Kuo: iPhone 11 & Pro having strong launch, Apple will sell 75M iPhones in 2019

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 39
    According to a report in CNBC:
    "Chinese consumers have to pay a premium above the U.S. price that’s between 10.5% and 12.5% for the iPhone 11, according to analysis by CNBC. The cheapest model starts at 5,499 yuan ($777). That mark-up is less than last year’s iPhone XR — the equivalent of the new iPhone 11 — which commanded a 28% premium.

    Apple was eventually forced to slash its iPhone prices in China for that series.

    But the cheaper iPhone 11 pricing has got Chinese consumers interested."

    In the same report they say that the same decrease in the China premium has not occurred in the -pro models of iPhone.

    We can speculate if this is true -- or even why Apple would charge a country more for a product that that country makes for them -- but more interesting is why they would decrease the premium and what impact it will have on iPhone sales.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/16/apple-iphone-11-most-popular-model-pre-ordered-in-china.html



  • Reply 22 of 39
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 7,470member

    But, wait ... I thought this year's iPhone was just iterative, not "innovative" enough, and Apple was doomed to failure? What Universe is this????

    And I thought that Apple's design choice for the cameras were too fugly??? Seriously, I'm confused! Who is buying these amazing, fast, powerful, capable phones???
    Be very careful. Critics do not like their opinions being criticized. You could be labeled a fanboy. Just a friendly warning from an already labeled fanboy.
    edited September 16 tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 39
    FolioFolio Posts: 653member
    tmay said:
    While the iPhone 11's might be missing 5G, and I'm fine with that for now, they do have an innovation in UWB;

    https://sixcolors.com/post/2019/09/the-u1-chip-in-the-iphone-11-is-the-beginning-of-an-ultra-wideband-revolution/

    As for the "look" of the Camera matrix on the Pro Max, I see function, and that's what I'm buying. I expect that we will grow attached to the "look".
    Exactly. And how often does a user gaze at the back of their phone? I dunno. Maybe some confused Android boys do. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 39
    FolioFolio Posts: 653member
    What Kuo report tacitly acknowledges is Apple has many levers to pull. "Tariffs? Exchange rates? Trade in values? Free Financing? Free TV? .... No problem. Let's talk. Come into my ecosystem. It's getting greener everyday."
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 39
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,305member
    Folio said:
    tmay said:
    While the iPhone 11's might be missing 5G, and I'm fine with that for now, they do have an innovation in UWB;

    https://sixcolors.com/post/2019/09/the-u1-chip-in-the-iphone-11-is-the-beginning-of-an-ultra-wideband-revolution/

    As for the "look" of the Camera matrix on the Pro Max, I see function, and that's what I'm buying. I expect that we will grow attached to the "look".
    Exactly. And how often does a user gaze at the back of their phone? I dunno. Maybe some confused Android boys do. 
    After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant.

    Why do you think Apple offers a swathe of colours and now a matte textured finish?

    Looks count and it doesn't matter which platform you are on.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 26 of 39
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,984member
    avon b7 said:
    Folio said:
    tmay said:
    While the iPhone 11's might be missing 5G, and I'm fine with that for now, they do have an innovation in UWB;

    https://sixcolors.com/post/2019/09/the-u1-chip-in-the-iphone-11-is-the-beginning-of-an-ultra-wideband-revolution/

    As for the "look" of the Camera matrix on the Pro Max, I see function, and that's what I'm buying. I expect that we will grow attached to the "look".
    Exactly. And how often does a user gaze at the back of their phone? I dunno. Maybe some confused Android boys do. 
    After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant.

    Why do you think Apple offers a swathe of colours and now a matte textured finish?

    Looks count and it doesn't matter which platform you are on.
    You were one of those that was constantly pushing "ugly" for the iPhone 11 Pro early renders, due to the square camera "bump" that Apple wisely chose not to hide.

    Looks can only take you so far, but iPhone 11 Pro's imaging proves that function rules.
    edited September 16 lkruppStrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 39
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,305member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Folio said:
    tmay said:
    While the iPhone 11's might be missing 5G, and I'm fine with that for now, they do have an innovation in UWB;

    https://sixcolors.com/post/2019/09/the-u1-chip-in-the-iphone-11-is-the-beginning-of-an-ultra-wideband-revolution/

    As for the "look" of the Camera matrix on the Pro Max, I see function, and that's what I'm buying. I expect that we will grow attached to the "look".
    Exactly. And how often does a user gaze at the back of their phone? I dunno. Maybe some confused Android boys do. 
    After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant.

    Why do you think Apple offers a swathe of colours and now a matte textured finish?

    Looks count and it doesn't matter which platform you are on.
    You were one of those that was constantly pushing "ugly" for the iPhone 11 Pro early renders, due to the square camera "bump" that Apple wisely chose not to hide.

    Looks can only take you so far, but iPhone 11 Pro's imaging proves that function rules.
    You need revise what you think I said.



    Here is a refresher for you:

    "That's an ugly render. The block would be centred at the very least (if they go for a block format). A lineal format only gives two main options, of which the vertical alignment looks better IMO. I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/208902/early-render-suggests-2019s-iphone-xi-could-have-triple-lens-rear-camera/p2


    "At first, and depending on the render, I wasn't sure if I liked the camera placement setup. Over time I've reached the conclusion that something seems wrong. It seems lopsided. There was talk of making them less visible in the final product. I hope that's the case."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210613/iphone-xi-and-iphone-xi-max-case-manufacturing-dummies-pop-up-on-chinese-social-media/p1

    "The very first rumour and render of this design left me unconvinced but definitely not hating it. Subsequent renders have seen me swing away from the look, especially the renders in this article which look awful but now I see the renders you have posted and once again I'm back at square one.

    If that is the true idea and position, we are going to have to wait for leaks nearer the release date to gauge how it looks"

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210690/renders-of-2019-iphone-depict-square-camera-bump-as-part-of-rear-glass/p2

    Those comments are very fair while based on rumours and far from 'constantly pushing ugly'. If this had been an Android phone I can guarantee you that some here laughing their socks off. 

    Yes, IMO they are ugly (now the phones have been released). Very ugly if you prefer but it isn't only me who thinks that.

    As for only being able to take looks so far that is stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further.

    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 28 of 39
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,984member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Folio said:
    tmay said:
    While the iPhone 11's might be missing 5G, and I'm fine with that for now, they do have an innovation in UWB;

    https://sixcolors.com/post/2019/09/the-u1-chip-in-the-iphone-11-is-the-beginning-of-an-ultra-wideband-revolution/

    As for the "look" of the Camera matrix on the Pro Max, I see function, and that's what I'm buying. I expect that we will grow attached to the "look".
    Exactly. And how often does a user gaze at the back of their phone? I dunno. Maybe some confused Android boys do. 
    After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant.

    Why do you think Apple offers a swathe of colours and now a matte textured finish?

    Looks count and it doesn't matter which platform you are on.
    You were one of those that was constantly pushing "ugly" for the iPhone 11 Pro early renders, due to the square camera "bump" that Apple wisely chose not to hide.

    Looks can only take you so far, but iPhone 11 Pro's imaging proves that function rules.
    You need revise what you think I said.



    Here is a refresher for you:

    "That's an ugly render. The block would be centred at the very least (if they go for a block format). A lineal format only gives two main options, of which the vertical alignment looks better IMO. I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/208902/early-render-suggests-2019s-iphone-xi-could-have-triple-lens-rear-camera/p2


    "At first, and depending on the render, I wasn't sure if I liked the camera placement setup. Over time I've reached the conclusion that something seems wrong. It seems lopsided. There was talk of making them less visible in the final product. I hope that's the case."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210613/iphone-xi-and-iphone-xi-max-case-manufacturing-dummies-pop-up-on-chinese-social-media/p1

    "The very first rumour and render of this design left me unconvinced but definitely not hating it. Subsequent renders have seen me swing away from the look, especially the renders in this article which look awful but now I see the renders you have posted and once again I'm back at square one.

