"It was the lack of any modern manufacturing culture, including the schools and apprenticeships needed to train specialized mechanical engineers. " I continue to say that this is the biggest problem and liability corporate American and the United States in general has. Because too much emphasis is placed on generalized testing, pushing students to worthless degrees like MBAs and JDs, and not enough emphasis is placed on teaching students starting in kindergarten how to use their hands and brains to build things is what's causing the USA to fall behind other countries in manufacturing. Americans are lazy and want an easy desk job without getting their hands dirty. Schools need to bring back the arts as well as vocational education. There's nothing wrong with being a plumber, contractor or laborer, except in the minds of lazy people who were never taught how to use a hammer, saw or even a paint roller. I can't see someone wanting to become an engineer is they've never been given the chance to play with toys they've made instead of simply watching TV or exercising their thumbs on their phones. Parents needs to introduce their kids to building things instead of simply buying prebuilt toys. I started out building my toys, learned how to work on a car, basically taught myself electronics and computerized systems (I'm older so we didn't have the classes kids have now) and was taught woodworking by my grandfather, which I really enjoy.
Before everyone blames Apple for going to China to have things built, look in the mirror and ask yourself whether you have the ability or desire to do it. For many on this forum the answer will be yes but ask your family and friends the same question and I bet the answers will overwhelmingly be NO.
A big part of the trouble is that the apprenticeships that built trained, experienced, professional level skilled workers have been replaced with trade schools pumping out unskilled or semi-skilled workers with a certificate. Those semi-skilled workers end up getting hired by an MBA who knows about running the the finances of the business, but not the business of the business.
Being a plumber for instance means knowing more than which end of a wrench to hold -- and it also involves knowing how and being willing to use a shovel.
Despite all the Trumpian hoopla, American industry remains dead and has no realistic prospect of arising from its grave. Successful industry requires investment: -- Instead of investing in the infrastructure required by industry our government is mostly concerned about cutting taxes and spending. The last real infrastructure was the interstate system from 50-60 years ago -- which, ironically ended up taking down our vital railroad system. -- American businesses are more focused on providing share buybacks and dividends than investing in, growing and developing the business. -- The American public education system fell behind that of Asia long ago. And, higher education has become a business focused on profit more than education. The result is that American workers have been divided into 2 classes: One is mostly unskilled and the other over-educated in things that don't help produce anything.
Basically: -- Government stopped investing in the country -- Businesses stopped investing in themselves -- The work force is ineffective but overpaid.
Until America ends its false pride and bravado and addresses its core problems, Apple is right in using the system that can do the job.
"Journalists like to talk about how Huawei has 5G and Apple doesn't, but they don't often understand that Huawei's 5G silicon is limited to operating on sub-6 GHz frequencies, which can't deliver the astoundingly fast data speeds associated with mmWave 5G being built out in the U.S. Of course, Huawei also can't really operate in the U.S. at all. And Apple is aligned with Qualcomm for its initial 5G modems, which would be "real 5G," but whatever, who cares, right? Huawei "has" 5G. And because it isn't Apple, Huawei a media darling even if it is interwoven with the political structure driving China."
Huawei's technology can fully support mmWave.
The reason they don't implement it today and worldwide is that no networks are really using it except for the U.S. where Huawei is banned. As of H1 2019, 30 countries had auctioned parts of the spectrum. Only five of them included mmWave and those five cases (U.S included) will only see mmWave in areas with a very high density of users.
It's pretty simple to understand this. The press definitely does understand it.
Samsung is in a similar situation with its 5G modems.
Huawei (and others) can still deploy ultra fast connections using non-mmWave 5G.
I have seen estimations of mmWave hitting high percentage coverage (worldwide) around 2022/23. It is considerably more expensive and difficult to deploy mmWave and the cost is not seen by the user so lower frequency 5G is what many operators have chosen to allow them to start recouping outlay immediately. mmWave will simply be rolled into the mix at a later date.
