Unfortunately, the Mac Pro has a distinct issue on its value curve. It's a horrible value system at its base price, that quickly ramps in value as the price becomes astronomical.
At its 6000 USD base price tag, the computer is a joke. The base Xeon it has was about 1200 bucks (on release). It was blessed with 240 dollars of ECC RAM (on release). It had a nice, airflow-centric case to be sure. Good cases that are solid steel/aluminum are, often, 200-300 USD. Even if we counted the Mac Pro's case as a 500 dollar case, and counted its M.2 storage in the default model as 240 dollars, we'd still be sitting at 3000 dollars for the system. The Radeon 580 is a naught 200 dollar card (even on release).
That means you're paying effectively ~ 3000 dollars for a power supply and motherboard. Which is kinda nuts. I mean the power supply itself is about 200 bucks at most (actually less) and the fans can't be more than 100 bucks. So you're buying a, albeit ultra bleeding edge, motherboard for 2700 USD, which is highway robbery.
Yes, the special component of the Mac Pro isn't the CPU or the GPU (although the Mac Pro can top out with sky-high Xeons and absolutely monstrous Arcturus-precursor dual Vega 2s), it's the motherboard. The base system doesn't ship with any of that super hardware though. Yes, the motherboard accommodates 1.5 TB of ECC RAM. Yes it has the ability to run almost a dozen bus lanes for TB 3. Yes, it accommodates both power via the port and via adapter for gpus. Yes the Pro Vega 2 is a beast of a card, dwarfing the Radeon VII's already ludicrous 16 GB of HBM2. But you get NONE of that with a 6000 dollar base system.
With a 6000 dollar base system, you get an amazing motherboard, that might never be used. You get a low-end Xeon that is outperformed by most Core i9s (Xeon reliability is worth 800 dollars?!). You get a gpu that is budget by today's standards (the MacBook Pro's Vega gpu is about as fast as a 565-570 which itself is only 10-15% slower than the Mac Pro's 580...). And a bunch of super components like psus and the like that may never be used unless you upgrade them yourself down the line.
You could build a DIY computer with pretty much identical performance for less than 1500 dollars. No, I'm not kidding. Sure, it's not upgradeable with ECC RAM. Sure, it doesn't have 12 TB 3 lanes or 10 gigabit ether. No, it doesn't have a ridiculously overpowered psu for a system that draws under 300 Watts. But still, you're buying a system with such low specs all those upgradeable touches are pointless unless you spend thousands more upgrading the system anyways.
Sure, you can get a great high end Xeon and push the RAM to 1.5 TB. Yes, 2 Pro Vega 2s are absolutely nuts, with a max of 128 GB of HBM2 RAM. But that system costs 50k. The base system gets you NOTHING. And it's 6000 USD. For workflow alone, a computer 1/4 the price will do the job.
So yes, the Mac Pro may be a great machine at the high end but anyone that buys it in the low end better not convince themselves they're getting a super computer because it's a budget system, at most and they're paying between 4-10x as much for the privilege of the Apple emblem.
What you're describing is a recurring problem with well-architected products and solutions, i.e., products designed to support specific quality attributes such as modularity, modifiability, upgradability, performance scalability, etc. Everyone wants all of the values that a well-architected product or solution provides, but they don't want to pay for it when the base-level implementation is really a starting point for acquiring the potential value that the product's quality attributes can deliver. But just like potential energy, potential value is not realized until it is exploited to provide a benefit, which in the case of the Mac Pro is when you start exercising the potential by upgrading components, scaling up the performance, adding massive storage, etc. So yeah, you're paying for the architecture at the entry level but if you don't need the architecture or don't plan to exploit its attributes you may end up spending a lot more than you need to.