    If that is the true idea and position, we are going to have to wait for leaks nearer the release date to gauge how it looks"

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210690/renders-of-2019-iphone-depict-square-camera-bump-as-part-of-rear-glass/p2

    Those comments are very fair while based on rumours and far from 'constantly pushing ugly'. If this had been an Android phone I can guarantee you that some here laughing their socks off. 

    Yes, IMO they are ugly (now the phones have been released). Very ugly if you prefer but it isn't only me who thinks that.

    As for only being able to take looks so far that is stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further.

    "I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    Apple didn't use the vertical triple camera arrangement because it was optically inferior for computational imaging. They didn't use the layouts that all or most of the other triple camera phones have which is laid out in an "L" configuration, because again, they are optically inferior for computational imaging. This will be proven by a hoard of reviewers starting this weekend.

    Apple certainly did maintain the position of its cameras that it has had since the iPhone 1. All those things are about purpose, not "stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further".

    Why would Apple need to take it further, when even you state that "After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant".

    You wanted to push a meme, over and over again, that the bump was ugly and would put buyers off, and you failed, big time.


    StrangeDaysbigpicswatto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 39
    BebeBebe Posts: 123member
    I have the Xs Max from last year.  I may replace it with the 11 Pro Max for the camera.  :)
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 39
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,305member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Folio said:
    tmay said:
    While the iPhone 11's might be missing 5G, and I'm fine with that for now, they do have an innovation in UWB;

    https://sixcolors.com/post/2019/09/the-u1-chip-in-the-iphone-11-is-the-beginning-of-an-ultra-wideband-revolution/

    As for the "look" of the Camera matrix on the Pro Max, I see function, and that's what I'm buying. I expect that we will grow attached to the "look".
    Exactly. And how often does a user gaze at the back of their phone? I dunno. Maybe some confused Android boys do. 
    After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant.

    Why do you think Apple offers a swathe of colours and now a matte textured finish?

    Looks count and it doesn't matter which platform you are on.
    You were one of those that was constantly pushing "ugly" for the iPhone 11 Pro early renders, due to the square camera "bump" that Apple wisely chose not to hide.

    Looks can only take you so far, but iPhone 11 Pro's imaging proves that function rules.
    You need revise what you think I said.



    Here is a refresher for you:

    "That's an ugly render. The block would be centred at the very least (if they go for a block format). A lineal format only gives two main options, of which the vertical alignment looks better IMO. I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/208902/early-render-suggests-2019s-iphone-xi-could-have-triple-lens-rear-camera/p2


    "At first, and depending on the render, I wasn't sure if I liked the camera placement setup. Over time I've reached the conclusion that something seems wrong. It seems lopsided. There was talk of making them less visible in the final product. I hope that's the case."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210613/iphone-xi-and-iphone-xi-max-case-manufacturing-dummies-pop-up-on-chinese-social-media/p1

    "The very first rumour and render of this design left me unconvinced but definitely not hating it. Subsequent renders have seen me swing away from the look, especially the renders in this article which look awful but now I see the renders you have posted and once again I'm back at square one.

    If that is the true idea and position, we are going to have to wait for leaks nearer the release date to gauge how it looks"

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210690/renders-of-2019-iphone-depict-square-camera-bump-as-part-of-rear-glass/p2

    Those comments are very fair while based on rumours and far from 'constantly pushing ugly'. If this had been an Android phone I can guarantee you that some here laughing their socks off. 

    Yes, IMO they are ugly (now the phones have been released). Very ugly if you prefer but it isn't only me who thinks that.

    As for only being able to take looks so far that is stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further.

    "I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    Apple didn't use the vertical triple camera arrangement because it was optically inferior for computational imaging. They didn't use the layouts that all or most of the other triple camera phones have which is laid out in an "L" configuration, because again, they are optically inferior for computational imaging. This will be proven by a hoard of reviewers starting this weekend.

    Apple certainly did maintain the position of its cameras that it has had since the iPhone 1. All those things are about purpose, not "stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further".

    Why would Apple need to take it further, when even you state that "After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant".

    You wanted to push a meme, over and over again, that the bump was ugly and would put buyers off, and you failed, big time.


    We were talking about looks, remember?

    As for why Apple did this, have they actually said that?

    Not that it even matters. The problem isn't the array but where it is. Do you think Huawei's imaging division hadn't considered their design options for computational photograghy?

    The bump is ugly and although you don't want accept it, design plays an important part in phone sales, hence the colour options and textured finish, but I said that earlier.

    There is no meme. I quoted myself. You are literally making things up.

    I have no idea how you already know what reviewers will say about them. Do you also know what reviewers will say about the Pixel 4 and Mate 30 Pro?
  • Reply 31 of 39
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Folio said:
    tmay said:
    While the iPhone 11's might be missing 5G, and I'm fine with that for now, they do have an innovation in UWB;

    https://sixcolors.com/post/2019/09/the-u1-chip-in-the-iphone-11-is-the-beginning-of-an-ultra-wideband-revolution/

    As for the "look" of the Camera matrix on the Pro Max, I see function, and that's what I'm buying. I expect that we will grow attached to the "look".
    Exactly. And how often does a user gaze at the back of their phone? I dunno. Maybe some confused Android boys do. 
    After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant.

    Why do you think Apple offers a swathe of colours and now a matte textured finish?

    Looks count and it doesn't matter which platform you are on.
    You were one of those that was constantly pushing "ugly" for the iPhone 11 Pro early renders, due to the square camera "bump" that Apple wisely chose not to hide.

    Looks can only take you so far, but iPhone 11 Pro's imaging proves that function rules.
    You need revise what you think I said.



    Here is a refresher for you:

    "That's an ugly render. The block would be centred at the very least (if they go for a block format). A lineal format only gives two main options, of which the vertical alignment looks better IMO. I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/208902/early-render-suggests-2019s-iphone-xi-could-have-triple-lens-rear-camera/p2


    "At first, and depending on the render, I wasn't sure if I liked the camera placement setup. Over time I've reached the conclusion that something seems wrong. It seems lopsided. There was talk of making them less visible in the final product. I hope that's the case."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210613/iphone-xi-and-iphone-xi-max-case-manufacturing-dummies-pop-up-on-chinese-social-media/p1

    "The very first rumour and render of this design left me unconvinced but definitely not hating it. Subsequent renders have seen me swing away from the look, especially the renders in this article which look awful but now I see the renders you have posted and once again I'm back at square one.

    If that is the true idea and position, we are going to have to wait for leaks nearer the release date to gauge how it looks"

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210690/renders-of-2019-iphone-depict-square-camera-bump-as-part-of-rear-glass/p2

    Those comments are very fair while based on rumours and far from 'constantly pushing ugly'. If this had been an Android phone I can guarantee you that some here laughing their socks off. 

    Yes, IMO they are ugly (now the phones have been released). Very ugly if you prefer but it isn't only me who thinks that.

    As for only being able to take looks so far that is stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further.

    "I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    Apple didn't use the vertical triple camera arrangement because it was optically inferior for computational imaging. They didn't use the layouts that all or most of the other triple camera phones have which is laid out in an "L" configuration, because again, they are optically inferior for computational imaging. This will be proven by a hoard of reviewers starting this weekend.

    Apple certainly did maintain the position of its cameras that it has had since the iPhone 1. All those things are about purpose, not "stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further".

    Why would Apple need to take it further, when even you state that "After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant".