"Real 5G"?
What is being rolled out now is real 5G. What makes you think it isn't?
The claim itself (even when presented between inverted commas) shows a lack of understanding of how 5G is planned to work. 5G is a mix of technologies and implementations running across different frequency bands.
mmWave will become a key part of 5G worldwide at a later date.
This is not dissimilar to how 4G progressed to 4.5G.
Some regions are still figuring out how to auction off the frequencies. Until that happens, not a lot can be done with the ultra high frequency range.
Journalists can talk about 'how Huawei has 5G and Apple hasn't', because that is exactly what it is.
Huawei has it because it was involved in designing the technology and the standards that govern it it. Some estimate that Huawei is around 18-24 months ahead of rival 5G infrastructure providers.
Apple is 'aligned with Qualcomm' because its options (and some strategic decisions) basically left it with no real alternative. Even when it isn't aligned with Qualcomm at some future date, it will still be paying Qualcomm, Huawei and others for use of their patents.
And Huawei is hardly a media darling. It receives a lot a flak. Some is warranted but a lot of it isn't.
Currently building things in China is not so cheap anymore. Wages are much higher now and working hours and conditions are much better. Still no right to join a union or the right to strike which is a basic human rights violation, but alas. So most advantages are gone and to build something in China or in the USA is not clear cut anymore. Its maybe 15 to 25% cheaper to build in China for preferred companies like Apple, but at breakeven for anyone else. Not having the skilled workforce or supply chain or whatever in the USA is a complete misconception: ever seen Orange County or read “ Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance”?
Currently building things in China is not so cheap anymore. Wages are much higher now and working hours and conditions are much better. Still no right to join a union or the right to strike which is a basic human rights violation, but alas. So most advantages are gone and to build something in China or in the USA is not clear cut anymore. Its maybe 15 to 25% cheaper to build in China for preferred companies like Apple, but at breakeven for anyone else. Not having the skilled workforce or supply chain or whatever in the USA is a complete misconception: ever seen Orange County or read “ Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance”?
Oh, that - and having a skilled workforce and an industrial base -- is so 70's...
Currently building things in China is not so cheap anymore. Wages are much higher now and working hours and conditions are much better. Still no right to join a union or the right to strike which is a basic human rights violation, but alas. So most advantages are gone and to build something in China or in the USA is not clear cut anymore. Its maybe 15 to 25% cheaper to build in China for preferred companies like Apple, but at breakeven for anyone else. Not having the skilled workforce or supply chain or whatever in the USA is a complete misconception: ever seen Orange County or read “ Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance”?
Oh, that - and having a skilled workforce and an industrial base -- is so 70's...
"It was the lack of any modern manufacturing culture, including the schools and apprenticeships needed to train specialized mechanical engineers. " I continue to say that this is the biggest problem and liability corporate American and the United States in general has. Because too much emphasis is placed on generalized testing, pushing students to worthless degrees like MBAs and JDs, and not enough emphasis is placed on teaching students starting in kindergarten how to use their hands and brains to build things is what's causing the USA to fall behind other countries in manufacturing. Americans are lazy and want an easy desk job without getting their hands dirty. Schools need to bring back the arts as well as vocational education. There's nothing wrong with being a plumber, contractor or laborer, except in the minds of lazy people who were never taught how to use a hammer, saw or even a paint roller. I can't see someone wanting to become an engineer is they've never been given the chance to play with toys they've made instead of simply watching TV or exercising their thumbs on their phones. Parents needs to introduce their kids to building things instead of simply buying prebuilt toys. I started out building my toys, learned how to work on a car, basically taught myself electronics and computerized systems (I'm older so we didn't have the classes kids have now) and was taught woodworking by my grandfather, which I really enjoy.
Before everyone blames Apple for going to China to have things built, look in the mirror and ask yourself whether you have the ability or desire to do it. For many on this forum the answer will be yes but ask your family and friends the same question and I bet the answers will overwhelmingly be NO.