It usually comes down to making intelligent and informed decisions about what you're buying while taking into consideration the intended lifecycle of the product or solution. Too often people, teams, and organizations will make the wrong decision because they're applying short term considerations to longer term problems. Or vice versa. They'll look at the price of the architected solution, balk at the price in terms of their current budget, and cheap out on the purchase. A year later, or when the regime changes, they'll realize they didn't buy what they really needed for long term value and revisit the whole process and end up spending more in the long run and inciting churn. Of course it works the other way too. It's not an easy decision, but for people and organizations that apply sound economic justification for their purchases, taking into all factors like depreciation and salvage value, it SHOULD be a data-driven decision and not an emotional one. These are exactly the kinds of decisions that organizations make every day around all manner of personnel and capital expenditures from computers to upgrades of production machinery. I imagine many buyers of Mac Pros will apply these same sort of decisions.
But this is why I'm posting here. I think the camp that benefits from the Mac Pro is probably smaller than the camps positively and negatively affected by it. There are going to be haters that think that the system is overpriced at 50k, when it's packing 4 Vega 2 chipsets capable of pushing 60 teraflops of data compute. Conversely, you're always going to have the misinformed fanboys that work out of a mom and pop copy shop that think that they need a 7000 dollar budget system to do "pro" work when that system is inherently a *horrible*, *horrible* deal. As I said, this system isn't meant to be bought for less than 9-10k. If you buy it at base config, you don't need it and you're buying a bad system for your needs.
While I don’t expect this be selling the 100,000 plus numbers a year of this Mac Pro the way they did with the older Mac Pro cheese grater models, I’m willing to bet they’ll sell in the tens of thousands a year, and that not bad. Workstations don’t sell in very high numbers. But I think you’re selling this short. This is a very versatile machine, with a very sophisticated mobo. In fact, it’s the most sophisticated mobo I’ve seen, and I’ve seen a lot over the years. There’s more involved too, but I’m not really in the mood for a long post right now.
But I said that already. I said that the motherboard was what is special about this computer, at the start of this thread. It's certainly not the CPU, M.2 storage or the like. That can be had anywhere. The problems begin when people buy them for the wrong reasons. A base-level system is horrendously overpriced. The base Mac Pro ships with the same gpu as a 2017 iMac. So my point has been, if you have to spend 10k, plus, this might be worth your while. But if you don't intend to upgrade it immediately, *know that you're buying a budget system*. And that's just a fact.
Who knows, maybe they cut the prices. I love that motherboard. I do. But unless you plan on taking advantage of 12 TB 3 lanes and multiplexed giga ether, you're just not the target demographic for this machine. Large compute farms or development/render complexes are.
What I think is that you’re wasting your time, and everybody's time here mashing things up. Those of us who know what we need, know what we’re going to get, and why. Others can drool all they want, and that’s just fine. People do the same thing with cars.
this is also a hobby for a lot of people, and people spend a lot on their hobby, and that’s fine too. People buy Hasselblads and Leicas also. And they don’t need them. They aren’t worth the money you pay for them, but a lot of people like them. why bother trying to convince them otherwise? it’s the same thing here. We don’t all agree with your assessment either. Future upgradability is important to people, even if they don’t plan on doing it right away.
I think you’ve taken this conversation as far as it can go, and it’s time you let it go.
The interesting thing about this is when inflation is accounted for, this isn’t exceptionally expensive. My Quadra 950 from late 1992 had a base price of about $6,000. No video card, no CD player, no keyboard. The keyboard was about $300. The upgrade from the 160MB hdd to the much better 320MB cost another $300. It came with a lot of ram though—8MB, and 16 slots, which I filled for another $3,600. The 2x speed CD player I bought was about $600.
The NEC Multisync 21”monitor, I forget the model number, was $3,200. The Radius graphics card I bought (the computer used the CPU for graphics, with 1MB installed, and for 24 bit color, you could get another 1MB simm) cost around $3,750.
so let’s add those costs and translate into today’s dollars.
so, that would be around $15,000, back then. As of the end of 2018, the latest full year inflation numbers I can get, would be around $27,500. Even if you loaded it with the 1.5TB it could take, for $10,000, this model still falls somewhat short. And that’s mostly priced so high because of the RAM. More reasonable amounts would be a lot lower, allowing for a higher performance graphics card, etc.