    You wanted to push a meme, over and over again, that the bump was ugly and would put buyers off, and you failed, big time.


    The bump is ugly and although you don't want accept it, design plays an important part in phone sales, hence the colour options and textured finish, but I said that earlier.
    It's not, that's just a nonsense point you're sticking to because it's what you have. Haters & other-brand-cheerleaders one day complain that Apple is form over function, then when that's disproven they retort with "But it's ugly!" Pathetic. It's not ugly, it looks cool, the renders got it wrong as usual, and this device will kick ass. As usual.

    Looking forward to your cheap Chinese knockoffs ripping off the new color.
    edited September 16 tmaybigpicswatto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 39
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,984member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Folio said:
    tmay said:
    While the iPhone 11's might be missing 5G, and I'm fine with that for now, they do have an innovation in UWB;

    https://sixcolors.com/post/2019/09/the-u1-chip-in-the-iphone-11-is-the-beginning-of-an-ultra-wideband-revolution/

    As for the "look" of the Camera matrix on the Pro Max, I see function, and that's what I'm buying. I expect that we will grow attached to the "look".
    Exactly. And how often does a user gaze at the back of their phone? I dunno. Maybe some confused Android boys do. 
    After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant.

    Why do you think Apple offers a swathe of colours and now a matte textured finish?

    Looks count and it doesn't matter which platform you are on.
    You were one of those that was constantly pushing "ugly" for the iPhone 11 Pro early renders, due to the square camera "bump" that Apple wisely chose not to hide.

    Looks can only take you so far, but iPhone 11 Pro's imaging proves that function rules.
    You need revise what you think I said.



    Here is a refresher for you:

    "That's an ugly render. The block would be centred at the very least (if they go for a block format). A lineal format only gives two main options, of which the vertical alignment looks better IMO. I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/208902/early-render-suggests-2019s-iphone-xi-could-have-triple-lens-rear-camera/p2


    "At first, and depending on the render, I wasn't sure if I liked the camera placement setup. Over time I've reached the conclusion that something seems wrong. It seems lopsided. There was talk of making them less visible in the final product. I hope that's the case."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210613/iphone-xi-and-iphone-xi-max-case-manufacturing-dummies-pop-up-on-chinese-social-media/p1

    "The very first rumour and render of this design left me unconvinced but definitely not hating it. Subsequent renders have seen me swing away from the look, especially the renders in this article which look awful but now I see the renders you have posted and once again I'm back at square one.

    If that is the true idea and position, we are going to have to wait for leaks nearer the release date to gauge how it looks"

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210690/renders-of-2019-iphone-depict-square-camera-bump-as-part-of-rear-glass/p2

    Those comments are very fair while based on rumours and far from 'constantly pushing ugly'. If this had been an Android phone I can guarantee you that some here laughing their socks off. 

    Yes, IMO they are ugly (now the phones have been released). Very ugly if you prefer but it isn't only me who thinks that.

    As for only being able to take looks so far that is stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further.

    "I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    Apple didn't use the vertical triple camera arrangement because it was optically inferior for computational imaging. They didn't use the layouts that all or most of the other triple camera phones have which is laid out in an "L" configuration, because again, they are optically inferior for computational imaging. This will be proven by a hoard of reviewers starting this weekend.

    Apple certainly did maintain the position of its cameras that it has had since the iPhone 1. All those things are about purpose, not "stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further".

    Why would Apple need to take it further, when even you state that "After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant".

    You wanted to push a meme, over and over again, that the bump was ugly and would put buyers off, and you failed, big time.


    We were talking about looks, remember?

    As for why Apple did this, have they actually said that?

    Not that it even matters. The problem isn't the array but where it is. Do you think Huawei's imaging division hadn't considered their design options for computational photograghy?

    The bump is ugly and although you don't want accept it, design plays an important part in phone sales, hence the colour options and textured finish, but I said that earlier.

    There is no meme. I quoted myself. You are literally making things up.

    I have no idea how you already know what reviewers will say about them. Do you also know what reviewers will say about the Pixel 4 and Mate 30 Pro?
    You talk of design as if it is only cosmetic. I talk of design as function, which is why it is called Industrial Design.

    I acknowledge that aesthetics plays an important role in a finished product, but can't imagine trading off functionality for at best a small gain in aesthetics, which is what most Android OS device makers do.

    As for your comment, "the problem isn't the array, but where it is". Actually, Apple seriously considered placement, years ago, and hasn't changed it since the iPhone 1, unlike the huge number of variations of both array and placement that Huawei has had for its various models of dual and triple camera array's, best summed up by a "throwing it against the wall and seeing what sticks" design philosophy.

    Good news for Huawei! Now they and the other Android OS device makers can tear down the iPhone 11 and actually find out what an optimized optical system looks like.

    As for what the reviewers will say, 

    "In terms of the combination of software and hardware and ecology, Apple is still invincible."



    Pretty telling coming from a Samsung guy...

    "
    The most attractive technology of the iPhone 11 Pro is: Deep fusion, the neural engine directly outputs images, and produces detailed photos, which is the real intelligence of the smartphone."



    and:

    "Samsung is also developing the “Deep Fusion”function similar to the iPhone 11 Pro, and really plays the role of the NPU in taking pictures and videos. We can look forward to the Galaxy S11."



    Oh, and A13 crushes the Kirin 990, yet again, and it's the A13 performance that makes "Deep Fusion" possible.

    edited September 16 bigpicswatto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 39
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,305member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Folio said:
    tmay said:
    While the iPhone 11's might be missing 5G, and I'm fine with that for now, they do have an innovation in UWB;

    https://sixcolors.com/post/2019/09/the-u1-chip-in-the-iphone-11-is-the-beginning-of-an-ultra-wideband-revolution/

    As for the "look" of the Camera matrix on the Pro Max, I see function, and that's what I'm buying. I expect that we will grow attached to the "look".
    Exactly. And how often does a user gaze at the back of their phone? I dunno. Maybe some confused Android boys do. 
    After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant.

    Why do you think Apple offers a swathe of colours and now a matte textured finish?

    Looks count and it doesn't matter which platform you are on.
    You were one of those that was constantly pushing "ugly" for the iPhone 11 Pro early renders, due to the square camera "bump" that Apple wisely chose not to hide.

    Looks can only take you so far, but iPhone 11 Pro's imaging proves that function rules.
    You need revise what you think I said.



    Here is a refresher for you:

    "That's an ugly render. The block would be centred at the very least (if they go for a block format). A lineal format only gives two main options, of which the vertical alignment looks better IMO. I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/208902/early-render-suggests-2019s-iphone-xi-could-have-triple-lens-rear-camera/p2


    "At first, and depending on the render, I wasn't sure if I liked the camera placement setup. Over time I've reached the conclusion that something seems wrong. It seems lopsided. There was talk of making them less visible in the final product. I hope that's the case."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210613/iphone-xi-and-iphone-xi-max-case-manufacturing-dummies-pop-up-on-chinese-social-media/p1

    "The very first rumour and render of this design left me unconvinced but definitely not hating it. Subsequent renders have seen me swing away from the look, especially the renders in this article which look awful but now I see the renders you have posted and once again I'm back at square one.

    If that is the true idea and position, we are going to have to wait for leaks nearer the release date to gauge how it looks"

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210690/renders-of-2019-iphone-depict-square-camera-bump-as-part-of-rear-glass/p2

    Those comments are very fair while based on rumours and far from 'constantly pushing ugly'. If this had been an Android phone I can guarantee you that some here laughing their socks off. 

    Yes, IMO they are ugly (now the phones have been released). Very ugly if you prefer but it isn't only me who thinks that.

    As for only being able to take looks so far that is stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further.