I agree completely. Only, I think the real question is can it currently be done in the USA and in a competitive way. And the answer is yes, as Musks Tesla mega factories demonstrate. When you don't try the answer is always no. Skill sets can rapidly be generated, for example by hands-on training at the workplace and special learn/work classes. In general industry complains about the level and type of education and the answer is do it (educate) yourself. With great result as is shown in Teslas case. How do you think China got is ‘skilled workforce’, this is a military style operation, factory's select the people actually already being able to do the tasks at hand. This is possible because they can choose from millions of people. So no education is involved at all ...
"It was the lack of any modern manufacturing culture, including the schools and apprenticeships needed to train specialized mechanical engineers. " I continue to say that this is the biggest problem and liability corporate American and the United States in general has. Because too much emphasis is placed on generalized testing, pushing students to worthless degrees like MBAs and JDs, and not enough emphasis is placed on teaching students starting in kindergarten how to use their hands and brains to build things is what's causing the USA to fall behind other countries in manufacturing. Americans are lazy and want an easy desk job without getting their hands dirty. Schools need to bring back the arts as well as vocational education. There's nothing wrong with being a plumber, contractor or laborer, except in the minds of lazy people who were never taught how to use a hammer, saw or even a paint roller. I can't see someone wanting to become an engineer is they've never been given the chance to play with toys they've made instead of simply watching TV or exercising their thumbs on their phones. Parents needs to introduce their kids to building things instead of simply buying prebuilt toys. I started out building my toys, learned how to work on a car, basically taught myself electronics and computerized systems (I'm older so we didn't have the classes kids have now) and was taught woodworking by my grandfather, which I really enjoy.
Before everyone blames Apple for going to China to have things built, look in the mirror and ask yourself whether you have the ability or desire to do it. For many on this forum the answer will be yes but ask your family and friends the same question and I bet the answers will overwhelmingly be NO.
I agree completely. Only, I think the real question is can it currently be done in the USA and in a competitive way. And the answer is yes, as Musks Tesla mega factories demonstrate. When you don't try the answer is always no. Skill sets can rapidly be generated, for example by hands-on training at the workplace and special learn/work classes. In general industry complains about the level and type of education and the answer is do it (educate) yourself. With great result as is shown in Teslas case. How do you think China got is ‘skilled workforce’, this is a military style operation, factory's select the people actually already being able to do the tasks at hand. This is possible because they can choose from millions of people. So no education is involved at all ...
That is quite obviously true. But still, obstacles remain. One is the 'tomato syndrome' (nobody wants to pick tomatoes). Another is education (we graduated generations of workers from our schools who could barely read). Another is corporate greed (where they do not want to divert money from their bonuses and buybacks to invest in their own workers), and another is the industrial infrastructure (the steel mills didn't stand by themselves, they had a network of satellite support operations). Another is the health of the workforce (too many are fat and sick from pizza, beer and BigMacs). Another is the switch to managed corporations owned by disinterested owners (Part of the cause of the Great Recession was investment banks had switched from partner owners running the business to remote stock holders putting their faith in managers who were mostly interested in their quarterly bonuses rather than growing the business).
Yes, it CAN be done. But Tesla may not be the best example: their ultra high selling prices can hide a lot of inefficiencies. And, even if all cars were made here that way, to be able to afford the cars they make the factories would need to be paying exorbitant salaries.
We have never really come to grips with WHY basic American industry died. Essentially, Japan came in with better, newer factories, better management and better workers and not even protective tariffs could protect American industry from the competition. Our answer to the superior competition was globalization (NAFTA, etc.) and competing with those things that we did best. Globalization wasn't the cause of the demise of American industry, it was the response. Instead of taking a good, hard look at ourselves and what we did wrong (and there were many things on all sides) we try to blame 'the other' (management blames the worker, the worker blames management and everybody blames the government) -- while continuing to believe we are the mightiest in the world. I think like any addict we will need to hit rock bottom before seeking to pull ourselves up to once again reach our full potential.