the price isn’t so out of line with other models from other manufacturers when outfitted the same way. The difference is that Apple doesn’t offer a true bare bone version as others do. Look at BOXX pricing to get a good example.
but, I was going to buy one this year, and I’ve changed my mind. We are in a minor upheaval this year, because of the imminent changeover from PCIe 3, to PCIe 4. Workstation manufacturers have to make a decision as to what they’re going to do. Right now, we are in an in between state. That is, PCIe 4 is out, sort of, but not entirely. AMD has chips announced that are just about here for 4, and Intel has chips later this year for 4 as well. But neither are really “here” in a meaningful way. So all workstations are still 3. Other things are riding on this as well. Thunderbolt 4 is late, if it will even come out as Intel promised, when they said that within a decade of Thunderbolt’s release it would be at 100GB. But PCIe 3 has been here for about 7 years now, a long time. And it’s thought that another upgrade in Thunderbolt depends on PCIe 4. Then there is the faster usb, with more integration with Thunderbolt. Also M series SSDs will have the possibility of running up to 7.2GB/s under 4. 4 is now aimed at the SSD rather than the long term focus on the HDD. Graphics cards will need half the channels for the same throughput. New security features, and other major redesign has been done to get ready for 5, which is being worked on now, and may be finished in about a year.
so we can expect 3 to disappear during 2020, while 4 rushes in. Likely 4 will be around the more expected 3 years before 5 replaces it.
so, that’s why I’ve decided to wait until late next year. I expect to have this for about 5 years, unless some unexpected new technology turns up. If I were still working, I would get this, but as I’m not, for me, it pays to wait. In the meantime I’ll either buy a fully loaded iMac, or a moderately loaded iMac Pro, which I’ll then give to my daughter next year.
All excellent points. Good to hear from you on this. To me, the cost is as expected for what it is. As you say it is in fact historically right in line or better. I agree with everything you say about waiting but I am so damn bottlenecked by my I/O on the 2013 Mac Pro (and my MBP can transcode to H256 10 times faster) I have to make a move soon.
I get it. Like I said, if I were still in business, my credit card would already be on the counter. But I have the ability to wait, because while what I do still requires a workstation, I’m no longer doing it for profit.
It's common to hear that Apple's global sales -- at Average Selling Prices that are often several times that of its rivals -- are just a matter of the company being able to fool people into thinking that they need something that is wildly overpriced and should actually be half the cost, and really should have been delivered two years ago.
This paragraph describes the AI comment sections in spades. How often are we treated to screeds declaring Apple is just a marketing company? How often are Apple users labelled iSheep or Sheeple? How often do we slog through voluminous paragraphs issuing demands that Apple do this or that to survive?
Once again Dilger has hit a nerve.
For crying out loud, all I see are defensive posts like yours. Where are all the hostile anti-Apple posts in here? Were they removed before I got to the comment section? These preemptively defensive posts remind me of meat eaters preemptively bashing vegans on Bored Panda.
One person here got blasted for “2K+ anti-Apple posts”, and the poster doing the blasting had quoted a perfectly rational and reasonable comment as an example. [throws hands up in the air]
No, the Apple cult is NOT dead. Like the USA’s biggest religious group, the Apple cultists just seem to have decided to take the role of the oppressed, despite being the majority in all spaces where they post and complain about so-called anti-Apple commentary.
I’ve seen commentary critical of Apple, and it was legit, measured commentary. I’m one of the people who get targeted for making such criticisms. As for the claimed illogical and arbitrary hate, that’s not me and neither is it most of the minority of criticism expressed by a tiny minority of people here.
The defensiveness speaks volumes. The occasional jerky anti-Apple comment does not in any way justify this level of defensiveness, nor does the media attitude at large justify these extremely wordy and defensive editorials.
Well, to be fair, the anti Apple cult is a lot larger. And we do get a lot of it here.
’Will Apple have to brainwash the masses to buy it?’
