How do regressions like this keep happening so often?
Because of incompetence. Cook needs to go. He lacks the ability to manage good teams and good products. The more resources you give him, the more problems he’ll create. That’s the very definition of incompetence.
Aah sure Cook is to blame, nothing went wrong when Steve ran Apple, never.
Honestly, Mail has been a thorn in Apple's side it seems like every release of macOS, even under the wonderful and perfect Steve Jobs.
I am starting to get really angry with updates that are not properly vetted causing problems. It was the reason I abandoned PC s and have been loyal for decades. But I run a multimillion dollar company and such basic failures indicate an ongoing lack of discipline and laziness. Your products are nearly all less reliable which limits your clientele’s competitive ability. By wasting out time on a plethora of issues you refuse to address. I would humbly suggest you take one of those billions you have parked overseas and begin to address software and cloud issues to meet the growing costs and damages in wasted time. Because the public is going to wonder why you don’t. At some point They will just start buying cheaper and you guys will be done. That would be a tragedy but you wouldn’t be the first. Make your customers happy. Its digital world now. Heck some my Mac are in museum now. Your quality is suffering and if I can figure it out so can the rest of the public we pay more quality and reliability. Once we feel you no longer deliver you are done.
I've had the header but no content issue prior to Catalina with one of my mailboxes, I actually think it might have started with Sierra, but I definitely have it with Mojave. I found that by clicking forward on the message, the forwarding window that popped up made the message info display.
I switched to a different email client after finding a completely broken mail search in Catalina. I rebuilt the index and tried some stuff in terminal without success.
Very poor quality, Catalina. I’m reading about a lot of issues with this OS. They should have delayed the release.
Interesting reading all the comments. I guess I am one of the lucky ones. I was able to upgrade with no issues at all. Took a few days for everything to settle down. But the ship is sailing well. I checked a bunch of mail boxes, some dating over 10 years, all the mail looked good to me.
How do regressions like this keep happening so often?
Because of incompetence. Cook needs to go. He lacks the ability to manage good teams and good products. The more resources you give him, the more problems he’ll create. That’s the very definition of incompetence.
Sure, because under Jobs there were no bugs /s
Under Jobs, things were NOT this consistently bad. From bad design choices to constant regressions (and years of those going unfixed). Things ARE worse now.
How do regressions like this keep happening so often?
Because of incompetence. Cook needs to go. He lacks the ability to manage good teams and good products. The more resources you give him, the more problems he’ll create. That’s the very definition of incompetence.
Aah sure Cook is to blame, nothing went wrong when Steve ran Apple, never.
Honestly, Mail has been a thorn in Apple's side it seems like every release of macOS, even under the wonderful and perfect Steve Jobs.
I agree. I’ve had many issues with Mail and mail servers. Like mice, Apple just don’t seem to be able or willing to do this right.
Apple also seem unwilling or unable to get Safari text edit views to behave correctly.
Still, I didn’t find and suffer nearly as many bugs during Jobs’ tenure as I do today. Today’s Apple is all about the Wall Street religion, not the product. The product is more hype than completion.
The negative hype around Vista was blown way out of proportion to actual issues. To this day, I find the behavior of Windows 10 with regard to a crashing GPU to be inferior to Vista’s behavior. Windows 10 will halt and reboot. Vista would simply restart the graphics subsystem.
These and other such issues aren't so much an issue of management incompetence as they are an illustration of how complex both system software and individual computer configurations have become. Does anyone really think that Apple doesn't bother to test new systems, or that they just blow off bug reports?
We should also remember that all system upgrades now undergo extensive public betas, yet bugs, sometime important ones, still get through. Should we blame the beta users for also "failing" to uncover those bugs?
On this particular issue, I have emails stored in Mail that go back well over a decade, and as far as I can tell they all made it through the Catalina transition. But even if they hadn't, before upgrading I made a complete bootable backup of my Mojave internal drive to a 1TB USB-3 external SSD. And I'll be hanging onto that for quite a while, just to be careful.
Both my active email accounts are IMAP, so to a large extent they can be recovered/rebuilt from their respective mailservers.
Both my active email accounts are IMAP, so to a large extent they can be recovered/rebuilt from their respective mailservers.
