlight as the world sees the potential immediate impact of not having a Google licence can have in the smartphone industry. Not only that but Huawei is prepping a universal open source OS that could easily end up on a third of the world's smartphones and other smart devices.
Just like the Chinese government, I think Tim Cook would also prefer to sit things out and hope for a new watch leader, but the damage has already been done and largely (and ironically) on Trump's watch.
He seems to have forgotten that the U.S trade deficit is not so much with China as with the entire world which is duly taking note of his 'clobbering time' negotiating 'tactics' and is very unimpressed.
The recent G7 summit made things crystal clear. He can't have his cake and eat it and that will slowly become clear to him. However, he will never admit that, so he will just blame someone else.
If he doesn't get re-elected someone else will have to bend over backwards to repair the damage and even then, things will never be the same. Wheels have been put in motion that cannot be stopped.
The global supply chain will remain global but much less of it will be dependent on U.S companies. Apple could shift things around a little but not in response to Trump. I've long said that having all its chip manufacturing in one company is a mistake, but not for political reasons
Given the changes in communications and AI that we are about to see, it could be worse timing to have all this happening.