No amount of Apple ‘brainwashing’ will get the ‘masses’ to buy the new Mac Pro. That’s because a) this machine is not intended for consumers and b) Apple’s target market is high end video and audio professionals that have OTP (other people’s money) to spend on such a system. Just like Ferrari’s and Lamborghini’s are not targeted to the masses, the Mac Pro is NOT the ‘people’s computer’ End of rant...
P.S. This doesn’t mean a few well-to-do consumers won’t break out their wallets ;-)
"Will Apple have to brainwash the masses to buy it?"
It's not a computer for the masses and no amount of brainwashing could change that.
At the same time it's gonna appeal to a certain segment of buyers who have needs for intense video processing or scientific applications, or a few who purchase it "just because it exists".
Won't stop the brain-dead iKnockoff users from claiming everyone who bought one was "brainwashed" somehow by Apple.
Remember that it's 5999 PLUS TAX and Apple Care. With those additions, that computer almost hits 7000. If you upgrade the RAM yourself and the storage (the measly 256 GB) yourself, you're looking at another 500 dollars MORE. And that's BEFORE you even look at a real graphics card. The Mac Pro's 580 is only 30% faster than the AMD APUs in higher level 3400Gs. 30% over integrated graphics isn't "powerful". So by the time you sink another 1000+ in a Vega 2 card, you're looking at least 8500 dollars (probably closer to 9000).
And even then, you could build a Mac with 90% that performance for a quarter of the price.
What a weird statement within a thread of your weird statements. It's bad enough that you state "PLUS TAX" at all but then you put it in all caps as if this is some hidden Apple Tax that no other vendor has to apply to a purchases.
People forget to consider taxes all the time. Are you seriously taking issue with this person reminding people that taxes are something to consider?
Would you also complain about someone pointing out that $5999 is just marketing speak for $6000? It’s a known fact that this is a manipulation of perception.
Forgetting the sales tax is a trap, too, even if it’s not a marketing decision (due to variable sales tax rates).
Sales tax has no place in this discussion, because as everyone here should know, it varies from 0% in some states to 10% in others.
but more importantly, if you are a professional, that’s is, someone who makes a large percentage of their income from their work with computers, that this is a capital expense, and has depreciation. So, if you know what you’re talking about, you would know that after three years, your tax relief on this will result in an appreciably lower cost, and thus, higher ROI.
yes, I agree that the base model is the lowest value version, as it always is with just about everything. It doesn’t matter. Not everyone views this the same way, and ultimate performance is not why some people buy something like this.
but, if you do video with FCP, Apple’s proprietary card for this, by itself, can make up for the high cost of the base model, if one gets it, and it should be available after the purchase of the Mac Pro.
Remember that it's 5999 PLUS TAX and Apple Care. With those additions, that computer almost hits 7000. If you upgrade the RAM yourself and the storage (the measly 256 GB) yourself, you're looking at another 500 dollars MORE. And that's BEFORE you even look at a real graphics card. The Mac Pro's 580 is only 30% faster than the AMD APUs in higher level 3400Gs. 30% over integrated graphics isn't "powerful". So by the time you sink another 1000+ in a Vega 2 card, you're looking at least 8500 dollars (probably closer to 9000).
And even then, you could build a Mac with 90% that performance for a quarter of the price.
What a weird statement within a thread of your weird statements. It's bad enough that you state "PLUS TAX" at all but then you put it in all caps as if this is some hidden Apple Tax that no other vendor has to apply to a purchases.
The numbers were all caps too.
But seriously adding up to 10% for state sales tax is often forgotten when considering high-dollar item costs.
Except, as I said in the post above, professionals pay less tax for the purchase, and 0 tax in the states that don’t charge any. So tax is a terrible thing to automatically add into a discussion. It’s not the EU with value added tax either.
and as I also mentioned, if you really are a Pro, there are other substantial tax benefits in buying major hardware for your business. And the more expensive the hardware, the more you get back, shrinking the differences between expensive hardware and less expensive hardware. This significantly affects the cost proposition, and renders some arguments null.