    "I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    Apple didn't use the vertical triple camera arrangement because it was optically inferior for computational imaging. They didn't use the layouts that all or most of the other triple camera phones have which is laid out in an "L" configuration, because again, they are optically inferior for computational imaging. This will be proven by a hoard of reviewers starting this weekend.

    Apple certainly did maintain the position of its cameras that it has had since the iPhone 1. All those things are about purpose, not "stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further".

    Why would Apple need to take it further, when even you state that "After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant".

    You wanted to push a meme, over and over again, that the bump was ugly and would put buyers off, and you failed, big time.


    We were talking about looks, remember?

    As for why Apple did this, have they actually said that?

    Not that it even matters. The problem isn't the array but where it is. Do you think Huawei's imaging division hadn't considered their design options for computational photograghy?

    The bump is ugly and although you don't want accept it, design plays an important part in phone sales, hence the colour options and textured finish, but I said that earlier.

    There is no meme. I quoted myself. You are literally making things up.

    I have no idea how you already know what reviewers will say about them. Do you also know what reviewers will say about the Pixel 4 and Mate 30 Pro?
    You talk of design as if it is only cosmetic. I talk of design as function, which is why it is called Industrial Design.

    I acknowledge that aesthetics plays an important role in a finished product, but can't imagine trading off functionality for at best a small gain in aesthetics, which is what most Android OS device makers do.

    As for your comment, "the problem isn't the array, but where it is". Actually, Apple seriously considered placement, years ago, and hasn't changed it since the iPhone 1, unlike the huge number of variations of both array and placement that Huawei has had for its various models of dual and triple camera array's, best summed up by a "throwing it against the wall and seeing what sticks" design philosophy.

    Good news for Huawei! Now they and the other Android OS device makers can tear down the iPhone 11 and actually find out what an optimized optical system looks like.

    As for what the reviewers will say, 

    "In terms of the combination of software and hardware and ecology, Apple is still invincible."



    Pretty telling coming from a Samsung guy...

    "The most attractive technology of the iPhone 11 Pro is: Deep fusion, the neural engine directly outputs images, and produces detailed photos, which is the real intelligence of the smartphone."



    and:

    "Samsung is also developing the “Deep Fusion”function similar to the iPhone 11 Pro, and really plays the role of the NPU in taking pictures and videos. We can look forward to the Galaxy S11."



    Oh, and A13 crushes, Kirin 990, yet again, and it's the A13 performance that makes "Deep Fusion" possible.

    Ice Universe isn't reviewing anything. He's rehashing the keynote!

    Deep Fusion (multiple exposures + plus AI) is what Huawei has been doing since it introduced Night Mode, two years ago!

    Most important areas are the sensor itself and the ISPs. The computational part gets thrown in there too. The Kirin 990 is really a Kirin 985 (990 is really a last-minute marketing upgrade). As for 'crushing' I will remind you that the A13 crushes the A12 too. Really isn't relevant as A12 users aren't really seeing the speed advantages over Android flagships. In many areas those Android phones are actually faster than iPhones at everyday actions like opening apps. Speed stopped being an issue years ago. What has moved smartphones forward has been other areas. It is only with the 2019 iPhones that those other areas took a step up.

    What was 'crushing' other chipsets on CPU performance going to give users if they never used it and competitors don't even have performance issues anyway? Don't you think they would have preferred what the iPhone 11 will bring? You know, things competitors have had for years like class leading low light performance, better zoom, better WiFi, better modem, better GPS tracking...

    I think they'd gladly exchange 'speed' they hardly ever use for those features.

    Oh, the Kirin 990 will crush the A13 on 5G, right? And on the subject of SoC ISP, the Kirin 990 has Huawei's 5th generation dual ISPs drawing from new image sensors and as you quoted Ice Universe, here he is again:



    When people start saying 'this crushes that' it only shows the writer misses the point.

    The A13 isn't the key ingredient for Deep Fusion, the neural engine is.

    What do you know about the NPU on the Kirin 990 and what it can do? Nothing? Next to nothing?

    And 'ugly' obviously is about aesthetics - not function!
    edited September 16
  • Reply 34 of 39
    apple ][ said:
    I'm not in the market for a new iPhone this year, but I like the look of those new cameras. Very industrial looking. Instead of trying to hide the lenses and make them low key, Apple is like, here they are, they kick ass, and we're not afraid to show them off.

    I know I'm supposed to hate the new cameras, according to various comments that I read online, but screw the haters and screw the low IQ sheep who are incapable of having their own thoughts. If they weren't hating on the cameras, then they'd be hating on something else. Their shtick has become very predictable, boring and played out by now.

    Phones have basically replaced the need for the average person to own a dedicated camera, that's been the case for many years now, and it only makes sense that cameras will continue to improve on phones, including having multiple lenses and more features.

    I have no idea what the sales figures are, I guess nobody besides Apple knows at this point, but I can see the new iPhones doing rather well too.
    I really like what you wrote here. That's right, it's industrial design, whether you love it or hate it, Apple make a stance: we are not hiding it. Just like the notch, you won't notice it after a few days. It is so obvious, including the lenses, the phone looks amazingly well built and fine in details.

    Of course Apple 'could' go Samsung or Huawei look - but they decidedly chose not to. You would think some people here believe Apple was not capable of designing a better look for their lenses array. Huh, as if. Apple don't do something for 'just because...' without any reasons.
    edited September 16 watto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 39
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,984member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Folio said:
    tmay said:
    While the iPhone 11's might be missing 5G, and I'm fine with that for now, they do have an innovation in UWB;

    https://sixcolors.com/post/2019/09/the-u1-chip-in-the-iphone-11-is-the-beginning-of-an-ultra-wideband-revolution/

    As for the "look" of the Camera matrix on the Pro Max, I see function, and that's what I'm buying. I expect that we will grow attached to the "look".
    Exactly. And how often does a user gaze at the back of their phone? I dunno. Maybe some confused Android boys do. 
    After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant.

    Why do you think Apple offers a swathe of colours and now a matte textured finish?

    Looks count and it doesn't matter which platform you are on.
    You were one of those that was constantly pushing "ugly" for the iPhone 11 Pro early renders, due to the square camera "bump" that Apple wisely chose not to hide.

    Looks can only take you so far, but iPhone 11 Pro's imaging proves that function rules.
    You need revise what you think I said.



    Here is a refresher for you:

    "That's an ugly render. The block would be centred at the very least (if they go for a block format). A lineal format only gives two main options, of which the vertical alignment looks better IMO. I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/208902/early-render-suggests-2019s-iphone-xi-could-have-triple-lens-rear-camera/p2


    "At first, and depending on the render, I wasn't sure if I liked the camera placement setup. Over time I've reached the conclusion that something seems wrong. It seems lopsided. There was talk of making them less visible in the final product. I hope that's the case."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210613/iphone-xi-and-iphone-xi-max-case-manufacturing-dummies-pop-up-on-chinese-social-media/p1

    "The very first rumour and render of this design left me unconvinced but definitely not hating it. Subsequent renders have seen me swing away from the look, especially the renders in this article which look awful but now I see the renders you have posted and once again I'm back at square one.

    If that is the true idea and position, we are going to have to wait for leaks nearer the release date to gauge how it looks"

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210690/renders-of-2019-iphone-depict-square-camera-bump-as-part-of-rear-glass/p2

    Those comments are very fair while based on rumours and far from 'constantly pushing ugly'. If this had been an Android phone I can guarantee you that some here laughing their socks off. 

    Yes, IMO they are ugly (now the phones have been released). Very ugly if you prefer but it isn't only me who thinks that.

    As for only being able to take looks so far that is stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further.