Added: When was the last time you heard of a major Chinese corporation being shut down with a strike -- and having to pay out billions in pension costs? And, even the settlement continues to shut down U.S. plants -- and then replace thousands of highly paid workers with hundreds of minimum wage (well, $15/hr) workers. It's a sign that the U.S. is simply adjusting to the fact that it cannot have its cake and eat it to.
"It was the lack of any modern manufacturing culture, including the schools and apprenticeships needed to train specialized mechanical engineers. " I continue to say that this is the biggest problem and liability corporate American and the United States in general has. Because too much emphasis is placed on generalized testing, pushing students to worthless degrees like MBAs and JDs, and not enough emphasis is placed on teaching students starting in kindergarten how to use their hands and brains to build things is what's causing the USA to fall behind other countries in manufacturing. Americans are lazy and want an easy desk job without getting their hands dirty. Schools need to bring back the arts as well as vocational education. There's nothing wrong with being a plumber, contractor or laborer, except in the minds of lazy people who were never taught how to use a hammer, saw or even a paint roller. I can't see someone wanting to become an engineer is they've never been given the chance to play with toys they've made instead of simply watching TV or exercising their thumbs on their phones. Parents needs to introduce their kids to building things instead of simply buying prebuilt toys. I started out building my toys, learned how to work on a car, basically taught myself electronics and computerized systems (I'm older so we didn't have the classes kids have now) and was taught woodworking by my grandfather, which I really enjoy.
Before everyone blames Apple for going to China to have things built, look in the mirror and ask yourself whether you have the ability or desire to do it. For many on this forum the answer will be yes but ask your family and friends the same question and I bet the answers will overwhelmingly be NO.
I agree completely. Only, I think the real question is can it currently be done in the USA and in a competitive way. And the answer is yes, as Musks Tesla mega factories demonstrate. When you don't try the answer is always no. Skill sets can rapidly be generated, for example by hands-on training at the workplace and special learn/work classes. In general industry complains about the level and type of education and the answer is do it (educate) yourself. With great result as is shown in Teslas case. How do you think China got is ‘skilled workforce’, this is a military style operation, factory's select the people actually already being able to do the tasks at hand. This is possible because they can choose from millions of people. So no education is involved at all ...
That is quite obviously true. But still, obstacles remain. One is the 'tomato syndrome' (nobody wants to pick tomatoes). Another is education (we graduated generations of workers from our schools who could barely read). Another is corporate greed (where they do not want to divert money from their bonuses and buybacks to invest in their own workers), and another is the industrial infrastructure (the steel mills didn't stand by themselves, they had a network of satellite support operations). Another is the health of the workforce (too many are fat and sick from pizza, beer and BigMacs). Another is the switch to managed corporations owned by disinterested owners (Part of the cause of the Great Recession was investment banks had switched from partner owners running the business to remote stock holders putting their faith in managers who were mostly interested in their quarterly bonuses rather than growing the business).
Yes, it CAN be done. But Tesla may not be the best example: their ultra high selling prices can hide a lot of inefficiencies. And, even if all cars were made here that way, to be able to afford the cars they make the factories would need to be paying exorbitant salaries.
We have never really come to grips with WHY basic American industry died. Essentially, Japan came in with better, newer factories, better management and better workers and not even protective tariffs could protect American industry from the competition. Our answer to the superior competition was globalization (NAFTA, etc.) and competing with those things that we did best. Globalization wasn't the cause of the demise of American industry, it was the response. Instead of taking a good, hard look at ourselves and what we did wrong (and there were many things on all sides) we try to blame 'the other' (management blames the worker, the worker blames management and everybody blames the government) -- while continuing to believe we are the mightiest in the world. I think like any addict we will need to hit rock bottom before seeking to pull ourselves up to once again reach our full potential.