Remember that it's 5999 PLUS TAX and Apple Care. With those additions, that computer almost hits 7000. If you upgrade the RAM yourself and the storage (the measly 256 GB) yourself, you're looking at another 500 dollars MORE. And that's BEFORE you even look at a real graphics card. The Mac Pro's 580 is only 30% faster than the AMD APUs in higher level 3400Gs. 30% over integrated graphics isn't "powerful". So by the time you sink another 1000+ in a Vega 2 card, you're looking at least 8500 dollars (probably closer to 9000).
And even then, you could build a Mac with 90% that performance for a quarter of the price.
What a weird statement within a thread of your weird statements. It's bad enough that you state "PLUS TAX" at all but then you put it in all caps as if this is some hidden Apple Tax that no other vendor has to apply to a purchases.
The numbers were all caps too.
But seriously adding up to 10% for state sales tax is often forgotten when considering high-dollar item costs.
Except, as I said in the post above, professionals pay less tax for the purchase, and 0 tax in the states that don’t charge any. So tax is a terrible thing to automatically add into a discussion. It’s not the EU with value added tax either.
and as I also mentioned, if you really are a Pro, there are other substantial tax benefits in buying major hardware for your business. And the more expensive the hardware, the more you get back, shrinking the differences between expensive hardware and less expensive hardware. This significantly affects the cost proposition, and renders some arguments null.
Remember that it's 5999 PLUS TAX and Apple Care. With those additions, that computer almost hits 7000. If you upgrade the RAM yourself and the storage (the measly 256 GB) yourself, you're looking at another 500 dollars MORE. And that's BEFORE you even look at a real graphics card. The Mac Pro's 580 is only 30% faster than the AMD APUs in higher level 3400Gs. 30% over integrated graphics isn't "powerful". So by the time you sink another 1000+ in a Vega 2 card, you're looking at least 8500 dollars (probably closer to 9000).
And even then, you could build a Mac with 90% that performance for a quarter of the price.
What a weird statement within a thread of your weird statements. It's bad enough that you state "PLUS TAX" at all but then you put it in all caps as if this is some hidden Apple Tax that no other vendor has to apply to a purchases.
The numbers were all caps too.
But seriously adding up to 10% for state sales tax is often forgotten when considering high-dollar item costs.
Except, as I said in the post above, professionals pay less tax for the purchase, and 0 tax in the states that don’t charge any. So tax is a terrible thing to automatically add into a discussion. It’s not the EU with value added tax either.
and as I also mentioned, if you really are a Pro, there are other substantial tax benefits in buying major hardware for your business. And the more expensive the hardware, the more you get back, shrinking the differences between expensive hardware and less expensive hardware. This significantly affects the cost proposition, and renders some arguments null.
Well I am a professional user....
...so you’re saving all of those taxes, right? Depreciating your equipment, and taking advantage of everything a business can. It’s a pretty poor business person who doesn’t. I’m sure we can agree on that.
Remember that it's 5999 PLUS TAX and Apple Care. With those additions, that computer almost hits 7000. If you upgrade the RAM yourself and the storage (the measly 256 GB) yourself, you're looking at another 500 dollars MORE. And that's BEFORE you even look at a real graphics card. The Mac Pro's 580 is only 30% faster than the AMD APUs in higher level 3400Gs. 30% over integrated graphics isn't "powerful". So by the time you sink another 1000+ in a Vega 2 card, you're looking at least 8500 dollars (probably closer to 9000).
And even then, you could build a Mac with 90% that performance for a quarter of the price.
What a weird statement within a thread of your weird statements. It's bad enough that you state "PLUS TAX" at all but then you put it in all caps as if this is some hidden Apple Tax that no other vendor has to apply to a purchases.
The numbers were all caps too.
But seriously adding up to 10% for state sales tax is often forgotten when considering high-dollar item costs.
Except, as I said in the post above, professionals pay less tax for the purchase, and 0 tax in the states that don’t charge any. So tax is a terrible thing to automatically add into a discussion. It’s not the EU with value added tax either.
and as I also mentioned, if you really are a Pro, there are other substantial tax benefits in buying major hardware for your business. And the more expensive the hardware, the more you get back, shrinking the differences between expensive hardware and less expensive hardware. This significantly affects the cost proposition, and renders some arguments null.