    "I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    Apple didn't use the vertical triple camera arrangement because it was optically inferior for computational imaging. They didn't use the layouts that all or most of the other triple camera phones have which is laid out in an "L" configuration, because again, they are optically inferior for computational imaging. This will be proven by a hoard of reviewers starting this weekend.

    Apple certainly did maintain the position of its cameras that it has had since the iPhone 1. All those things are about purpose, not "stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further".

    Why would Apple need to take it further, when even you state that "After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant".

    You wanted to push a meme, over and over again, that the bump was ugly and would put buyers off, and you failed, big time.


    We were talking about looks, remember?

    As for why Apple did this, have they actually said that?

    Not that it even matters. The problem isn't the array but where it is. Do you think Huawei's imaging division hadn't considered their design options for computational photograghy?

    The bump is ugly and although you don't want accept it, design plays an important part in phone sales, hence the colour options and textured finish, but I said that earlier.

    There is no meme. I quoted myself. You are literally making things up.

    I have no idea how you already know what reviewers will say about them. Do you also know what reviewers will say about the Pixel 4 and Mate 30 Pro?
    You talk of design as if it is only cosmetic. I talk of design as function, which is why it is called Industrial Design.

    I acknowledge that aesthetics plays an important role in a finished product, but can't imagine trading off functionality for at best a small gain in aesthetics, which is what most Android OS device makers do.

    As for your comment, "the problem isn't the array, but where it is". Actually, Apple seriously considered placement, years ago, and hasn't changed it since the iPhone 1, unlike the huge number of variations of both array and placement that Huawei has had for its various models of dual and triple camera array's, best summed up by a "throwing it against the wall and seeing what sticks" design philosophy.

    Good news for Huawei! Now they and the other Android OS device makers can tear down the iPhone 11 and actually find out what an optimized optical system looks like.

    As for what the reviewers will say, 

    "In terms of the combination of software and hardware and ecology, Apple is still invincible."



    Pretty telling coming from a Samsung guy...

    "The most attractive technology of the iPhone 11 Pro is: Deep fusion, the neural engine directly outputs images, and produces detailed photos, which is the real intelligence of the smartphone."



    and:

    "Samsung is also developing the “Deep Fusion”function similar to the iPhone 11 Pro, and really plays the role of the NPU in taking pictures and videos. We can look forward to the Galaxy S11."



    Oh, and A13 crushes, Kirin 990, yet again, and it's the A13 performance that makes "Deep Fusion" possible.

    Ice Universe isn't reviewing anything. He's rehashing the keynote!

    Deep Fusion (multiple exposures + plus AI) is what Huawei has been doing since it introduced Night Mode, two years ago!

    Most important areas are the sensor itself and the ISPs. The computational part gets thrown in there too. The Kirin 990 is really a Kirin 985 (990 is really a last-minute marketing upgrade). As for 'crushing' I will remind you that the A13 crushes the A12 too. Really isn't relevant as A12 users aren't really seeing the speed advantages over Android flagships. In many areas those Android phones are actually faster than iPhones at everyday actions like opening apps. Speed stopped being an issue years ago. What has moved smartphones forward has been other areas. It is only with the 2019 iPhones that those other areas took a step up.

    What was 'crushing' other chipsets on CPU performance going to give users if they never used it and competitors don't even have performance issues anyway? Don't you think they would have preferred what the iPhone 11 will bring? You know, things competitors have had for years like class leading low light performance, better zoom, better WiFi, better modem, better GPS tracking...

    I think they'd gladly exchange 'speed' they hardly ever use for those features.

    Oh, the Kirin 990 will crush the A13 on 5G, right? And on the subject of SoC ISP, the Kirin 990 has Huawei's 5th generation dual ISPs drawing from new image sensors and as you quoted Ice Universe, here he is again:



    When people start saying 'this crushes that' it only shows the writer misses the point.

    The A13 isn't the key ingredient for Deep Fusion, the neural engine is.

    What do you know about the NPU on the Kirin 990 and what it can do? Nothing? Next to nothing?

    And 'ugly' obviously is about aesthetics - not function!
    You probably need to go to the video of the event and watch the segment on the A13 so you can understand how the A13 operates;



    SEGMENT BEGINS AT 1 HR 12 MINUTE

    In Apple's A13 architecture, the CPU with Machine Learning Accelerators for Matrix Math, GPU, and Neural Engine are all driven by the Machine Learning Controller.

    This is not like your Kirin.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 39
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,305member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Folio said:
    tmay said:
    While the iPhone 11's might be missing 5G, and I'm fine with that for now, they do have an innovation in UWB;

    https://sixcolors.com/post/2019/09/the-u1-chip-in-the-iphone-11-is-the-beginning-of-an-ultra-wideband-revolution/

    As for the "look" of the Camera matrix on the Pro Max, I see function, and that's what I'm buying. I expect that we will grow attached to the "look".
    Exactly. And how often does a user gaze at the back of their phone? I dunno. Maybe some confused Android boys do. 
    After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant.

    Why do you think Apple offers a swathe of colours and now a matte textured finish?

    Looks count and it doesn't matter which platform you are on.
    You were one of those that was constantly pushing "ugly" for the iPhone 11 Pro early renders, due to the square camera "bump" that Apple wisely chose not to hide.

    Looks can only take you so far, but iPhone 11 Pro's imaging proves that function rules.
    You need revise what you think I said.



    Here is a refresher for you:

    "That's an ugly render. The block would be centred at the very least (if they go for a block format). A lineal format only gives two main options, of which the vertical alignment looks better IMO. I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/208902/early-render-suggests-2019s-iphone-xi-could-have-triple-lens-rear-camera/p2


    "At first, and depending on the render, I wasn't sure if I liked the camera placement setup. Over time I've reached the conclusion that something seems wrong. It seems lopsided. There was talk of making them less visible in the final product. I hope that's the case."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210613/iphone-xi-and-iphone-xi-max-case-manufacturing-dummies-pop-up-on-chinese-social-media/p1

    "The very first rumour and render of this design left me unconvinced but definitely not hating it. Subsequent renders have seen me swing away from the look, especially the renders in this article which look awful but now I see the renders you have posted and once again I'm back at square one.

    If that is the true idea and position, we are going to have to wait for leaks nearer the release date to gauge how it looks"

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210690/renders-of-2019-iphone-depict-square-camera-bump-as-part-of-rear-glass/p2

    Those comments are very fair while based on rumours and far from 'constantly pushing ugly'. If this had been an Android phone I can guarantee you that some here laughing their socks off. 

    Yes, IMO they are ugly (now the phones have been released). Very ugly if you prefer but it isn't only me who thinks that.

    As for only being able to take looks so far that is stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further.

    "I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    Apple didn't use the vertical triple camera arrangement because it was optically inferior for computational imaging. They didn't use the layouts that all or most of the other triple camera phones have which is laid out in an "L" configuration, because again, they are optically inferior for computational imaging. This will be proven by a hoard of reviewers starting this weekend.

    Apple certainly did maintain the position of its cameras that it has had since the iPhone 1. All those things are about purpose, not "stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further".

    Why would Apple need to take it further, when even you state that "After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant".

    You wanted to push a meme, over and over again, that the bump was ugly and would put buyers off, and you failed, big time.


    We were talking about looks, remember?

    As for why Apple did this, have they actually said that?

    Not that it even matters. The problem isn't the array but where it is. Do you think Huawei's imaging division hadn't considered their design options for computational photograghy?

    The bump is ugly and although you don't want accept it, design plays an important part in phone sales, hence the colour options and textured finish, but I said that earlier.

    There is no meme. I quoted myself. You are literally making things up.