Added: When was the last time you heard of a major Chinese corporation being shut down with a strike -- and having to pay out billions in pension costs? And, even the settlement continues to shut down U.S. plants -- and then replace thousands of highly paid workers with hundreds of minimum wage (well, $15/hr) workers. It's a sign that the U.S. is simply adjusting to the fact that it cannot have its cake and eat it to.
Chinese are not allowed to strike, this is a fundamental (human rights) violation. This answers your question I think. Still lots of cars (not counting Tesla) are produced within the USA and the defense industry builds lots of hardware exported to the rest of the world (like JSF etc.), so big industry isn't dead. I think I answered the question about education in my previous comment: industry can do it on an adhoc basis for the specific tasks. Higher education (including universities) is mostly overrated, because lots of very intelligent people have - and developed - the skills themselves. To get things done you need this kind of intelligent people combined with (probably as smart) self taught craftsman (welders etc.). Look at how Musk approaches this with SpaceX for example. Of course one key factor is to be able to motivate such skilled people for the task at hand. And this is I think one of the biggest problems the USA (and the rest of the world) has. Nothing is as demotivating as a manager culture, killing of all innovation.
Comments
Being a plumber for instance means knowing more than which end of a wrench to hold -- and it also involves knowing how and being willing to use a shovel.
-- Instead of investing in the infrastructure required by industry our government is mostly concerned about cutting taxes and spending. The last real infrastructure was the interstate system from 50-60 years ago -- which, ironically ended up taking down our vital railroad system.
-- American businesses are more focused on providing share buybacks and dividends than investing in, growing and developing the business.
-- The American public education system fell behind that of Asia long ago. And, higher education has become a business focused on profit more than education. The result is that American workers have been divided into 2 classes: One is mostly unskilled and the other over-educated in things that don't help produce anything.
Basically:
-- Government stopped investing in the country
-- Businesses stopped investing in themselves
-- The work force is ineffective but overpaid.
Until America ends its false pride and bravado and addresses its core problems, Apple is right in using the system that can do the job.
Huawei's technology can fully support mmWave.
The reason they don't implement it today and worldwide is that no networks are really using it except for the U.S. where Huawei is banned. As of H1 2019, 30 countries had auctioned parts of the spectrum. Only five of them included mmWave and those five cases (U.S included) will only see mmWave in areas with a very high density of users.
It's pretty simple to understand this. The press definitely does understand it.
Samsung is in a similar situation with its 5G modems.
Huawei (and others) can still deploy ultra fast connections using non-mmWave 5G.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/huawei-and-sunrise-co-build-5g-research-centre-in-switzerland/
I have seen estimations of mmWave hitting high percentage coverage (worldwide) around 2022/23. It is considerably more expensive and difficult to deploy mmWave and the cost is not seen by the user so lower frequency 5G is what many operators have chosen to allow them to start recouping outlay immediately. mmWave will simply be rolled into the mix at a later date.
"Real 5G"?
What is being rolled out now is real 5G. What makes you think it isn't?
The claim itself (even when presented between inverted commas) shows a lack of understanding of how 5G is planned to work. 5G is a mix of technologies and implementations running across different frequency bands.
mmWave will become a key part of 5G worldwide at a later date.
This is not dissimilar to how 4G progressed to 4.5G.
Some regions are still figuring out how to auction off the frequencies. Until that happens, not a lot can be done with the ultra high frequency range.
Journalists can talk about 'how Huawei has 5G and Apple hasn't', because that is exactly what it is.
Huawei has it because it was involved in designing the technology and the standards that govern it it. Some estimate that Huawei is around 18-24 months ahead of rival 5G infrastructure providers.
Apple is 'aligned with Qualcomm' because its options (and some strategic decisions) basically left it with no real alternative. Even when it isn't aligned with Qualcomm at some future date, it will still be paying Qualcomm, Huawei and others for use of their patents.