Well I am a professional user....
...so you’re saving all of those taxes, right? Depreciating your equipment, and taking advantage of everything a business can. It’s a pretty poor business person who doesn’t. I’m sure we can agree on that.
Absolutely.
I'm sure we both are/were careful with the expenditures too. A couple years ago I decided on a less expensive laminator than a vendor was recommending to me, saving about $4500. The unit I chose has been bulletproof so far, and even a couple features on this one have gone largely unused. I simply didn't need to spend more money for a unit fit for purpose.
EDIT: In an unexpected case of beting better than the price would imply: I still have a cheap Chinese 5' wide unit that's 12 years+ old and still serviceable for quick runs or the odd rarely used laminate. I never expected it to last more than 5 or 6. Not everything Chinese no name is poor quality build apparently.
Remember that it's 5999 PLUS TAX and Apple Care. With those additions, that computer almost hits 7000. If you upgrade the RAM yourself and the storage (the measly 256 GB) yourself, you're looking at another 500 dollars MORE. And that's BEFORE you even look at a real graphics card. The Mac Pro's 580 is only 30% faster than the AMD APUs in higher level 3400Gs. 30% over integrated graphics isn't "powerful". So by the time you sink another 1000+ in a Vega 2 card, you're looking at least 8500 dollars (probably closer to 9000).
And even then, you could build a Mac with 90% that performance for a quarter of the price.
What a weird statement within a thread of your weird statements. It's bad enough that you state "PLUS TAX" at all but then you put it in all caps as if this is some hidden Apple Tax that no other vendor has to apply to a purchases.
The numbers were all caps too.
But seriously adding up to 10% for state sales tax is often forgotten when considering high-dollar item costs.
Except, as I said in the post above, professionals pay less tax for the purchase, and 0 tax in the states that don’t charge any. So tax is a terrible thing to automatically add into a discussion. It’s not the EU with value added tax either.
and as I also mentioned, if you really are a Pro, there are other substantial tax benefits in buying major hardware for your business. And the more expensive the hardware, the more you get back, shrinking the differences between expensive hardware and less expensive hardware. This significantly affects the cost proposition, and renders some arguments null.
Well I am a professional user....
...so you’re saving all of those taxes, right? Depreciating your equipment, and taking advantage of everything a business can. It’s a pretty poor business person who doesn’t. I’m sure we can agree on that.
Absolutely.
I'm sure we both are/were careful with the expenditures too. A couple years ago I decided on a less expensive laminator than a vendor was recommending to me, saving about $4500. The unit I chose has been bulletproof so far, and even a couple features on this one have gone largely unused. I simply didn't need to spend more money for a unit fit for purpose.
EDIT: In an unexpected case of beting better than the price would imply: I still have a cheap Chinese 5' wide unit that's 12 years+ old and still serviceable for quick runs or the odd rarely used laminate. I never expected it to last more than 5 or 6. Not everything Chinese no name is poor quality build apparently.
Good. My feeling is that a number of people who consider themselves to be professional are amateurs making some extra bucks. Nothing wrong with that, of course, I encourage it. But they don’t always understand the formality of a business, or how to take advantage of something the tax code may not allow them to take advantage of. Then they assume everybody is in their boat with them. It’s one reason we get some odd comments about pricing, taxes, etc.
I'm not trying to make it hard on anyone. But I am trying to clear things up so people know what they're getting into. Buyers remorse sucks. It would be a shame to spend 8k on a computer and find out that it competes unfavorably with a 5k iMac Pro.
Except that other in your own mind, it doesn’t.
? A base Mac Pro has a slower CPU than an iMac Pro. Fact. It has a slower GPU. Also fact. It has less storage. Also fact. I suppose people can delude themselves if they want. That won't change reality.
You don't want one we get it.
And you want to buy one and convince yourself that an 8 core 3 GHz Xeon married to 256 GB of storage and a 3-year midrange gpu is a "supercomputer". Go get one. I was just trying to help you. Just avoid spouting nonsense about how the iMac Pro is "old" and "slower" when it has a better cpu, gpu and more storage...by default, for about 40% less money and it comes with a 5k monitor.