If I'm reading reports correctly, this is one of the big issues--the corrupted messages are getting synced back to the server via IMAP, so that's actually a liability not a defense. Once the problem messages get synced, they go bad on ALL devices syncing from that IMAP server.
This makes sense if its not just a problem reading things on disk, but actual corruption--Mail looks at its local (bad) copy, looks at the server, sees that they are different and that its version is "newer" than what's on the server, so it pushes the changes to the server.
We should also remember that all system upgrades now undergo extensive public betas, yet bugs, sometime important ones, still get through. Should we blame the beta users for also "failing" to uncover those bugs?
I'm not in the camp of overreacting or threatening to switch to Windows or something, and as usual it is not and has never been (since way back) a good idea to upgrade a critical production system to a new OS on day one, but (accurate or not) there are claims that this bug was reported during the Betas. If so, and if it is not one of those super-rare things that only affects like 5 people (which does not seem to be the case), Apple should have held up the GM until they fixed it, since data loss bugs, particularly those that propagate to cloud sync services, are so bad.
On one hand, people screaming that the sky is falling seem to forget that there were massive, severe bugs in many MacOS releases of long ago. I remember well the outcry over 10.7, and 10.8, and 10.10, and how most people claimed OSX wasn't even usable until 10.2, and how the entire fileserver was virtually unusable in a cross-platform production environment between 10.7 or 10.8 and around 10.10 or 10.11, and there have been severe new bugs at release of just about every version of OSX with the probable exception of 10.6.
On the other, this is very bad, and if it was reported in the Betas should not have been released in the GM version. I've upgraded at least one of my home Macs within a day or so of release day ("Eh, I've got a backup") to every single version of OSX from the public beta through 10.14. I'm holding off on 10.15 because I use Mail.app and I simply can't afford to have it sync bad emails to two different work IMAP servers.
How do regressions like this keep happening so often?
Because of incompetence. Cook needs to go. He lacks the ability to manage good teams and good products. The more resources you give him, the more problems he’ll create. That’s the very definition of incompetence.
Sure, because under Jobs there were no bugs /s
He's right though. Cook needs to go around to every software engineer and inspect their work. That's what a good CEO would do. The fact he has left high profile people "leave" means nothing at all apparently.......
Cook bashing has started to feel like when Doctor Who fans want showrunners to leave.
Once again we’re reminded why it’s a bad idea to ‘upgrade’ right away to a x.0 release instead of waiting for x.1
Bugs are to be expected, but it’s not unreasonable to expect core applications like Mail to be largely big free and certainly not to have bugs that result in data loss. This is a pretty big and glaring issue, even if it doesn’t affect everyone.
Given the difficulty downgrading back to Mojave, the only other options would seem to be limiting yourself to web mail or switching to another mail client.
Apple has discontinued Time Capsule and pushed out a calendar scheduled macOS that permanently deletes email records - does it get more basic than that...?
This is a troubling bug which I experienced first hand when I was beta testing High Sierra. As Apple didn't warn beta testers that they could lose emails that would also be erased from Yahoo servers, I realized only too late what had happened. Unfortunately, by that time, I had also erased my Time Machine backup to reclaim enough space to make a fresh backup with Time Machine.
I learned my lesson the hard way and I no longer do any beta testing for Apple.
Hi,
I think this OS is bunch of trouble, after updating i lost my data on SSD and have no idea how to find or recover. Please help me anyone if have same issue and get resolved.
Thanks
This is a troubling bug which I experienced first hand when I was beta testing High Sierra. As Apple didn't warn beta testers that they could lose emails that would also be erased from Yahoo servers, I realized only too late what had happened. Unfortunately, by that time, I had also erased my Time Machine backup to reclaim enough space to make a fresh backup with Time Machine.
I learned my lesson the hard way and I no longer do any beta testing for Apple.
First, did you report the bug to Apple? Having a bit like this in a beta version is understandable, but knowing about it and not fixing it before final release is not.
Second, uncovering bugs is the whole point of beta testing. Apple (and every other company) never claims beta versions to be big free and I’m pretty sure you have to agree to this when you download it. I’m sorry for your data loss, but If that risk isn’t acceptable, you shouldn’t install beta versions of software.
I filed a bug on this. Months ago.