And Huawei is hardly a media darling. It receives a lot a flak. Some is warranted but a lot of it isn't.
https://www.huawei.com/en/press-events/news/2018/2/DectschTelckom-5G-High-mmWave-Technology
https://5g.co.uk/guides/5g-frequencies-in-the-uk-what-you-need-to-know/
So most advantages are gone and to build something in China or in the USA is not clear cut anymore.
Its maybe 15 to 25% cheaper to build in China for preferred companies like Apple, but at breakeven for anyone else.
Not having the skilled workforce or supply chain or whatever in the USA is a complete misconception: ever seen Orange County or read “ Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance”?
Only, I think the real question is can it currently be done in the USA and in a competitive way.
And the answer is yes, as Musks Tesla mega factories demonstrate.
When you don't try the answer is always no.
Skill sets can rapidly be generated, for example by hands-on training at the workplace and special learn/work classes.
In general industry complains about the level and type of education and the answer is do it (educate) yourself.
With great result as is shown in Teslas case.
How do you think China got is ‘skilled workforce’, this is a military style operation, factory's select the people actually already being able to do the tasks at hand. This is possible because they can choose from millions of people. So no education is involved at all ...
But still, obstacles remain. One is the 'tomato syndrome' (nobody wants to pick tomatoes). Another is education (we graduated generations of workers from our schools who could barely read). Another is corporate greed (where they do not want to divert money from their bonuses and buybacks to invest in their own workers), and another is the industrial infrastructure (the steel mills didn't stand by themselves, they had a network of satellite support operations). Another is the health of the workforce (too many are fat and sick from pizza, beer and BigMacs). Another is the switch to managed corporations owned by disinterested owners (Part of the cause of the Great Recession was investment banks had switched from partner owners running the business to remote stock holders putting their faith in managers who were mostly interested in their quarterly bonuses rather than growing the business).
Yes, it CAN be done.
But Tesla may not be the best example: their ultra high selling prices can hide a lot of inefficiencies. And, even if all cars were made here that way, to be able to afford the cars they make the factories would need to be paying exorbitant salaries.
We have never really come to grips with WHY basic American industry died. Essentially, Japan came in with better, newer factories, better management and better workers and not even protective tariffs could protect American industry from the competition. Our answer to the superior competition was globalization (NAFTA, etc.) and competing with those things that we did best. Globalization wasn't the cause of the demise of American industry, it was the response. Instead of taking a good, hard look at ourselves and what we did wrong (and there were many things on all sides) we try to blame 'the other' (management blames the worker, the worker blames management and everybody blames the government) -- while continuing to believe we are the mightiest in the world. I think like any addict we will need to hit rock bottom before seeking to pull ourselves up to once again reach our full potential.
Added: When was the last time you heard of a major Chinese corporation being shut down with a strike -- and having to pay out billions in pension costs? And, even the settlement continues to shut down U.S. plants -- and then replace thousands of highly paid workers with hundreds of minimum wage (well, $15/hr) workers. It's a sign that the U.S. is simply adjusting to the fact that it cannot have its cake and eat it to.
Still lots of cars (not counting Tesla) are produced within the USA and the defense industry builds lots of hardware exported to the rest of the world (like JSF etc.), so big industry isn't dead.
I think I answered the question about education in my previous comment: industry can do it on an adhoc basis for the specific tasks.
Higher education (including universities) is mostly overrated, because lots of very intelligent people have - and developed - the skills themselves. To get things done you need this kind of intelligent people combined with (probably as smart) self taught craftsman (welders etc.).
Look at how Musk approaches this with SpaceX for example.
Of course one key factor is to be able to motivate such skilled people for the task at hand.
And this is I think one of the biggest problems the USA (and the rest of the world) has.
Nothing is as demotivating as a manager culture, killing of all innovation.