I think you comment shows an issue Apple created because the lack of option with devices with internal expansion. The Mac Pro is a well designed machine, but $6K for the specs in the entry model is a little high. The Mac Pro chassis is designed to work with a maxed out configuration, but the entry model specs are very far from it, and you still have to pay for the design. With HP / Dell / Lenovo workstations you don't have the issue because they offer smaller options. You can configure a Z8 with a low end Xeon processors entry level Quadro adapters and a single drive, and it will be an expensive device because of the chassis and design of that model, that hold up to two Xeon processors (56 cores), 3TB of RAM and three NVidia Quadro / RTX adapters. If you go to a lower model, as the Z4, and configure it with similar specs, it will cost a lot less.
IMO, people that criticize the Mac Pro for being expensive is because they need something small and less capable than the Mac Pro, or with the limitations of the iMac Pro. If Apple created that low / mid range Mac Pro, many customers would be happy.
Dial it back a bit. Take a minute to review the commenting guidelines.
Hey Mike, perhaps there should be guidelines on Article headings too, you know, maybe not designed to attract trolls wanting to jump in and bash anyone who wants to buy a new Mac Pro such as "Will Apple's $6k+ Mac Pro require brainwash marketing to sell?" I mean come on guys didn't you expect sparks to fly?
Remember that it's 5999 PLUS TAX and Apple Care. With those additions, that computer almost hits 7000. If you upgrade the RAM yourself and the storage (the measly 256 GB) yourself, you're looking at another 500 dollars MORE. And that's BEFORE you even look at a real graphics card. The Mac Pro's 580 is only 30% faster than the AMD APUs in higher level 3400Gs. 30% over integrated graphics isn't "powerful". So by the time you sink another 1000+ in a Vega 2 card, you're looking at least 8500 dollars (probably closer to 9000).
And even then, you could build a Mac with 90% that performance for a quarter of the price.
What a weird statement within a thread of your weird statements. It's bad enough that you state "PLUS TAX" at all but then you put it in all caps as if this is some hidden Apple Tax that no other vendor has to apply to a purchases.
People forget to consider taxes all the time. Are you seriously taking issue with this person reminding people that taxes are something to consider?
Would you also complain about someone pointing out that $5999 is just marketing speak for $6000? It’s a known fact that this is a manipulation of perception.
Forgetting the sales tax is a trap, too, even if it’s not a marketing decision (due to variable sales tax rates).
They think I'm an Apple hater because I pointed out that the top end Mac Pro is awesome but the low end is a very poor buy and that it's targeted at high compute entities not prosumers. The prosumer product is the iMac Pro. I'm sitting on: 3 iMacs, my FrankenMac, 4 ipads, 2 iPhones, 2 ipods and my venerable Apple IIC (which still works) and Macbook Pro. But I've had my "Apple geek cred" pulled because I dared to compare hardware/price skus throughout Apple's lineup, or something.
Hey Madan, please stop - enough already!
We get it - the super computer high end spec'd Mac Pro is for people that really need it, not your average Joe (buying the base model), who might like to think he is doing quantum mechanics when he is only doing word processing. Thanks for the advice.
I don't think you are an apple-hater but I do think you are unnecessarily droning on and on.
Dial it back a bit. Take a minute to review the commenting guidelines.
Hey Mike, perhaps there should be guidelines on Article headings too, you know, maybe not designed to attract trolls wanting to jump in and bash anyone who wants to buy a new Mac Pro such as "Will Apple's $6k+ Mac Pro require brainwash marketing to sell?" I mean come on guys didn't you expect sparks to fly?
Sparks flying is acceptable. Manifestations of that disagreement beyond the allowable behavior is not.
Dial it back a bit. Take a minute to review the commenting guidelines.
Hey Mike, perhaps there should be guidelines on Article headings too, you know, maybe not designed to attract trolls wanting to jump in and bash anyone who wants to buy a new Mac Pro such as "Will Apple's $6k+ Mac Pro require brainwash marketing to sell?" I mean come on guys didn't you expect sparks to fly?