    I have no idea how you already know what reviewers will say about them. Do you also know what reviewers will say about the Pixel 4 and Mate 30 Pro?
    You talk of design as if it is only cosmetic. I talk of design as function, which is why it is called Industrial Design.

    I acknowledge that aesthetics plays an important role in a finished product, but can't imagine trading off functionality for at best a small gain in aesthetics, which is what most Android OS device makers do.

    As for your comment, "the problem isn't the array, but where it is". Actually, Apple seriously considered placement, years ago, and hasn't changed it since the iPhone 1, unlike the huge number of variations of both array and placement that Huawei has had for its various models of dual and triple camera array's, best summed up by a "throwing it against the wall and seeing what sticks" design philosophy.

    Good news for Huawei! Now they and the other Android OS device makers can tear down the iPhone 11 and actually find out what an optimized optical system looks like.

    As for what the reviewers will say, 

    "In terms of the combination of software and hardware and ecology, Apple is still invincible."



    Pretty telling coming from a Samsung guy...

    "The most attractive technology of the iPhone 11 Pro is: Deep fusion, the neural engine directly outputs images, and produces detailed photos, which is the real intelligence of the smartphone."



    and:

    "Samsung is also developing the “Deep Fusion”function similar to the iPhone 11 Pro, and really plays the role of the NPU in taking pictures and videos. We can look forward to the Galaxy S11."



    Oh, and A13 crushes, Kirin 990, yet again, and it's the A13 performance that makes "Deep Fusion" possible.

    Ice Universe isn't reviewing anything. He's rehashing the keynote!

    Deep Fusion (multiple exposures + plus AI) is what Huawei has been doing since it introduced Night Mode, two years ago!

    Most important areas are the sensor itself and the ISPs. The computational part gets thrown in there too. The Kirin 990 is really a Kirin 985 (990 is really a last-minute marketing upgrade). As for 'crushing' I will remind you that the A13 crushes the A12 too. Really isn't relevant as A12 users aren't really seeing the speed advantages over Android flagships. In many areas those Android phones are actually faster than iPhones at everyday actions like opening apps. Speed stopped being an issue years ago. What has moved smartphones forward has been other areas. It is only with the 2019 iPhones that those other areas took a step up.

    What was 'crushing' other chipsets on CPU performance going to give users if they never used it and competitors don't even have performance issues anyway? Don't you think they would have preferred what the iPhone 11 will bring? You know, things competitors have had for years like class leading low light performance, better zoom, better WiFi, better modem, better GPS tracking...

    I think they'd gladly exchange 'speed' they hardly ever use for those features.

    Oh, the Kirin 990 will crush the A13 on 5G, right? And on the subject of SoC ISP, the Kirin 990 has Huawei's 5th generation dual ISPs drawing from new image sensors and as you quoted Ice Universe, here he is again:



    When people start saying 'this crushes that' it only shows the writer misses the point.

    The A13 isn't the key ingredient for Deep Fusion, the neural engine is.

    What do you know about the NPU on the Kirin 990 and what it can do? Nothing? Next to nothing?

    And 'ugly' obviously is about aesthetics - not function!
    You probably need to go to the video of the event and watch the segment on the A13 so you can understand how the A13 operates;



    SEGMENT BEGINS AT 1 HR 12 MINUTE

    In Apple's A13 architecture, the CPU with Machine Learning Accelerators for Matrix Math, GPU, and Neural Engine are all driven by the Machine Learning Controller.

    This is not like your Kirin.
    You are right. It's not my Kirin but that is irrelevant. What do you know about it to make your claims, though? You didn't answer.

    When I answer your claims, you simply move onto another point as if your earlier ones never existed. 

    Here is a little curiosity from the keynote. Some people here insist specs don't matter for Apple but don't you find it jarring that that the key takeaways were all specs? Some people here insist that shell design doesn't matter for Apple either but now we not only have more colours but a matte textured finish too.

    So we have Apple proclaiming the fastest CPU on a smartphone along with the fastest GPU on a smartphone. Let me be clear that I have no issue with this. I find it completely normal (along with proclaiming the first in whatever field) but clearly those people making those claims in the name of Apple were wrong.

    Now for the curiosity and believe me I don't have the answer. Why did they limit themselves to just 'faster neural engine' and not the 'fastest neural engine' in a smartphone?

    I think the 2019/20 lineup is Apple's strongest in three years and in those three years they have largely followed through on the elements I have criticised. There are still issues but they aren't as critical now as they once were. Number one was price and value, and excepting the iPhone Pro they have filled the middle ground with decent offerings at far better pricing. During the year I expect this second tier of phones (iPhone 11 and below) to be the stars.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 37 of 39
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,984member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Folio said:
    tmay said:
    While the iPhone 11's might be missing 5G, and I'm fine with that for now, they do have an innovation in UWB;

    https://sixcolors.com/post/2019/09/the-u1-chip-in-the-iphone-11-is-the-beginning-of-an-ultra-wideband-revolution/

    As for the "look" of the Camera matrix on the Pro Max, I see function, and that's what I'm buying. I expect that we will grow attached to the "look".
    Exactly. And how often does a user gaze at the back of their phone? I dunno. Maybe some confused Android boys do. 
    After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant.

    Why do you think Apple offers a swathe of colours and now a matte textured finish?

    Looks count and it doesn't matter which platform you are on.
    You were one of those that was constantly pushing "ugly" for the iPhone 11 Pro early renders, due to the square camera "bump" that Apple wisely chose not to hide.

    Looks can only take you so far, but iPhone 11 Pro's imaging proves that function rules.
    You need revise what you think I said.



    Here is a refresher for you:

    "That's an ugly render. The block would be centred at the very least (if they go for a block format). A lineal format only gives two main options, of which the vertical alignment looks better IMO. I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/208902/early-render-suggests-2019s-iphone-xi-could-have-triple-lens-rear-camera/p2


    "At first, and depending on the render, I wasn't sure if I liked the camera placement setup. Over time I've reached the conclusion that something seems wrong. It seems lopsided. There was talk of making them less visible in the final product. I hope that's the case."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210613/iphone-xi-and-iphone-xi-max-case-manufacturing-dummies-pop-up-on-chinese-social-media/p1

    "The very first rumour and render of this design left me unconvinced but definitely not hating it. Subsequent renders have seen me swing away from the look, especially the renders in this article which look awful but now I see the renders you have posted and once again I'm back at square one.

    If that is the true idea and position, we are going to have to wait for leaks nearer the release date to gauge how it looks"

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210690/renders-of-2019-iphone-depict-square-camera-bump-as-part-of-rear-glass/p2

    Those comments are very fair while based on rumours and far from 'constantly pushing ugly'. If this had been an Android phone I can guarantee you that some here laughing their socks off. 

    Yes, IMO they are ugly (now the phones have been released). Very ugly if you prefer but it isn't only me who thinks that.

    As for only being able to take looks so far that is stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further.

    "I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    Apple didn't use the vertical triple camera arrangement because it was optically inferior for computational imaging. They didn't use the layouts that all or most of the other triple camera phones have which is laid out in an "L" configuration, because again, they are optically inferior for computational imaging. This will be proven by a hoard of reviewers starting this weekend.

    Apple certainly did maintain the position of its cameras that it has had since the iPhone 1. All those things are about purpose, not "stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further".

    Why would Apple need to take it further, when even you state that "After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant".

    You wanted to push a meme, over and over again, that the bump was ugly and would put buyers off, and you failed, big time.


    We were talking about looks, remember?

    As for why Apple did this, have they actually said that?

    Not that it even matters. The problem isn't the array but where it is. Do you think Huawei's imaging division hadn't considered their design options for computational photograghy?

    The bump is ugly and although you don't want accept it, design plays an important part in phone sales, hence the colour options and textured finish, but I said that earlier.