Where this is most obvious, though, is "On My Mac" mail. If you ever launch Mail in Catalina and get the "Mail Message Import" screen -- you are more than likely to have some (most?) of your "On My Mac" mail just outright deleted when the "import" is done. A *manual" File --> Import Mailboxes is not the problem -- it's when Mail determines the "Envelope Index" is messed up (or missing) and forces a reimport.
I have tested this with a number of different "On My Mac" mail stores -- one folder started with 200,000 .emlx files. After the reimport, there were 40,000 left (80% data loss). This one was inexcusable considering how long ago I filed the bug and provided example mailboxes showing the problem (one with 1000 .emlx files goes down to *7* after the reimport.
Note that a "rebuild" of a mailbox just pulls mail down again from your IMAP server so I never saw this issue on any IMAP mailboxes at all.
How do regressions like this keep happening so often?
Because of incompetence. Cook needs to go. He lacks the ability to manage good teams and good products. The more resources you give him, the more problems he’ll create. That’s the very definition of incompetence.
Sure, because under Jobs there were no bugs /s
Not as many as now. Apple has become a joke under Cook.
Comments
Honestly, Mail has been a thorn in Apple's side it seems like every release of macOS, even under the wonderful and perfect Steve Jobs.
I would humbly suggest you take one of those billions you have parked overseas and begin to address software and cloud issues to meet the growing costs and damages in wasted time. Because the public is going to wonder why you don’t. At some point They will just start buying cheaper and you guys will be done. That would be a tragedy but you wouldn’t be the first. Make your customers happy. Its digital world now. Heck some my Mac are in museum now. Your quality is suffering and if I can figure it out so can the rest of the public we pay more quality and reliability. Once we feel you no longer deliver you are done.
I found that by clicking forward on the message, the forwarding window that popped up made the message info display.
Apple also seem unwilling or unable to get Safari text edit views to behave correctly.
Still, I didn’t find and suffer nearly as many bugs during Jobs’ tenure as I do today. Today’s Apple is all about the Wall Street religion, not the product. The product is more hype than completion.
We should also remember that all system upgrades now undergo extensive public betas, yet bugs, sometime important ones, still get through. Should we blame the beta users for also "failing" to uncover those bugs?
On this particular issue, I have emails stored in Mail that go back well over a decade, and as far as I can tell they all made it through the Catalina transition. But even if they hadn't, before upgrading I made a complete bootable backup of my Mojave internal drive to a 1TB USB-3 external SSD. And I'll be hanging onto that for quite a while, just to be careful.
Both my active email accounts are IMAP, so to a large extent they can be recovered/rebuilt from their respective mailservers.
This makes sense if its not just a problem reading things on disk, but actual corruption--Mail looks at its local (bad) copy, looks at the server, sees that they are different and that its version is "newer" than what's on the server, so it pushes the changes to the server.
This is why I haven't upgraded yet.
I'm not in the camp of overreacting or threatening to switch to Windows or something, and as usual it is not and has never been (since way back) a good idea to upgrade a critical production system to a new OS on day one, but (accurate or not) there are claims that this bug was reported during the Betas. If so, and if it is not one of those super-rare things that only affects like 5 people (which does not seem to be the case), Apple should have held up the GM until they fixed it, since data loss bugs, particularly those that propagate to cloud sync services, are so bad.
On one hand, people screaming that the sky is falling seem to forget that there were massive, severe bugs in many MacOS releases of long ago. I remember well the outcry over 10.7, and 10.8, and 10.10, and how most people claimed OSX wasn't even usable until 10.2, and how the entire fileserver was virtually unusable in a cross-platform production environment between 10.7 or 10.8 and around 10.10 or 10.11, and there have been severe new bugs at release of just about every version of OSX with the probable exception of 10.6.
On the other, this is very bad, and if it was reported in the Betas should not have been released in the GM version. I've upgraded at least one of my home Macs within a day or so of release day ("Eh, I've got a backup") to every single version of OSX from the public beta through 10.14. I'm holding off on 10.15 because I use Mail.app and I simply can't afford to have it sync bad emails to two different work IMAP servers.
Second, uncovering bugs is the whole point of beta testing. Apple (and every other company) never claims beta versions to be big free and I’m pretty sure you have to agree to this when you download it. I’m sorry for your data loss, but If that risk isn’t acceptable, you shouldn’t install beta versions of software.