Article headings and perhaps some content too. My personal preference is for free speech so that anyone can read what silly things people can believe.
Dial it back a bit. Take a minute to review the commenting guidelines.
Hey Mike, perhaps there should be guidelines on Article headings too, you know, maybe not designed to attract trolls wanting to jump in and bash anyone who wants to buy a new Mac Pro such as "Will Apple's $6k+ Mac Pro require brainwash marketing to sell?" I mean come on guys didn't you expect sparks to fly?
Article headings and perhaps some content too. My personal preference is for free speech so that anyone can read what silly things people can believe.
Comments
I get it. Like I said, if I were still in business, my credit card would already be on the counter. But I have the ability to wait, because while what I do still requires a workstation, I’m no longer doing it for profit.
Well, to be fair, the anti Apple cult is a lot larger. And we do get a lot of it here.
No amount of Apple ‘brainwashing’ will get the ‘masses’ to buy the new Mac Pro. That’s because a) this machine is not intended for consumers and b) Apple’s target market is high end video and audio professionals that have OTP (other people’s money) to spend on such a system. Just like Ferrari’s and Lamborghini’s are not targeted to the masses, the Mac Pro is NOT the ‘people’s computer’ End of rant...
P.S. This doesn’t mean a few well-to-do consumers won’t break out their wallets ;-)
Won't stop the brain-dead iKnockoff users from claiming everyone who bought one was "brainwashed" somehow by Apple.
but more importantly, if you are a professional, that’s is, someone who makes a large percentage of their income from their work with computers, that this is a capital expense, and has depreciation. So, if you know what you’re talking about, you would know that after three years, your tax relief on this will result in an appreciably lower cost, and thus, higher ROI.
yes, I agree that the base model is the lowest value version, as it always is with just about everything. It doesn’t matter. Not everyone views this the same way, and ultimate performance is not why some people buy something like this.
but, if you do video with FCP, Apple’s proprietary card for this, by itself, can make up for the high cost of the base model, if one gets it, and it should be available after the purchase of the Mac Pro.
Apple prices have been dropping the past few years. It's the iKnockoff morons and anti-Apple media that repeat the "Apple is too expensive" meme.
and as I also mentioned, if you really are a Pro, there are other substantial tax benefits in buying major hardware for your business. And the more expensive the hardware, the more you get back, shrinking the differences between expensive hardware and less expensive hardware. This significantly affects the cost proposition, and renders some arguments null.
I'm sure we both are/were careful with the expenditures too. A couple years ago I decided on a less expensive laminator than a vendor was recommending to me, saving about $4500. The unit I chose has been bulletproof so far, and even a couple features on this one have gone largely unused. I simply didn't need to spend more money for a unit fit for purpose.
EDIT: In an unexpected case of beting better than the price would imply:
I still have a cheap Chinese 5' wide unit that's 12 years+ old and still serviceable for quick runs or the odd rarely used laminate. I never expected it to last more than 5 or 6. Not everything Chinese no name is poor quality build apparently.
With HP / Dell / Lenovo workstations you don't have the issue because they offer smaller options. You can configure a Z8 with a low end Xeon processors entry level Quadro adapters and a single drive, and it will be an expensive device because of the chassis and design of that model, that hold up to two Xeon processors (56 cores), 3TB of RAM and three NVidia Quadro / RTX adapters. If you go to a lower model, as the Z4, and configure it with similar specs, it will cost a lot less.
IMO, people that criticize the Mac Pro for being expensive is because they need something small and less capable than the Mac Pro, or with the limitations of the iMac Pro. If Apple created that low / mid range Mac Pro, many customers would be happy.
We get it - the super computer high end spec'd Mac Pro is for people that really need it, not your average Joe (buying the base model), who might like to think he is doing quantum mechanics when he is only doing word processing. Thanks for the advice.
I don't think you are an apple-hater but I do think you are unnecessarily droning on and on.