    There is no meme. I quoted myself. You are literally making things up.

    I have no idea how you already know what reviewers will say about them. Do you also know what reviewers will say about the Pixel 4 and Mate 30 Pro?
    You talk of design as if it is only cosmetic. I talk of design as function, which is why it is called Industrial Design.

    I acknowledge that aesthetics plays an important role in a finished product, but can't imagine trading off functionality for at best a small gain in aesthetics, which is what most Android OS device makers do.

    As for your comment, "the problem isn't the array, but where it is". Actually, Apple seriously considered placement, years ago, and hasn't changed it since the iPhone 1, unlike the huge number of variations of both array and placement that Huawei has had for its various models of dual and triple camera array's, best summed up by a "throwing it against the wall and seeing what sticks" design philosophy.

    Good news for Huawei! Now they and the other Android OS device makers can tear down the iPhone 11 and actually find out what an optimized optical system looks like.

    As for what the reviewers will say, 

    "In terms of the combination of software and hardware and ecology, Apple is still invincible."



    Pretty telling coming from a Samsung guy...

    "The most attractive technology of the iPhone 11 Pro is: Deep fusion, the neural engine directly outputs images, and produces detailed photos, which is the real intelligence of the smartphone."



    and:

    "Samsung is also developing the “Deep Fusion”function similar to the iPhone 11 Pro, and really plays the role of the NPU in taking pictures and videos. We can look forward to the Galaxy S11."



    Oh, and A13 crushes, Kirin 990, yet again, and it's the A13 performance that makes "Deep Fusion" possible.

    Ice Universe isn't reviewing anything. He's rehashing the keynote!

    Deep Fusion (multiple exposures + plus AI) is what Huawei has been doing since it introduced Night Mode, two years ago!

    Most important areas are the sensor itself and the ISPs. The computational part gets thrown in there too. The Kirin 990 is really a Kirin 985 (990 is really a last-minute marketing upgrade). As for 'crushing' I will remind you that the A13 crushes the A12 too. Really isn't relevant as A12 users aren't really seeing the speed advantages over Android flagships. In many areas those Android phones are actually faster than iPhones at everyday actions like opening apps. Speed stopped being an issue years ago. What has moved smartphones forward has been other areas. It is only with the 2019 iPhones that those other areas took a step up.

    What was 'crushing' other chipsets on CPU performance going to give users if they never used it and competitors don't even have performance issues anyway? Don't you think they would have preferred what the iPhone 11 will bring? You know, things competitors have had for years like class leading low light performance, better zoom, better WiFi, better modem, better GPS tracking...

    I think they'd gladly exchange 'speed' they hardly ever use for those features.

    Oh, the Kirin 990 will crush the A13 on 5G, right? And on the subject of SoC ISP, the Kirin 990 has Huawei's 5th generation dual ISPs drawing from new image sensors and as you quoted Ice Universe, here he is again:



    When people start saying 'this crushes that' it only shows the writer misses the point.

    The A13 isn't the key ingredient for Deep Fusion, the neural engine is.

    What do you know about the NPU on the Kirin 990 and what it can do? Nothing? Next to nothing?

    And 'ugly' obviously is about aesthetics - not function!
    You probably need to go to the video of the event and watch the segment on the A13 so you can understand how the A13 operates;



    SEGMENT BEGINS AT 1 HR 12 MINUTE

    In Apple's A13 architecture, the CPU with Machine Learning Accelerators for Matrix Math, GPU, and Neural Engine are all driven by the Machine Learning Controller.

    This is not like your Kirin.
    You are right. It's not my Kirin but that is irrelevant. What do you know about it to make your claims, though? You didn't answer.

    When I answer your claims, you simply move onto another point as if your earlier ones never existed. 

    Here is a little curiosity from the keynote. Some people here insist specs don't matter for Apple but don't you find it jarring that that the key takeaways were all specs? Some people here insist that shell design doesn't matter for Apple either but now we not only have more colours but a matte textured finish too.

    So we have Apple proclaiming the fastest CPU on a smartphone along with the fastest GPU on a smartphone. Let me be clear that I have no issue with this. I find it completely normal (along with proclaiming the first in whatever field) but clearly those people making those claims in the name of Apple were wrong.

    Now for the curiosity and believe me I don't have the answer. Why did they limit themselves to just 'faster neural engine' and not the 'fastest neural engine' in a smartphone?

    I think the 2019/20 lineup is Apple's strongest in three years and in those three years they have largely followed through on the elements I have criticised. There are still issues but they aren't as critical now as they once were. Number one was price and value, and excepting the iPhone Pro they have filled the middle ground with decent offerings at far better pricing. During the year I expect this second tier of phones (iPhone 11 and below) to be the stars.
    "Now for the curiosity and believe me I don't have the answer. Why did they limit themselves to just 'faster neural engine' and not the 'fastest neural engine' in a smartphone?"

    Seriously? You just watched a 4 minute segment of "specs" out of an hour and 46 minutes of event, and you didn't get your answer?

    "CPU, GPU, and Neural Engine are all optimized for different types of Machine Learning workload"

    In other words, the Neural Engine isn't doing all of the Machine Learning workload. I don't know how the A13 compares with other SOC's for Machine Learning, but I'm pretty sure that Apple is no slouch in this.

    Oh, and for the record, the iPhone 11 is of the first tier of iPhones, and beyond that there is only the XR, 8, and 8 Plus. For that, the iPhones 11 will compose something on the order of 70% of total iPhone sales for the year, and at an ASP exceeding $700.
    edited September 17 watto_cobra
  • Reply 38 of 39
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,305member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Folio said:
    tmay said:
    While the iPhone 11's might be missing 5G, and I'm fine with that for now, they do have an innovation in UWB;

    https://sixcolors.com/post/2019/09/the-u1-chip-in-the-iphone-11-is-the-beginning-of-an-ultra-wideband-revolution/

    As for the "look" of the Camera matrix on the Pro Max, I see function, and that's what I'm buying. I expect that we will grow attached to the "look".
    Exactly. And how often does a user gaze at the back of their phone? I dunno. Maybe some confused Android boys do. 
    After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant.

    Why do you think Apple offers a swathe of colours and now a matte textured finish?

    Looks count and it doesn't matter which platform you are on.
    You were one of those that was constantly pushing "ugly" for the iPhone 11 Pro early renders, due to the square camera "bump" that Apple wisely chose not to hide.

    Looks can only take you so far, but iPhone 11 Pro's imaging proves that function rules.
    You need revise what you think I said.



    Here is a refresher for you:

    "That's an ugly render. The block would be centred at the very least (if they go for a block format). A lineal format only gives two main options, of which the vertical alignment looks better IMO. I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/208902/early-render-suggests-2019s-iphone-xi-could-have-triple-lens-rear-camera/p2


    "At first, and depending on the render, I wasn't sure if I liked the camera placement setup. Over time I've reached the conclusion that something seems wrong. It seems lopsided. There was talk of making them less visible in the final product. I hope that's the case."

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210613/iphone-xi-and-iphone-xi-max-case-manufacturing-dummies-pop-up-on-chinese-social-media/p1

    "The very first rumour and render of this design left me unconvinced but definitely not hating it. Subsequent renders have seen me swing away from the look, especially the renders in this article which look awful but now I see the renders you have posted and once again I'm back at square one.

    If that is the true idea and position, we are going to have to wait for leaks nearer the release date to gauge how it looks"

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/210690/renders-of-2019-iphone-depict-square-camera-bump-as-part-of-rear-glass/p2

    Those comments are very fair while based on rumours and far from 'constantly pushing ugly'. If this had been an Android phone I can guarantee you that some here laughing their socks off. 

    Yes, IMO they are ugly (now the phones have been released). Very ugly if you prefer but it isn't only me who thinks that.

    As for only being able to take looks so far that is stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further.

    "I think the P20 Pro nailed the vertical tri camera arrangement (especially as the brand name 'Huawei' could be aligned with the cameras). Difficult to see Apple moving the logo, though."

    Apple didn't use the vertical triple camera arrangement because it was optically inferior for computational imaging. They didn't use the layouts that all or most of the other triple camera phones have which is laid out in an "L" configuration, because again, they are optically inferior for computational imaging. This will be proven by a hoard of reviewers starting this weekend.

    Apple certainly did maintain the position of its cameras that it has had since the iPhone 1. All those things are about purpose, not "stating the obvious but Apple had room to take these looks further".

    Why would Apple need to take it further, when even you state that "After purchase, few people will gaze at the back of their phones if they are in cases. That, however, is irrelevant".

    You wanted to push a meme, over and over again, that the bump was ugly and would put buyers off, and you failed, big time.


    We were talking about looks, remember?

    As for why Apple did this, have they actually said that?

    Not that it even matters. The problem isn't the array but where it is. Do you think Huawei's imaging division hadn't considered their design options for computational photograghy?

    The bump is ugly and although you don't want accept it, design plays an important part in phone sales, hence the colour options and textured finish, but I said that earlier.

    There is no meme. I quoted myself. You are literally making things up.

    I have no idea how you already know what reviewers will say about them. Do you also know what reviewers will say about the Pixel 4 and Mate 30 Pro?
    You talk of design as if it is only cosmetic. I talk of design as function, which is why it is called Industrial Design.

    I acknowledge that aesthetics plays an important role in a finished product, but can't imagine trading off functionality for at best a small gain in aesthetics, which is what most Android OS device makers do.

    As for your comment, "the problem isn't the array, but where it is". Actually, Apple seriously considered placement, years ago, and hasn't changed it since the iPhone 1, unlike the huge number of variations of both array and placement that Huawei has had for its various models of dual and triple camera array's, best summed up by a "throwing it against the wall and seeing what sticks" design philosophy.

    Good news for Huawei! Now they and the other Android OS device makers can tear down the iPhone 11 and actually find out what an optimized optical system looks like.

    As for what the reviewers will say, 

    "In terms of the combination of software and hardware and ecology, Apple is still invincible."



    Pretty telling coming from a Samsung guy...

    "The most attractive technology of the iPhone 11 Pro is: Deep fusion, the neural engine directly outputs images, and produces detailed photos, which is the real intelligence of the smartphone."



    and:

    "Samsung is also developing the “Deep Fusion”function similar to the iPhone 11 Pro, and really plays the role of the NPU in taking pictures and videos. We can look forward to the Galaxy S11."



    Oh, and A13 crushes, Kirin 990, yet again, and it's the A13 performance that makes "Deep Fusion" possible.

    Ice Universe isn't reviewing anything. He's rehashing the keynote!

    Deep Fusion (multiple exposures + plus AI) is what Huawei has been doing since it introduced Night Mode, two years ago!

    Most important areas are the sensor itself and the ISPs. The computational part gets thrown in there too. The Kirin 990 is really a Kirin 985 (990 is really a last-minute marketing upgrade). As for 'crushing' I will remind you that the A13 crushes the A12 too. Really isn't relevant as A12 users aren't really seeing the speed advantages over Android flagships. In many areas those Android phones are actually faster than iPhones at everyday actions like opening apps. Speed stopped being an issue years ago. What has moved smartphones forward has been other areas. It is only with the 2019 iPhones that those other areas took a step up.

    What was 'crushing' other chipsets on CPU performance going to give users if they never used it and competitors don't even have performance issues anyway? Don't you think they would have preferred what the iPhone 11 will bring? You know, things competitors have had for years like class leading low light performance, better zoom, better WiFi, better modem, better GPS tracking...

    I think they'd gladly exchange 'speed' they hardly ever use for those features.

    Oh, the Kirin 990 will crush the A13 on 5G, right? And on the subject of SoC ISP, the Kirin 990 has Huawei's 5th generation dual ISPs drawing from new image sensors and as you quoted Ice Universe, here he is again:



    When people start saying 'this crushes that' it only shows the writer misses the point.

    The A13 isn't the key ingredient for Deep Fusion, the neural engine is.

    What do you know about the NPU on the Kirin 990 and what it can do? Nothing? Next to nothing?

    And 'ugly' obviously is about aesthetics - not function!
    You probably need to go to the video of the event and watch the segment on the A13 so you can understand how the A13 operates;



    SEGMENT BEGINS AT 1 HR 12 MINUTE

    In Apple's A13 architecture, the CPU with Machine Learning Accelerators for Matrix Math, GPU, and Neural Engine are all driven by the Machine Learning Controller.

    This is not like your Kirin.
    You are right. It's not my Kirin but that is irrelevant. What do you know about it to make your claims, though? You didn't answer.

    When I answer your claims, you simply move onto another point as if your earlier ones never existed. 

    Here is a little curiosity from the keynote. Some people here insist specs don't matter for Apple but don't you find it jarring that that the key takeaways were all specs? Some people here insist that shell design doesn't matter for Apple either but now we not only have more colours but a matte textured finish too.

    So we have Apple proclaiming the fastest CPU on a smartphone along with the fastest GPU on a smartphone. Let me be clear that I have no issue with this. I find it completely normal (along with proclaiming the first in whatever field) but clearly those people making those claims in the name of Apple were wrong.

    Now for the curiosity and believe me I don't have the answer. Why did they limit themselves to just 'faster neural engine' and not the 'fastest neural engine' in a smartphone?

    I think the 2019/20 lineup is Apple's strongest in three years and in those three years they have largely followed through on the elements I have criticised. There are still issues but they aren't as critical now as they once were. Number one was price and value, and excepting the iPhone Pro they have filled the middle ground with decent offerings at far better pricing. During the year I expect this second tier of phones (iPhone 11 and below) to be the stars.
    "Now for the curiosity and believe me I don't have the answer. Why did they limit themselves to just 'faster neural engine' and not the 'fastest neural engine' in a smartphone?"

    Seriously? You just watched a 4 minute segment of "specs" out of an hour and 46 minutes of event, and you didn't get your answer?

    "CPU, GPU, and Neural Engine are all optimized for different types of Machine Learning workload"

    In other words, the Neural Engine isn't doing all of the Machine Learning workload. I don't know how the A13 compares with other SOC's for Machine Learning, but I'm pretty sure that Apple is no slouch in this.

    Oh, and for the record, the iPhone 11 is of the first tier of iPhones, and beyond that there is only the XR, 8, and 8 Plus. For that, the iPhones 11 will compose something on the order of 70% of total iPhone sales for the year, and at an ASP exceeding $700.
    I was speaking from a presentation (marketing) perspective. Nota technical perspective. That is why it was a simple curiosity.
  • Reply 39 of 39
    Iterative improvement is innovation. This stuff doesn’t re-engineer itself, the 20% processing gains at 4 hours less energy consumption is the definition of innovation. Sorry, no new Triangle Phone shell design.  

    $400 for my X is an amazing trade-in. Better than gazelle and ebay. That makes my X only $600, over two years interest free. Only a fool would argue against that. (Can you even imagine a cheap chinese knockoff reselling for this via a trade-in!? Nope). 

    Carry on, Apple, carry on. 
    This is very true.  That camera system is going to be amazing and the extra hours of battery life is nothing to sneeze at.  I'll probably wait a little while as I have an XS Max, but if I start seeing some photos that have that "wow" factor I'll be purchasing!
    watto_cobra
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